Can We All Agree That Late Game Aliens Isn't Terribly Fun?
Al_Ka_Pwn
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63264Members
Early game is the most fun it seems, you hide up in the rafters as a skulk and wait in silence as your prey clomps by and when they get past you, you drop down and strike from behind. You really feel like a dog sized batman, getting leap and flying off the wall to land a perfect kill and then leaping away. And then lerks, flying into people's faces and biting them to death and flying away before their friends can do anything. Gorges set up blockades and place hydras in clever spots to trap any unsuspecting idiots. The whole clot thing is brilliant and feels useful. It all feels really good.
but then when the marines have exos and level 3 everything it just does not feel as fun. Skulks are basically only good for taking down towers, fades are no where to be seen, lerk's only duty is crop dusting yellow and green and trying not to die. Gorges are chained to onoses just holding right mouse button and usually dying to GLs. And everyone has to be an onos.
Does anyone else really find the end part of the game to be very fun at all?
but then when the marines have exos and level 3 everything it just does not feel as fun. Skulks are basically only good for taking down towers, fades are no where to be seen, lerk's only duty is crop dusting yellow and green and trying not to die. Gorges are chained to onoses just holding right mouse button and usually dying to GLs. And everyone has to be an onos.
Does anyone else really find the end part of the game to be very fun at all?
Comments
However that doesn't mean that its not still fun to support as a lerk or gorge and to be a boss onos. I definitely enjoy fulfilling all 3 of those late game roles. The problem lies in that many people don't realize the power of the gorge yet so they just run around dieing over and over as a skulk when they could be more helpful spamming bile bombs and heals.
Wanna go early Lerk? You will surely decimate the unupgraded marines, being able to easily take down lone marines, and do substantial damage even to groups of marines, without much risk of being taken down. But if you die, you are going back to skulk, and the time you sacrificed when skulks were still pretty powerful at the start of the game is going to come back to bite you.
As an alien, you have the ability to, with basically every evolution (when played properly), be more powerful than any single marine could be, and indeed be more powerful than a group of marines could hope to be. But with that comes a price. You cannot have 8 players on either team who are perfectly evenly matched at the lowest level of tech, when one team's higher tech units outclass the other teams. That is called an imbalance. Marines typically have largely equal power across all players, exo or vanilla, they just fulfil different roles. While it is true that every alien has a very specific role to play, there is simply more power running around in an Onos than there is in a skulk. And that is asymmetry.
THAT is fun. What isn't fun is marines turtling behind blocking armories with 3-4 grenade launchers on jetpacks, a bunch of shotguns and flamers and a couple exos.
It's not that late game aliens is not fun, it's that when the marines start playing in that boring way there's no fun in trying to counter them, because they aren't doing anything, and there's no way to be even slightly cost efficient. Marines are overwhelmingly overpowered in the heavy defensive stance. They're damn hard to kill if they aren't moving anywhere.
mainly because of lerk, i LOVE that gas... i find it hard to see how any marine can kill you in 1v1, and you're almost essential to break a turtle as the spores and umbra are incredibly powerful abilities.
what do marines have? pffft if it wasn't for jetpack, the marines would still be playing the same early, mid and late game :o
Totally agreed on this, and this would guarantee higher survival rates, also marines are so damn fast not to mention bunny hopping !
And maybe Armory not repairing armor.
And Hive teleport.
And RFK (or any dynamic type of ResFlow) for Aliens.
^
|
|
what he said!
However, still better than ns1's turtling/prolonging, which made 90% of lost matches of marine to turn into winning game after prolonging it 30 minutes and then jetpack rush.
Whip and Fade vortex are so needed to be improved.
And maybe Armory not repairing armor.
And Hive teleport.
And RFK (or any dynamic type of ResFlow) for Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely summed. (Edit: Oh, and the ability to choose the hive where you spawn)
Right now the fade is the most apparent underdog in the alien late game (and maybe not fun), but focus would likely make the situation a lot better.
I've been playing a lot as a lerk recently and once I got the hang of it's role I must say that it may be the most fun alien class, as it's useful at every point in the game. Also, if you happen to die as a lerk, you probably already have enough pres to go lerk again.
but then when the marines have exos and level 3 everything it just does not feel as fun. Skulks are basically only good for taking down towers, fades are no where to be seen, lerk's only duty is crop dusting yellow and green and trying not to die. Gorges are chained to onoses just holding right mouse button and usually dying to GLs. And everyone has to be an onos.
Does anyone else really find the end part of the game to be very fun at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you've played enough matches to say that late game aliens aren't very fun, and/or you haven't played ANY games where the alien team cooperates together effectively, and/or you don't fully understand the role of each alien.
First, you're looking at it purely from a gameplay perspective without any consideration for the overall team effort. That's a mistake, this game is all about teamwork and communication. The gameplay is important too, but your skulk/lerk/whatever is still part of a team and the early game tactics you used in early game no longer work as effectively in end game. Your original question is how to find 'fun' in end game when the 'marines have exos and level 3 everything', right? Obviously it isn't fun when you fly your 30 res lerk into someone's face - where their shotgun targeting reticule is - and you end up as lerk paste. Nor is it fun when you ambush an exo/welder pair as a skulk with (at most) 70hp/30a and get curbstomped by dual miniguns.
Here's the problem - you found it fun in the beginning because you were able to do those things with impunity. You were Batdog and you were taking down the Blackgate criminals with your Batteeth and leaping away with your Batfeet. But as these marines levelled up and got tougher, you are now more like Batdog vs Supermarine. You have tricks up your sleeve and you're fast and strong, but in the end Supermarine has flamethrower heat vision, three times more armor than you, he can see you through the wall using his minimap, and he can fly.
If you're trying to solo a level 3/3 marine as a skulk - and I mean, a decent marine who can actually aim - you're doing it wrong, or you're very good at skulk vs marine solo combat. At end game, what you should be doing is munching on RTs and looking for ways to get into their remote bases so you can kill important structures right under their noses, or do scouting for the team reporting on each tech point's vulnerability. Change your definition of 'fun' from being a 'dog sized Batman' into being a harassment/scout unit FOR THE TEAM. Use your mic to keep your commander updated on situations around the map - if you see a vulnerability and there are enough aliens near you, don't be afraid to whip everyone up into a frenzy and rush into base taking down obs/pg/power. The fun comes from enabling your team to work better, stronger, faster.
Say you evolve into a gorge and you find yourself staring into an onos ass as you spray healing spit all over him. Is this all you have to do? Nope. You know what takes bases down faster than an onos? Bile bomb. Drop one and let it work (5 secs), heal the onos, drop another, heal the onos, let your energy recover a bit, repeat. Few things are more gratifying to see a bile bomb land in the middle of a packed marine base and the damage numbers are adding up. You've effectively forced a marine or two to heal the structures. If they don't weld, you can easily wipe out half or more of a marine base all by yourself. If you take down their arms labs, every respawning marine suddenly reverts to level 0 lmg/armor - which could be an instant game changer. If you do so, congrats you've killed 100+ res worth of stuff with a 10 res gorge. All you need is an onos buddy to keep the marines from shooting you - the same onos buddy that you should be healing whenever possible.
What about lerk? Well, for some thing you shouldn't be flying 'directly' at marines and getting shotgunned to the face. Use your extreme speed and mobility, fly around and under obstacles, bridges. Come up behind a line of marines and dust them up with spores. Spray around the armory so that they have to face into it even longer. Fly near marine bases and try to spike the power node/obs/etc. from a distance. Learn to take down JPs with a combination of poison bites, evasive maneuvers and spikes. When you have umbra, use it to support the onos/gorges. You're no longer trying to buff that K/D ratio but instead you're trying to use your abilities to do recon, to soften the enemies up, and to buff the team.
Spoken like a true NS1 vet.
DONT LET HIS JOIN DATE FOOL YOU GUYS.
However, I'd have to agree with the OP's statement, most notably towards the weak ass Fade.
I feel like the Fade is balanced for early game encounters than it is a Late game (*COUGH*GIVE*COUGH*FOCUS*COUGH**COUGH*BACK)....
...which may explain why we see Onos eggs appearing than we do Fades.
DONT LET HIS JOIN DATE FOOL YOU GUYS.
However, I'd have to agree with the OP's statement, most notably towards the weak ass Fade.
I feel like the Fade is balanced for early game encounters than it is a Late game (*COUGH*GIVE*COUGH*FOCUS*COUGH**COUGH*BACK)....
...which may explain why we see Onos eggs appearing than we do Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this guy. And don't let join dates fool you indeed.
So to cut a long story short. End game is fun, It should be played till the end. People should relax from RR'ing. Thats all.
So to cut a long story short. End game is fun, It should be played till the end. People should relax from RR'ing. Thats all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The OP was not talking about that. It was about how the only real end game for aliens is rushing with Onos. Where as marines have a variety of ways to attack late game, with GL's, Exo's, Arcs, Jetpacks, or a combo of all those. Aliens late game is support Onos' rushes. And that's what he finds boring.
I know that, I read it. I was just stating my own opinion, thats all.
Seems that people are just bitter at losing and want to vent frustration...which is what the majority of balance posts and threads are about in any game.
Late game, the enemy is hitting harder, can take more hits, and has a large pool of weapons to choose from. The variety in alien gameplay doesn't feel like it makes it up to me, since they're largely costly and paper thin. Not to mention it takes time to evolve into them. Only one I'd really consider evolving into would be a Lerk, since Fades feel kinda under powered. Onos is great for breaking sieges but really boring to play as.
I think the alien classes, especially the Fade, seem so fragile because marines can get W3 and A3 and all weapon unlocks with only 1 comm chair and can get everything else while holding just 1 more comm chair, while aliens have to rush hive #2 just to survive mid game and finally spam onos to win late.
If aliens are to become less reliant on the onos, there must be major overhauls to the rest of the game. What's the bigger possibility?
Onos spam remaining the bread and butter of the alien victory?
Or...
A complete overhaul of the Alien team and consequently an overhaul of the marines to complement the new balance?
After years of development, I'm sure Unknown Worlds isn't going to be too keen on overhauling the entire game after 1 week of complaints.
Overall, NS2 is an underachievement. Not one new alien lifeform was added; which could have been the life form needed to balance the late game alien strategy Or atleast turn it away from the 5 onos base rush.
And maybe Armory not repairing armor.
And Hive teleport.
And RFK (or any dynamic type of ResFlow) for Aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't hold the fire button when chomping. Actually click and you do more damage per bite. Holding down on the chomp and first bite is high damage, rest are lower and I think proportionate to your remaining energy.
<!--quoteo(post=2013105:date=Nov 7 2012, 07:39 AM:name=Jiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiggles @ Nov 7 2012, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Killing a turtling marine team is dull work. Not hard, exactly, but tedious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree Tedious, but can be fulfilling when it's 1 onos / 1 gorge and 2 exo's with 2 or 3 supporting marines and have 2 rushes you destroy them.
<!--quoteo(post=2013415:date=Nov 7 2012, 12:00 PM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 7 2012, 12:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->except you dont need to support onos rushes, it's better if every single player just goes onos themselves too<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 Exo's and 2 Marines can take down all onos rush. No heals = Fast Deaths
<!--quoteo(post=2013424:date=Nov 7 2012, 12:05 PM:name=SupernaturalCookie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SupernaturalCookie @ Nov 7 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2013424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to agree with the OP honestly. Early game, things seem fairly even. You die easily, but so does the enemy. You need to rely on ambushing to take them down and survive.
Late game, the enemy is hitting harder, can take more hits, and has a large pool of weapons to choose from. The variety in alien gameplay doesn't feel like it makes it up to me, since they're largely costly and paper thin. Not to mention it takes time to evolve into them. Only one I'd really consider evolving into would be a Lerk, since Fades feel kinda under powered. Onos is great for breaking sieges but really boring to play as.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My own personal issue is the fact fresh Marine is stronger than a fresh skulk and a skulk is required to pick their upgrades / evolve to a better form.
Sure Cara/Regen and Silence can help counter that a bit by lasting longer / fast regen and/or getting in the early bite or two before the player has a chance to react, but on a stalemate game it can really be a strong deciding factor. Esp if the Alien Comm screws up and doesn't get cara/regen and is stuck with 2 hives.
This is exactly what should of been kept from ns1
Seems that people are just bitter at losing and want to vent frustration...which is what the majority of balance posts and threads are about in any game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me, it seems this way also
That isnt fun at all imo.
Yet no matter how much you kill marines, they just run right back and pick up their imba grenade launcher or whatever.
If you the game could be balanced so that right from the get go or something you could play what alien you wanted, by there was another upgrade system or something, so that the more hives aliens got the stronger the lifeforms got that combined with tier 1-2-3 armor and weapon system like marines or something.
PLaying all game long as skulk then dying once as onos then going back to skulk. That would be like for marines go play 1 with grenade launcher and then going back to normal weapon for the rest of the game.
i hope UWE are gonna run a PTR server to try and experiment with new changes and major changes.
They might not be keen on huge changes, but sometimes you gotta accept if you build your tower on a ground full of mud, that no matter what i will fall. Then build somewhere else.
If your foundation is crappy and bad, be it balance in a game, be it a house or tower foundation, then whatever you build on top is gonna be just as bad. Sometimes you gotta accept, and start from square one, that is imo the mark of a great developer accepting when stuff isnt fun or working, then completely redo it.