I love playing Aliens, but they seem so boring...
Morthis
Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168189Members
Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168189Members
I've only got about 20 hours of total playtime on NS2, and more hours that I probably want to know about in NS1. I much preferred to play aliens in NS1, usually as a support role (gorge or lerk with umbra for the onos/fades).
Maybe I'm not experienced enough with NS2 yet, but so far the aliens feels a lot more bland this time around. There's a couple of reasons I feel that way, I'll go over the ones that stand out to me.
Gorge: I still enjoy the lifeform a lot, it's very useful, but I still think they need some work. Mainly in the building department. I understand there's a commander now too, so that role is partially delegated to the com, but if someone wants to perma gorge, they'll end up with way too many resources because the only resource sink is hydras, and those aren't even terribly useful (I can't think of a single game where I thought they really had much of an impact on things). So when I play gorge, I'll end up with a ton of pres, at which point I feel I should go Onos for my team simply to spend the resources, but then if every person that enjoys playing support with gorges did this, you wouldn't have many gorges, since most players tend to avoid the support role.
Lifeform diversity: In NS1, it felt like all lifeforms had their role, even at the end game they all remained useful. In NS2 it feels like the only one that really impacts the game is Onos. Heck, we see Onos so early now it even loses some of it's "Oh crap it's an Onos" feeling. Obviously the two games are different, but NS1 just felt more gradual. You moved up in lifeforms, you used those, until you finally had the (hopefully) game ending Onos. In NS2 it feels like the only thing that matters is how fast aliens get Onos up, and none of the others matter terribly much.
Hives vs CC: Aliens are still more dependent on hives than marines are on CC. I guess that's a carry-over from 1. As Aliens, going from 2 hive to 1 hive sucks so much I honestly rather just see the game end right then and there most of the time. Losing the other hive is almost a given, it's just a matter of time. As marines, losing a second CC obviously isn't good, but it doesn't feel like marines just turned into complete crap to play, and they may be able to actually still do something (it's unlikely and the aliens need to screw up, but it feels possible, as aliens it doesn't really).
I dunno, could just be my lack of experience with the game, but that's what stood out to me so far.
Maybe I'm not experienced enough with NS2 yet, but so far the aliens feels a lot more bland this time around. There's a couple of reasons I feel that way, I'll go over the ones that stand out to me.
Gorge: I still enjoy the lifeform a lot, it's very useful, but I still think they need some work. Mainly in the building department. I understand there's a commander now too, so that role is partially delegated to the com, but if someone wants to perma gorge, they'll end up with way too many resources because the only resource sink is hydras, and those aren't even terribly useful (I can't think of a single game where I thought they really had much of an impact on things). So when I play gorge, I'll end up with a ton of pres, at which point I feel I should go Onos for my team simply to spend the resources, but then if every person that enjoys playing support with gorges did this, you wouldn't have many gorges, since most players tend to avoid the support role.
Lifeform diversity: In NS1, it felt like all lifeforms had their role, even at the end game they all remained useful. In NS2 it feels like the only one that really impacts the game is Onos. Heck, we see Onos so early now it even loses some of it's "Oh crap it's an Onos" feeling. Obviously the two games are different, but NS1 just felt more gradual. You moved up in lifeforms, you used those, until you finally had the (hopefully) game ending Onos. In NS2 it feels like the only thing that matters is how fast aliens get Onos up, and none of the others matter terribly much.
Hives vs CC: Aliens are still more dependent on hives than marines are on CC. I guess that's a carry-over from 1. As Aliens, going from 2 hive to 1 hive sucks so much I honestly rather just see the game end right then and there most of the time. Losing the other hive is almost a given, it's just a matter of time. As marines, losing a second CC obviously isn't good, but it doesn't feel like marines just turned into complete crap to play, and they may be able to actually still do something (it's unlikely and the aliens need to screw up, but it feels possible, as aliens it doesn't really).
I dunno, could just be my lack of experience with the game, but that's what stood out to me so far.
Comments
1) No pres from kills and no pres while dead, which encourages more passive play and generally games that play out the same way every time
2) Gorge feels very 1-dimensional compared to NS1
3) While NS1 Fade was too good, NS2 Fade is too weak
4) Most everything "new" on the Aliens is concentrated on 1 role: the Alien commander. The Aliens didn't get <i>any</i> new evolutions.
That is not the case for the marines, though. They have no long evolutions, start always at their most up to date fire power and don't lose any tech upgrades except for access to exo and jetpacks when they lose their second CC.
In a balanced world, at least level 3 marine upgrades would be tied to CCs as well, so they get actually weaker if pushed back.
The marines are supposed to be slower and ranged, but then they get phasegates and jetpacks. Aliens are supposed to be quick and melee, but they end up getting slower, more awkward and still melee.
I completely agree with this and it really hits it head on. Take a game like Starcraft 2, there is an early game, mid game and late game. During each of these phases players can make plays that either set them up for the late game or can use a strong early game strategy to attempt to obtain out an early win. In Natural Selection 2 I feel Marines have this potential, while the strategies are somewhat limiting, players are given choices in upgrades, players are given choices in how they spend their rez and generally for Marines I feel lit is their map movement which is essentially their early mid and late game.
Aliens on the other hand feel like they have nothing but a late game. Their are not diverse strategies you can use to obtain map control, their is basically one acceptable build order and their lifeforms are basically "Imma be a skulk for 6 minutes, pray we get an onos, oh i got onos now i'll be onos till 15 minutes (hopefully) and if i die I'll spawn onos." Now if you don't get the first onos egg its "I'mma be a skulk for 15 minutes save up my rez then I can impact the game as an Onos." Yes skulks do make a difference and yes you can go gorge and lurk but in all honesty you should only have 2-3 gorges 1 - 2 lurks. The other 5-7 players are waiting. The pacing of the game feels incredibly slanted as an Alien.
That is why I think this game frustrates new players and limits the fun experienced players can have because of the lack of diversification.
In SC, when you rush, you *cannot* go mid or tech, if you go tech, you cannot go mid or rush etc, due to the price of initial units.
About the only trade off in NS2 with rushing is counter rushing and base building.
Onos already costs 75 pres, which is an absurd amount of res for a single player to rake in, especially given the hit and run nature of aliens and the lack of pres earned for kills. The issue is how easily the commander can create an onos egg using Tres.
I feel the Onos itself and its cost are in a fine position regarding the pres aspect. If it was much harder to get with Tres and the other Alien classes were made much more useful to the point where you didn't NEED onos, then you would only see onos in stalemate games where they went on long enough for both teams to hit the peak of their tech, marines with full on exo escorts or jetpackers and Aliens with onos.
I feel the Onos itself and its cost are in a fine position regarding the pres aspect. If it was much harder to get with Tres and the other Alien classes were made much more useful to the point where you didn't NEED onos, then you would only see onos in stalemate games where they went on long enough for both teams to hit the peak of their tech, marines with full on exo escorts or jetpackers and Aliens with onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the best way to solve this problem is to look to the marine commander. The Exo and Onos are arguably similar units, and fulfill very similar roles, yet you will never see a marine commander early dropping an exo. You probably won't even see a marine commander late dropping an exo, or even dropping an exo at all in mos cases. If it is decided that spamming of lifeform eggs is not a desired strategy, then finding out why the marine commander seldom drops tech directly would be a good starting point.
I personally believe it is a case of tiered and expensive (both in cost and time) upgrades. Most people agree that an exo is basically useless without at least level 2 armour, and it is preferable to have level 3. Even though level 3 armour takes substantial resources and time to get, ignoring weapon upgrades altogether is also a good way to lose, even though it has absolutely no effect on the exo you plan to drop.
This highlights two problems with the current alien situation.
The first is how upgrades work. Firstly, an Onos without carapace, while substantially weaker, is nowhere near as useless as a level 0 armour exo. Furthermore, even though shells are relatively weak and vulnerable, getting the max level of an upgrade from a single 30 tres investment is too all or nothing. There aren't enough other factors to consider, meaning that certain choices become the obvious ones.
The second problem is the tradeoff. If you want to rush level 3 armor exo, you risk leaving your light marine's weapons entirely unupgraded. Because light marines are so important, this leaves the marine team very vulnerable, and is a massive risk. Not so on the alien team. Firstly, the most important Onos upgrade, carapace, applies universally to every lifeform, meaning no tradeoff. Secondly, even without carapace, the difference between a carapace skulk and a vanilla skulk is almost meaningless with an onos on the field.
That is not the case for the marines, though. They have no long evolutions, start always at their most up to date fire power and don't lose any tech upgrades except for access to exo and jetpacks when they lose their second CC.
In a balanced world, at least level 3 marine upgrades would be tied to CCs as well, so they get actually weaker if pushed back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's more because when Aliens fight for a Hive, they fight hard. As in, if the Hive goes down, it's because all of their higher lifeforms were killed in the defense of it. Marines really don't have all that much to spend p.res on, so even if they all get slaughtered and lose their weapons defending a CC, they can just go and buy new ones.
So it's not so much that the Aliens just become that much weaker (Although they sort of do with all of the extra abilities tied to second Hive) so much as...now they're all reduced to Skulks and have a large number of upgraded Marines are incoming.
Lerk without spores and then with spores can also be very helpful. In fact, aliens usually lose ground if the entire team waits for an onos. They should anyway. If the marines aren't pushing before fades come out, they're asking to lose.
As far as usefulness, IMO lifeforms are useful all the way, except perhaps skulks which become gradually crappier and crappier as shotguns, weapon levels, armor, and jetpacks come out. Xeno is meh. The other lifeforms have abilities which carry them well into the late-game (bile bomb, spores/umbra, fades are always good except for sieging, etc.) - although vortex needs to be rethought or something IMO; it's not very useful atm.
As far as marines/hives discrepancy, I agree. I have always disliked how marines can fully tech, except exos and jetpacks, on one chair, while aliens basically get no tech on 1 hive. But asymmetry and all that... w/e.
Gorge isn't that much fun without bile bomb, but bile bomb makes it a lot more fun/dangerous, at least for me. With BB you can really start pushing positions. Also tunnels might or might not come some time in the future :-) .
And to be honest, I don't think "not having a p.res sink" is an indication that the lifeform is bad. I've gone lerk or fade and then had 100 p.res. It doesn't mean anything.
I haven't gotten the hang of Lerks and don't really see the justification of buying a Lerk evolution at my low skill level.
Skulks and Gorges are pretty much perfect as-is, I'm usually 90% Skulk or Gorge.
I used to hate lerk and thought it was kind of lame and not very useful, but I've been playing a lot more with it lately (after the spike buff), and it definitely holds its ground pretty well. With some teamwork and a combination of spike kiting/dodging, attaching to dark places in the map/spiking, surprise hit-and-runs, and eventually spores, it can really bring severe pain to marine teams.
Once spores are researched and umbra becomes available they are nightmare to any team.
Anyway, I agree with most points. I enjoy playing alien side, but they're lacking some features (for gorge, fade), and early onos is a tad overused. Lerk is awesome though.
But me and all of my NS1 friends agree that playing aliens felt way better than you actually could use your personal res to build stuff like RT's and upgrade chambers. Nowadays you just save for a higher lifeform or go gorge instead of exerting influence on the strategic meta-level.