What if we removed the marine weapon upgrades?
Temphage
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And replaced them with guns?</div>Problems I see:
- Marines freshly spawned on the IP have passive armor and weapon upgrades which ensure they're always competitive throughout the game. This makes attacking a marine base just that much harder, but also means that marines don't have to invest any pres or time into not being a juicy snack for aliens.
- Aliens, on the other hand, have to invest pres into their lifeforms. When they die, they're lost, and if they don't have enough pres, they're stuck as a skulk which doesn't scale well with the endgame.
- People like things to play with.
Someone brought up the HMG and wanted it back, and I agree. I like what an HMG would mean in this game. It means that, if the LMG was weaker and no longer viable in the mid / endgame, marines would have to spend pres, making a personal investment into their firepower. If you reduced the effectiveness of the LMG to make 'room' for the HMG, it would mean that endgame skulks could still effectively fight endgame LMG marines. Marines who want to invest cash would get the HMG, but it would mean dying would make them lose it.
The further thought occurred that if we did that, why don't we just completely do away with the 'global' weapon bonuses? If the LMG functioned as the LMG does at W0 / W1 (let's say W0.5), and the HMG functioned as an LMG currently does at W3, then the damage bonuses would no longer become necessary. If the HMG is already replacing the 'best' automatic weapon the squishy marines get, then there's really no reason to then allow +10 / +20 / +30% damage bonuses on top of it, it would just make it ridiculous.
So what if we simply got rid of them, and gave the marines new guns to 'fill in the gaps', which is, well, how guns work? Instead of upgrading spooky hidden numbers that mysteriously make your bullets better, you grab a new piece of hardware. Aliens would know right away what you have and how effective you are, and could avoid you. If marines die, they wouldn't have their hardware anymore, and would then be kicked back down a notch on the level that a skulk is after he loses his lifeform.
This also would fix the shotgun damage scaling, which would mean boosting Fade health would no longer become necessary as they wouldn't have to worry about getting 2-shot-killed anymore, and make the shotgn less useful against an Onos. This would also mean that aliens could go without Carapace, since they could simply chose to avoid the marines that are packing the biggest guns, and instead go for the ones with the weaker guns that they know they can more readily handle.
Finally, this leaves a midgame slot open for marines to have another weapon, maybe the 'battle rifle' that people talk about so much. I'm not going to brainstorm what is needed here, but the opportunity is there.
Thoughts?
- Marines freshly spawned on the IP have passive armor and weapon upgrades which ensure they're always competitive throughout the game. This makes attacking a marine base just that much harder, but also means that marines don't have to invest any pres or time into not being a juicy snack for aliens.
- Aliens, on the other hand, have to invest pres into their lifeforms. When they die, they're lost, and if they don't have enough pres, they're stuck as a skulk which doesn't scale well with the endgame.
- People like things to play with.
Someone brought up the HMG and wanted it back, and I agree. I like what an HMG would mean in this game. It means that, if the LMG was weaker and no longer viable in the mid / endgame, marines would have to spend pres, making a personal investment into their firepower. If you reduced the effectiveness of the LMG to make 'room' for the HMG, it would mean that endgame skulks could still effectively fight endgame LMG marines. Marines who want to invest cash would get the HMG, but it would mean dying would make them lose it.
The further thought occurred that if we did that, why don't we just completely do away with the 'global' weapon bonuses? If the LMG functioned as the LMG does at W0 / W1 (let's say W0.5), and the HMG functioned as an LMG currently does at W3, then the damage bonuses would no longer become necessary. If the HMG is already replacing the 'best' automatic weapon the squishy marines get, then there's really no reason to then allow +10 / +20 / +30% damage bonuses on top of it, it would just make it ridiculous.
So what if we simply got rid of them, and gave the marines new guns to 'fill in the gaps', which is, well, how guns work? Instead of upgrading spooky hidden numbers that mysteriously make your bullets better, you grab a new piece of hardware. Aliens would know right away what you have and how effective you are, and could avoid you. If marines die, they wouldn't have their hardware anymore, and would then be kicked back down a notch on the level that a skulk is after he loses his lifeform.
This also would fix the shotgun damage scaling, which would mean boosting Fade health would no longer become necessary as they wouldn't have to worry about getting 2-shot-killed anymore, and make the shotgn less useful against an Onos. This would also mean that aliens could go without Carapace, since they could simply chose to avoid the marines that are packing the biggest guns, and instead go for the ones with the weaker guns that they know they can more readily handle.
Finally, this leaves a midgame slot open for marines to have another weapon, maybe the 'battle rifle' that people talk about so much. I'm not going to brainstorm what is needed here, but the opportunity is there.
Thoughts?
Comments
If you remove them you will have to remove alien upgrades. (carapace/celerity)
They should be balanced so that:
un-upgraded skulk = lmg 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus skulk = lmg 3.
un-upgraded Fade = shotty 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus fade = shotty 3.
un-upgraded onos = HMG 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus onos = HMG 3.
Problem solved.
If you remove them you will have to remove alien upgrades. (carapace/celerity)
They should be balanced so that:
un-upgraded skulk = lmg 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus skulk = lmg 3.
un-upgraded Fade = shotty 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus fade = shotty 3.
un-upgraded onos = HMG 0 and a carapace, celerity, focus onos = HMG 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was never under the impression that the HMG should be competitive with an Onos in this game... which is why I specifically said to balance the HMG around the W3 LMG's level of firepower. Unless the HMG was going to cost more than an Exo I don't know where you got that idea.
I dont see why a HMG shouldnt be 30 res... 40 res (JP and HMG) for a similar dps to exo that has alot less health but can fly.
Buff the fade up to NS1 levels and you now have a pretty useless lmg. (compared to both shotgun and HMG)
Infact you could almost say that the lmg would be as useless compared to a HMG as a skulk is compared to a fade...
Pretty balanced if you ask me.
edit: if anyone should have global upgrades, it should be aliens. They're basically one big evolving machine anyway
I also agree with the other posters that their should be a similar upgrade system for the aliens. Again, I'm all for seeing more mechanics be added.
people will bring up the point that without rifle upgrades, marines won't fare well in the midgame (celerity + leap), but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I'd rather have a solid early game build-up for aliens be possible, and then focus on balancing the mid and late game. right now it's just a complete disaster.
there's no reason why aliens should have to instantly play passively once shotguns are up, and not have an equivalent of their own (they currently do in the onos, but that's not really the best discussion. I'm not considering it as valid because the way it currently is implemented is broken). why aren't marines afraid when skulks suddenly move faster, have more armor, and can leap? they shouldn't necessarily <i>have</i> to stay competitive, they can play passively at that point too. just because it's worked a long way for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth trying something different. it also doesn't mean that you can't balance other things to make it so that marines stay competitive in the midgame against upgraded skulks, either.
people will bring up the point that without rifle upgrades, marines won't fare well in the midgame (celerity + leap), but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I'd rather have a solid early game build-up for aliens be possible, and then focus on balancing the mid and late game. right now it's just a complete disaster.
there's no reason why aliens should have to instantly play passively once shotguns are up, and not have an equivalent of their own (they currently do in the onos, but that's not really the best discussion. I'm not considering it as valid because the way it currently is implemented is broken). why aren't marines afraid when skulks suddenly move faster, have more armor, and can leap? they shouldn't necessarily <i>have</i> to stay competitive, they can play passively at that point too. just because it's worked a long way for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth trying something different. it also doesn't mean that you can't balance other things to make it so that marines stay competitive in the midgame against upgraded skulks, either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos might be more expensive, but it comes out way faster than advanced armory > proto lab > jetpack... and a single onos can usually kill a jetpack marine and then escape to heal up, giving it a far greater return.
i don't think balance is silky smooth at the moment, but on a whole i'm happy with it... there's still plenty of good games being played and i've never felt that i've lost purely because of a gamebreaking imbalance. mostly i just don't like the suggestions i'm seeing.
i think the only emerging problem for aliens is that fade feels like it should be a soft counter to jetpack marines, and they are certainly capable of beating jetpack marines... but it just seems a lot easier to blast someone in the face with a shotgun than blink around like a video game savant. in such a situation, the jetpack marine has 30 pres to lose against the fade's 50 and it's almost not even worth the risk.
that's the only problem i've experienced, and admittedly it influences my play in that i won't play fade as much. i prefer getting lerk instead, does the damage and cheaper and you have less risk of getting instakilled.
I was purposefully excluding the onos from the discussion as its implementation is currently flawed to the point where it should be patched to repair it. my point was that aliens do not have any response to elicit passivity or fear in marine play.
<!--quoteo(post=2010421:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:39 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 4 2012, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't think balance is silky smooth at the moment, but on a whole i'm happy with it... there's still plenty of good games being played and i've never felt that i've lost purely because of a gamebreaking imbalance. mostly i just don't like the suggestions i'm seeing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not happy with it. I don't see why every single competitive game, the strategy revolves almost entirely around the onos just because the lower lifeforms are too terrible to compete with shotguns and weapons upgrades.
I'm mostly afraid that they would bring back TankFades to fill the gap, which I don't want to see happen. People ask "you want a new life form? What role would it fill?" That vacuum left by the Onos, that right there, is what role it should fill.
Indeed, but no one said it had to have the same stats... HMG in NS1 had a horribly long reload time, Exo Minigun is fairly quick to cooldown tbh...
<!--quoteo(post=2010446:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:58 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 5 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm mostly afraid that they would bring back TankFades to fill the gap, which I don't want to see happen. People ask "you want a new life form? What role would it fill?" That vacuum left by the Onos, that right there, is what role it should fill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because it fills a gap left by an onos why does it have to play the same?
Fade is about hit and run, being the fastest and most precision weapon in the aliens arsenal.
Should you be able to outright kill a exo being welded? No... But you should be able to kill every-single marine trying to weld him... one at a time.
<!--quoteo(post=2010421:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:39 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 5 2012, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010421"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the only emerging problem for aliens is that fade feels like it should be a soft counter to jetpack marines, and they are certainly <b>[not]</b> capable of beating jetpack marines... but it just seems a lot easier to blast someone in the face with a shotgun than blink around like a video game savant. in such a situation, the jetpack marine has 30 pres to lose against the fade's 50 and it's almost not even worth the risk.
that's the only problem i've experienced, and admittedly it influences my play in that i won't play fade as much. i prefer getting lerk instead, does the damage and cheaper and you have less risk of getting instakilled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope you ment to put a "not" there...
Other wise please try playing a fade more:
Fade really isn't comparable to JP + shotty.
4 swipes (7-8 with nano armour and 10-12 with meds and nano armour) vs 2 shots from a shotgun...
Sure you can kill them...
But in no way is it an equal matching.
I'm not happy with it. I don't see why every single competitive game, the strategy revolves almost entirely around the onos just because the lower lifeforms are too terrible to compete with shotguns and weapons upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah well, i guess it's probable that we'll see a patch to make other alien build orders as viable as onos rush... but i'm also optimistic that competitive players will actually find a way to beat the onos rush. in starcraft, the metagame shifts sometimes take months.. (granted the timings etc are more complex in sc)
the onos itself is not a problem... onos is every much a part of the game as shotgun or mines, but you see them overused to hell in competitive matches too. however, the problem is that a lot of competitive teams opt for the onos rush because it has an incredibly high success rate - that is either due to it being 'flavor of the month' and not 'figured out' or else the marines simply suffer too much early damage and can't recover.
if onos rush does turn out to be overpowered, surely the logical step would be to change the marine tech tree slightly to give them an option. this change (as opposed to gimping onos rush and permenantly destroying a build) is surely better for the game.
Disagree... I would rather they stopped a build order than nerfed the onos.
Onos is a LATE game unit, it shouldn't be appearing 5 mins into the game.
What happens if they fix early onos by making exos and weapon 3 come out at 5 mins aswell?
Do you really want to see the ENTIRE techtree on the field 5 mins into the game?
Onos is a LATE game unit, it shouldn't be appearing 5 mins into the game.
What happens if they fix early onos by making exos and weapon 3 come out at 5 mins aswell?
Do you really want to see the ENTIRE techtree on the field 5 mins into the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well... marines buy an obs, 2 phase gates and shotguns... that's 60(?) res. that's almost as much 'tech' as an onos.
it's cheesy, but whatever man... cheese has been winning plenty of sc pro matches for a decade.
Your mistaking tech and res.
By your evaluation 15 mins are just as powerful as a Duel Minigun Exo.
could just tweak the bullet visuals and sounds ya know :)
Seems fair enough to me.
1] Either team can simply turtle effectively because they are upgraded over time which means resource towers are ultimately, in many ways, irrelevant.
2] How do you define what is early, mid, or late game? Do you say every 5 minutes , teams get improvements and evolutions? It's just silly.
The more diverse upgrades are, the more opening strategies there are available to teams. Remove even a few elements and the game just gets bland.
it's cheesy, but whatever man... cheese has been winning plenty of sc pro matches for a decade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um...dropping an Obs, researching Phase Tech, and immediately setting up Phase Gates is not cheesey. In fact, it's the only way for Marines to have any measure of map control. An experience commander wont research shotguns until he has weapons 1 anyways; they're pretty much useless until then in my opinion.
Anyways, an Onos is 75 PRes whereas rushing a phase tech expand requires an Armory, Observatory, Phase Tech, two Phase Gates, and nine times out of ten, Mines/Welders researched to create expansion defense all costs 85 PRes.
Onos, 75 PRes to drop an early, game changing rush that is in no way vital to alien success. Phase Tech Rush, 70 PRes (85 w/ mines/welders) to ensure that you don't get completely roflstomped in a game.
So cheesey...
An easy fix to the Onos rush would be to either remove them as an egg drop or to make them only available as an egg drop if you have three hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2010600:date=Nov 4 2012, 07:23 PM:name=Vile | Frisky)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vile | Frisky @ Nov 4 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2] How do you define what is early, mid, or late game? Do you say every 5 minutes , teams get improvements and evolutions? It's just silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not sure why they can't be related to tech points, that would make sense from an RTS standpoint.
Fades need to go back to 300/150. They are way too squishy to be of any use.
As it is now, the combat is very repetitive. True, the TACTICS in this game are really special, but the actual combat is extremely basic.
a really easy way to sorta balance this would be that marines need to visit the armory after spawning to get their lvl1/2/3 weps and armor upgragdes each time. just like aliens have to when they spawn. (i just realised that aliens don't have any damage upgrades, apart from lifeforms...)
But i really like the idea of having more variety in the weapons - especially since the rifle is with a marine for a long time, and instead of invisible upgrades like wep 1/2/3 and armr 1/2/3 there could be more utility style things to buy with Pres that help damage output, accuracy, as well as survivability.
Things like: (examples only - not saying they are good or balanced...)
*enchance optics module - replaces rifle bash with zoom
*motion tracking - like in ns1 (but some limits would have to placed on it, thats for another discussion...) its basically the marine equivalent of parasite, but without having to do the parasite part.
*bigger magazine
*faster reload style magazine
*better armor - but it slows you down.
Another completely different idea would be to allow of all weapons currently in the game to be used by both exo and normal marines. Exo's could be bought cheaper, but they would only have the normal marine rifle.
Then all of the other weapons would have to be purchased seperately as exo mods - flamethrower, GL, welder, claw(someone needs to make a falcon punch mod btw),shotgun, minigun
And vice versa, normal marines would be able to carry the claw or 1x minigun.
it would allow for more customisation.
edit : there is also the possiblity to go the way halo 2 went - having 3 main weapons, the small uzi type gun, fast RoF but lacks ranged accuracy, normal rifle, triple shot burst rifle, lacks RoF but has long range accuracy. You'd then have a nice squad of marines where each marine has a bit of a specialty in a given situation.
For example marines need 3 cc's to get weapons and armor 3. Aliens receive a small health/armor boost by default from crag, a minor speed/energy boost from shift, and maybe a slight damage boost from shade. That eliminates marine turtling and aliens get a more competitive end game.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Give it to skulks, that would make parasite quite interesting. ;-)
Right now only the lerk is somewhat decent at range, it would be ironic if infested marines are the means for aliens to get heavier firepower. :)
Give it to skulks, that would make parasite quite interesting. ;-)
Right now only the lerk is somewhat decent at range, it would be ironic if infested marines are the means for aliens to get heavier firepower. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-1 ?
How would that even work, spawn a copy of the infested marine? Taking over control of NPCs are fine, but absolutely horrible when it happens to a player losing control and the ability to actual play the game. I think xenocide need to ignore armor or something along that line so end game skulks can be somewhat useful and then rely on the commander for getting them lifeforms (as you dont get res while dead).