Your clearly completely clueless when it comes to making changes to the fade, not bothering to waste my time trying to explain why changing one thing will affect all the others anymore, apparently thats too advanced.
And you might check your numbers, w3 shotgun still cannot 2 shot a carapace fade, and a3 still dies in 4 swipes. Guess its more important to try to make me look wrong and make your reply colorful.
<!--quoteo(post=2014525:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:16 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you might check your numbers, w3 shotgun still cannot 2 shot a carapace fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn near does, basically takes one more shot. Regardless, for a hit and run class to be forced to take carapace...meaning actually hit and run tactics require you going all the way back to the hive...seems very inefficient.
<!--quoteo(post=2014512:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 7 2012, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm so glad the past two pages have been bringing up the need for proper role implementation in the name of soft RPS mechanics! :)
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ding.
Which is why we want a team of Onos' to fail while a balanced team including Fades and Lerks to succeed.
<!--quoteo(post=2014525:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:16 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your clearly completely clueless<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We are having polite adult discussion here and do not need you.
The chief problem with the fade comes from outside itself.
The issue is the mid-game itself is irrelevant beacuse the tech trees and progression is so highly compressed that both teams are far better off stretching out the early game by a few minutes and skipping mid-game tech entirely. Why get an Fade when an Onos is 2 minutes away?
<!--quoteo(post=2014525:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:16 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your clearly completely clueless when it comes to making changes to the fade, not bothering to waste my time trying to explain why changing one thing will affect all the others anymore, apparently thats too advanced.
And you might check your numbers, w3 shotgun still cannot 2 shot a carapace fade, and a3 still dies in 4 swipes. Guess its more important to try to make me look wrong and make your reply colorful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 shots is <b>enough</b> to warrant a justified RETREAT.
The point is how much damage a Fade is able to take before having to retreat. 2 Shots is just uncalled for in it's current "non-Focus-Swipe" state.
But if Focus were to be in, I'd say 2 Shots is justified considering that's how many Swipes it'd take for a Focus Swipe to kill an ARMOR 3 Marine in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2014512:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 7 2012, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm so glad the past two pages have been bringing up the need for proper role implementation in the name of soft RPS mechanics! :)
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Interesting.</b>
Would the same logic have to apply to Marines though? A team of shotgunners doom'd to fail? (please don't say "Nope" in the name of asymmetry :C )
So the problem is Fades <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->lacking<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Hit-/Run abilties.
If a <u>team</u> of Focus-Fades is the concern, then let us <b>TWEAK</b> Focus-Swipe <u>to work with team-play in mind</u> with a <i>possible</i> solution:
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SOLUTION #1.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->) Instead of the <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->NS1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-esque Focus ability where <u>1 Focus SWIPE</u> = <i>2 Regular Swipes</i>, I would introduce a <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--><u>SEPARATE Focus-FADE TIER</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> that does <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>SUBSTANTIAL</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Armor</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> damage.
<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->FORETHOUGHT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Although this tier of Focus-Fade would be able to inflict HEALTH damage, the HEALTH damage would only INCREASE INCREMENTALLY with each successful hit. The current Fades would still exist. Damage values are not important. The point of this is to discuss PRIMARY ROLES for both the FOCUS-FADE and CURRENT FADE.
Here's how I see this solution in play in the following scenario:
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SCENE 1<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> <ul><li>Player #1 spends res on the FOCUS-FADE tier.</li><li>Player #2 spends res on a (current) Vanilla Fade.</li></ul>
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SCENE 2<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u> <ul><li>Player #1 (FOCUS-FADE) BLINKS into Marine territory and FOCUS-SWIPES a Marine. </li><li>Knowing that a Focus-Fade does MORE <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->ARMOR<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> DAMAGE than <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><i>HEALTH</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Player #1 <i><u>BLINKS OUT</u></i> after doing considerable damage to the Marine's armor (armor damage role stressed)</li><li>Player #2 (VANILLA-FADE) BLINKS into Marine territory and VANILLA-SWIPES (LOL) the Marine, witnessing that the VANILLA-FADE does MORE <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><b>HEALTH</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> DAMAGE than <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><i>ARMOR</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> damage, and kills the Marine.</li></ul>
<i><u><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ALTERNATIVE SCENE<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (broader Kharaa teamplay)</u></i> <ul><li>Player #1, the HERO FOCUS-FADE, BLINKS into Marine territory and FOCUS-SWIPES a Marine (Severe armor damage), and BLINKS OUT.</li><li>A Skulk/Lerk moves IN for the FINAL HIT with Skulk Bite/Xenocide/Lerk Spores/Lerk Spikes.</li></ul>
<ul><li>The point of 2 separate tiers of Fade for the Kharaa means that the Kharaa are <b><!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->discouraged from all becoming a Focus-Fade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>, as <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><u><b>it would pose no advantage</b></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> more than if they were to change and variate the types of lifeforms in the battlefield, each with a specific role in mind. </li><li>The nature of 2 separate tiers of Fade <u><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->encourages Hit-and-Run<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u> gameplay (as described above.) </li><li>A Focus-Fade could have a slightly different appearance. Perhaps a slightly different colored Blink/Shadow-step effect.</li></ul>
<b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->END OF SOLUTION #1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
I can't take those randomly coloured font size variable posts seriously.
Regarding the fade, I wouldn't mind seeing some alternative healing method. Getting two swipes in and then having to go running back to sit in the hive for a few minutes makes the fade feel pretty pathetic.
<!--quoteo(post=2014512:date=Nov 8 2012, 08:02 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 8 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making gorge and lerk more appealing and useful would help.
It might be useful to consider how long an engagement would have to be between the fades and the marines. Begrudgingly, i have to admit that it is somewhat balanced before armor level 3, but the fade should really do significantly more damage vs fleshies than the skulk, it's bigger and more of a badass, gimping it like this is completely contrary to its character. It should be doing 100-125 damage so that it can 2 hit kill a1 and a2 marines respectively since from what i've read here focus isn't a priority for UWE
An extra 35-70 health would prevent most of the unfair 2 hit shotgun kills, specifically: +35 would prevent 2 hit kills for w0-w1 and for w3 vs carapace; +52 would prevent 2 hit kills with w0-w2 and make w0 take 4 shots barely vs carapace; +69 would only make the aim requirements tougher; +85 would require 3 shots for w0-w3 and more precision vs carapace.
For reference: Combining health with armor upgrades the marine end up with 160,200,240,280 health. The fade does 82.25 dmg to meat. The skulk does 75 damage to anything.
To kill a marine <!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->skulk vs a0-a1: 3 bites * .45s = 1.35s with 1 33% for a0 and 1 66% for a1 glancing blow skulk vs a2-a3: 4 bites * .45s = 1.8s with 0 for a3 and 1 33% for a2 glancing blow fade vs a0: 2 swipes * .65s = 1.3s with 0 glancing blows fade vs a1-a2: 3 swipes * .65s = 1.95s with 0 for a2 and 1 66% for a1 glancing blow fade vs a3: 4 swipes * .65s = 2.6s with 1 66% damage glancing blows<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
To kill a fade <!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->rifle w0: 35 shots * .1s = 3.5s rifle w1: 32 shots * .1s = 3.2s rifle w2: 30 shots * .1s = 3.0s rifle w3: 27 shots * .1s = 2.7s shotgun w0-w3: 2 shots * .9s = 1.8s missing 1,2,3,5 out of 20 pellets total depending on weapon level<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
I have never seen a fade get one or two shotted by a SG. I've noticed the shotgun in NS2 is weaker than in NS1. Fades are still powerful, mix up blinking in the air and run key and you will be very difficult to hit. In NS1 a classic Fade technique was to keep blinking high in the air and use self heal ability. NS2 fade can't heal them selves so you have to go to base more often. Just be a hard target.... blink like a madman.
<!--quoteo(post=2015071:date=Nov 8 2012, 02:22 AM:name=kalv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kalv @ Nov 8 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have never seen a fade get one or two shotted by a SG. I've noticed the shotgun in NS2 is weaker than in NS1. Fades are still powerful, mix up blinking in the air and run key and you will be very difficult to hit. In NS1 a classic Fade technique was to keep blinking high in the air and use self heal ability. NS2 fade can't heal them selves so you have to go to base more often. Just be a hard target.... blink like a madman.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The shotgun in NS2 does the same damage as the shotgun in NS1.
-Return base Fade health to 300/150 and 300/250 with Carapace. -Move Blink research to Hive 1. -Make Metabolize available for research at Hive 2.
<!--quoteo(post=2015117:date=Nov 8 2012, 08:03 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 8 2012, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The shotgun in NS2 does the same damage as the shotgun in NS1.
-Return base Fade health to 300/150 and 300/250 with Carapace. -Move Blink research to Hive 1. -Make Metabolize available for research at Hive 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the survivability buffs, but they need to counter-balance with the 800 pound Onos in the room.
I'd rather see 400 health come off the Onos, 50 armor added onto the Fade and 25 Health and 25 Armor onto the Lerk.
I think the issue is that fades had a core role in the game before. With focus, a fade had that impact to get in and get out, while holding off marines. In NS2, marines with armor 2 or even less can hold off a fade with proper aim. Since they are so weak now, they no longer have a real role (early mid game tender), its more economical to save for onos. This right here is the real problem.
So in short:
Saving for onos = better (more map control, fight multiple marines, kill buildings faster). Alien resources/player resources in general are slow gaining = Better to save for big items No res for players on kills = No point in going fade and then killing marines to make back the cost, same with Shotguns being not very economical due to how fragile marines can be
Remember when Fades almost always required shotguns? Not in NS2.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2015016:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:01 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 7 2012, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2015016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making gorge and lerk more appealing and useful would help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it would help for the uncoordinated, but for the half coordinated alien team it makes no difference. If a mass lifeform strat has no downside then there's no reason not to go for it? Imagine if exos could build, repair, phase, and be beaconed? You wouldn't see anything else but a whole team of them in any setting, ever. Making them a glass canon doesn't make sense visually when you look at the model.. but it makes total sense gameplay wise.
Its the downsides of each weapon and lifeform which keep it in it's place for the sake of soft Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics - one lifeform or weapon shouldn't be the jack of all trades. When there's a hiccup in this (Shotgun spread, GL player damage, or Fade's lack of a downside when its not made of paper or ruined by the aforementioned shotgun spread) you can expect a sense of imbalance and then the following reaction to the imbalance - often addressing the symptom instead of the root cause, which is proper roles.
The only reason i ever became a forumite 2 and half years ago was to constantly draw attention to the importance of proper implementation of soft RPS mechanics.. they are so fundamental and essential! Especially in a resource economy that has an entire team able to purchase things at the same exact time - 4 fades on a team instead of 1 like in ns1. You don't even have to eradicate these tactics as an option.. <b>just make them high risk through soft mechanics.</b>
See sixtymanwatt's response above (sry dont mean to single you out), he is addressing the symptom, naturally, and all this would do is make it's accessibility easier, yet completely imbalance higher levels of play (skilled players wreck whole teams twice as much) ... Address the role implementation and you dont have to do these things.
The suggestions are getting out of hand here. We need to keep our envisioned changes small because thats how you balance a game, esp one that is very nearly balanced already.
Changes like a 50 or LESS base armor boost would allow for the use of regen on fade, or cara to be a bit stronger against multiple marines. Focus would be best since it doenst really change dps just gives fade more mobility based dps so it would remain a very skill based class.
Changes to the fades abilities or suggestions that we need to give the fade 50 hp and 100 armor more are just unfeasible. You don't balance a game by making giant changes and just seeing how it works out.
The suggestions are all good, I would LOVE to see focus come back to the game....
But here's my little one, it's really simple to do and doesn't require any large recalibration. (Sorry if it's been posted before I skipped about 5 pages, I want to see this resolved.)
<b>My Solution</b> Give fades more health... That's it. +100 at least.
<b>WHY?!</b> Because they're weak as ######. Fades barely have more health than a Lerk, this is absolutely insane... Look at the res cost of units and compare it to the effectiveness, you can either die really fast and do nothing as a fade or save 25 more res (Which is pretty easy) and have way more health and presence.
<b>A quick number peek!</b> LERK 125/50
FADE 250/50
ONOS 1300/600
So the fades has 125 more health than a lerk... is a bigger target and does only 15 more damage per basic attack (not considering lerk can easily spike as it approaches or runs).
<!--quoteo(post=2012133:date=Nov 5 2012, 11:19 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 5 2012, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed. :-P No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.
Instead address the improper role implementation that comes from the current shotgun, and increase the skill required to use it at it's most effective level, simply by increasing it's bullet count and width of spread in a ratio that's proportional to it's current damage. Now you dont need to lessen shotgun ammo count, ensures proper soft RPS, and as a byproduct increases fade and lerk viability without touching their skill floors or ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have been gone for a week but I wanted to address what you said Iron. I partially agree with your idea of re-balancing the shotgun so that it isn't such an "instant win" gun.
Now, if the developers were smart (which I think they are) they would play their own game called Natural Selection 1, and take notes about how they did the shotgun in that game. The shotgun had a wider spread (It wasn't the rifle that is ns2 shotgun), and it shot considerably faster to make up for this wider spread. What did this create? It created a gun that relied more on CONSISTENCY rather than getting one lucky shot. Consequently, it also made it easier for lifeforms to close the gap on a marine since the shotgun had such a large spread (<b>No more getting sniped from 15 feet away</b> when you're a skulk engaging an invincible shotgun marine). Once I get a shotgun in a pub I pretty much will only ever die if I make a mistake (Which is hard to even do with current shotgun mechanics).
I am getting very agitated by day 1 noobs pulling off stupid luck shots on my skulks and etc. The shotgun is painfully easy and stupid at the moment. It needs to still be AS POWERFUL as it is now, but require more consistency. The easy solution to this is to increase the shotguns rate of fire and also increase it's spread. No additional ammo needed. Just balance it exactly like how it was in NS1. It could still 1 shot skulks when they got close (Which added more strategy in how long you waited to pull your trigger).
DEVS please read this... someone please get their attention on this topic. The shotgun is broken right now. I can kill 8 skulks in 8 shots at the moment... that shouldn't be happening....
<b>You'd figure the developers would test the rate of fire of the shotgun at least in one public build in over 2 years of beta... but nope. I feel like it has never been changed due to aesthetics, or a need to re-do animations or something. It could greatly benefit the game, and it's balance, if spread / ROF were seriously looked at. I am sure it's been brought up countless times on internal and public. Listen to us already.</b>
EDIT: IIRC the shotguns rate of fire was actually slightly DECREASED in the last build. To the untrained player you wouldn't notice (Even to the trained player), but I noticed a change in the ROF from a couple builds ago. My friends call me the human metronome (Due to my uncanny steady rhythm while playing instruments) I notice timings even on extremely small scales. Shotgun now fires slightly slower and it wasn't added to the build changelog. Just like the increase to jetpack acceleration wasn't added to the changelog from builds ago either.
Not to start drama but I am slightly perplexed that dragon doesn't realize a carapace fade can get wrecked in 2 shotgun blasts... I do it all the time... and don't get mad when he tries to insult your intelligence... if you don't worship him as all knowing god and tell him you are unworthy he will hate you.
But if you want to reduce the idiocy that is the NS2 tech explosion then make it so you need gorges to build harvesters, at the cost of their own pres (commanders would have to start with less res or make cysts cost 2 res instead). That would be the only additional structure that gorges could build, but it would make it so that not everyone can go fade at the same time. This is exactly how NS1 worked. The reason you didn't have half the team going fade is due to 2-3 gorges going out to build harvesters early. I doubt this will ever happen because it goes against UWE's current BAD design... but maybe they should think about all the problems they have made for the game and do something heroic. They should give us what we want, and stop claiming brilliance to the broken alien commander system (Really the only thing broken about it is not allowing gorges to drop hives / harvesters). I don't see the logic in disallowing gorges to build those structures. Just because somebody said "The alien comm does everything now" we have to have a broken game with problems like tech explosions? We could easily allow gorges to have some of that khamming ability and it wouldn't break the game. I do see problems with the TRES / PRES system that would arise, but with a little thought and tweaking we could come up with a system that works. (sorry about going off topic) just wanted to address the fades / tech explosion problem.
This game has simply no counters. Like "shotgun counters fades". Curently its "Shotgun counters everything".
Its fine to research Shotguns to counter fades. Fades have simply to learn to not fight shotgunners. Make Shotguns <u><i>stronger</i></u> vs fades and other weapons less effective vs fades. That would improved the strategic depths alot. Just opened a Thread about that : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124111" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124111</a>
i have to admit you make a good point about how shotgun could do with requiring more consistency than luckshot.
especially when you play as skulk, dying in a single hit at anything other than point blank is very frustrating and there's not a lot you can do to avoid it... but obviously i want the shotgun to retain it's average power, while maintaining a significant advantage over AR at close range/weakness at mid-long range :p
<!--quoteo(post=2012011:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:49 PM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 5 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, NS2 is not NS1 with upgraded graphics. Second of all, my "join" date has nothing to do with me not having been in the beta myself and played for months. Third and for most, most of the posts on the forums at the moment are whiners, on so many aspects of the game that it kinda starts getting repetitiv.
Like alot of other players have said "its way to early to start screaming about balance issues" - The most ironic part were the posts that came up within the first two days as "balance issues" - Getting abit sick of it.
I'm not saying that I'm against change, but some people are just throwing in ideas that are far too ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you had been on the forums, or in any way tracking the development process of the game through the beta, you would know that conversations on balance have never stopped. You're not necessarily responding to day one whiners. Many of us have been having an ongoing discussion on "balance" the whole time.
Given what I know about how this game progressed from build to build, it's not an unfair assessment to say there are still some lingering balance issues to address.
<!--quoteo(post=2018257:date=Nov 10 2012, 09:21 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Nov 10 2012, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2018257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i><u>Call it blasphemy</u></i></b>
But if you want to reduce the idiocy that is the NS2 tech explosion then make it so you need gorges to build harvesters, at the cost of their own pres (commanders would have to start with less res or make cysts cost 2 res instead). That would be the only additional structure that gorges could build, but it would make it so that not everyone can go fade at the same time. This is exactly how NS1 worked. The reason you didn't have half the team going fade is due to 2-3 gorges going out to build harvesters early. I doubt this will ever happen because it goes against UWE's current BAD design... but maybe they should think about all the problems they have made for the game and do something heroic. They should give us what we want, and stop claiming brilliance to the broken alien commander system (Really the only thing broken about it is not allowing gorges to drop hives / harvesters). I don't see the logic in disallowing gorges to build those structures. Just because somebody said "The alien comm does everything now" we have to have a broken game with problems like tech explosions? We could easily allow gorges to have some of that khamming ability and it wouldn't break the game. I do see problems with the TRES / PRES system that would arise, but with a little thought and tweaking we could come up with a system that works. (sorry about going off topic) just wanted to address the fades / tech explosion problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your points on shotguns, but I don't think the Alien tech explosion is going to be that simple to fix and even if you fix the Alien tech explosion problem, there is still the problem of Marine P-res which has a very similar problem. Gorges definitely need more ###### to do (more buildings, maybe let them build Crags, Shifts, Shades, and drop eggs?) and as much as I hated RFK, it might be the only solution (at least for Aliens, RFK on Marines just creates turtles) at this point or at least a small band-aid.
Or they could ditch the Alien commander and Marine P-res... that would work too.
Comments
And you might check your numbers, w3 shotgun still cannot 2 shot a carapace fade, and a3 still dies in 4 swipes.
Guess its more important to try to make me look wrong and make your reply colorful.
Damn near does, basically takes one more shot. Regardless, for a hit and run class to be forced to take carapace...meaning actually hit and run tactics require you going all the way back to the hive...seems very inefficient.
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ding.
Which is why we want a team of Onos' to fail while a balanced team including Fades and Lerks to succeed.
goteamalien
We are having polite adult discussion here and do not need you.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Get. Out.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The issue is the mid-game itself is irrelevant beacuse the tech trees and progression is so highly compressed that both teams are far better off stretching out the early game by a few minutes and skipping mid-game tech entirely. Why get an Fade when an Onos is 2 minutes away?
And you might check your numbers, w3 shotgun still cannot 2 shot a carapace fade, and a3 still dies in 4 swipes.
Guess its more important to try to make me look wrong and make your reply colorful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 shots is <b>enough</b> to warrant a justified RETREAT.
The point is how much damage a Fade is able to take before having to retreat. 2 Shots is just uncalled for in it's current "non-Focus-Swipe" state.
But if Focus were to be in, I'd say 2 Shots is justified considering that's how many Swipes it'd take for a Focus Swipe to kill an ARMOR 3 Marine in NS1.
And also
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->Have<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->some<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->more<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->colors<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Interesting.</b>
Would the same logic have to apply to Marines though? A team of shotgunners doom'd to fail? (please don't say "Nope" in the name of asymmetry :C )
So the problem is Fades <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->lacking<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Hit-/Run abilties.
If a <u>team</u> of Focus-Fades is the concern, then let us <b>TWEAK</b> Focus-Swipe <u>to work with team-play in mind</u> with a <i>possible</i> solution:
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SOLUTION #1.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->) Instead of the <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->NS1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-esque Focus ability where <u>1 Focus SWIPE</u> = <i>2 Regular Swipes</i>, I would introduce a <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--><u>SEPARATE Focus-FADE TIER</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> that does <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>SUBSTANTIAL</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><b>Armor</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> damage.
<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->FORETHOUGHT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:
Although this tier of Focus-Fade would be able to inflict HEALTH damage, the HEALTH damage would only INCREASE INCREMENTALLY with each successful hit. The current Fades would still exist. Damage values are not important. The point of this is to discuss PRIMARY ROLES for both the FOCUS-FADE and CURRENT FADE.
Here's how I see this solution in play in the following scenario:
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SCENE 1<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
<ul><li>Player #1 spends res on the FOCUS-FADE tier.</li><li>Player #2 spends res on a (current) Vanilla Fade.</li></ul>
<u><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->SCENE 2<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>
<ul><li>Player #1 (FOCUS-FADE) BLINKS into Marine territory and FOCUS-SWIPES a Marine. </li><li>Knowing that a Focus-Fade does MORE <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->ARMOR<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> DAMAGE than <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><i>HEALTH</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, Player #1 <i><u>BLINKS OUT</u></i> after doing considerable damage to the Marine's armor (armor damage role stressed)</li><li>Player #2 (VANILLA-FADE) BLINKS into Marine territory and VANILLA-SWIPES (LOL) the Marine, witnessing that the VANILLA-FADE does MORE <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><b>HEALTH</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> DAMAGE than <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro--><i>ARMOR</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> damage, and kills the Marine.</li></ul>
<i><u><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->ALTERNATIVE SCENE<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> (broader Kharaa teamplay)</u></i>
<ul><li>Player #1, the HERO FOCUS-FADE, BLINKS into Marine territory and FOCUS-SWIPES a Marine (Severe armor damage), and BLINKS OUT.</li><li>A Skulk/Lerk moves IN for the FINAL HIT with Skulk Bite/Xenocide/Lerk Spores/Lerk Spikes.</li></ul>
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->FINAL THOUGHTS<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:
<ul><li>The point of 2 separate tiers of Fade for the Kharaa means that the Kharaa are <b><!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->discouraged from all becoming a Focus-Fade<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>, as <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro--><u><b>it would pose no advantage</b></u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> more than if they were to change and variate the types of lifeforms in the battlefield, each with a specific role in mind.
</li><li>The nature of 2 separate tiers of Fade <u><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->encourages Hit-and-Run<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u> gameplay (as described above.)
</li><li>A Focus-Fade could have a slightly different appearance. Perhaps a slightly different colored Blink/Shadow-step effect.</li></ul>
<b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->END OF SOLUTION #1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Regarding the fade, I wouldn't mind seeing some alternative healing method. Getting two swipes in and then having to go running back to sit in the hive for a few minutes makes the fade feel pretty pathetic.
Maybe let fades suck hp out of res nodes?
Better than a simple wall-of-text that no one notices.
Try reading it.
Making gorge and lerk more appealing and useful would help.
Begrudgingly, i have to admit that it is somewhat balanced before armor level 3, but the fade should really do significantly more damage vs fleshies than the skulk, it's bigger and more of a badass, gimping it like this is completely contrary to its character. It should be doing 100-125 damage so that it can 2 hit kill a1 and a2 marines respectively since from what i've read here focus isn't a priority for UWE
An extra 35-70 health would prevent most of the unfair 2 hit shotgun kills, specifically:
+35 would prevent 2 hit kills for w0-w1 and for w3 vs carapace;
+52 would prevent 2 hit kills with w0-w2 and make w0 take 4 shots barely vs carapace;
+69 would only make the aim requirements tougher;
+85 would require 3 shots for w0-w3 and more precision vs carapace.
For reference: Combining health with armor upgrades the marine end up with 160,200,240,280 health. The fade does 82.25 dmg to meat. The skulk does 75 damage to anything.
To kill a marine
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->skulk vs a0-a1: 3 bites * .45s = 1.35s with 1 33% for a0 and 1 66% for a1 glancing blow
skulk vs a2-a3: 4 bites * .45s = 1.8s with 0 for a3 and 1 33% for a2 glancing blow
fade vs a0: 2 swipes * .65s = 1.3s with 0 glancing blows
fade vs a1-a2: 3 swipes * .65s = 1.95s with 0 for a2 and 1 66% for a1 glancing blow
fade vs a3: 4 swipes * .65s = 2.6s with 1 66% damage glancing blows<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
To kill a fade
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->rifle w0: 35 shots * .1s = 3.5s
rifle w1: 32 shots * .1s = 3.2s
rifle w2: 30 shots * .1s = 3.0s
rifle w3: 27 shots * .1s = 2.7s
shotgun w0-w3: 2 shots * .9s = 1.8s missing 1,2,3,5 out of 20 pellets total depending on weapon level<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
To kill a fade w/ carapace
<!--fonto:Lucida Console--><span style="font-family:Lucida Console"><!--/fonto-->rifle w0: 45 shots * .1s = 4.5s
rifle w1: 41 shots * .1s = 4.1s
rifle w2: 38 shots * .1s = 3.8s
rifle w3: 35 shots * .1s = 3.5s
shotgun w0-w2: 3 shots * .9s = 2.7s missing 3,6,9 out of 30 pellets
shotgun w3: 2 shots * .9s = 1.8s missing 2 out of 20 pellets<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
Hope the data is useful.
The shotgun in NS2 does the same damage as the shotgun in NS1.
-Return base Fade health to 300/150 and 300/250 with Carapace.
-Move Blink research to Hive 1.
-Make Metabolize available for research at Hive 2.
-Return base Fade health to 300/150 and 300/250 with Carapace.
-Move Blink research to Hive 1.
-Make Metabolize available for research at Hive 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the survivability buffs, but they need to counter-balance with the 800 pound Onos in the room.
I'd rather see 400 health come off the Onos, 50 armor added onto the Fade and 25 Health and 25 Armor onto the Lerk.
So in short:
Saving for onos = better (more map control, fight multiple marines, kill buildings faster).
Alien resources/player resources in general are slow gaining = Better to save for big items
No res for players on kills = No point in going fade and then killing marines to make back the cost, same with Shotguns being not very economical due to how fragile marines can be
Remember when Fades almost always required shotguns? Not in NS2.
Of course it would help for the uncoordinated, but for the half coordinated alien team it makes no difference. If a mass lifeform strat has no downside then there's no reason not to go for it?
Imagine if exos could build, repair, phase, and be beaconed?
You wouldn't see anything else but a whole team of them in any setting, ever. Making them a glass canon doesn't make sense visually when you look at the model.. but it makes total sense gameplay wise.
Its the downsides of each weapon and lifeform which keep it in it's place for the sake of soft Rock, Paper, Scissor mechanics - one lifeform or weapon shouldn't be the jack of all trades.
When there's a hiccup in this (Shotgun spread, GL player damage, or Fade's lack of a downside when its not made of paper or ruined by the aforementioned shotgun spread)
you can expect a sense of imbalance and then the following reaction to the imbalance - often addressing the symptom instead of the root cause, which is proper roles.
The only reason i ever became a forumite 2 and half years ago was to constantly draw attention to the importance of proper implementation of soft RPS mechanics.. they are so fundamental and essential! Especially in a resource economy that has an entire team able to purchase things at the same exact time - 4 fades on a team instead of 1 like in ns1.
You don't even have to eradicate these tactics as an option.. <b>just make them high risk through soft mechanics.</b>
See sixtymanwatt's response above (sry dont mean to single you out), he is addressing the symptom, naturally, and all this would do is make it's accessibility easier, yet completely imbalance higher levels of play (skilled players wreck whole teams twice as much) ... Address the role implementation and you dont have to do these things.
Changes like a 50 or LESS base armor boost would allow for the use of regen on fade, or cara to be a bit stronger against multiple marines. Focus would be best since it doenst really change dps just gives fade more mobility based dps so it would remain a very skill based class.
Changes to the fades abilities or suggestions that we need to give the fade 50 hp and 100 armor more are just unfeasible. You don't balance a game by making giant changes and just seeing how it works out.
But here's my little one, it's really simple to do and doesn't require any large recalibration. (Sorry if it's been posted before I skipped about 5 pages, I want to see this resolved.)
<b>My Solution</b>
Give fades more health... That's it. +100 at least.
<b>WHY?!</b>
Because they're weak as ######. Fades barely have more health than a Lerk, this is absolutely insane... Look at the res cost of units and compare it to the effectiveness, you can either die really fast and do nothing as a fade or save 25 more res (Which is pretty easy) and have way more health and presence.
<b>A quick number peek!</b>
LERK
125/50
FADE
250/50
ONOS
1300/600
So the fades has 125 more health than a lerk... is a bigger target and does only 15 more damage per basic attack (not considering lerk can easily spike as it approaches or runs).
In what universe does this seem like a good idea?
Also.. you should read what i just wrote above in regards to your "+100 hp" argument :P
No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.
Instead address the improper role implementation that comes from the current shotgun, and increase the skill required to use it at it's most effective level, simply by increasing it's bullet count and width of spread in a ratio that's proportional to it's current damage. Now you dont need to lessen shotgun ammo count, ensures proper soft RPS, and as a byproduct increases fade and lerk viability without touching their skill floors or ceilings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have been gone for a week but I wanted to address what you said Iron. I partially agree with your idea of re-balancing the shotgun so that it isn't such an "instant win" gun.
Now, if the developers were smart (which I think they are) they would play their own game called Natural Selection 1, and take notes about how they did the shotgun in that game. The shotgun had a wider spread (It wasn't the rifle that is ns2 shotgun), and it shot considerably faster to make up for this wider spread. What did this create? It created a gun that relied more on CONSISTENCY rather than getting one lucky shot. Consequently, it also made it easier for lifeforms to close the gap on a marine since the shotgun had such a large spread (<b>No more getting sniped from 15 feet away</b> when you're a skulk engaging an invincible shotgun marine). Once I get a shotgun in a pub I pretty much will only ever die if I make a mistake (Which is hard to even do with current shotgun mechanics).
I am getting very agitated by day 1 noobs pulling off stupid luck shots on my skulks and etc. The shotgun is painfully easy and stupid at the moment. It needs to still be AS POWERFUL as it is now, but require more consistency. The easy solution to this is to increase the shotguns rate of fire and also increase it's spread. No additional ammo needed. Just balance it exactly like how it was in NS1. It could still 1 shot skulks when they got close (Which added more strategy in how long you waited to pull your trigger).
DEVS please read this... someone please get their attention on this topic. The shotgun is broken right now. I can kill 8 skulks in 8 shots at the moment... that shouldn't be happening....
<b>You'd figure the developers would test the rate of fire of the shotgun at least in one public build in over 2 years of beta... but nope. I feel like it has never been changed due to aesthetics, or a need to re-do animations or something. It could greatly benefit the game, and it's balance, if spread / ROF were seriously looked at. I am sure it's been brought up countless times on internal and public. Listen to us already.</b>
EDIT: IIRC the shotguns rate of fire was actually slightly DECREASED in the last build. To the untrained player you wouldn't notice (Even to the trained player), but I noticed a change in the ROF from a couple builds ago. My friends call me the human metronome (Due to my uncanny steady rhythm while playing instruments) I notice timings even on extremely small scales. Shotgun now fires slightly slower and it wasn't added to the build changelog. Just like the increase to jetpack acceleration wasn't added to the changelog from builds ago either.
Not to start drama but I am slightly perplexed that dragon doesn't realize a carapace fade can get wrecked in 2 shotgun blasts... I do it all the time... and don't get mad when he tries to insult your intelligence... if you don't worship him as all knowing god and tell him you are unworthy he will hate you.
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<b><i><u>Call it blasphemy</u></i></b>
But if you want to reduce the idiocy that is the NS2 tech explosion then make it so you need gorges to build harvesters, at the cost of their own pres (commanders would have to start with less res or make cysts cost 2 res instead). That would be the only additional structure that gorges could build, but it would make it so that not everyone can go fade at the same time. This is exactly how NS1 worked. The reason you didn't have half the team going fade is due to 2-3 gorges going out to build harvesters early. I doubt this will ever happen because it goes against UWE's current BAD design... but maybe they should think about all the problems they have made for the game and do something heroic. They should give us what we want, and stop claiming brilliance to the broken alien commander system (Really the only thing broken about it is not allowing gorges to drop hives / harvesters). I don't see the logic in disallowing gorges to build those structures. Just because somebody said "The alien comm does everything now" we have to have a broken game with problems like tech explosions? We could easily allow gorges to have some of that khamming ability and it wouldn't break the game. I do see problems with the TRES / PRES system that would arise, but with a little thought and tweaking we could come up with a system that works. (sorry about going off topic) just wanted to address the fades / tech explosion problem.
Its fine to research Shotguns to counter fades. Fades have simply to learn to not fight shotgunners. Make Shotguns <u><i>stronger</i></u> vs fades and other weapons less effective vs fades. That would improved the strategic depths alot. Just opened a Thread about that : <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=124111" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=124111</a>
edit: and wow adhd ftw
especially when you play as skulk, dying in a single hit at anything other than point blank is very frustrating and there's not a lot you can do to avoid it... but obviously i want the shotgun to retain it's average power, while maintaining a significant advantage over AR at close range/weakness at mid-long range :p
Second of all, my "join" date has nothing to do with me not having been in the beta myself and played for months.
Third and for most, most of the posts on the forums at the moment are whiners, on so many aspects of the game that it kinda starts getting repetitiv.
Like alot of other players have said "its way to early to start screaming about balance issues" - The most ironic part were the posts that came up within the first two days as "balance issues" - Getting abit sick of it.
I'm not saying that I'm against change, but some people are just throwing in ideas that are far too ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you had been on the forums, or in any way tracking the development process of the game through the beta, you would know that conversations on balance have never stopped. You're not necessarily responding to day one whiners. Many of us have been having an ongoing discussion on "balance" the whole time.
Given what I know about how this game progressed from build to build, it's not an unfair assessment to say there are still some lingering balance issues to address.
But if you want to reduce the idiocy that is the NS2 tech explosion then make it so you need gorges to build harvesters, at the cost of their own pres (commanders would have to start with less res or make cysts cost 2 res instead). That would be the only additional structure that gorges could build, but it would make it so that not everyone can go fade at the same time. This is exactly how NS1 worked. The reason you didn't have half the team going fade is due to 2-3 gorges going out to build harvesters early. I doubt this will ever happen because it goes against UWE's current BAD design... but maybe they should think about all the problems they have made for the game and do something heroic. They should give us what we want, and stop claiming brilliance to the broken alien commander system (Really the only thing broken about it is not allowing gorges to drop hives / harvesters). I don't see the logic in disallowing gorges to build those structures. Just because somebody said "The alien comm does everything now" we have to have a broken game with problems like tech explosions? We could easily allow gorges to have some of that khamming ability and it wouldn't break the game. I do see problems with the TRES / PRES system that would arise, but with a little thought and tweaking we could come up with a system that works. (sorry about going off topic) just wanted to address the fades / tech explosion problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your points on shotguns, but I don't think the Alien tech explosion is going to be that simple to fix and even if you fix the Alien tech explosion problem, there is still the problem of Marine P-res which has a very similar problem. Gorges definitely need more ###### to do (more buildings, maybe let them build Crags, Shifts, Shades, and drop eggs?) and as much as I hated RFK, it might be the only solution (at least for Aliens, RFK on Marines just creates turtles) at this point or at least a small band-aid.
Or they could ditch the Alien commander and Marine P-res... that would work too.