<!--quoteo(post=2012086:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:46 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So fix the tech explosions, don't screw the fade into oblivion... :|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree :) I fully 100% agree
I don't see this happening though, as it means removal of alien tres (commander). This mean's fades need to be weaker, or give aliens something that 2-3 people NEED to spend res on to survive to midgame.
<!--quoteo(post=2012082:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:42 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 5 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think your suggestion, increasing Fade health so that it takes 2 to 3 more shotgun blasts, would <i>severely</i> overpower the Fade in public games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind most public players have somewhere between 10-20 hours of this game and still need to learn to play. Let's not put training wheels on the entire game to satisfy new players... if I was a new player I would rather have the game be hard to master because it becomes more rewarding. I think most real gamers would agree with me. I sucked at CS when I first loaded it... but even getting a kill made me so happy. That's what drove me to get better... because I knew it was hard and it was satisfying.
I'm tired of this scourge that is COD gameplay mechanics.
Have you played in pubs recently? It's rare to see an alien victory that isn't caused by extremely poor marine play (No comm, comm spams turrets, or other factors).
Making the fade better is gonna help the game overall (And will help people start winning on aliens in pubs). I am actually just asking for 1 additional shotgun blast at the moment. Well, make that 1 additional shotgun blast + some pistol damage. That would still be unbalanced for competitive I believe, and even public play in many circumstances.
If they gave the ability to have regen and carapace and left the armor where it is it would be acceptable too. There are many ways to balance it which wouldn't just be an armor increase. Right now you take damage and have to fall back and waste precious time. Regen isn't viable at all... the fade is far too weak with only regen.... and the fade is too tedious with carapace. NS1 you could have the best of both worlds (Decent armor and regeneration). Carapace fade in NS1 was redundant, and I believe should still be the same in NS2. A carapace fade should be defensive, yet it is the only viable option for offense at the moment. An offensive fade should be able to stay in the area of attack for long periods of time. It should be able to go in and out, and not die instantly due to lack of armor / HP. Fades can't deal enough damage currently with how the fade is balanced. The fade is just... bad.
<!--quoteo(post=2012089:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:47 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 6 2012, 03:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades should leave push teams alone. Fades can't stop the marines from moving forward any more. And what's more, they don't need to any more. Fades should be everywhere on the map but where there is more than a few marines. If an area ABSOLUTELY needs to be defended, fades can distract marines so skulks can try to kill them, but I'd argue that if there are more than 2 marines within line of site of eachother, fades should never actually try to swipe them. Even 2 marines can be deadly, you have to be skilled to make 2 marines bad against a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So before your 6 min onos drop what do you actually use to stop push teams? Lerks... wait no... they dont stop push teams? Skulks.. nope... they dont stop them... Gorge?
Fade is our mid game alien unit, we cannot argue it has a "specific" role and "shouldnt be used" to stop hive attacks otherwise the entire Alien game-plan is "wait for a ###### onos you bellends."... Do you want that to be the entire alien game plan?
Why dont we just make it so Marines have to tech to Onos as well in order to do anything useful? For the first 10 mins of the game both teams can be totally window-licker retarded and both teams can just spend all game waiting for onos... Sounds good to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2012090:date=Nov 5 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 5 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As an onos a gorge or two following you, NAR ###### THAT IM GOING TO HEAL AT THE HIVE ITS MUCH QUICKER. YOUR HEAL IS USELESS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not so much that his heal is useless as you have to retreat a billion ###### miles away anyway because Marines can casually sprint after you and shotgun both of you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if I was a new player I would rather have the game be hard to master because it becomes more rewarding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool, can we make that a requirement for both sides then? The skill floor for Aliens is much higher than for Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2012082:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:42 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 6 2012, 04:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, vortex should be reworked or removed. It's a tier 3 ability that serves no purpose and is almost never used. Perhaps another ability could be added in place that, while not buffing the health / armor of the fade, still increased it's survivability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vortex is not useless. You can prevent TWO beacons and waste the marine commanders resources by vortexing the observatory. It can also vortex out exo's and allow onos players to close the gap with the exo's. Sounds pretty powerful to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2012084:date=Nov 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you think at late game a 50 res alien, equivalent of a One Minigun Exo, MORE than a JP+shotgun (5x more if you pick up the shotgun)... Should be killed in 3 hits but take 4 perfect hits to be able to kill a marine? 8 with nano... 12 with nano and med support?
I am glad you think that... /sarcasm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In it's current form I think it should be 45 resources, but that said, you still have to consider the Fade's role. Should a Fade be able to stand toe to toe with an Exo? If you think it should then we have a very different idea of what the Fade should be.
If you want to remove the intended purpose and role of a unit, then I could make an equally incorrect comparison between a skulk (or two or three) that costs 0 resources being extremely effective against a 50 point Exo. Essentially we have the same argument being made here by .ADHd, a group of low cost units are able to take out one higher point unit.
"X" costs "Y" and it can't compete "Z" isn't always the best way to go about balance suggestions. NS2 isn't a game about one unit being inherently better than the other. It's a game about progressing up a tech tree to open up more options.
<!--QuoteBegin-.ADHd+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regen isn't viable at all... the fade is far too weak with only regen.... and the fade is too tedious with carapace. A carapace fade should be defensive, yet it is the only viable option for offense at the moment. An offensive fade should be able to stay in the area of attack for long periods of time. It should be able to go in and out, and not die instantly due to lack of armor / HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. Regen is not viable at all, and I feel that way about Regen with the majority of classes (I almost never play Lerk/Gorge). It sounds like you have more of a problem with Regen than Fade. I would love to see some boost to Regen, like a <i>significantly</i> faster heal if the player is on infestation, for example.
<!--quoteo(post=2012100:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Tharidor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tharidor @ Nov 6 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vortex is not useless. You can prevent TWO beacons and waste the marine commanders resources by vortexing the observatory. It can also vortex out exo's and allow onos players to close the gap with the exo's. Sounds pretty powerful to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly Vortex uses the majority of your energy, meaning that unless you managed to get upto that exo/obs (the centre of a marine base) without using ANY energy that having now used Vortex your on pretty damn low energy... Now try escape.. oh wait, you can... you dont even have enough energy to shadows step... oh... now your dead... so you spent 50 res to disable a beacon once/vortex out an exo long enough for his miniguns to cool down and he can continue firing away as-much as he likes... Useful.
<!--quoteo(post=2012090:date=Nov 6 2012, 01:48 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Nov 6 2012, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit and run tactics are ###### BORING theres a reason i dont play fades EVER is because swiping once then cowaring back to the hive to heal for 20 secs is not my idea of fun.
Winning games is fun, this is why you must do well as a skulk to hold on long enough to get 2nd hive and onos' out the door and win. Its the only way coz the rest of the life forms are crap.
As an onos a gorge or two following you, NAR ###### THAT IM GOING TO HEAL AT THE HIVE ITS MUCH QUICKER. YOUR HEAL IS USELESS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... each to their own but I completely disagree.
One of the most enjoyable parts of being a fade is tip-toeing that line of life/death. You are running in, doing as much damage as you can and fleeing. Most of the time with 100 hp (4 pistol bullets or half a shotgun blast). Very exciting, especially when their is alot of pressure (scrims/matches).
Also... for 99% of people that never play scrims/matches fades are completely fine for pubs. I still maintain insane KD's in pubs, their is a skill curve to it that 99% of people will never hit. Fading is more about in game decision making, reaction and game smarts which alot of people don't know unless they faded in NS1.
Also I woudn't say that fades are useless, there are other things external to the fade that build up against them - Cheap arms lab upgrades - Armouries that heal armor - They come out late due to RFD - Inabilitiy for lerks to harass with projectile spore - Marines pres = so much more shotguns on the field. They need a hp buff to not get 2 shot so easily, 3 shot with cara would be fine...
I think the problem is more with overpowered shot guns and armories that repair armor. I would like to see those fixed first before just buffing the fade.
Edit, also armories are only ten t.res right? I would up that a bit to prevent them from being spammed at ever part of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2012103:date=Nov 6 2012, 03:59 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 6 2012, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In it's current form I think it should be 45 resources, but that said, you still have to consider the Fade's role. Should a Fade be able to stand toe to toe with an Exo? If you think it should then we have a very different idea of what the Fade should be.
If you want to remove the intended purpose and role of a unit, then I could make an equally incorrect comparison between a skulk (or two or three) that costs 0 resources being extremely effective against a 50 point Exo. Essentially we have the same argument being made here by .ADHd, a group of low cost units are able to take out one higher point unit.
"X" costs "Y" and it can't compete "Z" isn't always the best way to go about balance suggestions. NS2 isn't a game about one unit being inherently better than the other. It's a game about progressing up a tech tree to open up more options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said they should be the same role, Exo is a slow push/area fortification unit. Fade is a hit and run, resource protector and chaos maker.
But the current balance of the fade is still ludicrous.
<!--quoteo(post=2012107:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm... each to their own but I completely disagree.
One of the most enjoyable parts of being a fade is tip-toeing that line of life/death. You are running in, doing as much damage as you can and fleeing. Most of the time with 100 hp (4 pistol bullets or half a shotgun blast). Very exciting, especially when their is alot of pressure (scrims/matches).
Also... for 99% of people that never play scrims/matches fades are completely fine. I still maintain insane KD's in pubs, their is a skill curve to it that 99% of people will never hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This... just.... this... Except the last bit, I am sure we all get stupid scores as fade in pubs... until mass grenade launchers show up.
<!--quoteo(post=2012107:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I woudn't say that fades are useless, there are other things external to the fade that build up against them - Cheap arms lab upgrades - Armouries that heal armor - They come out late due to RFD - Inabilitiy for lerks to harass with projectile spore - Marines pres = so much more shotguns on the field. They need a hp buff to not get 2 shot so easily, 3 shot with cara would be fine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Grenades doing the same dmg as a point blank shotgun shot (perfectly shot) in a huge AoE... Lack of Focus.
I dunno. I definitely recognize the problem with Fade weakness, but I feel like if I have a fade in my crosshair, it shouldn't be an issue to take it down.
I like the idea of keeping it as an assassination unit, but it just doesn't work as much as they think it does. I really feel like they should experiment with some newer "stealth-like" abilities to make it more effective, even something like an in-combat camoflauge; especially something that might (temporarily) counter an observatory.
<!--quoteo(post=2012114:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:06 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 6 2012, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno. I definitely recognize the problem with Fade weakness, but I feel like if I have a fade in my crosshair, it shouldn't be an issue to take it down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your using a JP and a shotgun, yes... If your using a LMG? No...
A 50 res lifeform should make a LMG marine hit the sprint key and hope to god if he is on his own.
If you have a shotgun then you should be able to fight the fade off (on your own) and perhaps kill him if he gets greedy but I am honestly getting sick of feeling scared of lone shotgun marines as a fade...
In Batman: Arkham Asylum, the thugs in there all have weapons that could kill me in just a few hits. But I'm not scared of them. Because I'm BATMAN. And if I play my cards right, they'll never see me coming.
That's what I'm talking about. If it's all too easy to find Fades right now, then that could use some sort of tweak. Something that enables them to kill 3 LMG marines on his own, but ONLY; ONLY if he is using his abilities right, and without getting hit.
Right now I just don't see that as so possible. The Fade's movements are predictable, and he's pretty easy to recognize coming.
It's simple, fades no longer win games. They do ridiculous low damage to structures and get chased off by a group of rines, yes a skilled fade can do damage but if a rine has a shotgun and an armory near by I'd rather be 2 skulks. A celerity onos can cross the map faster then a sprinting rine and can cause serious damage.
The hit and run ability of an onos is greater then a fade. An onos can run into a base attack for 10 sec force a beacon and before the beacon is finished he can be out the door half way to the other rine base... Currently my favorite game is to onos and see how many beacons I can get while not being in the room when the rines get their. (So far my record is 7 I got the power out on the 8th it made me sad. :(. ).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2012086:date=Nov 5 2012, 07:46 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 5 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So fix the <strike>tech explosions</strike> Shotgun Spread, don't screw the fade into oblivion... :|<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed. :-P No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.
Instead address the improper role implementation that comes from the current shotgun, and increase the skill required to use it at it's most effective level, simply by increasing it's bullet count and width of spread in a ratio that's proportional to it's current damage. Now you dont need to lessen shotgun ammo count, ensures proper soft RPS, and as a byproduct increases fade and lerk viability without touching their skill floors or ceilings.
The fade has always been, and I think should remain to be, a hit-and-run attacker: in a sense, a beefed-up skulk. A couple of builds ago, fades were really powerful: blink was fast, they no and then less damage while blinking, and a few more builds before that, they could take both carapace and regeneration at the same time. The result was an almost unbeatable killing machine: everyone took a fade because once you went fade, if you knew what you were doing, you simply couldn't be killed. The only time you were killed was by accident or amazing coordination on the part of marines. And this was really frustrating as a marine player: once the fades came out, you might as well F4.
In this and more recent builds I actually see fades dying with relative frequency. Mostly it's because they are ganged up on by 2-3 marines, or they are greedy: they don't blink out when they should. I think people who don't like the current state of the fade aren't playing them sufficiently cautiously. I get taken out as quickly as anyone else as a fade, and it was only today that I realized that you really have to disengage and heal much quicker than you might like in order to save that 50-res investment. Once I did that (attack, retreat, attack, retreat) I got many more kills and lasted much longer.
If that's not your style, save up another 25 res and go Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2012130:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:18 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 6 2012, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now I just don't see that as so possible. The Fade's movements are predictable, and he's pretty easy to recognize coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It currently is possible, go to a pub server... watch a decent fade create total havok in a base whilst eveyone is detracted by the onos or a group of marines not paying attention, but then watch them die to making a tiny mistake and two shotgun blasts blowing them away. Problem is for me that the fade currently is weighted far too much on good/bad decisions.
Someone asked me in a game: "How do you do so good as fade."
I said: Work out where the marines are looking... then be else where. Honestly its more: Attack the most observant player first, always use other players as distactions, steal other peoples kills at every oppertunity... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2012135:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:20 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Nov 6 2012, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realized that you really have to disengage and heal much quicker than you might like in order to save that 50-res investment. Once I did that (attack, retreat, attack, retreat) I got many more kills and lasted much longer.
If that's not your style, save up another 25 res and go Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem with that though is that you end up doing nothing of any use due to armoury armour heal. Sure I suppose its ok to accept that as a fade (50 res) you are a reaper of the weak and un-upgraded... but a 20 res shotgun making you cack your pants? No dice.
<!--quoteo(post=2012146:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:26 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 6 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if Fades were played in third-person?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I got a crazy idea, and this may or may not accomplish what we hope for.
What if Fades were played in third-person?
In TF2, people tend to play Medieval Mode in 3rd person to get better FOV around you. That's also what helps a lot in stealth games you tend to play (Batman, Splinter Cell). This would also give better spacial awareness for side-to-side and vertical movements, making Fade even easier to jump around without the Skulk's climbing (I think the main reason Skulks don't complain about tripping on the environment is that they can climb over it)
<!--quoteo(post=2012133:date=Nov 6 2012, 02:19 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 6 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed. :-P No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree it would make it imbalanced for high level play. I believe the dev's have already confirmed that because the skill ceiling of fade is very high, its very hard to balance something that can be played so effectively/badly based on a players skill.
I still think removing armouries healing armour is a good step forward and would fix alot of issues aliens currently experience. If marines are forced to buy welders to heal armour, it means less pres which translates into less shotguns on the field. If this happened, you would find fades MAYBE woudn't need that hp buff
<!--quoteo(post=2012154:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:31 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 6 2012, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, I agree it would make it imbalanced for high level play. I believe the dev's have already confirmed that because the skill ceiling of fade is very high, its very hard to balance something that can be played so effectively/badly based on a players skill.
I still think removing armouries healing armour is a good step forward and would fix alot of issues aliens currently experience. If marines are forced to buy welders to heal armour, it means less pres which translates into less shotguns on the field. If this happened, you would find fades MAYBE woudn't need that hp buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see Focus brought back TO balance the fade. Currently a fade is USELESS without carapace and ALOT harder without celerity. Re-adding focus would bring something new to fade specifically at the end of the game (3 hives) thus giving the fade something extra when it needs it instead of just an overall buff for the entire time it appears in game.
<!--quoteo(post=2012105:date=Nov 6 2012, 05:00 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 6 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Firstly Vortex uses the majority of your energy, meaning that unless you managed to get upto that exo/obs (the centre of a marine base) without using ANY energy that having now used Vortex your on pretty damn low energy... Now try escape.. oh wait, you can... you dont even have enough energy to shadows step... oh... now your dead... so you spent 50 res to disable a beacon once/vortex out an exo long enough for his miniguns to cool down and he can continue firing away as-much as he likes... Useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think of the situation where the marine commander is desperate to get the marines back to his base as soon as possible because a onos is taking down the power or w/e. Preventing the marine commander from making the beacon is effective, not useless and who are you trying to escape from when there are no marines around to protect the base (Hench the reason for a beacon in the first place)
Also it comes down to the situation of using the vortex to send the exo to oblivion and back. If you get the chance to use it, it is extremely powerful but its not always un' option. Which is the simple nature of all games, but hell no... lets just re-work vortex so it can do EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME (thumbs up)
Even though vortex is not a super uber ability, it doesn't have to be. It is fine for preventing desperate beacons and in team play, to vortex a exo to oblivion and allowing your onos mate to close the gap without beeing shot to bits before he gets close to the exo (hint; Team-play)
are there aggregate k/d stats for the fade lifeform in pubs and organized play? avg'd over lots of games, what should it be? you know uwe is looking at that.
if fade is dominating in pubs & getting good value for pres, then it will be hard to get additional buffs (excl. tier3), even if they are really needed for certain situations.
<!--quoteo(post=2012184:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:55 AM:name=extollo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (extollo @ Nov 6 2012, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->are there aggregate k/d stats for the fade lifeform in pubs and organized play? avg'd over lots of games, what should it be? you know uwe is looking at that.
if fade is dominating in pubs & getting good value for pres, then it will be hard to get additional buffs (excl. tier3), even if they are really needed for certain situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter? Honestly a semi competant onos can get crazily more kills than a really good fade, be in the game sooner and is able to kill RT's and bases.
Indeed, an Onos' kill potential is a lot higher than the Fade.
I think they almost have the Fade right in NS2. NS1 Fades were a bit too strong. They had something like 250-300 armor if I remember correctly.
The Fade needs a slight armor buff to 150 armor as opposed to 100. They're just slightly tankier than a Lerk, but they need to go up close to deal all of their damage, unlike the Lerk.
I don't understand how anyone is having problems using the fade. I almost always go fade if I'm not screwing around as a lerk. I go adrenaline and regen, and if I get less than 20 kills in a life I consider myself having done below average. The only time my fade ever dies is if I make an extremely poor decision or if I get stuck on the door glitches while blinking. Tram is the worst offender of this, many dooways causing dead stops when trying to blink through.
I was just in a game where I never died once as a fade, stopped an entire team of marines from being able to move out of one side of their base while the rest of my team tore through their other command center and closed in on them at their main. And that's a pretty typical game for me.
I think anyone who uses carapace and celerity on a fade is going against the fade's strong points. You already have 2 fast mobility options and they use energy, so just get adrenaline. And you're a hit and run class so use regen and pick your fights better.
<!--quoteo(post=2012206:date=Nov 5 2012, 09:11 PM:name=Plunkies)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plunkies @ Nov 5 2012, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how anyone is having problems using the fade. I almost always go fade if I'm not screwing around as a lerk. I go adrenaline and regen, and if I get less than 20 kills in a life I consider myself having done below average. The only time my fade ever dies is if I make an extremely poor decision or if I get stuck on the door glitches while blinking. Tram is the worst offender of this, many dooways causing dead stops when trying to blink through.
I was just in a game where I never died once as a fade, stopped an entire team of marines from being able to move out of one side of their base while the rest of my team tore through their other command center and closed in on them at their main. And that's a pretty typical game for me.
I think anyone who uses carapace and celerity on a fade is going against the fade's strong points. You already have 2 fast mobility options and they use energy, so just get adrenaline. And you're a hit and run class so use regen and pick your fights better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i killed 4 marines alone as a skulk yesterday, skulks are imbalanced imo, or maybe they were bad marines, who knows.
Now let me explain to you why you're wrong.
Fade: health : 250 armor : 50 , with carapace : 100
shotguns deal normal damage; 2 points of normal damage is needed to get rid of 1 point of armor
effective health against shotguns : 350 , with carapace : 450
shotgun dmg at close range : 17 x 10 = 170 shotgun dmg at close range with weapon upgrade lvl 3 : 170+30% = 210
it takes only 2 shots of a lvl 1 shotgun and a sneeze to kill you without carapace and your model/hitbox is freaking huge so anyone who's not a complete noob will just hit you easly. If you take carapace on the other hand, you'll be able to blink in and out of fights vs average/good marines without instantly die.
I agree, i have killed fades in the past with 2 well placed shotgun blasts, and i also got killed by 2 blasts as well.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage
Comments
I agree :) I fully 100% agree
I don't see this happening though, as it means removal of alien tres (commander). This mean's fades need to be weaker, or give aliens something that 2-3 people NEED to spend res on to survive to midgame.
Keep in mind most public players have somewhere between 10-20 hours of this game and still need to learn to play. Let's not put training wheels on the entire game to satisfy new players... if I was a new player I would rather have the game be hard to master because it becomes more rewarding. I think most real gamers would agree with me. I sucked at CS when I first loaded it... but even getting a kill made me so happy. That's what drove me to get better... because I knew it was hard and it was satisfying.
I'm tired of this scourge that is COD gameplay mechanics.
Have you played in pubs recently? It's rare to see an alien victory that isn't caused by extremely poor marine play (No comm, comm spams turrets, or other factors).
Making the fade better is gonna help the game overall (And will help people start winning on aliens in pubs). I am actually just asking for 1 additional shotgun blast at the moment. Well, make that 1 additional shotgun blast + some pistol damage. That would still be unbalanced for competitive I believe, and even public play in many circumstances.
If they gave the ability to have regen and carapace and left the armor where it is it would be acceptable too. There are many ways to balance it which wouldn't just be an armor increase. Right now you take damage and have to fall back and waste precious time. Regen isn't viable at all... the fade is far too weak with only regen.... and the fade is too tedious with carapace. NS1 you could have the best of both worlds (Decent armor and regeneration). Carapace fade in NS1 was redundant, and I believe should still be the same in NS2. A carapace fade should be defensive, yet it is the only viable option for offense at the moment. An offensive fade should be able to stay in the area of attack for long periods of time. It should be able to go in and out, and not die instantly due to lack of armor / HP. Fades can't deal enough damage currently with how the fade is balanced. The fade is just... bad.
So before your 6 min onos drop what do you actually use to stop push teams?
Lerks... wait no... they dont stop push teams?
Skulks.. nope... they dont stop them...
Gorge?
Fade is our mid game alien unit, we cannot argue it has a "specific" role and "shouldnt be used" to stop hive attacks otherwise the entire Alien game-plan is "wait for a ###### onos you bellends."... Do you want that to be the entire alien game plan?
Why dont we just make it so Marines have to tech to Onos as well in order to do anything useful? For the first 10 mins of the game both teams can be totally window-licker retarded and both teams can just spend all game waiting for onos... Sounds good to me.
It's not so much that his heal is useless as you have to retreat a billion ###### miles away anyway because Marines can casually sprint after you and shotgun both of you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if I was a new player I would rather have the game be hard to master because it becomes more rewarding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool, can we make that a requirement for both sides then? The skill floor for Aliens is much higher than for Marines.
Bring Marines up or lower Aliens. Pick one.
Vortex is not useless. You can prevent TWO beacons and waste the marine commanders resources by vortexing the observatory.
It can also vortex out exo's and allow onos players to close the gap with the exo's. Sounds pretty powerful to me.
Should be killed in 3 hits but take 4 perfect hits to be able to kill a marine? 8 with nano... 12 with nano and med support?
I am glad you think that... /sarcasm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In it's current form I think it should be 45 resources, but that said, you still have to consider the Fade's role. Should a Fade be able to stand toe to toe with an Exo? If you think it should then we have a very different idea of what the Fade should be.
If you want to remove the intended purpose and role of a unit, then I could make an equally incorrect comparison between a skulk (or two or three) that costs 0 resources being extremely effective against a 50 point Exo. Essentially we have the same argument being made here by .ADHd, a group of low cost units are able to take out one higher point unit.
"X" costs "Y" and it can't compete "Z" isn't always the best way to go about balance suggestions. NS2 isn't a game about one unit being inherently better than the other. It's a game about progressing up a tech tree to open up more options.
<!--QuoteBegin-.ADHd+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regen isn't viable at all... the fade is far too weak with only regen.... and the fade is too tedious with carapace. A carapace fade should be defensive, yet it is the only viable option for offense at the moment. An offensive fade should be able to stay in the area of attack for long periods of time. It should be able to go in and out, and not die instantly due to lack of armor / HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this. Regen is not viable at all, and I feel that way about Regen with the majority of classes (I almost never play Lerk/Gorge). It sounds like you have more of a problem with Regen than Fade. I would love to see some boost to Regen, like a <i>significantly</i> faster heal if the player is on infestation, for example.
It can also vortex out exo's and allow onos players to close the gap with the exo's. Sounds pretty powerful to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly Vortex uses the majority of your energy, meaning that unless you managed to get upto that exo/obs (the centre of a marine base) without using ANY energy that having now used Vortex your on pretty damn low energy... Now try escape.. oh wait, you can... you dont even have enough energy to shadows step... oh... now your dead... so you spent 50 res to disable a beacon once/vortex out an exo long enough for his miniguns to cool down and he can continue firing away as-much as he likes... Useful.
Winning games is fun, this is why you must do well as a skulk to hold on long enough to get 2nd hive and onos' out the door and win. Its the only way coz the rest of the life forms are crap.
As an onos a gorge or two following you, NAR ###### THAT IM GOING TO HEAL AT THE HIVE ITS MUCH QUICKER. YOUR HEAL IS USELESS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... each to their own but I completely disagree.
One of the most enjoyable parts of being a fade is tip-toeing that line of life/death. You are running in, doing as much damage as you can and fleeing. Most of the time with 100 hp (4 pistol bullets or half a shotgun blast). Very exciting, especially when their is alot of pressure (scrims/matches).
Also... for 99% of people that never play scrims/matches fades are completely fine for pubs. I still maintain insane KD's in pubs, their is a skill curve to it that 99% of people will never hit. Fading is more about in game decision making, reaction and game smarts which alot of people don't know unless they faded in NS1.
Also I woudn't say that fades are useless, there are other things external to the fade that build up against them
- Cheap arms lab upgrades
- Armouries that heal armor
- They come out late due to RFD
- Inabilitiy for lerks to harass with projectile spore
- Marines pres = so much more shotguns on the field. They need a hp buff to not get 2 shot so easily, 3 shot with cara would be fine...
Edit, also armories are only ten t.res right? I would up that a bit to prevent them from being spammed at ever part of the map.
If you want to remove the intended purpose and role of a unit, then I could make an equally incorrect comparison between a skulk (or two or three) that costs 0 resources being extremely effective against a 50 point Exo. Essentially we have the same argument being made here by .ADHd, a group of low cost units are able to take out one higher point unit.
"X" costs "Y" and it can't compete "Z" isn't always the best way to go about balance suggestions. NS2 isn't a game about one unit being inherently better than the other. It's a game about progressing up a tech tree to open up more options.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said they should be the same role, Exo is a slow push/area fortification unit.
Fade is a hit and run, resource protector and chaos maker.
But the current balance of the fade is still ludicrous.
<!--quoteo(post=2012107:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm... each to their own but I completely disagree.
One of the most enjoyable parts of being a fade is tip-toeing that line of life/death. You are running in, doing as much damage as you can and fleeing. Most of the time with 100 hp (4 pistol bullets or half a shotgun blast). Very exciting, especially when their is alot of pressure (scrims/matches).
Also... for 99% of people that never play scrims/matches fades are completely fine. I still maintain insane KD's in pubs, their is a skill curve to it that 99% of people will never hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This... just.... this...
Except the last bit, I am sure we all get stupid scores as fade in pubs... until mass grenade launchers show up.
<!--quoteo(post=2012107:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM:name=male_fatalities)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (male_fatalities @ Nov 6 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I woudn't say that fades are useless, there are other things external to the fade that build up against them
- Cheap arms lab upgrades
- Armouries that heal armor
- They come out late due to RFD
- Inabilitiy for lerks to harass with projectile spore
- Marines pres = so much more shotguns on the field. They need a hp buff to not get 2 shot so easily, 3 shot with cara would be fine...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grenades doing the same dmg as a point blank shotgun shot (perfectly shot) in a huge AoE...
Lack of Focus.
I like the idea of keeping it as an assassination unit, but it just doesn't work as much as they think it does. I really feel like they should experiment with some newer "stealth-like" abilities to make it more effective, even something like an in-combat camoflauge; especially something that might (temporarily) counter an observatory.
If your using a JP and a shotgun, yes... If your using a LMG? No...
A 50 res lifeform should make a LMG marine hit the sprint key and hope to god if he is on his own.
If you have a shotgun then you should be able to fight the fade off (on your own) and perhaps kill him if he gets greedy but I am honestly getting sick of feeling scared of lone shotgun marines as a fade...
That's what I'm talking about. If it's all too easy to find Fades right now, then that could use some sort of tweak. Something that enables them to kill 3 LMG marines on his own, but ONLY; ONLY if he is using his abilities right, and without getting hit.
Right now I just don't see that as so possible. The Fade's movements are predictable, and he's pretty easy to recognize coming.
Go onto a smaller server and fades are good. Larger servers and they are a waste of rez.
The hit and run ability of an onos is greater then a fade. An onos can run into a base attack for 10 sec force a beacon and before the beacon is finished he can be out the door half way to the other rine base... Currently my favorite game is to onos and see how many beacons I can get while not being in the room when the rines get their. (So far my record is 7 I got the power out on the 8th it made me sad. :(. ).
Fixed. :-P
No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.
Instead address the improper role implementation that comes from the current shotgun, and increase the skill required to use it at it's most effective level, simply by increasing it's bullet count and width of spread in a ratio that's proportional to it's current damage. Now you dont need to lessen shotgun ammo count, ensures proper soft RPS, and as a byproduct increases fade and lerk viability without touching their skill floors or ceilings.
In this and more recent builds I actually see fades dying with relative frequency. Mostly it's because they are ganged up on by 2-3 marines, or they are greedy: they don't blink out when they should. I think people who don't like the current state of the fade aren't playing them sufficiently cautiously. I get taken out as quickly as anyone else as a fade, and it was only today that I realized that you really have to disengage and heal much quicker than you might like in order to save that 50-res investment. Once I did that (attack, retreat, attack, retreat) I got many more kills and lasted much longer.
If that's not your style, save up another 25 res and go Onos.
It currently is possible, go to a pub server... watch a decent fade create total havok in a base whilst eveyone is detracted by the onos or a group of marines not paying attention, but then watch them die to making a tiny mistake and two shotgun blasts blowing them away. Problem is for me that the fade currently is weighted far too much on good/bad decisions.
Someone asked me in a game: "How do you do so good as fade."
I said: Work out where the marines are looking... then be else where.
Honestly its more: Attack the most observant player first, always use other players as distactions, steal other peoples kills at every oppertunity... xD
<!--quoteo(post=2012135:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:20 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Nov 6 2012, 04:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realized that you really have to disengage and heal much quicker than you might like in order to save that 50-res investment. Once I did that (attack, retreat, attack, retreat) I got many more kills and lasted much longer.
If that's not your style, save up another 25 res and go Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem with that though is that you end up doing nothing of any use due to armoury armour heal.
Sure I suppose its ok to accept that as a fade (50 res) you are a reaper of the weak and un-upgraded... but a 20 res shotgun making you cack your pants? No dice.
<!--quoteo(post=2012146:date=Nov 6 2012, 04:26 AM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 6 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2012146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if Fades were played in third-person?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arg god no...
Would be horrible.
What if Fades were played in third-person?
In TF2, people tend to play Medieval Mode in 3rd person to get better FOV around you. That's also what helps a lot in stealth games you tend to play (Batman, Splinter Cell). This would also give better spacial awareness for side-to-side and vertical movements, making Fade even easier to jump around without the Skulk's climbing (I think the main reason Skulks don't complain about tripping on the environment is that they can climb over it)
No but really.. as much as i want to agree with male_fatalities' suggestion of +50 armor, and as much good as it would do for making it slightly more accessible, it would make the higher levels of play imbalanced imo. Good fades are already scary good, and a single one can turn the tides on a 12 person team sometimes.. would hate to see that get worse in order to make it more accessible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I agree it would make it imbalanced for high level play. I believe the dev's have already confirmed that because the skill ceiling of fade is very high, its very hard to balance something that can be played so effectively/badly based on a players skill.
I still think removing armouries healing armour is a good step forward and would fix alot of issues aliens currently experience. If marines are forced to buy welders to heal armour, it means less pres which translates into less shotguns on the field. If this happened, you would find fades MAYBE woudn't need that hp buff
I still think removing armouries healing armour is a good step forward and would fix alot of issues aliens currently experience. If marines are forced to buy welders to heal armour, it means less pres which translates into less shotguns on the field. If this happened, you would find fades MAYBE woudn't need that hp buff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see Focus brought back TO balance the fade.
Currently a fade is USELESS without carapace and ALOT harder without celerity.
Re-adding focus would bring something new to fade specifically at the end of the game (3 hives) thus giving the fade something extra when it needs it instead of just an overall buff for the entire time it appears in game.
Think of the situation where the marine commander is desperate to get the marines back to his base as soon as possible because a onos is taking down the power or w/e.
Preventing the marine commander from making the beacon is effective, not useless and who are you trying to escape from when there are no marines around to protect the base (Hench the reason for a beacon in the first place)
Also it comes down to the situation of using the vortex to send the exo to oblivion and back. If you get the chance to use it, it is extremely powerful but its not always un' option.
Which is the simple nature of all games, but hell no... lets just re-work vortex so it can do EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME (thumbs up)
Even though vortex is not a super uber ability, it doesn't have to be. It is fine for preventing desperate beacons and in team play, to vortex a exo to oblivion and allowing your onos mate to close the gap without beeing shot to bits before he gets close to the exo (hint; Team-play)
Any damage you do with a fade is easily negated due to armory repairing armor and the frequency of marine spawns.
if fade is dominating in pubs & getting good value for pres, then it will be hard to get additional buffs (excl. tier3), even if they are really needed for certain situations.
if fade is dominating in pubs & getting good value for pres, then it will be hard to get additional buffs (excl. tier3), even if they are really needed for certain situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it matter?
Honestly a semi competant onos can get crazily more kills than a really good fade, be in the game sooner and is able to kill RT's and bases.
I think they almost have the Fade right in NS2. NS1 Fades were a bit too strong. They had something like 250-300 armor if I remember correctly.
The Fade needs a slight armor buff to 150 armor as opposed to 100. They're just slightly tankier than a Lerk, but they need to go up close to deal all of their damage, unlike the Lerk.
I was just in a game where I never died once as a fade, stopped an entire team of marines from being able to move out of one side of their base while the rest of my team tore through their other command center and closed in on them at their main. And that's a pretty typical game for me.
I think anyone who uses carapace and celerity on a fade is going against the fade's strong points. You already have 2 fast mobility options and they use energy, so just get adrenaline. And you're a hit and run class so use regen and pick your fights better.
I was just in a game where I never died once as a fade, stopped an entire team of marines from being able to move out of one side of their base while the rest of my team tore through their other command center and closed in on them at their main. And that's a pretty typical game for me.
I think anyone who uses carapace and celerity on a fade is going against the fade's strong points. You already have 2 fast mobility options and they use energy, so just get adrenaline. And you're a hit and run class so use regen and pick your fights better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i killed 4 marines alone as a skulk yesterday, skulks are imbalanced imo, or maybe they were bad marines, who knows.
Now let me explain to you why you're wrong.
Fade: health : 250
armor : 50 , with carapace : 100
shotguns deal normal damage; 2 points of normal damage is needed to get rid of 1 point of armor
effective health against shotguns : 350 , with carapace : 450
shotgun dmg at close range : 17 x 10 = 170
shotgun dmg at close range with weapon upgrade lvl 3 : 170+30% = 210
it takes only 2 shots of a lvl 1 shotgun and a sneeze to kill you without carapace and your model/hitbox is freaking huge so anyone who's not a complete noob will just hit you easly. If you take carapace on the other hand, you'll be able to blink in and out of fights vs average/good marines without instantly die.
But to me the problem is not the fade, its mostly the OP shotgun level 3, its ridiculous, i remember one time i was fade, i had 90hp remaining and got 1 shotted by a shotty from 100+feet or something, it has no spread or drop off damage