Onos spam
Morshu
Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Rant about cheap it is to drop Onos egg 5-6 minutes into a match</div>Sorry if this haven't been said so many times before in so many other threads but I just feel the need to express my thoughts about the 5-6 minute mark Onos egg drop so please forgive me/bear with me.
I have now played every day since release and it's been enjoyable for the first week or so however after you've been up against an onos at the 5-6 minute mark for over a week just because some alien commander REALLY wants to win badly which is SO cheap/boring to do and not to see any of the other lifeforms put to GOOD USE.
Of course I do see gorges healing Oni', sometimes a few lerks, occationally fades even at times but I have seen SO MANY Oni' over the last 9 days that I wanna take my keyboard and EAT IT out of pure rage (yes just like the german kid basically wink* wink*) and it's not even about losing to the Kharaa that makes me mad but the friggin' 5-6 minute mark Onos egg drop that drives me absolutely crazy like a mother****** with rabies in a god **** rubbercell with a straitjacket choking on my own foam! (apologies if anybody is 'offended' by this)
Seriously how the HECK are marines supposed to take down an Onos (+ carapace at times) with weapons upgrade 1!? maybe JUST maybe you'll have weapons upgrade 2 by then but still you'll need 5+ marines in the same damn room in order to even have a glimmer of hope to kill that Onos head on. (FYI this is pub play we are talking about here)
Sure you can 'trap' the Onos in a certain area by having half the team come in from one side and the rest from the opposite side but I can't even recall ONCE when I/we pub players actually succesfully coordinated such a move and even the very few times where we were in position the Onos can just run through us like we were ghosts ergo it is nearly impossible to block an Onos despite it's size.
Now I'll come with some suggestions of mine how to push the Onos BACK to tier 3 rather it being the 'universal tier 2 lifeform'. (seriously that's what the Onos is this time around):
1) Tres. Onos egg requires 2 mature hives ergo decrease maturation process significantly on the hives meaning if you want an Onos early on you're gonna have to use nutrient mist a lot! (aka make it a VERY big investment/risk in the early/mid-game!)
2) Tres. Onos egg requires 3 hives (now this is the 'easy/blunt/dull' fix which can become a problem in long games where the marines might have secured 2/3 hive locations and the aliens just need a heavy unit like the Onos to get through (though bilebomb might be the answer in reality for such tasks at tier 2)
3) Add 'evolve lifeform research' for fade/onos on the 2nd/3rd hive
(ergo choose between unlocking the fade lifeform OR the Onos lifeform where the 'research' for the Onos will be much higher cost compared to the fade 'research' though this option is too similar to marines researching items in my opinion!)
4) Make it so you need two hives both with an evolution path (shift, crag or shade) + fully mature (which isn't going to help a lot but it is an option nonetheless...)
Anything that can put the Onos lifeform back to tier 3 or atleast at a minimum 10 minutes into a match and not have it on tier 2 would make the game have so much more variation (lifeform-wise) compared to today where you can't play 1 single match in public where the alien commander isn't going to drop an onos egg and just 'end it all' with a push of a button, it would be the same if the marine commander could drop dual minigun exo suits at the 5-6 minute mark which just by saying it outloud is a ******* joke. (sorry but that's what it is)
I personally hope UWE will fix the Onos Tres egg drop 'issue' before the ESL tournament but I very much doubt that's gonna happen overnight and knowing how the previous EU launch tournament matches went we're gonna see lots and lots of Oni' probably so many that wasabi/hugh is gonna ruin their throats if they really care to roar Onos every time one is on the screen.
I have now played every day since release and it's been enjoyable for the first week or so however after you've been up against an onos at the 5-6 minute mark for over a week just because some alien commander REALLY wants to win badly which is SO cheap/boring to do and not to see any of the other lifeforms put to GOOD USE.
Of course I do see gorges healing Oni', sometimes a few lerks, occationally fades even at times but I have seen SO MANY Oni' over the last 9 days that I wanna take my keyboard and EAT IT out of pure rage (yes just like the german kid basically wink* wink*) and it's not even about losing to the Kharaa that makes me mad but the friggin' 5-6 minute mark Onos egg drop that drives me absolutely crazy like a mother****** with rabies in a god **** rubbercell with a straitjacket choking on my own foam! (apologies if anybody is 'offended' by this)
Seriously how the HECK are marines supposed to take down an Onos (+ carapace at times) with weapons upgrade 1!? maybe JUST maybe you'll have weapons upgrade 2 by then but still you'll need 5+ marines in the same damn room in order to even have a glimmer of hope to kill that Onos head on. (FYI this is pub play we are talking about here)
Sure you can 'trap' the Onos in a certain area by having half the team come in from one side and the rest from the opposite side but I can't even recall ONCE when I/we pub players actually succesfully coordinated such a move and even the very few times where we were in position the Onos can just run through us like we were ghosts ergo it is nearly impossible to block an Onos despite it's size.
Now I'll come with some suggestions of mine how to push the Onos BACK to tier 3 rather it being the 'universal tier 2 lifeform'. (seriously that's what the Onos is this time around):
1) Tres. Onos egg requires 2 mature hives ergo decrease maturation process significantly on the hives meaning if you want an Onos early on you're gonna have to use nutrient mist a lot! (aka make it a VERY big investment/risk in the early/mid-game!)
2) Tres. Onos egg requires 3 hives (now this is the 'easy/blunt/dull' fix which can become a problem in long games where the marines might have secured 2/3 hive locations and the aliens just need a heavy unit like the Onos to get through (though bilebomb might be the answer in reality for such tasks at tier 2)
3) Add 'evolve lifeform research' for fade/onos on the 2nd/3rd hive
(ergo choose between unlocking the fade lifeform OR the Onos lifeform where the 'research' for the Onos will be much higher cost compared to the fade 'research' though this option is too similar to marines researching items in my opinion!)
4) Make it so you need two hives both with an evolution path (shift, crag or shade) + fully mature (which isn't going to help a lot but it is an option nonetheless...)
Anything that can put the Onos lifeform back to tier 3 or atleast at a minimum 10 minutes into a match and not have it on tier 2 would make the game have so much more variation (lifeform-wise) compared to today where you can't play 1 single match in public where the alien commander isn't going to drop an onos egg and just 'end it all' with a push of a button, it would be the same if the marine commander could drop dual minigun exo suits at the 5-6 minute mark which just by saying it outloud is a ******* joke. (sorry but that's what it is)
I personally hope UWE will fix the Onos Tres egg drop 'issue' before the ESL tournament but I very much doubt that's gonna happen overnight and knowing how the previous EU launch tournament matches went we're gonna see lots and lots of Oni' probably so many that wasabi/hugh is gonna ruin their throats if they really care to roar Onos every time one is on the screen.
Comments
but i think in competitive play it's already being exploited - the marines just go for a quick extractor snipe and the 6min onos turns into an 8min onos... then more pressure the 8min onos turns into a 10min onos.
i totally wouldn't be surpried if onos is moved to 3 hive (or another significant onos 'delaying' tweak) in the next couple of weeks or so.
I think I'll hold off playing until the next patch.
it's worth finding out... because when every single strategy is 'lets get onos at 6 minutes' then it gets extremely shallow.
(ergo make lerk and fade VIABLE mid-game instead for the Onos)
While we're at it slightly reduce the hitbox on the lerk and I think the lerk would be absolutely perfect, now back to topic...
They win every game without this tactic, pretty much, as it stands.
So...they would still win.
(ergo make lerk and fade VIABLE mid-game instead for the Onos)
While we're at it slightly reduce the hitbox on the lerk and I think the lerk would be absolutely perfect, now back to topic...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you said is semi off topic. But (and I'm not trying to be rude) I think you need to play better with the fade and lerk. They are extremely effective when used correctly, even late game. Yes, it gets harder as marines get armor and weapons upgrades, but still incredibly effective when used correctly.
Yup.
Alien Game: Onos or lose before Onos.
Marine Game: Win before Onos or Lose.
Actually every game I have commanded as alien since 1.0 released, I have yet to spawn an early onos egg. I always fast hive into 4 rt's then push upgrades out for both hives, then take my 3rd. My win percentage is somewhere around 70% success rate. I've found getting shade early at first or second is good because in scattering around shades I can force marines to waste resources scanning trying to find them (if you hide them well enough). I'm not denying early onos egg is not a problem I think it is a pretty cheap poorly thought out "feature" but it is certainly not the only viable strategy as alien.
Actually every game I have commanded as alien since 1.0 released, I have yet to spawn an early onos egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto - I've only seen 1 early onos egg, and on pub servers the aliens do fine without it.
However, that does not mean that the onos is in a "good place".
I've suggested elsewhere that the solution may be to prevent aliens buying the onos with p-res. Make it a strategic unit that can only be spawned via a t-res onos egg. This should force/encourage players to use gorge/lerk/fade, and it would allow any number of balancing tweaks (e.g. spawning an onos egg whilst another onos is alive could cost 2x the res).
(for the 5-minute onos, a quick hack would simply disable onos until 15 minutes into the match)
This is so weird. I'm not saying the 6 minute Onos isn't a problem, it might be, probably is. But I can honestly say I don't even recall once seeing a true 6 minute Onos in the games I've played since release. Sure, it probably has happened, but it hasn't bothered me even enough for me to remember. Greenish comms obviously won't know how to do it and I myself haven't been doing it because (besides it not being a very interesting strategy) I usually wouldn't know who in my team to give the egg to so they don't die to the first two LMG marines they run into.
Complain how marines are superior in every single aspect at everything.
Onos is the only viable unit because its the only thing that isn't getting blown up in half a second.
How anyone thinks this game is in a good place at this moment mind boggles me. The balance is a joke and it has ###### all to do with the onos.
3 marines standing at one end of a long corridor is enough to make an early game no-carapace onos turn around and run away, and if you can manage to trap him you have a fairly decent chance at killing him. I'm talking strictly in the situations where there's a 6 minute onos drop, and I'm not saying it'll work every time. But it's basically the only thing you can do ATM.
If it is a true 6 minute rushed Onos (no carapace, or celerity) and marines are able to muster level 2 weapons (which can basically be done with starting resources) then it should take about 4 to 6 LMG clips to put down the Onos. Considering you shouldn't really miss a single shot against an Onos, this is a very easy task. The problem is, when the marine commander decides he wants shotguns, and phase gates, and forward armories, and armour upgrades, all of which are very effective against skulks and the like, but which count for almost nothing against Onos, then you may find you don't have the raw damage on the LMG to compete with the Onos.
Balanced != fun, or even good.
This game is half RTS, and if the available strategies for winning are reduced to a relatively linear goal that always ends the same its going to hurt. And that's mostly talking about the Aliens. I WANT to like aliens, I like play on their team even knowing how the strategies usually turn out, but I still find myself still having more fun as marines, even when it comes to losing as marines. We can hole up with grenade launchers or whatever and just goof off until the Aliens finally knock us out. Meanwhile if the Aliens can't sustain multiple Onos by the time Marines have W3, A3 and exos then its immediately game over. The "Upgrade" to the skulk is 50 pres (fade), and while it can certainly be used effectively its a lot more devastating to your pres when you die than it is when a marine with a shotty dies, and even then the marine has the ability to recover that shotgun, or let another marine pick up his res investment.
Perhaps the individual Aliens need to be tougher, but I'm far far far less likely to invest in the lerk or fade because of how easy it is to die to competent marines who have been upgraded. With shotguns/jetpacks on Marines I feel comfortable with that investment. Combined with W3 and A3 I expect to live long enough to earn back my investment if not some extra. But given how minimal the effect of the Alien evolutions feel, I'd rather just stick to skulk and save my pres for an Onos, the only class that can actually earn its investment back without getting dusted by a marine team that is turtling its way to your base.
Only reason I have seen aliens win a single game in my 70 hours of play since the release of this game is because the marines were utterly incompetent. You want to know why you are seeing 50/50 wins rates? It's because there are so many completely new players to the game playing both sides and being terrible on both sides.
All it takes it one or two half decent players on marines and the game is already decided. Name one thing OTHER than the onos that is good for aliens?
Marines have a vastly superior tech tree, the ability to reclaim resources off structures, can pick up a friends gun after it's dropped, a shotgun that one shots skulks WITH carapace at w2 and can two shot every other evolution other then onos, 10 res jetpacks which negates 3 of the lifeforms as a threat, much safer tech, upgrades that apply to every single unit(NO TOUGH CHOICES HERE!), the fact that if a marine hit every bullet with no upgrades it is still a faster time to kill then the skulk can bite three times with a hitscan weapon, the ability to teleport to any base that is under assault making it impossible to snipe tech in any form, UPGRADE THAT PERSIST THROUGH THE LOSS OF THE TECH STRUCTURE. ###### not even all of it. There is no real point in the game when alien has any sort of real advantage or any real capacity to have an advantage.
There is a reason the early onos drop is "op". It's because the onos is the only lifeform that is even a minor threat to a competent marine team. Saying you have to be sneaky and what not to play alien is moot when after the three minute mark ever time marines try to push into a room they are going to have a scan backing them up denying any sort of ambush potential.
If you think I sound mad, it's because I probably am. I cannot understand how anyone can go on about how the balance is fine in the current state of this game. There is a lot to this game that COULD make it amazing. It is a lot of fun, or I should say it can be a lot of fun, but there are a lot of aspect directly related to balance that bring it down.
Edit: I hate the word balance. Balance implies that everything has to be the same or equal. It doesn't. The problem is that at the moment there are practically no edge or advantages that aliens can exploit to get ahead or that are not easily countered by a piece of marine tech. The only thing aliens have is the incredible durability of the onos. That's it. What I really think is that it is ###### there seems to be only one viable method of victory for aliens, and that is just poor design. Human tech flows better, works better, and allows for far more game play and tactical choices. Other then the flamethrower, everything is useful at pretty much all stages of the game. Skulks, lerks, and fades become worthless once a group of marines has two shotguns and ineffective after a3 and jetpacks. It's pretty obvious that a lot more thought went into exactly how marines play then aliens, aliens feel like they were just tacked on. Aliens need some love. They need a advantage.
Personally I think the skulk does need a buff to make it more useful into the late game, early game skulks are fine but they seem to drop off a lot once the marines start to get rifle and armor upgrades.
The lerk I think is fine currently, maybe reduce the hit box a bit but other than that it's in a good spot. It has spores which go through armor and obstruct marine vision, and umbra which reduces 50% of a marine's damage. Spikes could probably use a small buff but it shouldn't be as good as a marine rifle. The lerk isn't really meant to be a direct combat unit, more of a support unit. And it fills that role quite well.
Fades get countered pretty easily by a shotgun I agree, but UWE needs to be cautious with how they approach this. In the beta fades were WAYYYY too good. To the point where a single fade could literally wreck entire teams of marines without hardly breaking a sweat. It does seem like you're exaggerating how good the shotgun is though. You have to be point blank to score a perfect hit and even then the fade can kill you before you get off the second round.
Suggesting that the marines should lose their upgrades after the tech lab is destroyed is insane. The tech lab upgrades take FAR longer than the alien upgrades and cost significantly more. Taking out a tech lab at any point in the game would be a fatal blow to the marine team if it occurred. Not to mention that marines lose their upgrades if the tech lab dies, something that doesn't happen for the aliens.
Overall I don't agree with how underpowered you claim the aliens are. They could use some tweaking sure but it's far from anything game breaking.
and this is very common misunderstanding about how early onos works.
what you need to have :
4min onos ( yes it's possible...) you need instant 5 extra rt's and then hive + gorge to help build that hive and resource towers.
5min onos instant 4 extra rt's and then hive + gorge to build that hive
6min onos instant 3 extra rt's and then hive, i don't think you even need gorge on this one, not sure.
7min onos instant 2 extra rt's and the hive.
that's how it goes, all aliens need is 2 extra rt spots and there you have it, onos at 6-7min, the one who says "allowing aliens take extra nodes" just doesn't know how little you need to make 6-7onos, just 3 resource towers, those aren't hard to defend nor capture.
aliens don't even risk basicly anything having that onos, upgrades are delayed mayby 2minutes but with that onos you can get control of whole map and that's just gg after that, even if that onos would die instantly you risk so little, only few minutes delaying on vital important upgrades, usually when onos egg is coming you can have cara and cele within few minutes.
Personally I think the skulk does need a buff to make it more useful into the late game, early game skulks are fine but they seem to drop off a lot once the marines start to get rifle and armor upgrades.
The lerk I think is fine currently, maybe reduce the hit box a bit but other than that it's in a good spot. It has spores which go through armor and obstruct marine vision, and umbra which reduces 50% of a marine's damage. Spikes could probably use a small buff but it shouldn't be as good as a marine rifle. The lerk isn't really meant to be a direct combat unit, more of a support unit. And it fills that role quite well.
Fades get countered pretty easily by a shotgun I agree, but UWE needs to be cautious with how they approach this. In the beta fades were WAYYYY too good. To the point where a single fade could literally wreck entire teams of marines without hardly breaking a sweat. It does seem like you're exaggerating how good the shotgun is though. You have to be point blank to score a perfect hit and even then the fade can kill you before you get off the second round.
Suggesting that the marines should lose their upgrades after the tech lab is destroyed is insane. The tech lab upgrades take FAR longer than the alien upgrades and cost significantly more. Taking out a tech lab at any point in the game would be a fatal blow to the marine team if it occurred. Not to mention that marines lose their upgrades if the tech lab dies, something that doesn't happen for the aliens.
Overall I don't agree with how underpowered you claim the aliens are. They could use some tweaking sure but it's far from anything game breaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I was playing against you earlier, you were the only marine on the other team who was anywhere near consistent with their aim, and you were absolutely terrifying because of it. I was telling all the aliens to target you first every single time, because if we didn't the attack would fail.
I disagree that marine's upgrades are more expensive. If you want a fully upgraded alien, you require three hives, one of each type of hive, at least one of each tech building and then the upgrades themselves. (80+45+30+45=200) Compared to marines which is the arms lab which only requires an armory, and then the upgrades themselves.(10+20+30+50+70=180) Pretty sure I have the math right... The real problem is that I have never successfully managed to snipe an arms lab because of phase gates/observatories and that they are much easier to obtain as well as back up with spare arms lab. The only time you can ever take down the upgrades are when they have already lost because you just broke the main base. Not even to mention how varied the usefulness of certain upgrades actually are.
One of my biggest gripes though is how cheap jetpacks are. 10 res for what is basically one of the most powerful item in the game. Shotguns are completely ridiculous right now as well. Once they are out, if you don't have carapace up it is GG. You will never successfully take down another enemy structure unless they completely ignore you, or you have a onos which can actually take a hit or two before running in terror.
There are a lot of little things too. Like recycle, which can mitigate how much damage a successful raid can actually do. The far superior support options the marine commander gets for his troops. Things like MACs and ARCs which give a lot more diversity to the marine commander experience. Marines really do feel far more fleshed out in my opinion. That said, exo suits are pretty mediocre at the moment, flamethrowers are pretty useless, and early onos drop might be too effective against what the marines can have fielded at that point. I really do think that the "balance" between the two sides is very far off, and the more I run into better players playing on both teams, the more I keep seeing it.
It is hard to say exactly what I think needs to be changed, because the two sides ARE supposed to play differently and all I can refer too is what aliens lack but marines have while trying to keep any examples inside the game itself. Skulks need to be able to get a bit beefier especially once mid/late game comes around. Shotguns need to be toned down a tad. Jetpacks need to be more expensive. Exo need a tad more health, but should probably get slightly less accurate weapons. Poison spores need to shoot like umbra. I have no clue what to do to fade to actually make them worth using, but in my opinion they simply are not a viable choice at the moment. Alien commander needs more active abilities for combat/countering stuff, like the ability hide a unit from scans or something, maybe a healing cloud. Infestation needs to serve a purpose beyond just supporting structures, like a speed boost to units, better healing, something. Gorges should be able to consume dead buildings or something like that in order to reclaim some of the tres, as well as get some more buildables or a new ability since playing them feels pretty lackluster right now. I'm sure there are better answers then anything that I have posted, or more likely I am simply wrong.