Honestly i think the fade seems lacking because theres no lerk to back him anymore. In ns1 for example a good lerk would always spore marines and strip them of their armor so fades could clean them up. UWE should try addind ranged spores back before buffing the fade because really theres no synergy between the two lifeforms.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1, for some reason, fades appeared at different times (I don't really remember). Whilst lots of people used them, a common team I remember is 2 fades, a lerk, 2 gorges and skulks. Fades were memorable, lerks annoying, skulks had space to operate, onos rarely appeared.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In NS1 a standard sort of strat was two people save for fade, two people drop res nodes at the start, one guy saves for second hive, one guy saves for lerk.
The team res and comm dropping eggs creates loads of problems with balancing the power and availability of lifeforms in NS2. Personally I'd say the team res for alien and personal res for marine has had a negative overall impact on the gameplay.
I've said it before and I will say it again. The biggest fundamental problem with the fade right now is that you are paying 50 res for something that is barely better than a skulk when you could save another 25 res and get a onos that actually can change the game by a lot.
It's very clear that there is a problem with the perception of Fade strength right now in typical games between teams of average players. Supposing we accept the premise that Fades actually are balanced when you get really good with them, then that logically means that their skill curve is too steep. Fades are a very important part of the alien team, or they should be - they shouldn't be so inaccessible. An average skilled Fade should be able to compete against average skilled marines. You should only have to learn all the tricks to compete against marines that are pretty good themselves.
Fade isnt balanced at high level play either, it doesnt really matter what kind of tricks you do at a high level your not really going to miss a fade with a shotgun, now in NS2 currently its pretty luck based if your shot actually connects, but with the current HP of the fade youll get 2shot without carapace with w1.
<!--quoteo(post=2014220:date=Nov 7 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 7 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Supposing we accept the premise that Fades actually are balanced when you get really good with them,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reject that premise simply because of one reality:
NS2 has FAILED to define the <!--coloro:#008080--><span style="color:#008080"><!--/coloro-->assassin-hit/run-blink-in-blink-out<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> role that the Fade is suppose to be.
You <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->can't<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> argue whether Fades are balanced or not <u><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->until<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u> you've <b>properly <u>defined</u></b> and <b>EQUIPPED</b> the Fade with the necessary traits and abilities that resembles what a Surgical Strike-type unit is suppose to have (or have had, such as Focus Swipe, Acid Rocket, and Metabolize in NS1.)
Once the Fade is successfully defined, we'll have a true and complete point of reference should we ever have to balance it.
Otherwise, we're <u>stuck</u> with building premises on <u>false</u> and/or <b>incomplete</b> grounds.
In other words, we need to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->complete<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the bigger picture here BEFORE we make any suggestions and conclusions.
<!--quoteo(post=2014250:date=Nov 7 2012, 10:34 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 7 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was this a problem in NS1? The shotgun/fade dynamic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Fades were a lot stronger, but they were also a lot rarer than NS2 Fades. You'd never see half the team go Fade at the same time in NS1.
NS2 fade doesnt need focus, IMO it would make the fade overpowered (mass fades with focus would be unstoppable).
Personally would rather see changes to the fades abilities because blink should replace shadowstep, vortex needs to be made useful or replaced, and then either shadowstep or some other ability added.
<!--quoteo(post=2014261:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Nov 7 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. Fades were a lot stronger, but they were also a lot rarer than NS2 Fades. You'd never see half the team go Fade at the same time in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and it was also because people gained resources for each kill they got.
Part of the problem with res4kill for NS1 is that it accumulated into the TEAM Resources, which made turtles by far the most successful, and boring thing Marines could do with 1 Hive.
Although res4kill would serve better as a separate topic, it'd be interesting to see how res4kill works against turtles if it applied only to PRES and not TRES.
But the timing of Fades is the last thing we need to worry about.
<!--quoteo(post=2014265:date=Nov 7 2012, 02:41 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 fade doesnt need focus, IMO it would make the fade overpowered (mass fades with focus would be unstoppable).
Personally would rather see changes to the fades abilities because blink should replace shadowstep, vortex needs to be made useful or replaced, and then either shadowstep or some other ability added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're telling me mass shotguns aren't overpowered?
You think if the current Fades (with no changes to armor/health), if given Focus, would be overpowered against MASS shotguns?
On top of that, Marines GET TO RECYCLE WEAPONS! OH THE JOY! THE SHOTGUNS JUST KEEP COMING BACK! It's like FEIGN DEATH FOR MARINES!
CLEARLY YOU JEST.
We can sit here and theorize. I'd rather see it in play. I highly doubt Focus Fades would be OP if they were this paper-weak against a group of Marines (let alone a single one) lined up with Shotguns and a few Exos.
<!--quoteo(post=2014265:date=Nov 7 2012, 06:41 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 fade doesnt need focus, IMO it would make the fade overpowered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In order to take focus in the first 2 hives they would need to lose either carapace or celerity. It would be a bonus for a sacrifice... The only time fade would have Cele,Cara and focus would be three hives. Fast, hard hitting and tough to crack... sounds like a 3/3 Shotgun Jetpack marine to me... Sounds balanced to me.
the NS2 jetpack is a pathetic excuse for a jetpack compared to NS1. If your talking about keeping the fade HP the same them maybe focus could work, but it sounded like an hp increase and focus and metab and acid rocket was what you wanted.. clearly im the one jesting...
Focus fades even with their current HP would most likely be OP, simply because you could go flash fade before most teams have a0, and enjoy running around 1 swiping marines... Not to mention the impact focus would have on all lifeforms especially skulk (assuming your talking a global upgrade here...) Im not sure you guys actually understand how the progression of upgrades and lifeforms works in NS2 currently at all. Every single NS1 upgrade has had its effectiveness massively reduced in NS2, how focus would get nerfed would also play a big role.
Either buff fades or reduce their cost...onosies are the end-all now because fades aren't worth the res. And on the subject of shotguns.....can we make it a bit more consistent...and not do 12391623841231489 damage from 600 yards away around a corner and then 10 damage to the cyst im standing on.
Aliens aren't fun to play because noone wants to wait 8-10 minutes for the tres or pres to evolve into something useful
<!--quoteo(post=2014336:date=Nov 7 2012, 11:51 AM:name=kast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kast @ Nov 7 2012, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens aren't fun to play because noone wants to wait 8-10 minutes for the tres or pres to evolve into something useful<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gorges and lerks are useful
the problem is just the fade usefulness compared to its price, other forms are great and fun to play with and can be accessed very early
I almost wish we had two more lifeforms, one to flesh out the lack of a damage-dealing midgame unit, and one 'caster' unit with abilities like the Vortex, an area deafen effects, ability to mess with lights, stuff like that. That way the Fade could remain a sneaky assassin.
Only five alien lifeforms sucks. One's a decent combat unit that gradually becomes more ###### as the game goes on, one's a pure support class with a useful armor-killing gimmick, another is a pure support class with mild harassment ability, one's a fragile assassin, and one's an endgame tank.
40% of the lifeforms are not combat units and are of niche use. A further 20% isn't even viable until the endgame (cheese aside).
Marines get an LMG, a flamethrower, a shotgun, a grenade launcher, an exosuit minigun, and soon an exosuit railgun. On top of a hatchet and pistol. And a jetpack. They have all kinds of options. Aliens don't have ###### for options.
My biggest issue with the fade right now is the lack of definition of the Fade's roll as an evolution.
The NS1 Fade was perfectly in line with the rest of the evolutions. Skulk your foot soldier, Gorge your builder, Lerk your support, Fade your commando, Onos your tank.
The NS1 Fade abilities synced beautifully into the Fade's role on the alien team. Blink and Regen went so well together(Perhaps TOO well) and could be complemented by an Acid Rocket harass.
The NS2 Fade baffles me. It's a jack of all trades, but none of his abilities sync well and it makes him(Her? I'd hit it) awkward to play.
Lack of focus makes kills difficult for an alien that is supposed to be an assassin. Having to research Blink is horrendous. Blink is a corner stone ability that makes a fade a fade. If there's anything I'd change, it's this. Blink should be given on evolution to Fade, no research. A Fade may as well be a walking 50 res down the garbage without blink. Vortex is cool. Don't get me wrong about this. It's awesome and I love the creativity with this ability. However, I don't like the fact that you need to run into a bunch of enemies, stand there and cast it. It's awkward on a character that is supposed to be moving constantly and it feels clunky stopping to cast it instead of just straight killing enemies. Having this ability on a fighter role like the fade doesn't make sense. I'd much rather see it on the Alien commander so that it can be placed down on areas like bone wall. It definitely seems more like a team fight assist ability that the comm should be maintaining.
My one last gripe is end game. This isn't about fade survivability, this is about LMG damage in general. Even with LMGs, almost every lifeform except Onos becomes useless. LMGs need to be toned down or survivability to scale for aliens as the game progresses. Having to use 5 onos to end a game is boring and unfun. I'd much rather have Onos survivability toned down and Fade survivability brought up so that the two can better complement each other in end game team fights. Having to require 5 onos' stomp and horn marines to death is boring. It doesn't even have to be Fades that can have survivability buffed, Lerks could use some love in that department as well since they are required to get in the fight to gas and umbra teammates. End game team fighting should not rely on one lifeform but a mix of all lifeforms that form a strategy and complement each other in the fighting.
Little backstory, I was often the carry-fade in one of Aus's, and definitely NZ's top NS1 Clan.
Fade has an unequalled map prescence, unlike exo and onos, fade is the key to alien map control in the mid-game, pre onos.
You can defend hives, (critical with no shade teleport), you can hit res points then in 30 secs hit the other side of the map and keep the rine def. struggling to keep up, you can hit PG's then get out, kill it or not, a good fade can tie-up the marine def. and can react quicker than any other alien unit to a hive defence ( outside of actually spawning in said hive ).
Onos is the def. breaker, Fade is the early counter to rines and their PG's.
I feel like this is more balanced by far, Im still learning NS2, i avoided Beta to just enjoy the full release. This soft-fade, makes for far more tactical play, it evens out the mid-early game of rines range-turtling expansions, and doesn't turn into an early game crushing carry, like it once was ( for me anyway ).
I even slaughtered heavy welder trains in a few clan matches, NS1 fade might have been fkin awesome, but lets not kid ourselves, it was far from balanced.
TLDR; Unmatched manouverability in exchange for higher dps and tankiness, makes for a tough learning curve, but a better balance to the game. Even if it does promote the safer alternative of just T-ressing/saving for Onos instead.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 07:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus fades even with their current HP would most likely be OP, simply because you could go flash fade before most teams have a0, and enjoy running around 1 swiping marines... Not to mention the impact focus would have on all lifeforms especially skulk (assuming your talking a global upgrade here...) Im not sure you guys actually understand how the progression of upgrades and lifeforms works in NS2 currently at all. Every single NS1 upgrade has had its effectiveness massively reduced in NS2, how focus would get nerfed would also play a big role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lolwhat? No A1 at 8 min mark? They deserve to lose...
Also Focus added as a global upgrade would mean skulks couldn't go cele-cara and would have to be cara-focus or cele-focus... Seems like a fair drawback to me.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I think adding metabolize as a replacement for Vortex would do a lot to balance out the feeling of paper fades.
If you watch the old NS1 demo's (I have been a bit recently), you notice that the fades weren't that strong against marines, but they could very easily blink away, metabolize around the corner, then jump back into action, some Pro fades even metabolized during fights :P
One of the biggest changes between NS1 and NS2 has been the need for all alien lifeforms to be much more reliant on Gorge healing support. With the gorge being a relatively weak life-form, and this new found dependance on it to stay alive, aliens attacks etc are generally much weaker. NS1 had DC's that could heal well, regeneration was more effective, and fades had metabolize. Crags do not compare to DC's for healing, regeneration is massively toned down, and fades cannot metabolize. I understand this was to make the gorge more important as a field medic because it no longer built everything, but to sustain a decent assault in NS2, you really need at least 2 Gorges. With a commander now on aliens, an alien attack squad is greatly reduced in damage output.
I think a slightly tougher and better healing Gorge, and giving the Fades back Metabolize would do a lot to return the power of an alien attack squad, and reduce the weak fade feeling.
NS1 Fades weren't commandos, they were superskulks. NS2 Fade is more like a commando, but his price is too high for how fragile he is, and he's unable to carry a team through the midgame, Either make him cheaper or more durable. But like I said, I support new lifeforms to not only fill in the gaps, but <u>make this feel like it's actually NS<b>2</b></u>.
<!--quoteo(post=2014446:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:16 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Nov 7 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think adding metabolize as a replacement for Vortex would do a lot to balance out the feeling of paper fades.
If you watch the old NS1 demo's (I have been a bit recently), you notice that the fades weren't that strong against marines, but they could very easily blink away, metabolize around the corner, then jump back into action, some Pro fades even metabolized during fights :P
One of the biggest changes between NS1 and NS2 has been the need for all alien lifeforms to be much more reliant on Gorge healing support. With the gorge being a relatively weak life-form, and this new found dependance on it to stay alive, aliens attacks etc are generally much weaker. NS1 had DC's that could heal well, regeneration was more effective, and fades had metabolize. Crags do not compare to DC's for healing, regeneration is massively toned down, and fades cannot metabolize. I understand this was to make the gorge more important as a field medic because it no longer built everything, but to sustain a decent assault in NS2, you really need at least 2 Gorges. With a commander now on aliens, an alien attack squad is greatly reduced in damage output.
I think a slightly tougher and better healing Gorge, and giving the Fades back Metabolize would do a lot to return the power of an alien attack squad, and reduce the weak fade feeling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree, metabolism at 3 hives would be too late to make any difference. At 3rd hive (12 mins?) the fade needs the ability to do damage faster/have more health... Metabolism will make it alot tougher (everyone used it during fights in ns1) and allow it to heal faster and thus hit more often but when your taking 2 shots to die being able to have a small amount of health regeneration + infinite energy isn't even that much of a buff. The reason Metabolism was amazing in NS1 was because of focus, you could blink around spamming metabolism and duck in for a 150dmg hit, then return to metabolism spamming. With the NS1 fade you dont die whilst dodging, you die whilst trying to do some damage sat swiping away on the floor because you have to little health to even make it to melee range late game.
You realize you see onos at 7-8 minute mark with tres eggs right? so fade could be obtainable around 5-6?.. Exactly my point about having no clue about the upgrade/lifeform timings, Marines generally cannot afford quick upgrades with the lower starting tres compared to NS1. Also you complete ignore the part about every upgrade being reduced in effectiveness from NS1 (well except cara sorta), how do plan to make focus not the defacto standard?
And saying NS1 fade was unbalanced is pretty laughable...
<!--quoteo(post=2014469:date=Nov 7 2012, 09:28 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realize you see onos at 5-6 minute mark with tres eggs right? so fade could be obtainable around 4-5?.. Exactly my point about having no clue about the upgrade/lifeform timings, Marines generally cannot afford quick upgrades with the lower starting tres compared to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt we will see fades dropped before blink is researched. Not to mention carapace... meaning that fade eggs will be pushed back by requirements that an onos simply doesn't need.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the NS2 jetpack is a pathetic excuse for a jetpack compared to NS1. If your talking about keeping the fade HP the same them maybe focus could work, but it sounded like an hp increase and focus and metab and acid rocket was what you wanted.. clearly im the one jesting...
Focus fades even with their current HP would most likely be OP, simply because you could go flash fade before most teams have a0, and enjoy running around 1 swiping marines... Not to mention the impact focus would have on all lifeforms especially skulk (assuming your talking a global upgrade here...) Im not sure you guys actually understand how the progression of upgrades and lifeforms works in NS2 currently at all. Every single NS1 upgrade has had its effectiveness massively reduced in NS2, how focus would get nerfed would also play a big role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I said give <u>FADES</u> Focus Swipe, not globally.
Giving Focus to Skulks would make Fades even more useless than it is now.
Do you know what "<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->flash<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" (Fade) even mean? By definition, it means a player's life-span ends as quick as a FLASH. Thus, your scenario would have the Fade live for maybe 1 base assault.....and that's it....and making it....OP? ???
Semantics aside, even if the Marines don't have armor 1 by the time a Fade comes out, then who's fault is it?
The Kharaa <i>racking</i> up resources?
Or the Marines fault, who are either
1.)Lacking resources. or 2.)Spending it <u>unwisely</u>.
Besides, your concern about fade eggs being dropped is (should be) irrelevant.
Khammander dropped eggs and the balance surrounding it should revolve around the ABILITIES of the Lifeform, NOT vice versa.
<u>FIRST</u> CHANGE FADE.
<u><i>THEN</i></u> CHANGE BALANCE AROUND KHAMMANDER DROPPED LIFEFORMS.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the NS2 jetpack is a pathetic excuse for a jetpack compared to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The jetpack is <u>still</u> capable of outmaneuvering the current Fade enough to kill it with <u>2-3</u> Shotgun shots.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your talking about keeping the fade HP the same them maybe focus <u>could work</u>,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus fades even with their current HP <u>would most likely be OP</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could work but <b>not</b> work?
????
Based from what you've said, it seems you <i>enjoy</i> being the paper-armor'd Fade and enjoy spending unjustified 50 res on basically a <u>giant <b>Skulk</b>. </u> Either that, or you enjoy shooting as a Marine than you do playing as a Kharaa.
If you don't agree with Focus Swipe for a 50 Res life-form, then tell us how a real "surgical striker" should play.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>Come up with something</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
Don't expect some of us to sit here and buy arguments like "HURR FOCUS FADE TOO OP" nonsense by bringing up baseless and impossible scenarios that <i>hardly</i>, <b>HARDLY</b> ever occur in-game (Fades popping up early game vs. Armor 0 marines? Really? That's your concern?)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->50 RES. YOU [should] GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
In this case, <i><u>WE DONT</u></i>.
Instead, we have the issue of <!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->Shotguns vs. Fades<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> >Reusable 20 Res >2-Shot kill [W1-3] against Fades vs. 5 Fade Swipes against Armor 3
Or the issue with <!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->Grenade Launchers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> >Reusable 25 Res >Excessive player damage for something that's easily spam'd by >1 Marine = Prolonging games in potential turtle'd techpoints.
<b>STICK</b> WITH <u>THE BASICS</u>.
The VERY <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->DEFINITION<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Hit<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-and-<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->Run<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> is a "<u>BRIEF</u> attack followed by a <i>QUICK</i> escape"
Metabolize is just <u>not enough</u> to fulfill that definition. Focus Swipe <b>must</b> <u>co-exist</u> with Metabolize.
<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->BUILD THE NECESSARY <b>FOUNDATION<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> for the Fade <b>before</b> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->complicating<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I'm so glad the past two pages have been bringing up the need for proper role implementation in the name of soft RPS mechanics! :)
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want
Comments
In NS1 a standard sort of strat was two people save for fade, two people drop res nodes at the start, one guy saves for second hive, one guy saves for lerk.
The team res and comm dropping eggs creates loads of problems with balancing the power and availability of lifeforms in NS2. Personally I'd say the team res for alien and personal res for marine has had a negative overall impact on the gameplay.
I reject that premise simply because of one reality:
NS2 has FAILED to define the <!--coloro:#008080--><span style="color:#008080"><!--/coloro-->assassin-hit/run-blink-in-blink-out<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> role that the Fade is suppose to be.
You <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->can't<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> argue whether Fades are balanced or not <u><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->until<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u> you've <b>properly <u>defined</u></b> and <b>EQUIPPED</b> the Fade with the necessary traits and abilities that resembles what a Surgical Strike-type unit is suppose to have (or have had, such as Focus Swipe, Acid Rocket, and Metabolize in NS1.)
Once the Fade is successfully defined, we'll have a true and complete point of reference should we ever have to balance it.
Otherwise, we're <u>stuck</u> with building premises on <u>false</u> and/or <b>incomplete</b> grounds.
In other words, we need to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->complete<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the bigger picture here BEFORE we make any suggestions and conclusions.
No. Fades were a lot stronger, but they were also a lot rarer than NS2 Fades. You'd never see half the team go Fade at the same time in NS1.
Personally would rather see changes to the fades abilities because blink should replace shadowstep, vortex needs to be made useful or replaced, and then either shadowstep or some other ability added.
Yes, and it was also because people gained resources for each kill they got.
Part of the problem with res4kill for NS1 is that it accumulated into the TEAM Resources, which made turtles by far the most successful, and boring thing Marines could do with 1 Hive.
Although res4kill would serve better as a separate topic, it'd be interesting to see how res4kill works against turtles if it applied only to PRES and not TRES.
But the timing of Fades is the last thing we need to worry about.
Personally would rather see changes to the fades abilities because blink should replace shadowstep, vortex needs to be made useful or replaced, and then either shadowstep or some other ability added.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're telling me mass shotguns aren't overpowered?
You think if the current Fades (with no changes to armor/health), if given Focus, would be overpowered against MASS shotguns?
On top of that, Marines GET TO RECYCLE WEAPONS! OH THE JOY! THE SHOTGUNS JUST KEEP COMING BACK! It's like FEIGN DEATH FOR MARINES!
CLEARLY YOU JEST.
We can sit here and theorize. I'd rather see it in play. I highly doubt Focus Fades would be OP if they were this paper-weak against a group of Marines (let alone a single one) lined up with Shotguns and a few Exos.
In order to take focus in the first 2 hives they would need to lose either carapace or celerity.
It would be a bonus for a sacrifice... The only time fade would have Cele,Cara and focus would be three hives.
Fast, hard hitting and tough to crack... sounds like a 3/3 Shotgun Jetpack marine to me... Sounds balanced to me.
Focus fades even with their current HP would most likely be OP, simply because you could go flash fade before most teams have a0, and enjoy running around 1 swiping marines... Not to mention the impact focus would have on all lifeforms especially skulk (assuming your talking a global upgrade here...) Im not sure you guys actually understand how the progression of upgrades and lifeforms works in NS2 currently at all. Every single NS1 upgrade has had its effectiveness massively reduced in NS2, how focus would get nerfed would also play a big role.
Either buff fades or reduce their cost...onosies are the end-all now because fades aren't worth the res. And on the subject of shotguns.....can we make it a bit more consistent...and not do 12391623841231489 damage from 600 yards away around a corner and then 10 damage to the cyst im standing on.
Aliens aren't fun to play because noone wants to wait 8-10 minutes for the tres or pres to evolve into something useful
gorges and lerks are useful
the problem is just the fade usefulness compared to its price, other forms are great and fun to play with and can be accessed very early
Only five alien lifeforms sucks. One's a decent combat unit that gradually becomes more ###### as the game goes on, one's a pure support class with a useful armor-killing gimmick, another is a pure support class with mild harassment ability, one's a fragile assassin, and one's an endgame tank.
40% of the lifeforms are not combat units and are of niche use. A further 20% isn't even viable until the endgame (cheese aside).
Marines get an LMG, a flamethrower, a shotgun, a grenade launcher, an exosuit minigun, and soon an exosuit railgun. On top of a hatchet and pistol. And a jetpack. They have all kinds of options. Aliens don't have ###### for options.
MORE ALIEN LIFEFORMS TO ADD VARIETY.
The NS1 Fade was perfectly in line with the rest of the evolutions.
Skulk your foot soldier,
Gorge your builder,
Lerk your support,
Fade your commando,
Onos your tank.
The NS1 Fade abilities synced beautifully into the Fade's role on the alien team.
Blink and Regen went so well together(Perhaps TOO well) and could be complemented by an Acid Rocket harass.
The NS2 Fade baffles me. It's a jack of all trades, but none of his abilities sync well and it makes him(Her? I'd hit it) awkward to play.
Lack of focus makes kills difficult for an alien that is supposed to be an assassin.
Having to research Blink is horrendous. Blink is a corner stone ability that makes a fade a fade. If there's anything I'd change, it's this. Blink should be given on evolution to Fade, no research. A Fade may as well be a walking 50 res down the garbage without blink.
Vortex is cool. Don't get me wrong about this. It's awesome and I love the creativity with this ability. However, I don't like the fact that you need to run into a bunch of enemies, stand there and cast it. It's awkward on a character that is supposed to be moving constantly and it feels clunky stopping to cast it instead of just straight killing enemies. Having this ability on a fighter role like the fade doesn't make sense. I'd much rather see it on the Alien commander so that it can be placed down on areas like bone wall. It definitely seems more like a team fight assist ability that the comm should be maintaining.
My one last gripe is end game. This isn't about fade survivability, this is about LMG damage in general. Even with LMGs, almost every lifeform except Onos becomes useless. LMGs need to be toned down or survivability to scale for aliens as the game progresses. Having to use 5 onos to end a game is boring and unfun. I'd much rather have Onos survivability toned down and Fade survivability brought up so that the two can better complement each other in end game team fights. Having to require 5 onos' stomp and horn marines to death is boring. It doesn't even have to be Fades that can have survivability buffed, Lerks could use some love in that department as well since they are required to get in the fight to gas and umbra teammates. End game team fighting should not rely on one lifeform but a mix of all lifeforms that form a strategy and complement each other in the fighting.
That's my rant.
And I'm Webbing to it.
Little backstory, I was often the carry-fade in one of Aus's, and definitely NZ's top NS1 Clan.
Fade has an unequalled map prescence, unlike exo and onos, fade is the key to alien map control in the mid-game, pre onos.
You can defend hives, (critical with no shade teleport), you can hit res points then in 30 secs hit the other side of the map and keep the rine def. struggling to keep up, you can hit PG's then get out, kill it or not, a good fade can tie-up the marine def. and can react quicker than any other alien unit to a hive defence ( outside of actually spawning in said hive ).
Onos is the def. breaker, Fade is the early counter to rines and their PG's.
I feel like this is more balanced by far, Im still learning NS2, i avoided Beta to just enjoy the full release. This soft-fade, makes for far more tactical play, it evens out the mid-early game of rines range-turtling expansions, and doesn't turn into an early game crushing carry, like it once was ( for me anyway ).
I even slaughtered heavy welder trains in a few clan matches, NS1 fade might have been fkin awesome, but lets not kid ourselves, it was far from balanced.
TLDR; Unmatched manouverability in exchange for higher dps and tankiness, makes for a tough learning curve, but a better balance to the game. Even if it does promote the safer alternative of just T-ressing/saving for Onos instead.
Lolwhat? No A1 at 8 min mark? They deserve to lose...
Also Focus added as a global upgrade would mean skulks couldn't go cele-cara and would have to be cara-focus or cele-focus...
Seems like a fair drawback to me.
If you watch the old NS1 demo's (I have been a bit recently), you notice that the fades weren't that strong against marines, but they could very easily blink away, metabolize around the corner, then jump back into action, some Pro fades even metabolized during fights :P
One of the biggest changes between NS1 and NS2 has been the need for all alien lifeforms to be much more reliant on Gorge healing support. With the gorge being a relatively weak life-form, and this new found dependance on it to stay alive, aliens attacks etc are generally much weaker. NS1 had DC's that could heal well, regeneration was more effective, and fades had metabolize. Crags do not compare to DC's for healing, regeneration is massively toned down, and fades cannot metabolize. I understand this was to make the gorge more important as a field medic because it no longer built everything, but to sustain a decent assault in NS2, you really need at least 2 Gorges. With a commander now on aliens, an alien attack squad is greatly reduced in damage output.
I think a slightly tougher and better healing Gorge, and giving the Fades back Metabolize would do a lot to return the power of an alien attack squad, and reduce the weak fade feeling.
If you watch the old NS1 demo's (I have been a bit recently), you notice that the fades weren't that strong against marines, but they could very easily blink away, metabolize around the corner, then jump back into action, some Pro fades even metabolized during fights :P
One of the biggest changes between NS1 and NS2 has been the need for all alien lifeforms to be much more reliant on Gorge healing support. With the gorge being a relatively weak life-form, and this new found dependance on it to stay alive, aliens attacks etc are generally much weaker. NS1 had DC's that could heal well, regeneration was more effective, and fades had metabolize. Crags do not compare to DC's for healing, regeneration is massively toned down, and fades cannot metabolize. I understand this was to make the gorge more important as a field medic because it no longer built everything, but to sustain a decent assault in NS2, you really need at least 2 Gorges. With a commander now on aliens, an alien attack squad is greatly reduced in damage output.
I think a slightly tougher and better healing Gorge, and giving the Fades back Metabolize would do a lot to return the power of an alien attack squad, and reduce the weak fade feeling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree, metabolism at 3 hives would be too late to make any difference.
At 3rd hive (12 mins?) the fade needs the ability to do damage faster/have more health... Metabolism will make it alot tougher (everyone used it during fights in ns1) and allow it to heal faster and thus hit more often but when your taking 2 shots to die being able to have a small amount of health regeneration + infinite energy isn't even that much of a buff. The reason Metabolism was amazing in NS1 was because of focus, you could blink around spamming metabolism and duck in for a 150dmg hit, then return to metabolism spamming.
With the NS1 fade you dont die whilst dodging, you die whilst trying to do some damage sat swiping away on the floor because you have to little health to even make it to melee range late game.
And saying NS1 fade was unbalanced is pretty laughable...
I doubt we will see fades dropped before blink is researched.
Not to mention carapace... meaning that fade eggs will be pushed back by requirements that an onos simply doesn't need.
Focus fades even with their current HP would most likely be OP, simply because you could go flash fade before most teams have a0, and enjoy running around 1 swiping marines... Not to mention the impact focus would have on all lifeforms especially skulk (assuming your talking a global upgrade here...) Im not sure you guys actually understand how the progression of upgrades and lifeforms works in NS2 currently at all. Every single NS1 upgrade has had its effectiveness massively reduced in NS2, how focus would get nerfed would also play a big role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said give <u>FADES</u> Focus Swipe, not globally.
Giving Focus to Skulks would make Fades even more useless than it is now.
Do you know what "<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->flash<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->" (Fade) even mean? By definition, it means a player's life-span ends as quick as a FLASH.
Thus, your scenario would have the Fade live for maybe 1 base assault.....and that's it....and making it....OP?
???
Semantics aside, even if the Marines don't have armor 1 by the time a Fade comes out, then who's fault is it?
The Kharaa <i>racking</i> up resources?
Or the Marines fault, who are either
1.)Lacking resources.
or
2.)Spending it <u>unwisely</u>.
Besides, your concern about fade eggs being dropped is (should be) irrelevant.
Khammander dropped eggs and the balance surrounding it should revolve around the ABILITIES of the Lifeform, NOT vice versa.
<u>FIRST</u> CHANGE FADE.
<u><i>THEN</i></u> CHANGE BALANCE AROUND KHAMMANDER DROPPED LIFEFORMS.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the NS2 jetpack is a pathetic excuse for a jetpack compared to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The jetpack is <u>still</u> capable of outmaneuvering the current Fade enough to kill it with <u>2-3</u> Shotgun shots.
<!--quoteo(post=2014331:date=Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Nov 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2014331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your talking about keeping the fade HP the same them maybe focus <u>could work</u>,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus fades even with their current HP <u>would most likely be OP</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could work but <b>not</b> work?
????
Based from what you've said, it seems you <i>enjoy</i> being the paper-armor'd Fade and enjoy spending unjustified 50 res on basically a <u>giant <b>Skulk</b>.
</u>
Either that, or you enjoy shooting as a Marine than you do playing as a Kharaa.
If you don't agree with Focus Swipe for a 50 Res life-form, then tell us how a real "surgical striker" should play.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>Come up with something</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.
Don't expect some of us to sit here and buy arguments like "HURR FOCUS FADE TOO OP" nonsense by bringing up baseless and impossible scenarios that <i>hardly</i>, <b>HARDLY</b> ever occur in-game (Fades popping up early game vs. Armor 0 marines? Really? That's your concern?)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->50 RES.
YOU [should] GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
In this case, <i><u>WE DONT</u></i>.
Instead, we have the issue of <!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->Shotguns vs. Fades<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
>Reusable 20 Res
>2-Shot kill [W1-3] against Fades vs. 5 Fade Swipes against Armor 3
Or the issue with <!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->Grenade Launchers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
>Reusable 25 Res
>Excessive player damage for something that's easily spam'd by >1 Marine = Prolonging games in potential turtle'd techpoints.
<b>STICK</b> WITH <u>THE BASICS</u>.
The VERY <!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->DEFINITION<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Hit<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->-and-<!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->Run<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> is a "<u>BRIEF</u> attack followed by a <i>QUICK</i> escape"
Metabolize is just <u>not enough</u> to fulfill that definition.
Focus Swipe <b>must</b> <u>co-exist</u> with Metabolize.
<!--coloro:#FFFACD--><span style="color:#FFFACD"><!--/coloro-->BUILD THE NECESSARY <b>FOUNDATION<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> for the Fade <b>before</b> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->complicating<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> it.
if this is addressed properly you can have fade wrecking balls that feel like a beast to play as and yet would fail horribly if the whole team went fade (something that happens) similar to how exos work.
find a way to make teams of them not viable or risky and then you can make them as powerful as you want