Something else for marine tech-points
Blindga
Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162931Members
Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">"we're in the middle of a war! Why are we building chairs?</div>I have a problem with marines being able to build additional command posts. The only thing they seem to do is give you dual exosuits. It just seems silly to have a bunch of command posts lying around doing nothing. They take a good chunk of resource to make, and do nothing other than block alien hives.
Often times, I see marines build multiple command posts, and then lose the game because they didn't have any infantry portals on them. Their easy to forget about. I've even played a couple of games where the com just didn't build any at all, and we still won all the same.
But when I do see Marines successfully recover a game by shifting to another command post after losing their first one, I find it really annoying to have to continue chasing marines around to try and hunt them down. When a hive dies, the aliens can adjust and counter pretty easily, but I don't think Marines should have the same benefit.
It just seems a little strange to be building chairs that never really get used other than as a last line of defense.
I think that you shouldn't be able to construct command points. Whereas the aliens have several hearts, the marines should have but one human heart. It should be a single hardened structure, not easily destroyed, but absolutely vital. Of course, the marine command would need a defense buff to counter this, but anything would be better than building a bunch of chairs.
As an idea of something that could be done instead, The marine commander would be able to build a super structures on command points. It would cost as much as a regular tech point would (maybe a bit more), and would instead offer unique powerful perks or defensive options; making tech points for marines important and valuable as hives are for aliens.
Again, this is just one of many possible ideas that could work.
<b>War Factory</b> A massive tower structure, constantly churning and operating. The war factory's sheer size allows it to produce upgrades other machines can't work out on their own; producing the biggest and most powerful marine upgrades their are. The factory has several branching upgrade trees tied to it. Things like powerful weapons, weapon perks, armor perks, exosuit perks, new nanotechnology, structure improvements, and countless other things could be researched here. Once a war factory is destroyed though, all upgrades tied to it are lost and have to be redone. This would give the commander a lot more to work with, and more research to do instead of buying exos for his entire team out of boredom.
And another.
<b>Bunker</b> This super weapon is an automatic all-in-one defense system capable of demolishing any ordinary alien or alien structre instantly, and defend any area on its own like a sentry. The bunker has two tank-like cannons that fire explosive shells on targets at a high rate of fire, utterly destroying them. The bunker can be upgraded to have more health, better guns, supporting secondary guns, shields, beneficial effects; things along those lines. The big weakness of these things is that the long barrels move slowly, and can't hit up close; meaning a quick alien can still blindside and attack these things pretty easily. They still need defending if they are targeted because of that. They don't have nearly as much health as tech points until they are upgraded either, so they can die very quickly if left untouched. Upgrades only pertain to that bunker, not others, and they have to be researched again if lost. The main perk to these things would be making fighting in areas with marine tech-points challenging endeavors for aliens as the big guns would be firing on anything it could land aim on. Again, it would give the com more to do, and would give him more defense options when things go badly.
Something along those lines.
Again, just a few ideas. The main point i'm making is I think building command points is a pointless and annoying strategy other than for dual gun exos and running away when your losing. I think it should be something else like the ideas I mentioned would be better.
Let me know what you think.
Often times, I see marines build multiple command posts, and then lose the game because they didn't have any infantry portals on them. Their easy to forget about. I've even played a couple of games where the com just didn't build any at all, and we still won all the same.
But when I do see Marines successfully recover a game by shifting to another command post after losing their first one, I find it really annoying to have to continue chasing marines around to try and hunt them down. When a hive dies, the aliens can adjust and counter pretty easily, but I don't think Marines should have the same benefit.
It just seems a little strange to be building chairs that never really get used other than as a last line of defense.
I think that you shouldn't be able to construct command points. Whereas the aliens have several hearts, the marines should have but one human heart. It should be a single hardened structure, not easily destroyed, but absolutely vital. Of course, the marine command would need a defense buff to counter this, but anything would be better than building a bunch of chairs.
As an idea of something that could be done instead, The marine commander would be able to build a super structures on command points. It would cost as much as a regular tech point would (maybe a bit more), and would instead offer unique powerful perks or defensive options; making tech points for marines important and valuable as hives are for aliens.
Again, this is just one of many possible ideas that could work.
<b>War Factory</b> A massive tower structure, constantly churning and operating. The war factory's sheer size allows it to produce upgrades other machines can't work out on their own; producing the biggest and most powerful marine upgrades their are. The factory has several branching upgrade trees tied to it. Things like powerful weapons, weapon perks, armor perks, exosuit perks, new nanotechnology, structure improvements, and countless other things could be researched here. Once a war factory is destroyed though, all upgrades tied to it are lost and have to be redone. This would give the commander a lot more to work with, and more research to do instead of buying exos for his entire team out of boredom.
And another.
<b>Bunker</b> This super weapon is an automatic all-in-one defense system capable of demolishing any ordinary alien or alien structre instantly, and defend any area on its own like a sentry. The bunker has two tank-like cannons that fire explosive shells on targets at a high rate of fire, utterly destroying them. The bunker can be upgraded to have more health, better guns, supporting secondary guns, shields, beneficial effects; things along those lines. The big weakness of these things is that the long barrels move slowly, and can't hit up close; meaning a quick alien can still blindside and attack these things pretty easily. They still need defending if they are targeted because of that. They don't have nearly as much health as tech points until they are upgraded either, so they can die very quickly if left untouched. Upgrades only pertain to that bunker, not others, and they have to be researched again if lost. The main perk to these things would be making fighting in areas with marine tech-points challenging endeavors for aliens as the big guns would be firing on anything it could land aim on. Again, it would give the com more to do, and would give him more defense options when things go badly.
Something along those lines.
Again, just a few ideas. The main point i'm making is I think building command points is a pointless and annoying strategy other than for dual gun exos and running away when your losing. I think it should be something else like the ideas I mentioned would be better.
Let me know what you think.
Comments
Eh, that's a little extreme. Armories are too vital to marine play to not have available whenever.
Why?
Armories give ammo, health, armor, and weapons.
The commander can drop all of those 'in the field' if he needs to. The only reason they're vital is because people are abusing the crap out of them, by parking an armory and hurling endless grenades from it.
The alien cheese tactic is the 5-minute-onos, the marine one is defensive armory humping. People aren't really happy with either (especially the armor repair features of the armory).
Gameplay purposes (which is kinda explained above). Those backup chairs are indeed needed for when you lose an outpost or your main base so you can continue to fight. Not much of a fight but still better then being left on the battlefield without someone being able to go commander...
Gameplay purposes (which is kinda explained above). Those backup chairs are indeed needed for when you lose an outpost or your main base so you can continue to fight. Not much of a fight but still better then being left on the battlefield without someone being able to go commander...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed one of my points in this thread.
I don't think the marines should be able to do that. That should be an alien exclusive tactic. If a human commander fails and loses his post, it should be game over for them. Marines have more damage output than aliens, and can kill hives more easily, command posts are tougher and do the exact same thing. I don't think the Marines should have the option to try and recover a game when they're already hard enough to beat as is.
As it is right now, the Marines excel in anything the aliens can do except stealth. While a marine team can still lose to a good alien team (quite easily), I think their should be at least <i>something</i> the marines can't do other than hiding.
Armories give ammo, health, armor, and weapons.
The commander can drop all of those 'in the field' if he needs to. The only reason they're vital is because people are abusing the crap out of them, by parking an armory and hurling endless grenades from it.
The alien cheese tactic is the 5-minute-onos, the marine one is defensive armory humping. People aren't really happy with either (especially the armor repair features of the armory).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a problem, but I think that solution is too extreme still. Armories just need to be toned down in effectiveness.
Personally, I think you should have to buy health/ammo/armor, which would take time in a menu and resources to counter their usefulness. That would end long term turtling too because aliens could just choke marines until they can't afford to fight anymore.
But that's probably another topic. I don't think armories should go on tech points. An armory is definitely not worth 40 com-res.
The powernode is an easy target to disable the base and then work on the command station with a good coordinated attack, making quick work of a marine base. It's just that the alien team is so different from what the new people are used to and also harder to adapt to. Add to this the fact that all the new players don't really work together and are just learning stuff or finding things out for themselves, its all way to random/uncoordinated and as usual chaotic public play.
It is an interesting idea though, but I don't think one team should rely on just one structure on the map to win or lose the match... Way to susceptible to base-rushing that way
I fail to see how this is a band-aid solution... changing a gameplay concept doesn't necessarily make it lazy or weak. I put a lot of thought into this :(
I do agree that it would make base charges a bit more dangerous, I would have to suggest a raise in commander post's durability to counter that.
But again, my main point stands that additional com posts are primarily used as hive corks and dual exo unlocks. If you have to run to another command post because you lost your first, chances are the game is over for you anyways so I fail to see how it serves the purpose you described. It's just annoying when they try.
On the other hand, Marines only need a second node for just two upgrades. Marine main bases are notoriously hard to crack because they're effective turtlers. Whereas aliens need to have three structures, and a third of their upgrades are dependent on each one, and losing each one is a big blow.
*shrug*
It makes sense to me, but personally I'd rather see marines forced to expand to three tech nodes instead to <i>reduce</i> their turtleability.
I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that. But there is a much bigger underlying problem at hand with the balancing of aliens vs marine combat. I do like the War Factory idea opening up more assault tech. But there will still be the issue of not being able to command after the initial command station is destroyed. However let's brainstorm a bit here. Maybe these structures could be tied to the command station like the Starcraft 2 command center. Once the CS goes down those structures become disabled or perhaps less effective.
I am not a real fan of the super bunker. NS2 has always been about PvP mostly and that bunker would introduce the problems Nuclear Dawn is suffering from. Mid/End game you're fighting turrets.
@Temphage, it was already a long trip to get the devs into two techpoints dependency for tech :P I'd love to see actual map control have more influence besides capped resnodes on the marines in any case. And the powergrid needs an overhaul, Company of Heroes Style -> Cysts vs Powergrid. Where cutting off cyst chains/power lines to Hives or CommandStations actually has somekind of influence on the tech or maybe production/research speeds?
Speaking of Company of Heroes, maybe the commander and hive mind can take a techroute opening up other options. Basically if you go assault your defenses are less effective. If you go defensive, your offensive capabilities suffer a bit. I mean the RTS bit of NS2 is interesting but also lacking so much :(
Allright, lets. Just for fun.
Maybe instead of completely cutting off the option to build command posts, lets say the com has the option to put either a war factory for offense, or a command for security. The com can forfeit extra command posts for factories, but that's taking a risk. You can go for two or however many command posts you want, but you forfeit firepower and bonuses. What about something like that?
Armories give ammo, health, armor, and weapons.
The commander can drop all of those 'in the field' if he needs to. The only reason they're vital is because people are abusing the crap out of them, by parking an armory and hurling endless grenades from it.
The alien cheese tactic is the 5-minute-onos, the marine one is defensive armory humping. People aren't really happy with either (especially the armor repair features of the armory).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because crags cant be placed in forward positions or anything. They totally don't give health at all. No way.
I don't think the marines should be able to do that. That should be an alien exclusive tactic. <b>If a human commander fails and loses his post, it should be game over for them. Marines have more damage output than aliens, and can kill hives more easily, command posts are tougher and do the exact same thing.</b> I don't think the Marines should have the option to try and recover a game when they're already hard enough to beat as is.
As it is right now, the Marines excel in anything the aliens can do except stealth. While a marine team can still lose to a good alien team (quite easily), I think their should be at least <i>something</i> the marines can't do other than hiding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two things wrong here.
Why should you automatically lose a game because your commander lost ONE base? That would make the absurd Onos rush even stronger and would punish an entire team for have a mediocre commander. Aliens can spam hives quickly so why should Marine players have to kill three hives to win the game while Kharaa players just bum rush ONE base for the win?
First, Marines don't have higher damage output until mid to late game and by this point Kharaa have already evolved to Fade or Onos, which have some of the highest damage in the game.
Second, command posts are quite easy to kill, actually. Two Onos can destroy a chair in seconds whereas it can take two Exo suites a good bit longer to destroy a hive.
You're assuming that expanding as a Marine Commander is simply to prevent Kharaa expansion. While this is true in some ways, the real reason to expand is about map control. With a second chair you have map control and that in itself holds intrinsic value that you cant measure. Not mention, as someone stated earlier, this provides you with a fall back in case you get bum rushed as well as proto lab upgrades.
Why should you automatically lose a game because your commander lost ONE base? That would make the absurd Onos rush even stronger and would punish an entire team for have a mediocre commander. Aliens can spam hives quickly so why should Marine players have to kill three hives to win the game while Kharaa players just bum rush ONE base for the win?
First, Marines don't have higher damage output until mid to late game and by this point Kharaa have already evolved to Fade or Onos, which have some of the highest damage in the game.
Second, command posts are quite easy to kill, actually. Two Onos can destroy a chair in seconds whereas it can take two Exo suites a good bit longer to destroy a hive.
You're assuming that expanding as a Marine Commander is simply to prevent Kharaa expansion. While this is true in some ways, the real reason to expand is about map control. With a second chair you have map control and that in itself holds intrinsic value that you cant measure. Not mention, as someone stated earlier, this provides you with a fall back in case you get bum rushed as well as proto lab upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, i'm getting a lot of counters on that so maybe it's wrong. I can kind of see how having only one post could be a little ridiculous.
As I wrote earlier though, what if we had an <i>option</i> to place something else instead of a command post.
What if the Robotics Factory were made to be only placable on Tech Points? It'd need to be more useful of course, but then what if Exos were built there instead of at the Prototype Lab? It's not like the move wouldn't make sense, and Exos already require a second base. Maybe, and this is a maybe, a slight buff could be given to MACs/ARCs. Maybe along with a price increase? It just seems something coming from a second Tech Point should be effective, if expensive. That way you wouldn't need multiple ARCs to fight, but at the same time, the aliens would only need to focus one down.
What do you guys think?
What if the Robotics Factory were made to be only placable on Tech Points? It'd need to be more useful of course, but then what if Exos were built there instead of at the Prototype Lab? It's not like the move wouldn't make sense, and Exos already require a second base. Maybe, and this is a maybe, a slight buff could be given to MACs/ARCs. Maybe along with a price increase? It just seems something coming from a second Tech Point should be effective, if expensive. That way you wouldn't need multiple ARCs to fight, but at the same time, the aliens would only need to focus one down.
What do you guys think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since exos and jetpacks need a second chair and both are bought at a protolab, it actually makes sense to make the protolab be built at tech points.
Or how about you can only build in pre-defined areas and need to take another chair to build further. Basically turn Chairs into a kind of Powerstation that makes the Nodes in the area work. (Thinking of SC2 Protoss).
Or how about you can only build in pre-defined areas and need to take another chair to build further. Basically turn Chairs into a kind of Powerstation that makes the Nodes in the area work. (Thinking of SC2 Protoss).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe... seems like that might be a little much for just a few guns. I know turtling is a problem for marine tactics, but we don't want to cripple their ability to defend at all by denying them weapons.