I actually quite like the new system, as it synergizes well with the dodging aspect of the skulk. But, it requires that the map has lots of props of which the skulk can jump off, especially in the larger rooms. Some rooms are quite nice for this, for example Courtyard with the shipping containers. But some rooms are seriously lacking these (refinery) and it can make skulk play pretty tough.
<!--quoteo(post=2014321:date=Nov 7 2012, 12:39 PM:name=[AI]-infect)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([AI]-infect @ Nov 7 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Anyone know the command to show the speed meter?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2011102:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:56 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 5 2012, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i wonder... if someone bunny hops in circles to accelerate and then sonic boom across the map they're guaranteed to get into biting range of a marine and there's virtually nothing the marine can do... doesn't that remove the advantage of ranged weapon?
walljumping seems to be difficult just because the walls are strewn with obstacles, so i can see that it's more difficult than it 'should' be, but i don't really want to see linear acceleration bunny hopping (to the extent that i've seen it counterstrike etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Both require skill. I remember how incredibly frustrated I was when I first started learning bunnyhopping. It's not intuitive at all until you wrap your mind around the physics at play, at which point you just consistently begin to get better and better at it. It always remained skillful. In NS there was very rarely perfect flat ground, and you often would get advantages from bouncing unexpectedly off railings and obstacles.
Many experienced players liked bunnyhopping. You didn't have to rely on a wall being near by. It was a skill they already had mastered so we come into NS2 and there's something difficult and new and we have to start all over again. They try it a bit, get mixed results, and either call it too easy or too hard... but you VERY VERY rarely see someone who's mastered it. Don't get me wrong, the airstrafe system in Half Life was beautiful and gorgeously deep (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/XtremeJumpsEU" target="_blank">There is a large CS community</a> devoted entirely to using it for racing up elaborately made climb maps)
I just feel it's very premature to claim wall jumping is fully figured out yet, that it's universally worse than bunny hopping, or anything like that. I REALLY LIKE that wall jumping is in NS2. I look forward to spending a good amount of time mastering it and seeing others excel at it with me. I was good at bunny hopping, and I'm ###### at wall jumping, and that's fine. In fact, I'd argue that's good. If I want to claim to be skilled, make me master a new skill rather than relying on old skills I learned years ago for a totally different game.
All that being said, I'd REALLY like them to do something more creative with marine movement. I've uncovered, and have been exploiting a couple awkward glitches, but it's far from what I'd call really utilizing skill.
<!--quoteo(post=2014362:date=Nov 7 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 7 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many experienced players liked bunnyhopping. You didn't have to rely on a wall being near by. It was a skill they already had mastered so we come into NS2 and there's something difficult and new and we have to start all over again. They try it a bit, get mixed results, and either call it too easy or too hard... but you VERY VERY rarely see someone who's mastered it. Don't get me wrong, the airstrafe system in Half Life was beautiful and gorgeously deep (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/XtremeJumpsEU" target="_blank">There is a large CS community</a> devoted entirely to using it for racing up elaborately made climb maps)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh the old "CS Shake." I jump in and play some 1.6 from time to time.
<!--quoteo(post=2014362:date=Nov 8 2012, 07:07 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 8 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just feel it's very premature to claim wall jumping is fully figured out yet, that it's universally worse than bunny hopping, or anything like that. I REALLY LIKE that wall jumping is in NS2. I look forward to spending a good amount of time mastering it and seeing others excel at it with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's nothing wrong with having something fully figured out - mastering it is a different matter. I actually think the more intuitive it is to figure out the driving rules behind a mechanic the better. However, there are a number of core problems with the <b>current</b> implementation that i've outlined. Will have to see how andi ends up changing skulk movement the next build and whatnot.
Walljumping is great and it has the potential to be great as we've seen in previous beta walljump iterations. I think many experienced skulks would agree that a system with both bhop and good walljumping would be incredible.
<!--quoteo(post=2014399:date=Nov 7 2012, 08:44 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 7 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's nothing wrong with having something fully figured out - mastering it is a different matter. I actually think the more intuitive it is to figure out the driving rules behind a mechanic the better. However, there are a number of core problems with the <b>current</b> implementation that i've outlined. Will have to see how andi ends up changing skulk movement the next build and whatnot.
Walljumping is great and it has the potential to be great as we've seen in previous beta walljump iterations. I think many experienced skulks would agree that a system with both bhop and good walljumping would be incredible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree... i think the awkwardness in current walljump is when you're in combat and you fluff up a jump then even the most derpy marine in the world will kill you for free... and maybe it's just me - but it seems to fluff up far too often.
for example attempting to jump at the wall then jump back towards a marine, but it didn't work because you were actually already stuck to the bottom of the wall, so you just end up running up the wall wondering why you didn't get any air and the marine is like 'wtf' :/
I like the wall jumping mechanic as well, don't get me wrong. there's just nothing to master. even with simple aircontrol mechanics such as in NS1 or Quake 3, there is a mechanic that can always be improved upon - the airstrafe or circlejump. in NS2, there's nothing that can really be improved upon. in NS2, a great walljumper is the same as an amazing one. I agree with bunnyhop / airstrafe + walljump ideas as well, those would be amazing to try out.
<!--quoteo(post=2013701:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:33 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 7 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok! It seems like i didn't check the code deeply enough. The delayed timing code was only hooked up to debugspeed and not actual movement. <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// the duration of the bound (time from landing, to deepest point, to top) Skulk.kJumpTimingDuration = 0.65 .... function Skulk:GetSpeedDebugSpecial() return ConditionalValue(self:GetCanJump(), self:GetJumpTiming(), nil) end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
However, i still don't think this changes too much. The only ammendment/s i'd make is to say there are still 3 distinct ways of using walljump - downward momentum conversion, upward launching to confuse and position, parallel glancing jumps to chain heaps of speed. I'm making the distinction between downward and upward because they both rely on two different understandings. - Downward results from the player learning there is a downward to forward momentum mechanic. They learn that jumping down at a steep enough angle off vertical surfaces will give a bigger speed boost. - Upward results from the player learning they can launch in the direction they are looking. - The player cannot do both at the same time
<b>Unpredictability</b> Instead of a delayed timer encouraging players to move at abruptly different speeds, the ability to successfully walljump off a wall at any time and the magnitude of the boost/boost floor means players can still emulate very unpredictable speed paths.
<b>Skill curve</b> The first two steps are going to be closer together. At the worst, we still have a binary two step system with very limited organic improvement room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi elodea can you talk more about the strafe jumping, I can't seem to pull it off at the moment, but the other 2 I have been using to very very good effect. From the video you liked earlier, and what you talked about with regards to the upward and downward jumps, strafe jumping seems to be neither. How then it's the extra speed even obtained with it?
Also, is it accurate for me to say that in battle, it makes most sense to mix up the upward and downward jumps to confuse marines, rather then making ourselves predictable by using only one? Strafe jumping, then, would be more applicable to traversing the map at the greatest speeds, as opposed to being used on battle. Right?
I'm not being that successful with walljumps. How do you maintain your speed when you come down to the ground? I've been holding A or D to strafe as I jump too.
<!--quoteo(post=2014739:date=Nov 8 2012, 11:50 AM:name=Sooty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sooty @ Nov 8 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi elodea can you talk more about the strafe jumping, I can't seem to pull it off at the moment, but the other 2 I have been using to very very good effect. From the video you liked earlier, and what you talked about with regards to the upward and downward jumps, strafe jumping seems to be neither. How then it's the extra speed even obtained with it?
Also, is it accurate for me to say that in battle, it makes most sense to mix up the upward and downward jumps to confuse marines, rather then making ourselves predictable by using only one? Strafe jumping, then, would be more applicable to traversing the map at the greatest speeds, as opposed to being used on battle. Right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strafe jumping? Usually this refers to bhop, or do you actually mean the glancing, parallel jumps (these arn't strafe jumps at all, only need to use w, jump, and mouselook). To do them, you need to jump off the wall parallel with your body without actually touching it.
yeah, in battle you can certainly mix the two, although going above peoples heads is generally always going to be better! I was just pointing out from the design standpoint that it seemed unnecessarily complex to have two very distinct ways of moving as a skulk, or basically that downward momentum conversion seemed to add alot of noise for its benefit. <!--quoteo(post=2017220:date=Nov 10 2012, 04:48 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Nov 10 2012, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not being that successful with walljumps. How do you maintain your speed when you come down to the ground? I've been holding A or D to strafe as I jump too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can only really maintain your ground speed for a few jumps and need to chain walljumps together to get continuously decent speeds. As agiel said, you need to jump within a 0.3 second window from landing in order to maintain your speed. As for strafe jumping/bhop you can't do this in vanilla ns2 - all it does is slow you down (you lose speed when you change directions, move your mouse)
Looks like walljump is more complicated than I thought to achievement the maximum possible speeds.
But even in my imperfect knowledge of it, it's allowed me to travel faster, and be effective in combat. A walljump upwards lets me DFA marines, a more horizontal walljump allows me to curve behind marines, it's crazy effective.
Best part is it's simple for me. I could never really get Bhop down in NS1, but I got walljump for NS2 down within a game, really effective in combat and getting places faster.
If you bunnyhop up to a marine who isn't distracted he will tear you a new one; it's barely a step up from running in a straight line. You're moving in a way that's very predictable because the rate of turning is limited if you don't want to lose speed. There are some tricks to make it slightly less preditcable, but mostly it's just about exploiting the marines inattentiveness and "sprinting" up to the them when they are distracted or rounding a corner and bhoping away to safety, or just traveling a little faster around the map. Bunnyhopping isn't useful during actual combat unless you chain it with leap(using leap to pick up speed and bunnyhopping to preserve it).
Wallhopping has no major weak spot. It generates extremely unpredictable movement both horisontally and vertically(sometimes even unpredictable to the user!). You're jumping around like a spastic, your model often doesn't keep up(even seen skulks fly arse-first towards me). It's an undocumented and unintuitive feature that remains in constant flux from version to version; it looks and feels more like a bug than bunnyhopping does.
<!--quoteo(post=2018041:date=Nov 10 2012, 03:14 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 10 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strafe jumping? Usually this refers to bhop, or do you actually mean the glancing, parallel jumps (these arn't strafe jumps at all, only need to use w, jump, and mouselook). To do them, you need to jump off the wall parallel with your body without actually touching it.
yeah, in battle you can certainly mix the two, although going above peoples heads is generally always going to be better! I was just pointing out from the design standpoint that it seemed unnecessarily complex to have two very distinct ways of moving as a skulk, or basically that downward momentum conversion seemed to add alot of noise for its benefit.
You can only really maintain your ground speed for a few jumps and need to chain walljumps together to get continuously decent speeds. As agiel said, you need to jump within a 0.3 second window from landing in order to maintain your speed. As for strafe jumping/bhop you can't do this in vanilla ns2 - all it does is slow you down (you lose speed when you change directions, move your mouse)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed in the 3rd video that you linked that the skulk restarted the jump the moment he finds himself back to the usual 7.0 speed (i.e. once he's failed to keep up his speed). Is it correct to say that wallhop is being used by him to preserve the initial speed, which he achieved from long drops), and there's no real way to traverse the map faster without that initial speed boost from something like the wallhop?
I mean, I've been trying to wallhop all over to get to places faster, but i found out that I end up zig-zagging more often than not, and end up taking the same amount of time it takes to research a location as a skulk who's just running normally.
Great post elodea. Build 206 (around there) had the best walljumping in my opinion. It required timing and skill, but was still very easily exploitable (Things you could do to achieve speed 24).
Wall jumping skill curve is non-existent and any ole joe shmo can do it and get all the benefits from it.
Hopefully Sewlek will get his skulk movement back to it's original glory (But requiring a high level of skill).
Comments
Anyone know the command to show the speed meter?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
debugspeed
Note: cheats have to be enabled to use it
walljumping seems to be difficult just because the walls are strewn with obstacles, so i can see that it's more difficult than it 'should' be, but i don't really want to see linear acceleration bunny hopping (to the extent that i've seen it counterstrike etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both require skill. I remember how incredibly frustrated I was when I first started learning bunnyhopping. It's not intuitive at all until you wrap your mind around the physics at play, at which point you just consistently begin to get better and better at it. It always remained skillful. In NS there was very rarely perfect flat ground, and you often would get advantages from bouncing unexpectedly off railings and obstacles.
Many experienced players liked bunnyhopping. You didn't have to rely on a wall being near by. It was a skill they already had mastered so we come into NS2 and there's something difficult and new and we have to start all over again. They try it a bit, get mixed results, and either call it too easy or too hard... but you VERY VERY rarely see someone who's mastered it. Don't get me wrong, the airstrafe system in Half Life was beautiful and gorgeously deep (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/XtremeJumpsEU" target="_blank">There is a large CS community</a> devoted entirely to using it for racing up elaborately made climb maps)
I just feel it's very premature to claim wall jumping is fully figured out yet, that it's universally worse than bunny hopping, or anything like that. I REALLY LIKE that wall jumping is in NS2. I look forward to spending a good amount of time mastering it and seeing others excel at it with me. I was good at bunny hopping, and I'm ###### at wall jumping, and that's fine. In fact, I'd argue that's good. If I want to claim to be skilled, make me master a new skill rather than relying on old skills I learned years ago for a totally different game.
All that being said, I'd REALLY like them to do something more creative with marine movement. I've uncovered, and have been exploiting a couple awkward glitches, but it's far from what I'd call really utilizing skill.
Note: cheats have to be enabled to use it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got it, thanks!
Ahh the old "CS Shake." I jump in and play some 1.6 from time to time.
It's like parkour for the PC.
There's nothing wrong with having something fully figured out - mastering it is a different matter. I actually think the more intuitive it is to figure out the driving rules behind a mechanic the better.
However, there are a number of core problems with the <b>current</b> implementation that i've outlined. Will have to see how andi ends up changing skulk movement the next build and whatnot.
Walljumping is great and it has the potential to be great as we've seen in previous beta walljump iterations. I think many experienced skulks would agree that a system with both bhop and good walljumping would be incredible.
However, there are a number of core problems with the <b>current</b> implementation that i've outlined. Will have to see how andi ends up changing skulk movement the next build and whatnot.
Walljumping is great and it has the potential to be great as we've seen in previous beta walljump iterations. I think many experienced skulks would agree that a system with both bhop and good walljumping would be incredible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree... i think the awkwardness in current walljump is when you're in combat and you fluff up a jump then even the most derpy marine in the world will kill you for free... and maybe it's just me - but it seems to fluff up far too often.
for example attempting to jump at the wall then jump back towards a marine, but it didn't work because you were actually already stuck to the bottom of the wall, so you just end up running up the wall wondering why you didn't get any air and the marine is like 'wtf' :/
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// the duration of the bound (time from landing, to deepest point, to top)
Skulk.kJumpTimingDuration = 0.65
....
function Skulk:GetSpeedDebugSpecial()
return ConditionalValue(self:GetCanJump(), self:GetJumpTiming(), nil)
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
However, i still don't think this changes too much. The only ammendment/s i'd make is to say there are still 3 distinct ways of using walljump - downward momentum conversion, upward launching to confuse and position, parallel glancing jumps to chain heaps of speed. I'm making the distinction between downward and upward because they both rely on two different understandings.
- Downward results from the player learning there is a downward to forward momentum mechanic. They learn that jumping down at a steep enough angle off vertical surfaces will give a bigger speed boost.
- Upward results from the player learning they can launch in the direction they are looking.
- The player cannot do both at the same time
<b>Unpredictability</b>
Instead of a delayed timer encouraging players to move at abruptly different speeds, the ability to successfully walljump off a wall at any time and the magnitude of the boost/boost floor means players can still emulate very unpredictable speed paths.
<b>Skill curve</b>
The first two steps are going to be closer together. At the worst, we still have a binary two step system with very limited organic improvement room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi elodea can you talk more about the strafe jumping, I can't seem to pull it off at the moment, but the other 2 I have been using to very very good effect. From the video you liked earlier, and what you talked about with regards to the upward and downward jumps, strafe jumping seems to be neither. How then it's the extra speed even obtained with it?
Also, is it accurate for me to say that in battle, it makes most sense to mix up the upward and downward jumps to confuse marines, rather then making ourselves predictable by using only one? Strafe jumping, then, would be more applicable to traversing the map at the greatest speeds, as opposed to being used on battle. Right?
Also, is it accurate for me to say that in battle, it makes most sense to mix up the upward and downward jumps to confuse marines, rather then making ourselves predictable by using only one? Strafe jumping, then, would be more applicable to traversing the map at the greatest speeds, as opposed to being used on battle. Right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strafe jumping? Usually this refers to bhop, or do you actually mean the glancing, parallel jumps (these arn't strafe jumps at all, only need to use w, jump, and mouselook). To do them, you need to jump off the wall parallel with your body without actually touching it.
yeah, in battle you can certainly mix the two, although going above peoples heads is generally always going to be better! I was just pointing out from the design standpoint that it seemed unnecessarily complex to have two very distinct ways of moving as a skulk, or basically that downward momentum conversion seemed to add alot of noise for its benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=2017220:date=Nov 10 2012, 04:48 AM:name=Desther)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Desther @ Nov 10 2012, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2017220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not being that successful with walljumps. How do you maintain your speed when you come down to the ground? I've been holding A or D to strafe as I jump too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can only really maintain your ground speed for a few jumps and need to chain walljumps together to get continuously decent speeds. As agiel said, you need to jump within a 0.3 second window from landing in order to maintain your speed. As for strafe jumping/bhop you can't do this in vanilla ns2 - all it does is slow you down (you lose speed when you change directions, move your mouse)
But even in my imperfect knowledge of it, it's allowed me to travel faster, and be effective in combat. A walljump upwards lets me DFA marines, a more horizontal walljump allows me to curve behind marines, it's crazy effective.
Best part is it's simple for me. I could never really get Bhop down in NS1, but I got walljump for NS2 down within a game, really effective in combat and getting places faster.
Wallhopping has no major weak spot. It generates extremely unpredictable movement both horisontally and vertically(sometimes even unpredictable to the user!). You're jumping around like a spastic, your model often doesn't keep up(even seen skulks fly arse-first towards me). It's an undocumented and unintuitive feature that remains in constant flux from version to version; it looks and feels more like a bug than bunnyhopping does.
yeah, in battle you can certainly mix the two, although going above peoples heads is generally always going to be better! I was just pointing out from the design standpoint that it seemed unnecessarily complex to have two very distinct ways of moving as a skulk, or basically that downward momentum conversion seemed to add alot of noise for its benefit.
You can only really maintain your ground speed for a few jumps and need to chain walljumps together to get continuously decent speeds. As agiel said, you need to jump within a 0.3 second window from landing in order to maintain your speed. As for strafe jumping/bhop you can't do this in vanilla ns2 - all it does is slow you down (you lose speed when you change directions, move your mouse)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noticed in the 3rd video that you linked that the skulk restarted the jump the moment he finds himself back to the usual 7.0 speed (i.e. once he's failed to keep up his speed). Is it correct to say that wallhop is being used by him to preserve the initial speed, which he achieved from long drops), and there's no real way to traverse the map faster without that initial speed boost from something like the wallhop?
I mean, I've been trying to wallhop all over to get to places faster, but i found out that I end up zig-zagging more often than not, and end up taking the same amount of time it takes to research a location as a skulk who's just running normally.
Wall jumping skill curve is non-existent and any ole joe shmo can do it and get all the benefits from it.
Hopefully Sewlek will get his skulk movement back to it's original glory (But requiring a high level of skill).