More deadly fades
Benson
Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Damage increase based on movement</div>The premise behind this idea is to make fades more deadly at higher skill levels.
There has been a great call for focus to come back in order to make the fade more viable, and since i believe that focus is kind of a bland upgrade I propose an alternate way to make the fade more deadly, without sacrificing an upgrade slot or forcing a certain hive choice just for fade
Basically, attacking while using movement abilities does more damage per hit, up to 50%.
I would like to see this primarily used with shadowstep so that it is viable on 1 hive. If a fade shadowsteps at a marine and swipes at the very end, that is when the fade is moving the fastest, he gets 50% bonus damage meaning he could 2 shot an armor 3 marine with 2 shadowsteps (iirc). Also, it requires more timing and actually using the fades abilities in a certain way, so the more skilled a player is with gauging where the marine is going to be, and the better they are with timing, they can actually stand a chance against SG marines.
I would also like to see this work with blink, but only get 25% bonus damage (100 dmg) so that a blinking fade can only 1 shot an un-armored marine (which isn't too much of a problem with armories healing armor). This way fades dont just blink in and out, rinse and repeat, but have it aas an option.
A side effect of this would be that the fade requires more energy management since each high-power attack would also require additional energy
Using this model, the fade would have enough killing power to justify how squishy he is, and would hopefully be seen more in the game, and become the terrifying assassin that he is supposed to be, as well as a very strong mid-game lifeform that is viable late game.
As a side note, the same can be done for the skulk with leap. After all, if aliens have these amazing movement mechanics, why not integrate them into their combat to scale late into the game?
Let me know what you think.
There has been a great call for focus to come back in order to make the fade more viable, and since i believe that focus is kind of a bland upgrade I propose an alternate way to make the fade more deadly, without sacrificing an upgrade slot or forcing a certain hive choice just for fade
Basically, attacking while using movement abilities does more damage per hit, up to 50%.
I would like to see this primarily used with shadowstep so that it is viable on 1 hive. If a fade shadowsteps at a marine and swipes at the very end, that is when the fade is moving the fastest, he gets 50% bonus damage meaning he could 2 shot an armor 3 marine with 2 shadowsteps (iirc). Also, it requires more timing and actually using the fades abilities in a certain way, so the more skilled a player is with gauging where the marine is going to be, and the better they are with timing, they can actually stand a chance against SG marines.
I would also like to see this work with blink, but only get 25% bonus damage (100 dmg) so that a blinking fade can only 1 shot an un-armored marine (which isn't too much of a problem with armories healing armor). This way fades dont just blink in and out, rinse and repeat, but have it aas an option.
A side effect of this would be that the fade requires more energy management since each high-power attack would also require additional energy
Using this model, the fade would have enough killing power to justify how squishy he is, and would hopefully be seen more in the game, and become the terrifying assassin that he is supposed to be, as well as a very strong mid-game lifeform that is viable late game.
As a side note, the same can be done for the skulk with leap. After all, if aliens have these amazing movement mechanics, why not integrate them into their combat to scale late into the game?
Let me know what you think.
Comments
I'm definitely on board with this. Encourages the use of the movement abilities and rewards skillful timing without making Fades/Skulks too easy to play.
I've been thinking about the possibility of this with leap, and think it would be very satisfying to get a 'critical' hit if you land a bite at the end of a leap.
+1
I don't want to see them get buffed; only nerfed.
I don't want to see them get buffed; only nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you've unfortunately seen 1 good fade vs a group of inexperienced marines. A fade does not need a nerf of ANY kind as they die in 2 direct shotgun hits (3 if the fade took carapace).
If those 5 marines were killed by 1 fade, they couldnt get more than 15 bullets a piece into that fade (thats about half a second of fire time btw). Not to mention that when marines get fully upgraded, It takes longer for a fade to kill a marine than it does for the marine to kill the fade.
I don't want to see them get buffed; only nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I call BS.
Unless of course its fana as a fade and a bunch of noob marines that just got the game.
If those 5 marines were killed by 1 fade, they couldnt get more than 15 bullets a piece into that fade (thats about half a second of fire time btw). Not to mention that when marines get fully upgraded, It takes longer for a fade to kill a marine than it does for the marine to kill the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I shot a Fade, point blank, 3 times with Shotgun, and he did not die.
Lies, sir, I found it needs 5. I had my friend stand perfectly still on a server he owns and I tested!
Lies, sir, I found it needs 5. I had my friend stand perfectly still on a server he owns and I tested!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A level 3 shottie does 220, a cara fade has an effective 450. do the math
plz go
I don't want to see them get buffed; only nerfed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are wrong.
You saw a fade kill 5 Marines who weren't working together as a Team.
<!--quoteo(post=2016393:date=Nov 9 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Nov 9 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2016393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I shot a Fade, point blank, 3 times with Shotgun, and he did not die.
Lies, sir, I found it needs 5. I had my friend stand perfectly still on a server he owns and I tested!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just so you know.
Its: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
Not: 1, 3, 5.
L2Count.
being able to kill something in less hits increases your survivability. dead things don't deal damage :P
i quite like this idea!
i quite like this idea!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how it's a good idea to have the main offensive units until Onos be thin as paper, though.
The problem is that pretty much the only unaware marines are new marines; most good players are constantly checking minimap, getting scans, and using sound. And if it's a lifeform whose specialty is taking out bad players, well... everything should really specialize in that already.
Exactly. And so here we are, discussing whether or not to expand on a Fade's role to make them effective against people who know what they're doing.
right. so the "fragile damage dealer" doesn't really seem to fit the ticket, which was the point of my original post. people who know what they're doing can drop Fades in 3 shotgun shells. it's still a glorified Skulk.
as for the OP, I think the idea could be toyed around with and it would certainly make Fades more deadly, but it's still just as much of a gamble to blink into their team and risk the initial engagement, which is my main concern with the Fade.
Fade is an assassin.. Get Speed,Regeneration,Camouflage and you can slay an infinite ammount of marines if you are just careful and hit all your attacks.. If you would get hit so you are about to die, Then just blink away with strange movement to a safe spot and heal up while you are camouflaged.. Fade is very easy to be good with since he can kill all marines rather quickly if he can aim his attacks, Only real problem are Exo suits since they have so much health and armor.
A good fade would never die if he got even more health and damage..
Agreed. That's why I think it'd be interesting to see something along the lines of what the OP was talking about. Fades don't really need any more health or armor, because a good assassin should never be hit. But a good assassin should also be able to take their targets down very quickly, not simply <i>as</i> fast as the standard, free lifeform you spawn in with.
I believe the current damage for a Fade's swipe is 60, it's puncture type dealing a +25% to marines. So, 75. The same as a well aimed Skulk bite. Granted, Fades don't suffer from the decreasing damage with decreasing accuracy that Skulks do, but still that really doesn't seem right.
I would agree that the fade should be able to take 4 shots from a shottie with cara, maybe just by increasing his armor values a bit.
I don't think the fade should be too tanky though, i think 4 shotgun blasts would be fairs
<!--quoteo(post=2017167:date=Nov 9 2012, 09:15 AM:name=ChaosXBeing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChaosXBeing @ Nov 9 2012, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the current damage for a Fade's swipe is 60, it's puncture type dealing a +25% to marines. So, 75. The same as a well aimed Skulk bite. Granted, Fades don't suffer from the decreasing damage with decreasing accuracy that Skulks do, but still that really doesn't seem right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
are you referring to glancing attacks? Fades have it as well.
Are you sure? I mean, I only glanced over this part in the lua code (I think in entity.lua, for those interested) where there's a whole method setup for Fades so that they won't deal glancing blows. I guess if it isn't implemented... Hmm. I usually either Kham or Gorge when on aliens so I don't get a lot of Fade play in, but I might just try this the next time I play.
I think that if a small survivability increase as well as this idea were to be implemented, it would make the fade what it should be (worth 50 res, and an amazing mid-game map control unit). And by small survivability increase, 3 1/2 - 4 direct shotgun blasts seems fair. The fade should not be able to be solo'd by any light marine, and a jp should make it even ground.
I also think that skulks would benefit from the same concept with leap, so landing a bite mid leap does 50% more damage (~115). This would make armor and welders very important as the marines would now be able to be 1 shot, just like skulks, if caught with low armor
Regardless, I think the OP's suggestion is great since Fades are a wasted life form at end-game.
+1
If marines were as hard to play, sure, maybe, but widening the skill gap won't do the game any good.
If marines were as hard to play, sure, maybe, but widening the skill gap won't do the game any good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not so much widening the skill gap, just evening out the skill ceiling so that fades can be more deadly at higher skill levels.
One of the big differences between marines and aliens is that the marine skill ceiling is non-existant as you can never aim perfectly, meaning you are always able to kill lifeforms faster and more effienciently, while aliens do not have this luxury.
A highly skilled fade is very dangerous to marines, obviously, but not nearly as dangerous as a highly skilled marine with a shotgun (hell, even with an lmg)
And besides, this would arguably make aliens easier to play as its really not that hard to grasp shadowstep at a marine and swipe during the animation to deal bonus damage, or leap at a marine and land a bite while still in the air to deal bonus damage.