<!--quoteo(post=2014320:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:37 PM:name=Chuck7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chuck7 @ Nov 7 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And there lies the problem. As someone outlined in an earlier post. Even if the Onos dies, its not a huge setback to the aliens. So why no try it? And for the marines it's usually a devastating delay to their advancement. But either way, as commander I will just be prepared for it I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok so the Onos dies. You have no upgrades, no second hive abilities, all you have is skulks. Marines have taken the vast majority of the map due to your early game weakness (because you rushed Onos) and are teching up so rapidly now that they will have exos before you can even get carapace. Not a huge set back.
The point is that the Onos will have already PAID for itself within mere minutes by allowing the Aliens to push and set down more RTs. Unless the Alien Onos player is horrible, by the time he dies, the Marine team will be working from BEHIND.
<!--quoteo(post=2014322:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so the Onos dies. You have no upgrades, no second hive abilities, all you have is skulks. Marines have taken the vast majority of the map due to your early game weakness (because you rushed Onos) and are teching up so rapidly now that they will have exos before you can even get carapace. Not a huge set back.
People are approaching this game like COD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.... So while an Onos is knocking out the Marines expansions, freeing up the commander to build else where since most marines will be forced to head towards the Onos area, which would allow the other aliens to harass the rest of the marines RT's. How exactly is this like COD? The Onos is a giant distraction which requires a lot of level 1 marine attention. You think too small my friend.
<!--quoteo(post=2013733:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:12 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 7 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm expecting something more towards requiring third hive for dropping onos with t-res, but no other nerf otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2014322:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok so the Onos dies. You have no upgrades, no second hive abilities, all you have is skulks. Marines have taken the vast majority of the map due to your early game weakness (because you rushed Onos) and are teching up so rapidly now that they will have exos before you can even get carapace. Not a huge set back.
People are approaching this game like COD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding, right?
The onos should never die. The only way the onos dies is if he puts himself in a bad situation and doesn't realize it until he is under half hp. A decent onos should absolutely never die unless he is trading his life for something (power down, defending hive lategame, etc). At 6-10 minutes when the onos comes out, he should never die. Ever.
On most maps the onos can simply walk around the map and hit a different area that marines don't have walled off with armories. The armory wall is pretty much the only way the onos can lose a fight against less than 3 marines.
The point made early was that even if the onos does at sometime make a huge mistake and die, then aliens still come out on top because they've likely pushed marines off the map and/or broken their forward phase gates. At this point it doesn't matter if the onos dies because they can drop a new one (or two because they now have the entire map!).
<!--quoteo(post=2013733:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:12 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 7 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm expecting something more towards requiring third hive for dropping onos with t-res, but no other nerf otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People are unable to differentiate if an Onos came from the commander or came from an individual player evolving up with P.Res. Alien Commander drops two Onos, is out of resources, and two other players become Onos with their own resources, then the marines say the aliens are 'spamming' Onos.
I still haven't heard anyone give an alternate way for the aliens to win outside of Onos, early or otherwise. I mean, it's an utterly <i>required</i> life form to win as aliens against marines of equal skill. So the people that say 'link the Onos to the third hive' are saying to make a third hive a prerequisite to win for aliens but not for marines. Asymmetry aside, that means that if aliens intend on winning it's going to take them longer in any given circumstance to win in real time. How much longer depends on the team, but I would say a minimum of five to fifteen minutes longer than it would take a marines team to win with the changes people are asking for.
It's somehow 'fine' that a group of jetpack flamethrower troops can erase a hive in seconds but it's 'not ok' for an Onos rush to take out a marine base in seconds. There are zerg strategies for both teams, it's just that right now the majority of the marine's commanders seem to believe that Exo's are somehow useful and win games.
It's also somehow 'fine' that Marines can be in several places at once with phase technology. Oh, that early Onos rushed the marines main base but all the marines are at the second base building? Good thing they can <i>instantly be exactly where the early Onos is, shooting him in the face.</i> Even if the majority of the Marines team is clueless, their commander can <i>instantly recall his entire team.</i> Unless, of course, his whole team is dead from skulk bites. In this instance, it's a failure of the commander and it's a failure of his team to react quickly and decisively. If an early Onos is doing hit and runs on your main base? Scan his *** and chase him down. He's running <i>for a reason</i>.
If the aliens have a commander that does the six minute Onos you can bet your arse that they're an excellent commander that know exactly how to manage their resources. They not only have a plan, but they implement it with zero resource waste. My question to those marines is this; does your Commander that loses to this strategy do even half as good of a job managing his resources? When you see that six minute Onos, do you have <i>any</i> upgrades that are even worth mentioning? Did he ever even bother to scan the alien hive to see what they're up to? Dispite what you might think, a few marines with W2 or W3 will wipe the floor with an Onos, especially if it doesn't have carapace. If it does have carapace, then your phase gates give you a big speed advantage at the start of a map. Either way, as Marines you can recycle buildings and change your strategy <i>on the fly</i> to adjust for early Onos. That means getting rid of that robotics factory and rushing weapons and armor upgrades plus flamethrowers. An Onos on fire is an Onos that dies. (No energy means no sprint for Onos.)
TL;DR:
I'm not saying that nothing needs to be done, but both of the teams need tweaking. Specifically the weapon/armor upgrades and Exo's need to be tied to command chair control, and as a trade-off Onos could probably stand to be a third-hive life form. That way both teams have a reason to fight over a third hive instead of aliens fighting for a third hive while marines simply need to hold two and save-to-win while playing a game of resource denial.
The onos should never die. The only way the onos dies is if he puts himself in a bad situation and doesn't realize it until he is under half hp. A decent onos should absolutely never die unless he is trading his life for something (power down, defending hive lategame, etc). At 6-10 minutes when the onos comes out, he should never die. Ever.
On most maps the onos can simply walk around the map and hit a different area that marines don't have walled off with armories. The armory wall is pretty much the only way the onos can lose a fight against less than 3 marines.
The point made early was that even if the onos does at sometime make a huge mistake and die, then aliens still come out on top because they've likely pushed marines off the map and/or broken their forward phase gates. At this point it doesn't matter if the onos dies because they can drop a new one (or two because they now have the entire map!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it just me, or do the new guys think they know what there talking about :)
<!--quoteo(post=2014366:date=Nov 7 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 7 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it just me, or do the new guys think they know what there talking about :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2014365:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:12 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 7 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still haven't heard anyone give an alternate way for the aliens to win outside of Onos, early or otherwise. I mean, it's an utterly <i>required</i> life form to win as aliens against marines of equal skill. So the people that say 'link the Onos to the third hive' are saying to make a third hive a prerequisite to win for aliens but not for marines. Asymmetry aside, that means that if aliens intend on winning it's going to take them longer in any given circumstance to win in real time. How much longer depends on the team, but I would say a minimum of five to fifteen minutes longer than it would take a marines team to win with the changes people are asking for.
If the aliens have a commander that does the six minute Onos you can bet your arse that they're an excellent commander that know exactly how to manage their resources. They not only have a plan, but they implement it with zero resource waste. My question to those marines is this; does your Commander that loses to this strategy do even half as good of a job managing his resources? When you see that six minute Onos, do you have <i>any</i> upgrades that are even worth mentioning? Did he ever even bother to scan the alien hive to see what they're up to? Dispite what you might think, a few marines with W2 or W3 will wipe the floor with an Onos, especially if it doesn't have carapace. If it does have carapace, then your phase gates give you a big speed advantage at the start of a map. Either way, as Marines you can recycle buildings and change your strategy <i>on the fly</i> to adjust for early Onos. That means getting rid of that robotics factory and rushing weapons and armor upgrades plus flamethrowers. An Onos on fire is an Onos that dies. (No energy means no sprint for Onos.)
TL;DR:I'm not saying that nothing needs to be done, but both of the teams need tweaking. Specifically the weapon/armor upgrades and Exo's need to be tied to command chair control, and as a trade-off Onos could probably stand to be a third-hive life form. That way both teams have a reason to fight over a third hive instead of aliens fighting for a third hive while marines simply need to hold two and save-to-win while playing a game of resource denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that rushing onos is the only useful strat at the moment is boring. You have now taken everything away from the game that makes it fun and you put teams on a linear path to 'rush onos' and 'defend from the onos rush'.
If you want to add more depth, don't leave people with onos as the only choice to do anything useful....buff fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2014382:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:30 PM:name=Chuck7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chuck7 @ Nov 7 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you judge who's new?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have had a lot of interaction with the ns2 beta community over the last months: I know most of the knowledgeable people on the subject. Overall if someone new wants to talk balance that is fine, just realize that this game is extremity hard to balance due to its nature.
The balance is mostly RTS mechanics at its core, but you still need to have fun FPS mechanics. IE: Skulks are mostly balanced(In high level play there not great), but are not that fun to play late game~
So next time someone says something about Onos or fade... think about it like is SC2 + people, not a FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=2014390:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:38 PM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 7 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that rushing onos is the only useful strat at the moment is boring. You have now taken everything away from the game that makes it fun and you put teams on a linear path to 'rush onos' and 'defend from the onos rush'.
If you want to add more depth, don't leave people with onos as the only choice to do anything useful....buff fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
I wanted to say that it's nice to so excellent discussion going on in here.
Back to my point about speeding up marine tech: I didn't mean all of it I just meant maybe weapons/armor 1. Obviously the two and three would need to take longer and/or cost more, in theory.
In regards to buffing the fade they may prove useful for public games but I fear the competitive scene would have negative effects. Again, speculative.
The onos versus the Exo is an interesting topic on its own and I can only say attacking on your own is suicidal. We as players have to remember to work as a team. Two people or more working together can accomplish great things.
I remember from some strategy and tactics reading I did, in regards to chess (NS2) your objective is not to capture pieces (PLAYERS) but to capture the king (HIVE/CC).
<!--quoteo(post=2014425:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:01 PM:name=|R18|Zerg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|R18|Zerg @ Nov 7 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im calling BS on winning after the Onos dies.
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
Stop whinging about your pub stomps imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Onos is only 75 tres. I usually cause that much damage many times over due to ninjaing around to the main hive and destroying upgrade chambers, and Aliens still manage to win most of the time despite having to constantly rebuild their upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=2014425:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:01 PM:name=|R18|Zerg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|R18|Zerg @ Nov 7 2012, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Im calling BS on winning after the Onos dies.
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
Stop whinging about your pub stomps imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have done my fair share of pub stomps, and your right that about half of what people have said on thees forums the last week is BS. Still onos come's out way to early for it not to be the obvious choice. Any high level ns2 player would agree that at least moving onos-egg drop to the 3rd hive should be done.
<!--quoteo(post=2014459:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 7 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not really. Onos is only 75 tres. I usually cause that much damage many times over due to ninjaing around to the main hive and destroying upgrade chambers, and Aliens still manage to win most of the time despite having to constantly rebuild their upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upgrade chambers allow you to take resource nodes early game, and get up res flow, a 6 minute Onos does not. If you have a 6 minute Onos and more than 2 harvesters, the marines deserve to lose and lose hard. And 75 res with 2 harvesters is a hell of a lot.
You guys clearly have not had sufficient experiences for you to understand what is obvious to many here, or even most. Further debate will only be repeating what has been said. Clearly, what we need is not to explain the obvious, but instead to provide some examples of it. So, let's look at competitive play.
For those who watched the tournaments, you already know what is OBVIOUS. For those who haven't, there is Youtube (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/animamiina?feature=g-all-u" target="_blank">One channel with many examples</a>).
There is also twitch.tv <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090" target="_blank">Link to Blind NS2 Coverage of a tournament</a>. It's a long stream, so here are some times of the first half of the segment: <ul><li>0:40 - 5 minute Onos</li><li>1:01 - 6 minute Onos - example of losing early Onos but still being JUST FINE due to advantage gained</li><li>1:46 - 9 min Onos</li></ul>
These are only a FEW examples of what has been pervasive in nearly every competitive game played so far. The game REVOLVES around this tactic, and it has made the game lose much of its allure. Show me some EXAMPLES of this tactic being countered by teams of equal skill levels, and maybe I will listen. It won't happen, though, because it doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2014505:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:55 PM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 7 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys clearly have not had sufficient experiences for you to understand what is obvious to many here, or even most. Further debate will only be repeating what has been said. Clearly, what we need is not to explain the obvious, but instead to provide some examples of it. So, let's look at competitive play.
For those who watched the tournaments, you already know what is OBVIOUS. For those who haven't, there is Youtube (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/animamiina?feature=g-all-u" target="_blank">One channel with many examples</a>).
There is also twitch.tv <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090" target="_blank">Link to Blind NS2 Coverage of a tournament</a>. It's a long stream, so here are some times of the first half of the segment: <ul><li>0:40 - 5 minute Onos</li><li>1:01 - 6 minute Onos - example of losing early Onos but still being JUST FINE due to advantage gained</li><li>1:46 - 9 min Onos</li></ul>
These are only a FEW examples of what has been pervasive in nearly every competitive game played so far. The game REVOLVES around this tactic, and it has made the game lose much of its allure. Show me some EXAMPLES of this tactic being countered by teams of equal skill levels, and maybe I will listen. It won't happen, though, because it doesn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A youtube channel and two examples in a video will not serve to convince me I'm afraid. If it was as prevalent as many seem to think, you shouldn't have had much trouble coming up with several concrete examples. Furthermore, most people don't doubt it is a powerful strategy. I am fully aware of how powerful this tactic is, and I use it frequently. I also lose frequently because when an inexperienced player gets the Onos, you can be completely screwed over. And I know that bad players being bad doesn't mean its not an issue, but come on, it kind of does. If bad players are still bad, and good players are still good, how overpowered can this strategy be? Maybe its just a case of a good onos steamrolling marines far harder than usual, and it just <b>seems </b>like a problem.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.
<!--quoteo(post=2014517:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:06 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A youtube channel and two examples in a video will not serve to convince me I'm afraid. If it was as prevalent as many seem to think, you shouldn't have had much trouble coming up with several concrete examples. Furthermore, most people don't doubt it is a powerful strategy. I am fully aware of how powerful this tactic is, and I use it frequently. I also lose frequently because when an inexperienced player gets the Onos, you can be completely screwed over. And I know that bad players being bad doesn't mean its not an issue, but come on, it kind of does. If bad players are still bad, and good players are still good, how overpowered can this strategy be? Maybe its just a case of a good onos steamrolling marines far harder than usual, and it just <b>seems </b>like a problem.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If early onos is so risky... How come we just did it in a gather, the onos CRASHED, we then lost a fade due to natural causes and yet we still won by spamming 4 more onos eggs... Bare in mind the team beat us the game before (when we were marines) with an early onos strat.
<!--quoteo(post=2014521:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:12 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 8 2012, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If early onos is so risky... How come we just did it in a gather, the onos CRASHED, we then lost a fade due to natural causes and yet we still won by spamming 4 more onos eggs... Bare in mind the team beat us the game before (when we were marines) with an early onos strat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Onos crashed, then how are you attributing the win to an early Onos? I think you made a logic fail there.
problem is if you nerf the onos, aliens stop winning, if you put it at 3 hives for a drop, aliens lose competitive matches 80% of the time.
How do you fix this? Easy. Buff other life forms and evolutions, and just INCREASE the amount of Tres required to drop alien eggs period, and do the same thing for exos, like a 25% increase across the board for comm handing out units.
Game balanced and fun, late game onos still good, case closed.
<!--quoteo(post=2014517:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A youtube channel and two examples in a video will not serve to convince me I'm afraid. If it was as prevalent as many seem to think, you shouldn't have had much trouble coming up with several concrete examples. Furthermore, most people don't doubt it is a powerful strategy. I am fully aware of how powerful this tactic is, and I use it frequently. I also lose frequently because when an inexperienced player gets the Onos, you can be completely screwed over. And I know that bad players being bad doesn't mean its not an issue, but come on, it kind of does. If bad players are still bad, and good players are still good, how overpowered can this strategy be? Maybe its just a case of a good onos steamrolling marines far harder than usual, and it just <b>seems </b>like a problem.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't you see the posts from GORGEous and rantology? They also agree that the early Onos drop is too strong and, most of all, leads to predictable, boring competitive matches.
Marines can destroy a hive in no time at all with just axes and LMGs, at any point in the game.
Aliens have one chance at the beginning to knock out the marine base, and then that window closes.
Do the aliens just move into stalemate mode until the Onos shows up?
The early Onos strategy is flawed, but not as flawed as the entire alien design, which is a mishmash of bad design, some really terrible ideas, and a total failure to innovate, all band-aided together with a single, linear strategy.
Marines don't need JPs / Exos to win, aliens shouldn't need the Onos.
Said it before, say it again: at least one new lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2014524:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->problem is if you nerf the onos, aliens stop winning, if you put it at 3 hives for a drop, aliens lose competitive matches 80% of the time.
How do you fix this? Easy. Buff other life forms and evolutions, and just INCREASE the amount of Tres required to drop alien eggs period, and do the same thing for exos, like a 25% increase across the board for comm handing out units.
Game balanced and fun, late game onos still good, case closed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have essentially no marine comm experience, but from what I can tell, alien commander makes far more use of dropping things for players, which means the cost increase will primarily be a nerf to the alien team. Is that to compensate for the increased potency of the other lifeforms?
Additionally, even though NS2 is that kind of game, many people can get quite frustrated if their enemies pack too much of a punch. Increasing the potency of lerk, for example, may put players in a position where they are fighting a lifeform they just have no hope against. Everything may be balanced in the long run, but it can make for very unrewarding gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2014527:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM:name=LtDrebin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LtDrebin @ Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't you see the posts from GORGEous and rantology? They also agree that the early Onos drop is too strong and, most of all, leads to predictable, boring competitive matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying I will respect the opinion of people who do have the playtime, I'm saying that you shouldn't state that others are inexperienced if you don't have the play time. When it comes to balance, I am of the opinion that competitive players are just as bad consultants as complete noobs, because each represents an end of the scale which is irrelevant to the vast vast vast majority of cases.
You want to know how to make your game easier to learn and more understandable? You talk to new players. You want to know how to introduce detailed skill mechanics which increase skill scaling? You talk to competitive players. You want to balance the game? You consult statistics. No subjective point of view will provide you with the objective information you need. Especially not when that point of view comes from experiences which lie outside the norm.
<!--quoteo(post=2014533:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:20 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have essentially no marine comm experience, but from what I can tell, alien commander makes far more use of dropping things for players, which means the cost increase will primarily be a nerf to the alien team. Is that to compensate for the increased potency of the other lifeforms?
Additionally, even though NS2 is that kind of game, many people can get quite frustrated if their enemies pack too much of a punch. Increasing the potency of lerk, for example, may put players in a position where they are fighting a lifeform they just have no hope against. Everything may be balanced in the long run, but it can make for very unrewarding gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, the increased cost is to compensate for buffs like, fade's health increased by 150 or something. Or Celerity is usable in combat, or Adrenaline has a slightly faster regen rate, Whips are slightly cheaper but mature slower, Hydras deal 3x the damage and have more range, gorge spit is 2x as fast and shoots 2x as far, gorge slide is 10% faster, Shadow step + attack does bonus damage (would be fun to setup)
I dunno stuff like this to make aliens more fun would go a LONG way imo
<!--quoteo(post=2014517:date=Nov 7 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A youtube channel and two examples in a video will not serve to convince me I'm afraid. If it was as prevalent as many seem to think, you shouldn't have had much trouble coming up with several concrete examples. Furthermore, most people don't doubt it is a powerful strategy. I am fully aware of how powerful this tactic is, and I use it frequently. I also lose frequently because when an inexperienced player gets the Onos, you can be completely screwed over. And I know that bad players being bad doesn't mean its not an issue, but come on, it kind of does. If bad players are still bad, and good players are still good, how overpowered can this strategy be? Maybe its just a case of a good onos steamrolling marines far harder than usual, and it just <b>seems </b>like a problem.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... what you're saying is: a) You will ignore evidence unless I waste my time by foraging around for loads of videos are that easily accessible and b) clearly I know nothing because you don't recognize me.
LOL! Well, the good news is that I don't have to convince you. There will always be those who refuse to see what is obvious. I think I'd just prefer to ignore you, because MOST of those whose opinions matter already agreed that this is an issue before I ever started this thread!
<!--quoteo(post=2014546:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:33 AM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 8 2012, 12:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... what you're saying is: a) You will ignore evidence unless I waste my time by foraging around for loads of videos are that easily accessible and b) clearly I know nothing because you don't recognize me.
LOL! Well, the good news is that I don't have to convince you. There will always be those who refuse to see what is obvious. I think I'd just prefer to ignore you, because MOST of those whose opinions matter already agreed that this is an issue before I ever started this thread!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typically those who are truly correct don't need to ignore anyone, but you can of course do as you wish. I wonder, If I was to post 2 examples of aliens losing after doing a 6 minute Onos, would that be enough to convince you? But of course, you don't need to be convinced right, because you already know that what you believe in is obviously true.
I posted more than 2 examples. There were probably 8-12 examples in those 2 links combined, all from reliable sources. Did you see that I actually invited people to post videos in opposition? If you have them, than post them.
On a side note: I do agree that statistics should speak extensively about balance.
Edit: The difficulty with statistics is that they do not generally represent the full picture. a 50/50 win/loss rate can only tell you how often the teams win or lose. It tells you nothing of the methods that can be used to achieve victory. If the entire game revolves around a single strategy while maintaining a 50/50 win rate, the game will be bland.
<!--quoteo(post=2013725:date=Nov 6 2012, 10:07 PM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Nov 6 2012, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... when is this going to happen? Honestly, it just makes the game unplayable right now. The entire game revolves around attempting to deny the early onos. If that fails, then the game is basically over, altho the marine's death throes can be extensively long.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be very surprised if UWE does not nerf early onos. Squirreli pretty much <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123748&view=findpost&p=2013821" target="_blank">exactly nails it in his post</a> why early onos is imbalanced. I believe that UWE will certainly nerf early onos, not just because it is overpowered but because: <ul><li>It removes gameplay diversity and early and midgame now revolves around early onos and countering early onos</li><li>Onos is the lowest skill lifeform in NS2 and does not promote high-skill play</li><li>Onos is intended to be a endgame unit and I'm sure that UWE never intended for NS2 to be a game where endgame units were consistently popping up in the first 5 minutes long before fades</li><li>There have been tons of complaints from players</li><li>There is a consensus in the competitive community that it is imbalanced</li></ul>I think the only question is when it is addressed. The other factor is that UWE will probably need to playtest before they nerf early onos because I actually feel that aliens are relying heavily on early onos to survive early game right now, and in its absence marines might dominate over aliens, therefore requiring boost to aliens or nerfs to marines.
Comments
Ok so the Onos dies. You have no upgrades, no second hive abilities, all you have is skulks. Marines have taken the vast majority of the map due to your early game weakness (because you rushed Onos) and are teching up so rapidly now that they will have exos before you can even get carapace. Not a huge set back.
People are approaching this game like COD.
People are approaching this game like COD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.... So while an Onos is knocking out the Marines expansions, freeing up the commander to build else where since most marines will be forced to head towards the Onos area, which would allow the other aliens to harass the rest of the marines RT's. How exactly is this like COD? The Onos is a giant distraction which requires a lot of level 1 marine attention. You think too small my friend.
this, and make fades more useful
People are approaching this game like COD.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding, right?
The onos should never die. The only way the onos dies is if he puts himself in a bad situation and doesn't realize it until he is under half hp. A decent onos should absolutely never die unless he is trading his life for something (power down, defending hive lategame, etc). At 6-10 minutes when the onos comes out, he should never die. Ever.
On most maps the onos can simply walk around the map and hit a different area that marines don't have walled off with armories. The armory wall is pretty much the only way the onos can lose a fight against less than 3 marines.
The point made early was that even if the onos does at sometime make a huge mistake and die, then aliens still come out on top because they've likely pushed marines off the map and/or broken their forward phase gates. At this point it doesn't matter if the onos dies because they can drop a new one (or two because they now have the entire map!).
That will not happen. Never.
I still haven't heard anyone give an alternate way for the aliens to win outside of Onos, early or otherwise. I mean, it's an utterly <i>required</i> life form to win as aliens against marines of equal skill. So the people that say 'link the Onos to the third hive' are saying to make a third hive a prerequisite to win for aliens but not for marines. Asymmetry aside, that means that if aliens intend on winning it's going to take them longer in any given circumstance to win in real time. How much longer depends on the team, but I would say a minimum of five to fifteen minutes longer than it would take a marines team to win with the changes people are asking for.
It's somehow 'fine' that a group of jetpack flamethrower troops can erase a hive in seconds but it's 'not ok' for an Onos rush to take out a marine base in seconds. There are zerg strategies for both teams, it's just that right now the majority of the marine's commanders seem to believe that Exo's are somehow useful and win games.
It's also somehow 'fine' that Marines can be in several places at once with phase technology. Oh, that early Onos rushed the marines main base but all the marines are at the second base building? Good thing they can <i>instantly be exactly where the early Onos is, shooting him in the face.</i> Even if the majority of the Marines team is clueless, their commander can <i>instantly recall his entire team.</i> Unless, of course, his whole team is dead from skulk bites. In this instance, it's a failure of the commander and it's a failure of his team to react quickly and decisively. If an early Onos is doing hit and runs on your main base? Scan his *** and chase him down. He's running <i>for a reason</i>.
If the aliens have a commander that does the six minute Onos you can bet your arse that they're an excellent commander that know exactly how to manage their resources. They not only have a plan, but they implement it with zero resource waste. My question to those marines is this; does your Commander that loses to this strategy do even half as good of a job managing his resources? When you see that six minute Onos, do you have <i>any</i> upgrades that are even worth mentioning? Did he ever even bother to scan the alien hive to see what they're up to? Dispite what you might think, a few marines with W2 or W3 will wipe the floor with an Onos, especially if it doesn't have carapace. If it does have carapace, then your phase gates give you a big speed advantage at the start of a map. Either way, as Marines you can recycle buildings and change your strategy <i>on the fly</i> to adjust for early Onos. That means getting rid of that robotics factory and rushing weapons and armor upgrades plus flamethrowers. An Onos on fire is an Onos that dies. (No energy means no sprint for Onos.)
TL;DR:
I'm not saying that nothing needs to be done, but both of the teams need tweaking. Specifically the weapon/armor upgrades and Exo's need to be tied to command chair control, and as a trade-off Onos could probably stand to be a third-hive life form. That way both teams have a reason to fight over a third hive instead of aliens fighting for a third hive while marines simply need to hold two and save-to-win while playing a game of resource denial.
The onos should never die. The only way the onos dies is if he puts himself in a bad situation and doesn't realize it until he is under half hp. A decent onos should absolutely never die unless he is trading his life for something (power down, defending hive lategame, etc). At 6-10 minutes when the onos comes out, he should never die. Ever.
On most maps the onos can simply walk around the map and hit a different area that marines don't have walled off with armories. The armory wall is pretty much the only way the onos can lose a fight against less than 3 marines.
The point made early was that even if the onos does at sometime make a huge mistake and die, then aliens still come out on top because they've likely pushed marines off the map and/or broken their forward phase gates. At this point it doesn't matter if the onos dies because they can drop a new one (or two because they now have the entire map!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it just me, or do the new guys think they know what there talking about :)
How do you judge who's new?
If the aliens have a commander that does the six minute Onos you can bet your arse that they're an excellent commander that know exactly how to manage their resources. They not only have a plan, but they implement it with zero resource waste. My question to those marines is this; does your Commander that loses to this strategy do even half as good of a job managing his resources? When you see that six minute Onos, do you have <i>any</i> upgrades that are even worth mentioning? Did he ever even bother to scan the alien hive to see what they're up to? Dispite what you might think, a few marines with W2 or W3 will wipe the floor with an Onos, especially if it doesn't have carapace. If it does have carapace, then your phase gates give you a big speed advantage at the start of a map. Either way, as Marines you can recycle buildings and change your strategy <i>on the fly</i> to adjust for early Onos. That means getting rid of that robotics factory and rushing weapons and armor upgrades plus flamethrowers. An Onos on fire is an Onos that dies. (No energy means no sprint for Onos.)
TL;DR:I'm not saying that nothing needs to be done, but both of the teams need tweaking. Specifically the weapon/armor upgrades and Exo's need to be tied to command chair control, and as a trade-off Onos could probably stand to be a third-hive life form. That way both teams have a reason to fight over a third hive instead of aliens fighting for a third hive while marines simply need to hold two and save-to-win while playing a game of resource denial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that rushing onos is the only useful strat at the moment is boring. You have now taken everything away from the game that makes it fun and you put teams on a linear path to 'rush onos' and 'defend from the onos rush'.
If you want to add more depth, don't leave people with onos as the only choice to do anything useful....buff fade.
I have had a lot of interaction with the ns2 beta community over the last months: I know most of the knowledgeable people on the subject.
Overall if someone new wants to talk balance that is fine, just realize that this game is extremity hard to balance due to its nature.
The balance is mostly RTS mechanics at its core, but you still need to have fun FPS mechanics. IE: Skulks are mostly balanced(In high level play there not great), but are not that fun to play late game~
So next time someone says something about Onos or fade... think about it like is SC2 + people, not a FPS.
-Daniel
If you want to add more depth, don't leave people with onos as the only choice to do anything useful....buff fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
Stop whinging about your pub stomps imo.
Back to my point about speeding up marine tech: I didn't mean all of it I just meant maybe weapons/armor 1. Obviously the two and three would need to take longer and/or cost more, in theory.
In regards to buffing the fade they may prove useful for public games but I fear the competitive scene would have negative effects. Again, speculative.
The onos versus the Exo is an interesting topic on its own and I can only say attacking on your own is suicidal. We as players have to remember to work as a team. Two people or more working together can accomplish great things.
I remember from some strategy and tactics reading I did, in regards to chess (NS2) your objective is not to capture pieces (PLAYERS) but to capture the king (HIVE/CC).
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
Stop whinging about your pub stomps imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. Onos is only 75 tres. I usually cause that much damage many times over due to ninjaing around to the main hive and destroying upgrade chambers, and Aliens still manage to win most of the time despite having to constantly rebuild their upgrades.
If he dies, and the earlier he dies, its a massive, massive setback for aliens. Usually a loss if comm'd correctly by the rines. A fair outcome for a risky strategy.
Stop whinging about your pub stomps imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have done my fair share of pub stomps, and your right that about half of what people have said on thees forums the last week is BS. Still onos come's out way to early for it not to be the obvious choice. Any high level ns2 player would agree that at least moving onos-egg drop to the 3rd hive should be done.
Upgrade chambers allow you to take resource nodes early game, and get up res flow, a 6 minute Onos does not. If you have a 6 minute Onos and more than 2 harvesters, the marines deserve to lose and lose hard. And 75 res with 2 harvesters is a hell of a lot.
For those who watched the tournaments, you already know what is OBVIOUS. For those who haven't, there is Youtube (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/animamiina?feature=g-all-u" target="_blank">One channel with many examples</a>).
There is also twitch.tv <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090" target="_blank">Link to Blind NS2 Coverage of a tournament</a>. It's a long stream, so here are some times of the first half of the segment:
<ul><li>0:40 - 5 minute Onos</li><li>1:01 - 6 minute Onos - example of losing early Onos but still being JUST FINE due to advantage gained</li><li>1:46 - 9 min Onos</li></ul>
These are only a FEW examples of what has been pervasive in nearly every competitive game played so far. The game REVOLVES around this tactic, and it has made the game lose much of its allure. Show me some EXAMPLES of this tactic being countered by teams of equal skill levels, and maybe I will listen. It won't happen, though, because it doesn't exist.
For those who watched the tournaments, you already know what is OBVIOUS. For those who haven't, there is Youtube (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/animamiina?feature=g-all-u" target="_blank">One channel with many examples</a>).
There is also twitch.tv <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337228090" target="_blank">Link to Blind NS2 Coverage of a tournament</a>. It's a long stream, so here are some times of the first half of the segment:
<ul><li>0:40 - 5 minute Onos</li><li>1:01 - 6 minute Onos - example of losing early Onos but still being JUST FINE due to advantage gained</li><li>1:46 - 9 min Onos</li></ul>
These are only a FEW examples of what has been pervasive in nearly every competitive game played so far. The game REVOLVES around this tactic, and it has made the game lose much of its allure. Show me some EXAMPLES of this tactic being countered by teams of equal skill levels, and maybe I will listen. It won't happen, though, because it doesn't exist.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A youtube channel and two examples in a video will not serve to convince me I'm afraid. If it was as prevalent as many seem to think, you shouldn't have had much trouble coming up with several concrete examples. Furthermore, most people don't doubt it is a powerful strategy. I am fully aware of how powerful this tactic is, and I use it frequently. I also lose frequently because when an inexperienced player gets the Onos, you can be completely screwed over. And I know that bad players being bad doesn't mean its not an issue, but come on, it kind of does. If bad players are still bad, and good players are still good, how overpowered can this strategy be? Maybe its just a case of a good onos steamrolling marines far harder than usual, and it just <b>seems </b>like a problem.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If early onos is so risky...
How come we just did it in a gather, the onos CRASHED, we then lost a fade due to natural causes and yet we still won by spamming 4 more onos eggs...
Bare in mind the team beat us the game before (when we were marines) with an early onos strat.
How come we just did it in a gather, the onos CRASHED, we then lost a fade due to natural causes and yet we still won by spamming 4 more onos eggs...
Bare in mind the team beat us the game before (when we were marines) with an early onos strat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the Onos crashed, then how are you attributing the win to an early Onos? I think you made a logic fail there.
How do you fix this? Easy. Buff other life forms and evolutions, and just INCREASE the amount of Tres required to drop alien eggs period, and do the same thing for exos, like a 25% increase across the board for comm handing out units.
Game balanced and fun, late game onos still good, case closed.
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't you see the posts from GORGEous and rantology? They also agree that the early Onos drop is too strong and, most of all, leads to predictable, boring competitive matches.
Marines can destroy a hive in no time at all with just axes and LMGs, at any point in the game.
Aliens have one chance at the beginning to knock out the marine base, and then that window closes.
Do the aliens just move into stalemate mode until the Onos shows up?
The early Onos strategy is flawed, but not as flawed as the entire alien design, which is a mishmash of bad design, some really terrible ideas, and a total failure to innovate, all band-aided together with a single, linear strategy.
Marines don't need JPs / Exos to win, aliens shouldn't need the Onos.
Said it before, say it again: at least one new lifeform.
How do you fix this? Easy. Buff other life forms and evolutions, and just INCREASE the amount of Tres required to drop alien eggs period, and do the same thing for exos, like a 25% increase across the board for comm handing out units.
Game balanced and fun, late game onos still good, case closed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have essentially no marine comm experience, but from what I can tell, alien commander makes far more use of dropping things for players, which means the cost increase will primarily be a nerf to the alien team. Is that to compensate for the increased potency of the other lifeforms?
Additionally, even though NS2 is that kind of game, many people can get quite frustrated if their enemies pack too much of a punch. Increasing the potency of lerk, for example, may put players in a position where they are fighting a lifeform they just have no hope against. Everything may be balanced in the long run, but it can make for very unrewarding gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2014527:date=Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM:name=LtDrebin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LtDrebin @ Nov 8 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't you see the posts from GORGEous and rantology? They also agree that the early Onos drop is too strong and, most of all, leads to predictable, boring competitive matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misunderstood. I'm not saying I will respect the opinion of people who do have the playtime, I'm saying that you shouldn't state that others are inexperienced if you don't have the play time. When it comes to balance, I am of the opinion that competitive players are just as bad consultants as complete noobs, because each represents an end of the scale which is irrelevant to the vast vast vast majority of cases.
You want to know how to make your game easier to learn and more understandable? You talk to new players.
You want to know how to introduce detailed skill mechanics which increase skill scaling? You talk to competitive players.
You want to balance the game? You consult statistics. No subjective point of view will provide you with the objective information you need. Especially not when that point of view comes from experiences which lie outside the norm.
Additionally, even though NS2 is that kind of game, many people can get quite frustrated if their enemies pack too much of a punch. Increasing the potency of lerk, for example, may put players in a position where they are fighting a lifeform they just have no hope against. Everything may be balanced in the long run, but it can make for very unrewarding gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, the increased cost is to compensate for buffs like, fade's health increased by 150 or something. Or Celerity is usable in combat, or Adrenaline has a slightly faster regen rate, Whips are slightly cheaper but mature slower, Hydras deal 3x the damage and have more range, gorge spit is 2x as fast and shoots 2x as far, gorge slide is 10% faster, Shadow step + attack does bonus damage (would be fun to setup)
I dunno stuff like this to make aliens more fun would go a LONG way imo
I also do not recall seeing you in many beta servers, so unless you can backup what you say with some playtime hours, I wouldn't take the holier than thou veteran route.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... what you're saying is: a) You will ignore evidence unless I waste my time by foraging around for loads of videos are that easily accessible and b) clearly I know nothing because you don't recognize me.
LOL! Well, the good news is that I don't have to convince you. There will always be those who refuse to see what is obvious. I think I'd just prefer to ignore you, because MOST of those whose opinions matter already agreed that this is an issue before I ever started this thread!
LOL! Well, the good news is that I don't have to convince you. There will always be those who refuse to see what is obvious. I think I'd just prefer to ignore you, because MOST of those whose opinions matter already agreed that this is an issue before I ever started this thread!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typically those who are truly correct don't need to ignore anyone, but you can of course do as you wish. I wonder, If I was to post 2 examples of aliens losing after doing a 6 minute Onos, would that be enough to convince you? But of course, you don't need to be convinced right, because you already know that what you believe in is obviously true.
On a side note: I do agree that statistics should speak extensively about balance.
Edit: The difficulty with statistics is that they do not generally represent the full picture. a 50/50 win/loss rate can only tell you how often the teams win or lose. It tells you nothing of the methods that can be used to achieve victory. If the entire game revolves around a single strategy while maintaining a 50/50 win rate, the game will be bland.
I would be very surprised if UWE does not nerf early onos. Squirreli pretty much <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123748&view=findpost&p=2013821" target="_blank">exactly nails it in his post</a> why early onos is imbalanced. I believe that UWE will certainly nerf early onos, not just because it is overpowered but because:
<ul><li>It removes gameplay diversity and early and midgame now revolves around early onos and countering early onos</li><li>Onos is the lowest skill lifeform in NS2 and does not promote high-skill play</li><li>Onos is intended to be a endgame unit and I'm sure that UWE never intended for NS2 to be a game where endgame units were consistently popping up in the first 5 minutes long before fades</li><li>There have been tons of complaints from players</li><li>There is a consensus in the competitive community that it is imbalanced</li></ul>I think the only question is when it is addressed. The other factor is that UWE will probably need to playtest before they nerf early onos because I actually feel that aliens are relying heavily on early onos to survive early game right now, and in its absence marines might dominate over aliens, therefore requiring boost to aliens or nerfs to marines.