Am I The Only One Who Finds 75% Of My Games Are Stomps
TimmahIsASaint
Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
Join Date: 2012-09-24 Member: 160678Members
Now let me clarify one thing. This is not a thread about balance, design changes or anything else. I just want you to write out of how many games you find them to be close and maybe a description because obviously this games premise of resource control does often promote snowballing.
So yeah I'd say about 1 out of 4 games I can't tell you whos going to win in the first 5-10 minutes. HOWEVER that one good game is one of the most fun gaming experiences available right now. The other three games aren't not fun... They are just kind of meh. Personally I don't think its fun winning a stomp either.
What are your guys ratio ? In all honesty I most times I don't think it is caused by any large skill discrepancy, but more just the snowballing nature of the game. That and stacking can be an issue, I wish I could find more all random servers. Anyway whats your guys ratio ?
P.S. Yes I've seen and made amazing comebacks and their are exceptions to the rule.
So yeah I'd say about 1 out of 4 games I can't tell you whos going to win in the first 5-10 minutes. HOWEVER that one good game is one of the most fun gaming experiences available right now. The other three games aren't not fun... They are just kind of meh. Personally I don't think its fun winning a stomp either.
What are your guys ratio ? In all honesty I most times I don't think it is caused by any large skill discrepancy, but more just the snowballing nature of the game. That and stacking can be an issue, I wish I could find more all random servers. Anyway whats your guys ratio ?
P.S. Yes I've seen and made amazing comebacks and their are exceptions to the rule.
Comments
Smoothing the rough edges on both sides (making all alien classes about equally viable, giving marines a mid-tier weapon tech (between SG's and Exo's/JP's)) will probably decrease this effect and give the opponents team more time to adapt, reducing the amount of 'roflstomp'. It's a matter of balance, even though your thread is not about it. :)
--Scythe--
usually there are only 4-5 players who know what they're doing in any given server... if 3-4 of them end up on the same team then it's a stomp.
i've played 2000 hours of tf2, it happens all the time... maybe even >90% of the time. best thing to do in pub is not worry about winning/losing and just do your best... noone really cares about winning or losing pub games anyway and anyone who gloats after winning a stomp is a ######.
usually there are only 4-5 players who know what they're doing in any given server... if 3-4 of them end up on the same team then it's a stomp.
i've played 2000 hours of tf2, it happens all the time... maybe even >90% of the time. best thing to do in pub is not worry about winning/losing and just do your best... noone really cares about winning or losing pub games anyway and anyone who gloats after winning a stomp is a ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is one thing I have to commend this community on without failure, I believe I've come across very few trash talkers in over 40 hours of NS2 (Post beta). One of which was my teams com who basically said we were all worthless and he could do whatever he wanted without any input from us. Suffice to say he was quickly ejected and left to cry the rest of the match while we won. And a few people who like to gloat their victory after a game but it is very nice.
And yeah thats true, any team game where there are "Pub stars" or highly skilled teammates it only takes around 3 to win a game. My favorite games though are the ones with 3-4 "Pub stars" on BOTH teams amidst rookies. Freaking epic. The learning that can take place while also just speccing the destruction of pros vs noobs. Delicious just delicious.
And yeah thats true, any team game where there are "Pub stars" or highly skilled teammates it only takes around 3 to win a game. My favorite games though are the ones with 3-4 "Pub stars" on BOTH teams amidst rookies. Freaking epic. The learning that can take place while also just speccing the destruction of pros vs noobs. Delicious just delicious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to know what server you are playing on that has 6-8 high level players. Typically when I play there are 2-4 and a few mid tier players . I've tied joining beta servers but to no avail on that front. Sometimes its a bit annoying to be honest.
I think I just get lucky sometimes. Games like that with a mixture of (I'd assume they have atleast 500 hours of NS2, and most did when checking steam profiles) semi pros ? and noobs is just random. I saw a couple people from All-In once. That match was umm... Interesting. Usually its more 3-6 but like I said these games with players of that caliber are rare and to be treasured! <3
Also there are a lot of what I'd call "Pubstars" out there who aren't nicked with a team but I've seen around enough to know they will rock your **** if you aren't on top of your game. A quick check of their steam profile will show 500+ hours honing those skills!
Honestly I think their are a lot of high tier players that do what needs to be done so perfectly people just don't notice.
NS1 stomps were quite rare - even if you were losing the whole game it felt kind of dynamic and it wasn't over until marines lost their forward base or aliens their second hive.
Pretty often I've ended up on servers with guys like vincent, cuddlycombine, decoy, some 420, inv, or nxzl guys. And that's just playing on the official UWE servers, usually we split up although I will say that sometimes 3 or 4 of us get on a team for fun. I'd say my win to loss ratio is probably something like 3 or 4 to 1 though. One player that is really good will make a pretty huge impact most games. And to be honest I think players tend to try and be on the same team as the players that are doing really well.
And a lot of player who are good know the pros so they know what team to jump on or recognize the top players.
Smoothing the rough edges on both sides (making all alien classes about equally viable, giving marines a mid-tier weapon tech (between SG's and Exo's/JP's)) will probably decrease this effect and give the opponents team more time to adapt, reducing the amount of 'roflstomp'. It's a matter of balance, even though your thread is not about it. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*applause*
You nailed it Angelusz.
Though the hard part is ensuring that comebacks are still possible through very few remaining powerful methods. (BB @ 2 hives or all lifeforms available independent of amount of hives etc)
Else it'd be the same.
But now, there's no fast travel option for the Aliens and even if we did, you can't drop the Hive, because there's a Command Station there. Should you try attacking it, beacon isn't just limited to the Marine Start, anymore. The weak point now is obviously the power node, but you're just pushing your luck. Will the Commander see you and beacon in time?
What I'm getting at is, Aliens have no means to make a comeback anymore. Once Marines control the map, they really do "control" it.
On the other hand, Marines also need that second Command Station to remain viable (why Marines only need two as opposed to three like Aliens is beyond me - they have a lot more tools to defend their bases, but that's another story). Their issue is different, however: the Onos explosion. In NS1, you were often required to put down your dreams of evolving to a higher lifeform so you could plant a defensive position with the Gorge, but now the Commander does all that, so everyone is free to use the higher lifeforms.
While Aliens don't have the same degree of map control, having 2 Onos and a bunch of Fades on all sides of your base does make it rather difficult to make a push. If you try, the Onos on the other side of the base will chew your base's power node. 1 Base marines are still rather terrifying, though, with A3 and W3 and all the toys they bought before the second Command Station went down. Once Aliens lose the second Hive, all the abilities it unlocks are instantly wiped away.
The dynamic has changed from "Keep this team away from this location" to "Make this team go away from this location and establish a base there". See what I'm getting at? A stomp is usually inevitable.
If there would be way less res nodes around, game would stay way longer on one set level tech and actually losing RTs would cost way more than currently.
Also, comeback would be easier and games could be more interesting, as you never know the result of the game, as any team can control back few nodes avaible on the map, than currently... 7 - 8 ...
Once one team controls at least 70% of the res nodes on the map, it's pretty much known who will win.
if i have learned one thing being commander in hundreds of games from ns1 to ns2 today, it's that commanders don't win games, they can only lose games, it's the team that wins a game.
no matter how pro you are at commanding, you can't "win" a game for your team, it's your team that's winning for you.
don't mistake my words, a good com and bad com does make the different, that's why i said commander has only power to lose games, if you don't know what you're doing or just doing wrong stuff.
Let's pick e.g. Dota2 and pit 5 highly advanced players against 5 first-timers. Who do you think will win that match?
Sure, these unfair match-ups are boring, even if you are winning them, I agree. But if you did not receive any advantages from your experience, you could as well go to a casino and play roulette...
Then, there is the phenomenon that people who communicate with their mates are more <i>attractive </i>to other players who know how to use their voice as well.
Result? All cooperative players end up on one side, having a great time and winning hands down, because they pass on crucial information ("Mainbase power node is critical! We need to weld it!") or coordinate their force better ("The marines are in our second hive with Exos! Let's team up and destroy their mainbase together!") while the solipsist idiots on the other side who play NS2 like it was a Doom3 single player campaign get killed when they try to solo organized groups of enemies again and again and again.
But now, there's no fast travel option for the Aliens and even if we did, you can't drop the Hive, because there's a Command Station there. Should you try attacking it, beacon isn't just limited to the Marine Start, anymore. The weak point now is obviously the power node, but you're just pushing your luck. Will the Commander see you and beacon in time?
What I'm getting at is, Aliens have no means to make a comeback anymore. Once Marines control the map, they really do "control" it.
On the other hand, Marines also need that second Command Station to remain viable (why Marines only need two as opposed to three like Aliens is beyond me - they have a lot more tools to defend their bases, but that's another story). Their issue is different, however: the Onos explosion. In NS1, you were often required to put down your dreams of evolving to a higher lifeform so you could plant a defensive position with the Gorge, but now the Commander does all that, so everyone is free to use the higher lifeforms.
While Aliens don't have the same degree of map control, having 2 Onos and a bunch of Fades on all sides of your base does make it rather difficult to make a push. If you try, the Onos on the other side of the base will chew your base's power node. 1 Base marines are still rather terrifying, though, with A3 and W3 and all the toys they bought before the second Command Station went down. Once Aliens lose the second Hive, all the abilities it unlocks are instantly wiped away.
The dynamic has changed from "Keep this team away from this location" to "Make this team go away from this location and establish a base there". See what I'm getting at? A stomp is usually inevitable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
once the commander uses beacon, rush his main base and force a beacon there.... then go back etc. beacon is an extremely risky ability for anything other than 'emergency' situations.
i think the tech points do lead to 'segregation' of the map, but there's really nothing to stop your team from losing a hive on the left side at the same time as you kill a command station on the right side and effectively 'trade' locations.
i think the tech points do lead to 'segregation' of the map, but there's really nothing to stop your team from losing a hive on the left side at the same time as you kill a command station on the right side and effectively 'trade' locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, of course. This is how most turtles are broken. You send some, preferably an Onos to assault a power node to force a beacon. Once beaconed, assault another base with the rest of the team to bring it down.
Base trading becomes quite common in late game, especially when Exos come in to play. You can't beacon Exos, nor can they use phasegates, so they're stuck mauling your Hive while you're mauling their Command Station.
However, I'm not entirely convinced this is the way to go. It feels gimmicky to be forced to resort to such an all-in manouver. There should be some more depth to it, more strategies to take bases.
Currently, marines have that to some degree. Grenade Launchers are great for breaking Hives, however, mature Whips make that harder. What do you do? You bring a Flamethrower so they can't whack grenades back anymore. There's a Hydra farm preventing your Flamethrower guy from getting close? Bring an ARC to blow them up (ideally, but Hydras are so weak you can just shoot them). Crags healing up the structures and lifeforms and you can't kill them? Kill the Cysts so they go down easier.
Aliens really have only one tactic: hit the power node with everything you've got. If there are Sentries, hit the battery. There's no strategic advantage to going for anything else other than the power. Hitting the phasegate leaves the IPs and Obs, and hitting either of those leaves the other options open.
Solution? I don't know. Make structures weaker and give them an emergency battery so they keep operating for a few seconds after power has gone down? Maybe. That way you might actually want to hit the Obs first, or whatever, and thus have more options.
Are your games all less than 10 minutes?
They probably aren't stomps, but once your team starts making bad choices, makes mistakes, etc it's hard to come back
I see lots of Marine games get thrown away because people don't check their maps and reinforce places that are unguarded or already being attacked
A fast commander can keep even bad players going for a long period of time just by hitting the distress beacon when needed
Aliens who don't properly harrass far nodes are going to likely get a herd of marines scooping their res nodes
If the alien comm drops a hive without having someone there to scout forward one room chances are it will just go down instantly
I play on a public clan server <i>(the clan typically plays with random people instead of tournaments)</i> and the place has a lot of regulars because of it
When we get 2 good commanders and no team stack the games go for a very long time typically
Well, that's an improvement. In beta I could tell you that 90% of the time, and in earlier builds, even before the game started.
Base trading becomes quite common in late game, especially when Exos come in to play. You can't beacon Exos, nor can they use phasegates, so they're stuck mauling your Hive while you're mauling their Command Station.
However, I'm not entirely convinced this is the way to go. It feels gimmicky to be forced to resort to such an all-in manouver. There should be some more depth to it, more strategies to take bases.
Currently, marines have that to some degree. Grenade Launchers are great for breaking Hives, however, mature Whips make that harder. What do you do? You bring a Flamethrower so they can't whack grenades back anymore. There's a Hydra farm preventing your Flamethrower guy from getting close? Bring an ARC to blow them up (ideally, but Hydras are so weak you can just shoot them). Crags healing up the structures and lifeforms and you can't kill them? Kill the Cysts so they go down easier.
Aliens really have only one tactic: hit the power node with everything you've got. If there are Sentries, hit the battery. There's no strategic advantage to going for anything else other than the power. Hitting the phasegate leaves the IPs and Obs, and hitting either of those leaves the other options open.
Solution? I don't know. Make structures weaker and give them an emergency battery so they keep operating for a few seconds after power has gone down? Maybe. That way you might actually want to hit the Obs first, or whatever, and thus have more options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
base-trading in ns2 does not have to be an 'all-in' like starcraft 2.
in ns2 there are only a small number of essential marine structures to relocate (proto lab, IP, arms lab and maybe robotics and advanced armory), because the armory, command station, obs and phase gate are already there.
alien have a lot of buildings to relocate, but they have the shift 'echo' ability which can transport any nearby building to any other 'infested' location on the map.
cost to rebuild armory and get 3/3 upgrades back = 20 res
cost to relocate alien tech structure = 3 res each (x6) = 18 res.
i would argue that the only reason we haven't seen this happen is because the game is still new and thus most players haven't established that list of 'protocol' which dictates that 'if the opponent does that - then i should respond with this etc'.
obviously in the quest for deep and strategic 'epic' games it would help if stuff like the 6min onos was tweaked (*cough* 3 hive).