<!--quoteo(post=2011348:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello, players who haven't commanded or aren't commanding at the moment!
Let us assign blame...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My god sir, it's as if you're in my head! As a matter of fact, I was alien commander on a game last night where damn near every one of these things happened. We had literally the entire map, with giant forward healing bases at both the entrances to their base. I dropped Onos and gorge eggs galore in every hive and at my forward shift bases. It took us <i>45 minutes</i> to win after they were down to just their spawn. They even killed both the forward bases I built a grand total of <i>13 times</i> when there were four Onos <i>right around the corner</i> instead of fighting in the middle of a field that was literally healing them faster than they could take damage. Well, it would have if they actually <i>stood in the healing mist</i>. It's not because they didn't know either, I was telling them about how it worked and typing it just in case they were deaf as well as dumb.
You want to know why alien commanders drop tons of Onos? It's because their team refuses to work as a group. After all that B.S. the team finally listened to me and gathered up together in a hive, still not the full team mind you just three or four less-retarded players, and rushed <i>together</i> into the marine base and destroyed the power node. We literally won the game with fifteen seconds of team work whereas the game went on for <i>hours</i> without it.
This is the microcosm of the pub game for aliens. Honestly? I just felt bad for the marines. It was just frustrating for everyone involved.
The most frustrating thing? Being blamed for your teams inability to not die with a life form that has something like three times the HP/Armor of anything else in the game, that also does the most damage in the game.
Oh, and in case you were wondering? Yes, there were a ton of gorge eggs that were untouched during the final assault. Go figure.
I dunno man. Ive had games im telling ppl about stuff over typing. And they just derp around. Then there like set way points. Even tho you say have a nice split at start and dont go alone. Like i feel these ppl still ask there mom's how to wipe there butts........ fps gaming isnt new.
<!--quoteo(post=2011546:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:17 PM:name=JuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi @ Nov 5 2012, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno man. Ive had games im telling ppl about stuff over typing. And they just derp around. Then there like set way points. Even tho you say have a nice split at start and dont go alone. Like i feel these ppl still ask there mom's how to wipe there butts........ fps gaming isnt new.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2011348:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 5 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the commander has all the upgrades and most of the res nodes and you still manage to lose it... it is not the commander's fault you lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a player who does command. I used to primarily command in NS1. This is generally true, but not universally true. There are still things a commander can do to ###### up a teams chances at this point in the game... Actually, the difficultly ramps up for the commander at this point, he needs to be even more on his game.
If the commander, at that point decides "my marines don't need meds anymore" Or "I wonder what 20 whips would look like in reactor core" then it CAN be their fault that the game is lost.
In the late game map control becomes more important than ever. The comm needs to be more aware than usual about what the enemy team is up to, and the comm needs to be more proactive about investing in offensive augments for his team. The comm ALSO needs to discourage his team from investing in lost causes pushes where they sacrifice 200 res worth of stuff at zero expense to the opposing team. At the end of the day, the comm has the birds eye view, in the late game his contributions are potentially the most valuable or the most sorely missed for the team.
It also doesn't help that late game NS2 is effectively an absurd stale mate right now if aliens have the majority of the map. At a certain point aliens need to pin marines back to fewer than 3 res nozzles in order to actually end the game within the next 20 minutes. This is simply because certain exo-shotgun-welder-grenadelauncher combinations are so cost effective on defense it's mind bending.
<!--quoteo(post=2011348:date=Nov 5 2012, 05:48 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 5 2012, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he resources that you secure.. SECURE mind you...not leave to be taken out over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't so much the case with aliens. A quick res expansion leads to delayed upgrades and a quick expansion where res towers die, leads to even more delayed upgrades. Just because RT's make <i>their money back</i> before they die does not mean dropping them and having them die doesn't matter. They may have not "lost any resources" but you lost time, time in which you could have had second hives, leap and upgrades...
Each res node for an alien commander costs 10 res + cyst res to get there. It has to live long enough to make back that 14-20 res and then EXTRA profit on top in order to further an alien economy until the time that it does, it is effectively just slowing down your upgrades research.
I really dislike comming aliens over marines. I honestly don't like talking much on the internet or in games.
As marine commander you just box 3 people and tell them to take repair, and everyone gets what you want them to do.
Why in the hell do I have to say "Hey LeetZPwnr, Maracuis23 and StuffICan'tPronounce would you please so kind to go and defend repair?" when comming as alien? This is complete ****** when I'm forced to give the absolutely same command via voice. This isn't excusable with "Oh but aliens are so different". It's the same command.
Just giving the basic "threat" or "expand" command won't do it. That's like "hey someone go there". No one thinks I mean him if I give unspecified commands.
<!--quoteo(post=2011520:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:49 PM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Nov 5 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a big fan of rts games, and experienced(maybe) marine comm as i've commanded since 2003 on ns1, according to my experience, the best way to command on pub server is just to be aggresive. Not whining, but just aggresive. For example, if a player is whining and not following, then just yell to him(of course not the crazy yell that would make everyone throw their headsets.) and put some good words like "f**king do this" or "you *** hear me and follow what i told to do" instead of some humble and disappointed "ahhhh please do this, i swear" "please hear me please" or something.. Just my experience. I haven't had luckily any of argument cos of my good attached words, but even better mood as other good players have agreed with me. But as long as i've not yet played ns2 since 1.0 with thousands of new players, dunno if it would still work. Worst case must be if a player cannot speak english.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe it's the "new" thing, but people tend to listen pretty well in the pub games i've been playing. Making the game more tolerable even when losing. At least you know people are trying.
Not sure if it's all about the tone, but aggressive tactics tend to work and be better supported by the troops.
If you got 8... 1 stay and build, 3 man res/expand team, 3 man team that rushes the most likely hive location and eventually finds the hive.
That's a lost art, I don't see enough people on the MARINE side rushing the hive. That keeps the skulls BACK in the hive. Get an early gorge kill. Stop their expansion. I'm not saying you are going to kill the hive, but you give your com and the rest of the team time to build/expand.
<!--quoteo(post=2011584:date=Nov 5 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Madrawn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Madrawn @ Nov 5 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really dislike comming aliens over marines. I honestly don't like talking much on the internet or in games.
As marine commander you just box 3 people and tell them to take repair, and everyone gets what you want them to do.
Why in the hell do I have to say "Hey LeetZPwnr, Maracuis23 and StuffICan'tPronounce would you please so kind to go and defend repair?" when comming as alien? This is complete ****** when I'm forced to give the absolutely same command via voice. This isn't excusable with "Oh but aliens are so different". It's the same command.
Just giving the basic "threat" or "expand" command won't do it. That's like "hey someone go there". No one thinks I mean him if I give unspecified commands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Choosing aliens to give orders was considered but it was determined that it's too difficult to select them given how much they move around, and the alien comm is meant to have a more hands-off style. Honestly I'm surprised you have any success commanding with waypoints alone on the marine side. Commanding in NS really is about interpersonal communication, it's a hugely important part of the job.
<!--quoteo(post=2011609:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:10 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 5 2012, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Choosing aliens to give orders was considered but it was determined that it's too difficult to select them given how much they move around, and the alien comm is meant to have a more hands-off style. Honestly I'm surprised you have any success commanding with waypoints alone on the marine side. Commanding in NS really is about interpersonal communication, it's a hugely important part of the job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really really really really dislike this argument. Everyone knows in NS, whether marines or aliens, it's beneficial to have a microphone... however, I think it should be plausible to not do a horrific job of comming without a microphone.
We all know deaf and mute people will have a hard time with NS, do we really have to intentionally cripple them further?
<!--quoteo(post=2011645:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:40 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 5 2012, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really really really really dislike this argument. Everyone knows in NS, whether marines or aliens, it's beneficial to have a microphone... however, I think it should be plausible to not do a horrific job of comming without a microphone.
We all know deaf and mute people will have a hard time with NS, do we really have to intentionally cripple them further?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that the waypointing system should be intentionally held back - it's just not feasible to micromanage individual aliens in that way. The system should be built to help the comm communicate without being over-engineered. An alien comm could do a perfectly competent job without talking to his team, but it's never going to be a great idea.
<!--quoteo(post=2011614:date=Nov 5 2012, 04:16 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 5 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can have every upgrade and still lose because of a bad decision made by the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For realz? As an alien, beyond creating forward bases for healing and such, dropping eggs, etc, what can you "do wrong"?
In those situations as a marine I'd send in the ARCs while my team piddles around... as an alien... what are we to do?
My scenario we had all but one or two res nodes (it alternated). Half my team had 100+ res each and wouldn't evolve a higher life form...
I've NEVER had a decent team... even a mediocre one, with THAT many resources and all tech able to lose even if the comm goes and takes a nap... which the comm wasn't doing.
But if simply saying "nuh-uh" is your intellectual point then I say, "Well played, Sir. Well Played."
it happens. and it would never stop. for 10 years already.
the unique solution would be go to better servers. if they still eject you, just accept the fact that you suck. but then, i do know comms where they play completely fine in good servers, go to a noob server get flamed and rage ejected.
<!--quoteo(post=2011348:date=Nov 5 2012, 01:48 PM:name=CodeCowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CodeCowboy @ Nov 5 2012, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2011348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello, players who haven't commanded or aren't commanding at the moment!
Let us assign blame... because that's what most people like to do. But lets use a blame standard that is consistent.
If the commander has all the upgrades and most of the res nodes and you still manage to lose it... it is not the commander's fault you lost.
If the commander is telling you when and where the enemy are attacking... he is not whining. He is giving you vital information you will need.
If the commander tells you "there are three of you go through the door and kill the guy who is shooting at the hive from the other room and you wait on the inside of the door "for a good ambush" it is not the commander's fault when the hive dies and you ultimately lose. No, you don't have the right to tell the comm, "All your whining about attacking doesn't help."
On the other hand...
If your commander isn't expanding to get resources... isn't building upgrades... isn't getting you the tools you need to combat the enemy... THEN you can claim the commander sucks.
The commander's job is to capture the resources that you secure.. SECURE mind you...not leave to be taken out over and over.
If you cannot hold a front line the commander cannot do his job. If you cannot kill the enemy, that is not the commander's fault (unless you have no upgrades).
If you complain about not having carapace after you let the carapace hive get killed and wiped clean... you're just a moron.
If your commander doesn't support his marines with phase tech and forward bases and you therefore cannot sustain a push, then you can blame the commander.
If you expect the commander to spend team resources so you can waste onos eggs on solo suicide runs into rooms full of marines, you're just a tool. If you think the commander exists to med spam you while you're right next to an armory, you are similarly equipped as a looney.
This service announcement has been brought to you by the Council of You're a New Player, Stop Blaming Your Comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Issue 1 is the US vs Them mentality.
Its not Commander vs Marines vs Aliens its Marine vs Aliens
I had nothing but mostly positive experiences as commander up until today. I assume the players behind aliens are getting more experienced or perhaps I was just on a bad server team at the time.
I was being pestered the entire time for ammunition, for health, for this and that. All the while they're being killed and can't handle a few skulks even as a team. One of the more prominent chuckle heads had a score of 4-30 by mid-game point.
They proceeded to rag on me on the other team, despite their own inadequacies as a player.
When I'm not commanding, I utilize the map to see where I need to be and make suggestions. I never harp the commander for health or ammunition, because there's probably an armory nearby or I'm by myself meaning I need to get back to my group.
The commander can guide the players, but the player needs to utilization the capability to be self-aware. This tool alone lets the commander focus on scanning, management and so forth. I've run into a lot more poor Marine commanders than Alien commanders lately. I think perhaps the more experienced players gravitate towards the Aliens, but that's just personal conjecture on my part.
Comments
Let us assign blame...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My god sir, it's as if you're in my head! As a matter of fact, I was alien commander on a game last night where damn near every one of these things happened. We had literally the entire map, with giant forward healing bases at both the entrances to their base. I dropped Onos and gorge eggs galore in every hive and at my forward shift bases. It took us <i>45 minutes</i> to win after they were down to just their spawn. They even killed both the forward bases I built a grand total of <i>13 times</i> when there were four Onos <i>right around the corner</i> instead of fighting in the middle of a field that was literally healing them faster than they could take damage. Well, it would have if they actually <i>stood in the healing mist</i>. It's not because they didn't know either, I was telling them about how it worked and typing it just in case they were deaf as well as dumb.
You want to know why alien commanders drop tons of Onos? It's because their team refuses to work as a group. After all that B.S. the team finally listened to me and gathered up together in a hive, still not the full team mind you just three or four less-retarded players, and rushed <i>together</i> into the marine base and destroyed the power node. We literally won the game with fifteen seconds of team work whereas the game went on for <i>hours</i> without it.
This is the microcosm of the pub game for aliens. Honestly? I just felt bad for the marines. It was just frustrating for everyone involved.
The most frustrating thing? Being blamed for your teams inability to not die with a life form that has something like three times the HP/Armor of anything else in the game, that also does the most damage in the game.
Oh, and in case you were wondering? Yes, there were a ton of gorge eggs that were untouched during the final assault. Go figure.
you're completely stoned aren't you.
I'm a player who does command. I used to primarily command in NS1. This is generally true, but not universally true. There are still things a commander can do to ###### up a teams chances at this point in the game... Actually, the difficultly ramps up for the commander at this point, he needs to be even more on his game.
If the commander, at that point decides "my marines don't need meds anymore" Or "I wonder what 20 whips would look like in reactor core" then it CAN be their fault that the game is lost.
In the late game map control becomes more important than ever. The comm needs to be more aware than usual about what the enemy team is up to, and the comm needs to be more proactive about investing in offensive augments for his team. The comm ALSO needs to discourage his team from investing in lost causes pushes where they sacrifice 200 res worth of stuff at zero expense to the opposing team. At the end of the day, the comm has the birds eye view, in the late game his contributions are potentially the most valuable or the most sorely missed for the team.
It also doesn't help that late game NS2 is effectively an absurd stale mate right now if aliens have the majority of the map. At a certain point aliens need to pin marines back to fewer than 3 res nozzles in order to actually end the game within the next 20 minutes. This is simply because certain exo-shotgun-welder-grenadelauncher combinations are so cost effective on defense it's mind bending.
I find it really annoying to have to say each persons name or "you two guys in server room", instead of alpha/beta/charlie/etc...
This isn't so much the case with aliens.
A quick res expansion leads to delayed upgrades and a quick expansion where res towers die, leads to even more delayed upgrades.
Just because RT's make <i>their money back</i> before they die does not mean dropping them and having them die doesn't matter.
They may have not "lost any resources" but you lost time, time in which you could have had second hives, leap and upgrades...
Each res node for an alien commander costs 10 res + cyst res to get there. It has to live long enough to make back that 14-20 res and then EXTRA profit on top in order to further an alien economy until the time that it does, it is effectively just slowing down your upgrades research.
As marine commander you just box 3 people and tell them to take repair, and everyone gets what you want them to do.
Why in the hell do I have to say "Hey LeetZPwnr, Maracuis23 and StuffICan'tPronounce would you please so kind to go and defend repair?" when comming as alien? This is complete ****** when I'm forced to give the absolutely same command via voice. This isn't excusable with "Oh but aliens are so different". It's the same command.
Just giving the basic "threat" or "expand" command won't do it. That's like "hey someone go there". No one thinks I mean him if I give unspecified commands.
Maybe it's the "new" thing, but people tend to listen pretty well in the pub games i've been playing. Making the game more tolerable even when losing. At least you know people are trying.
Not sure if it's all about the tone, but aggressive tactics tend to work and be better supported by the troops.
If you got 8... 1 stay and build, 3 man res/expand team, 3 man team that rushes the most likely hive location and eventually finds the hive.
That's a lost art, I don't see enough people on the MARINE side rushing the hive. That keeps the skulls BACK in the hive. Get an early gorge kill. Stop their expansion. I'm not saying you are going to kill the hive, but you give your com and the rest of the team time to build/expand.
As marine commander you just box 3 people and tell them to take repair, and everyone gets what you want them to do.
Why in the hell do I have to say "Hey LeetZPwnr, Maracuis23 and StuffICan'tPronounce would you please so kind to go and defend repair?" when comming as alien? This is complete ****** when I'm forced to give the absolutely same command via voice. This isn't excusable with "Oh but aliens are so different". It's the same command.
Just giving the basic "threat" or "expand" command won't do it. That's like "hey someone go there". No one thinks I mean him if I give unspecified commands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Choosing aliens to give orders was considered but it was determined that it's too difficult to select them given how much they move around, and the alien comm is meant to have a more hands-off style. Honestly I'm surprised you have any success commanding with waypoints alone on the marine side. Commanding in NS really is about interpersonal communication, it's a hugely important part of the job.
I really really really really dislike this argument. Everyone knows in NS, whether marines or aliens, it's beneficial to have a microphone... however, I think it should be plausible to not do a horrific job of comming without a microphone.
We all know deaf and mute people will have a hard time with NS, do we really have to intentionally cripple them further?
We all know deaf and mute people will have a hard time with NS, do we really have to intentionally cripple them further?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that the waypointing system should be intentionally held back - it's just not feasible to micromanage individual aliens in that way. The system should be built to help the comm communicate without being over-engineered. An alien comm could do a perfectly competent job without talking to his team, but it's never going to be a great idea.
For realz? As an alien, beyond creating forward bases for healing and such, dropping eggs, etc, what can you "do wrong"?
In those situations as a marine I'd send in the ARCs while my team piddles around... as an alien... what are we to do?
My scenario we had all but one or two res nodes (it alternated). Half my team had 100+ res each and wouldn't evolve a higher life form...
I've NEVER had a decent team... even a mediocre one, with THAT many resources and all tech able to lose even if the comm goes and takes a nap... which the comm wasn't doing.
But if simply saying "nuh-uh" is your intellectual point then I say, "Well played, Sir. Well Played."
the unique solution would be go to better servers. if they still eject you, just accept the fact that you suck. but then, i do know comms where they play completely fine in good servers, go to a noob server get flamed and rage ejected.
quality does matter.
Let us assign blame... because that's what most people like to do. But lets use a blame standard that is consistent.
If the commander has all the upgrades and most of the res nodes and you still manage to lose it... it is not the commander's fault you lost.
If the commander is telling you when and where the enemy are attacking... he is not whining. He is giving you vital information you will need.
If the commander tells you "there are three of you go through the door and kill the guy who is shooting at the hive from the other room and you wait on the inside of the door "for a good ambush" it is not the commander's fault when the hive dies and you ultimately lose. No, you don't have the right to tell the comm, "All your whining about attacking doesn't help."
On the other hand...
If your commander isn't expanding to get resources... isn't building upgrades... isn't getting you the tools you need to combat the enemy... THEN you can claim the commander sucks.
The commander's job is to capture the resources that you secure.. SECURE mind you...not leave to be taken out over and over.
If you cannot hold a front line the commander cannot do his job. If you cannot kill the enemy, that is not the commander's fault (unless you have no upgrades).
If you complain about not having carapace after you let the carapace hive get killed and wiped clean... you're just a moron.
If your commander doesn't support his marines with phase tech and forward bases and you therefore cannot sustain a push, then you can blame the commander.
If you expect the commander to spend team resources so you can waste onos eggs on solo suicide runs into rooms full of marines, you're just a tool. If you think the commander exists to med spam you while you're right next to an armory, you are similarly equipped as a looney.
This service announcement has been brought to you by the Council of You're a New Player, Stop Blaming Your Comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Issue 1 is the US vs Them mentality.
Its not Commander vs Marines vs Aliens
its Marine vs Aliens
I was being pestered the entire time for ammunition, for health, for this and that. All the while they're being killed and can't handle a few skulks even as a team. One of the more prominent chuckle heads had a score of 4-30 by mid-game point.
They proceeded to rag on me on the other team, despite their own inadequacies as a player.
When I'm not commanding, I utilize the map to see where I need to be and make suggestions. I never harp the commander for health or ammunition, because there's probably an armory nearby or I'm by myself meaning I need to get back to my group.
The commander can guide the players, but the player needs to utilization the capability to be self-aware. This tool alone lets the commander focus on scanning, management and so forth. I've run into a lot more poor Marine commanders than Alien commanders lately. I think perhaps the more experienced players gravitate towards the Aliens, but that's just personal conjecture on my part.