Marine VS Marine Alien VS Alien required compatibility [Devs please read]
ArmouredGRIFFON
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168635Members
Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168635Members
<div class="IPBDescription">MAKING THIS GAME INTO ESPORTS IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT THIS FEATURE DEV</div><u><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--fonto:Garamond--><span style="font-family:Garamond"><!--/fonto-->I just want to point out that the game mechanics may not need to be overhauled beyond that which is already underway but I hope the developers see this post. I have University papers to write so I'm going to make this fast and expand on it when I have more time...
</u>
Argument in a nutshell:
With a skill-cap the same as SC2 E-sport players will have preferred races (they will not be competent with all races).
If teams of those players wish to compete they will require to play as their own race.
NS2 forces players to play on EITHER Marines or Aliens.
: NS2 cannot accommodate for all possible E-sport players (if not a very little amount).
Now I know what you might be thinking, maybe (a) why take NS2 into E-sports (b) why don't players get good with all races? Well... (a) is a counter-factual on how you are motivated to play NS2, and I'm sure that the dev-team want to make the game as successful as possible.
(b) My point is that if you have played games such as Starcraft at all on a high level, you will understand how impermissible the claim is for players to be good at both "Marine" and "Alien" at the same time when it comes to commanding. Not that I am claiming that this game is on the same strategic level of Starcraft, but my argument stems from the fact that this game is focusing on a-symmetrical gameplay, and it does not ACCOMMODATE for a-symmetric players. Additionally in i.e. counter-strike; to that level of competitiveness, the analogy is dissimilar given that both teams use firearm weapon mechanics, and in NS2, Marine-skilled players are being forced to play as either Marine or Alien.
So: if the skill level to use Aliens or the skill level to use Marines is going to reach the level required for E-Sports competitive gameplay FPS or Strategy; and my opinion is that the skill cap needs to be drastically higher with a matchmaking system to let casuals play with casuals and professionals with professionals .etc.; the game is simply dysfunctional as an a-symmetric game.
<b>BONUS/PROS!</b>
That said, imagine the new layer of gameplay that adding Alien vs Alien, Marine vs Marine options would accommodate. If the matchmaking engine ran like Starcrafts, to the exception that a party leader would choose whether or not players play as Alien or Marine, then you could have not only our basic MvA [Marine vs Alien] gameplay but also MvM and AvA!
I want to make this game as good as it possibly can: I don't even play games THAT much anymore on time constraints (but I used to be a big player on the professional scene in Rainbow Six Vegas and I have had a master-league account on Starcraft); but as an outright nerd I see how much potential this has, and the concept is a good concept, and the idea needs not better execution but the appropriate execution to reach particular standards and in virtue of who I am I WANT TO SEE IT REACH THOSE STANDARDS :).
If you don't understand a word I just said guys, okay, just trust me on this right and I'll be happy to answer to any counter-argument you give me.
Peace.<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
</u>
Argument in a nutshell:
With a skill-cap the same as SC2 E-sport players will have preferred races (they will not be competent with all races).
If teams of those players wish to compete they will require to play as their own race.
NS2 forces players to play on EITHER Marines or Aliens.
: NS2 cannot accommodate for all possible E-sport players (if not a very little amount).
Now I know what you might be thinking, maybe (a) why take NS2 into E-sports (b) why don't players get good with all races? Well... (a) is a counter-factual on how you are motivated to play NS2, and I'm sure that the dev-team want to make the game as successful as possible.
(b) My point is that if you have played games such as Starcraft at all on a high level, you will understand how impermissible the claim is for players to be good at both "Marine" and "Alien" at the same time when it comes to commanding. Not that I am claiming that this game is on the same strategic level of Starcraft, but my argument stems from the fact that this game is focusing on a-symmetrical gameplay, and it does not ACCOMMODATE for a-symmetric players. Additionally in i.e. counter-strike; to that level of competitiveness, the analogy is dissimilar given that both teams use firearm weapon mechanics, and in NS2, Marine-skilled players are being forced to play as either Marine or Alien.
So: if the skill level to use Aliens or the skill level to use Marines is going to reach the level required for E-Sports competitive gameplay FPS or Strategy; and my opinion is that the skill cap needs to be drastically higher with a matchmaking system to let casuals play with casuals and professionals with professionals .etc.; the game is simply dysfunctional as an a-symmetric game.
<b>BONUS/PROS!</b>
That said, imagine the new layer of gameplay that adding Alien vs Alien, Marine vs Marine options would accommodate. If the matchmaking engine ran like Starcrafts, to the exception that a party leader would choose whether or not players play as Alien or Marine, then you could have not only our basic MvA [Marine vs Alien] gameplay but also MvM and AvA!
I want to make this game as good as it possibly can: I don't even play games THAT much anymore on time constraints (but I used to be a big player on the professional scene in Rainbow Six Vegas and I have had a master-league account on Starcraft); but as an outright nerd I see how much potential this has, and the concept is a good concept, and the idea needs not better execution but the appropriate execution to reach particular standards and in virtue of who I am I WANT TO SEE IT REACH THOSE STANDARDS :).
If you don't understand a word I just said guys, okay, just trust me on this right and I'll be happy to answer to any counter-argument you give me.
Peace.<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
Secondly playing AS marines VS marines would be TOTALLY diferent to playing AS Marines VS Aliens.
So essentially you would have to learn Marine vs Alien and Marine vs Marine, this breaks your entire argument.
As it means there is no longer a greater specialisation, furthermore: It would be stupid, destroy balance and totally isnt required in anyway shape or form.
MvM was fun, in combat.
It, however, really would not work in Classic.
Secondly playing AS marines VS marines would be TOTALLY diferent to playing AS Marines VS Aliens.
So essentially you would have to learn Marine vs Alien and Marine vs Marine, this breaks your entire argument.
As it means there is no longer a greater specialisation, furthermore: It would be stupid, destroy balance and totally isnt required in anyway shape or form.
MvM was fun, in combat.
It, however, really would not work in Classic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Competitive play is progressive: it may not reach the level of SC2 in the Strategy department but if it wants to appeal as a competitive genre then it needs to appeal to both commanders and FPS players on a high level taking into account that RTS commanders directly influence the FPS gameplay it is necessarily true that the skill gap with the commanders is going to have to be balanced should it increase. Should the skill gap increase then it will become harder to play as Aliens or Marines independently, hence implying the need to accommodate for both types of player on extremely high levels in matchmaking; therefore high level MvM or AvA otherwise MvA will place high level M's who are low level A's and low level A's who are high level M's against each other (this breaks the balance).
2) The point of a-symmetrical gameplay is to create these dimensions, I would see the amalgamation as a bonus.
3) False: extremely good players with M can be extremely good players as M based on their experience combating A's, this does not imply that they need to know A in detail (but it would be a bonus to them when making timing attacks); also your point of view does not take into account the FPS game: persons who are amazing marines may not be amazing as Aliens so the type of gameplay is a-symmetrical even if the skill-cap isn't that high (YET). Therein returning to premise 1 if the game progresses to be more competitive then the balance becomes self-defeating as it stands.
4) My argument IS that it is required to have balance on a high level, and is required to go into E-sports on the premise of great a-symmetric specialization - outright concluding that is falsifiable on those terms.
Anyway, enough rushing, back to work! I appreciate your comments and look forward to debating :)
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116252&st=0&start=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t=0&start=0</a>
Moreover I have think about it. But just think about a Skulk VS skulk ?
NS2 is not starcraft 2. Starcraft 2, or brood war as a competitive game is played in a 1on1 environment. Enabling players to reach their skill ceiling in their chosen race.
NS2 is not 1on1, it is team based. What that means is you are always going to have one player who is a better commander than the others, a player who is better with the shotgun than the others, a player who can sneak behind enemy lines to take out res nodes better and a player who plays a specific alien better than the others.
To follow on from your argument, if teams were designated as alien or marine teams only, then would their line-up be broken down into specific roles?
Player A does Lerk better, no-one go Lerk but him. etc, etc.
Having the game playout in the way it does at the moment allows for a team to develop a good balance between alien or marine dominance or a well-rounded group. Saying things such as:
<i>"My point is that if you have played games such as Starcraft at all on a high level, you will understand how impermissible the claim is for players to be good at both "Marine" and "Alien""</i>
To me seem like you are misunderstanding the game and how it functions. SC2 isn't the only successful e-sport. Before that there were games such as Quake, CS, SC:BW and War3. But all these games don't actually capture what NS2 is. NS2 is more like Dota or HoN.
Games that require you to have a set team leader, set strategy and counter-strategy and knowledge of the game, knowledge of the heroes and their counters.
In games such as Dota, players are able to play a range of heroes at a high level because it's required to compete at the highest level. What would happen if you could only play one Dota hero at the top level? Well, you wouldn't be in a top professional team.
It also seems to me like you want NS2 to compete with SC2 as an e-sport right now. Saying things like the game can't reach it's skill cap until teams only play as one race.
To you I say:
Let the teams and the game settle down together, let the meta game work itself out, once the balance is fine tuned abit more then take a look at the game.
In closing, I would like to say, the thing that brought games like SC2 into the e-sports community and the lime light was the actual community. People going out of their way to advertise a game they enjoyed and loved, and wanted to share with others.
It didn't, your point is entirely moot.
I like it because it creates a new dynamic, however the game is too new for any of this to be decided yet.
(there are mods which will let you play these gametypes, but they're pretty terrible beyond fleeting amusement)
(there are mods which will let you play these gametypes, but they're pretty terrible beyond fleeting amusement)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Btw, like i said, NS1 had no problems being an esport. It didn't have as many viewers as cod/cs sure, but it also didn't have the player base.
That way your measure of skill is how well you can learn both sides, for both teams, and if you're better at one, you get a chance to prove it in every game.
That way your measure of skill is how well you can learn both sides, for both teams, and if you're better at one, you get a chance to prove it in every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is indeed how it worked in NS1. You'd play 4 rounds, both teams played each side. If both teams won marines, lost kharaa you'd have a decider match where the teams picked their preferred side. In the event that both picked marines, you just did another 2 rounds.
Can't say the player base hated that idea :) More draws = more matches to spectate
I mean seriously, could you imagine how imbalanced it would be in CounterStrike, if you could say i only wanna be Counter Terrorists.
Same deal with NS2, you should be forced to play as both sides, else it wont ever be balanced in any shape and form.
Even in public servers, the game ends after one round is wrong. you should be forced to play 1 time on each side before next map.
Both teams switch sides playing marines and aliens, making it fair for both teams.
You're basically saying pro Counter Strike teams should be able to choose whether they want to be terrorist or counter terrorists, and never have to switch lol.
Doesn't make sense when the teams are fairly simmilar (CS), certainly doesn't make sense when the teams are polar opposites either.
Next thing you know they'll start saying they want to make COUNTER-STRIKE the next E-Sport, as if it were ever possible to master the recoil spread of both the M4A1 and the AK-47! ONE GUN AT A TIME, PLEASE!
Team1 onos1; stomp
Team2 onos1; stomp
Team1 onos2; stomp
Team2 onos2; stomp
.....