E-Sports implausibility argument

ArmouredGRIFFONArmouredGRIFFON Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168635Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Particularly Veteran SC2 and FPS players flock here</div><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123998" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123998</a>

Please review my argument in the appropriate forum, I just wanted to bring it into your attention and get some feedback.

Comments

  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    edited November 2012
    This argument could use a rewrite....it is very nearly incomprehensible.

    I am (was) a very good starcraft 2 player and a pretty good ns2 player as well and I could tell you that any gold league starcraft player could command ns2 at a competitive level, sorry the rts element of the game is not even remotely comparable.

    For the most part in NS2 commanders follow a very specific tech path, usually determined by the team before the game even starts and the only dynamic decisions is where exactly to place your buildings.

    There are many games where people are required to learn more then 1 skill set, ns2 does not have nearly the depth of memorization as starcraft 2 and thus its easier to learn both skills because ultimately, aiming and movement (the most important aspects of each race) use shared skills even if its a bit different how you aim between melee and ranged. Thus although its definitely true that there could be players who were better at one side or the other, I disagree that people will become as specialized as you suggest, even at a currently unreached very high level. Unreal tournament or quake is an example of games where you had wildly varying skills needed in different weapon use.

    I also don't think your using the term skill cap correctly. Hopefully I have addressed the point your trying to make because as I said, it was written in a very confusing manner.
  • ArmouredGRIFFONArmouredGRIFFON Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168635Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2016927:date=Nov 9 2012, 01:56 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Nov 9 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This argument could use a rewrite....it is very nearly incomprehensible.

    I am (was) a very good starcraft 2 player and a pretty good ns2 player as well and I could tell you that any gold league starcraft player could command ns2 at a competitive level, sorry the rts element of the game is not even remotely comparable.

    For the most part in NS2 commanders follow a very specific tech path, usually determined by the team before the game even starts and the only dynamic decisions is where exactly to place your buildings.

    There are many games where people are required to learn more then 1 skill set, ns2 does not have nearly the depth of memorization as starcraft 2 and thus its easier to learn both skills because ultimately, aiming and movement (the most important aspects of each race) use shared skills even if its a bit different how you aim between melee and ranged. Thus although its definitely true that there could be players who were better at one side or the other, I disagree that people will become as specialized as you suggest, even at a currently unreached very high level. Unreal tournament or quake is an example of games where you had wildly varying skills needed in different weapon use.

    I also don't think your using the term skill cap correctly. Hopefully I have addressed the point your trying to make because as I said, it was written in a very confusing manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thank you. Just for your perusal I posted it on my phone ^.^.
  • 3del!3del! Join Date: 2009-05-11 Member: 67386Members
    commanding in ns2 is very much focused on communication and decision making. You must tell your marines/aliens where you want them, and what you want them to do. Also you need to give them information and use their information (structure health). In this regard it is not comparable to starcraft 2.
    From a mechanical point of view, a gold league starcraft player can surely do the job though.
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Members
    edited November 2012
    I don't understand your point. In NS1, most top players were top players as Marines AND as Aliens. It was not just one or the other.
    Besides, I'm pretty sure one tournament early in NS1 tried to do matches in the format "choose a map and side" (like you would play veil as marines and then your opponent would choose to play tanith as aliens) but it never really worked.
    There was also a mod for marines vs marines and aliens vs aliens and it basically sucked, because the 'shooter' aspect in NS2 relies on a range versus melee equilibrium which is utterly broken in all aspect if you make a mirror match.

    As a sidenote, teams usually have between 6 and 10 players in their roster so when they had enough players for a match they would change some players between marines and aliens in order to be at their maximum potential. For example imagine Fana was my best fade (jk) but he sucked as marine (nojk) he would spectate the alien round and someone else would play the alien round for the team.

    :D
  • MinstrelJCFMinstrelJCF Join Date: 2009-05-10 Member: 67379Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand your point. In NS1, most top players were top players as Marines AND as Aliens. It was not just one or the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Pretty much, there were hardly any competitive players who were good at one side and sucked at the other.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a sidenote, teams usually have between 6 and 10 players in their roster so when they had enough players for a match they would change some players between marines and aliens in order to be at their maximum potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Mostly if someone got benched it would be the commander for alien rounds, you'd rarely see big roster swaps because team coordination and cohesion is very important.

    There are much bigger issues as far as esports NS2 goes than the ones you listed.

    Bad performance, relatively small playerbase, near zero strategic depth or variety at the moment, harder to follow for spectators not familiar with the game due to asymmetry + RTS side, alien strategy centered around boring HP blob rather than fun to watch fades & lerks.

    TF2 has something around 1M unique players a week and out of that at the 'esports' / top competitive level there are only about 120 players in the US and EU combined, .00012%, NS2 obviously has a far lower playercount.
  • tarshishtarshish Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167725Members
    edited November 2012
    Commanding has only the name in common with any RTS. It's about as hard to command for either side as nicking an Onos with a single shotgun pellet. There's some communication and information relay going on at times, but for the most part it's a completely trivial affair - more so than even in NS1, where at least medding could get a bit messier and a little bit more emphasis was placed on where your base structures went to keep things defensible (and same for sieges&PGs).

    In NS1 it was really just a slot for your worst player as long as he could handle a bit of pressure (you usually groomed them a bit for the spot). For long term or 'good' commanders team chemistry and interaction was the only defining factor and ironically often how good they were outside the chair - commanding itself never had and still does not have a significant skillset.

    So NS is still an FPS despite being a far worse FPS than the first one. The only question worth asking is, is it a fun&worthwhile competitive FPS?
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    NS1 commanding actually took a decent amount of skill and thought, and IMO there were very few commanders even in NS1 that i would consider really good (Annihilator probably being the best NA comm IMO). NS2 commanding is arguably the most important role, atleast for marines ATM, even though the skill level req. isnt nearly as high.
  • tarshishtarshish Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167725Members
    edited November 2012
    Pugs aren't very representative of competitive play. A commander on a team didn't have to be the guy with the plan, didn't have to be the only one making calls and if you kept your comm for a while he was going to pick up on the things you do and work without being guided, to the point where it hardly mattered what kind of player he was when he started.

    You needed a few people with a clue, but it didn't much matter if one of those was in the chair or not. If we were short players and had to use marines worse than our commander, we'd swap those in - because there were only very marginal things we 'd be missing out on with an unpracticed comm while all the decision-making was fine with 2 or more people with a clue around.

    There were lots of draws to keeping a long-term comm, but skill was definitely not one of those.
  • NooB|etNooB|et Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170728Members
    But won't it be something if the team could pick which race they wanted.
    Then you could focus more on either Alien or Marine.

    Don't see how this is gonna work for pug games,
    but in competitive it would be different to see AvA or MvM lol.
  • duxdux Tea Lady Join Date: 2003-12-14 Member: 24371Members, NS2 Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=2017465:date=Nov 9 2012, 08:48 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 9 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 commanding actually took a decent amount of skill and thought, and IMO there were very few commanders even in NS1 that i would consider really good (Annihilator probably being the best NA comm IMO). NS2 commanding is arguably the most important role, atleast for marines ATM, even though the skill level req. isnt nearly as high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The res management and hive scouting is what I miss the most. Ah well.
  • nUfl0wnUfl0w Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42412Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2024428:date=Nov 15 2012, 07:43 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Nov 15 2012, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2024428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The res management and hive scouting is what I miss the most. Ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    by hive scouting you mean that the com tries to identify the starting hive? Apart from maps with fixed spawns, that is still possible. Granting, it is boring on tram, but on summit/veil you still can do it.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=2017465:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:48 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 9 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 commanding actually took a decent amount of skill and thought, and IMO there were very few commanders even in NS1 that i would consider really good (Annihilator probably being the best NA comm IMO). NS2 commanding is arguably the most important role, atleast for marines ATM, even though the skill level req. isnt nearly as high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Mogg. Never forget.
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