Questionable usefulness of Hydras.
Haplo_64
Join Date: 2012-04-03 Member: 149890Members
Join Date: 2012-04-03 Member: 149890Members
<div class="IPBDescription">They just don't scare people anymore.</div>I remember a time (back in the beta) when Hydras were an actual threat, if there was one dropped down somewhere, it would actually do enough damage to kill marines that were not careful, and if you had 3, then it took a grenade or two to wipe them out (with the gorge healing them), or being at enough range that they couldn't hit you.
For the last month or so, they've been demoted to tiny threats, unable to score anything.
Playing as marines, I don't fear them. I either run past them, kill the gorge and then wipe them out, or just blast a clip and a half of assault rifle into them and they're gone. Even in full view of the hydra, they don't do enough to ward me off. As a gorge, I feel that they are just a waste of my pres, due to the reasons above. A clump of three can and will be wiped out in the blink of an eye.
The marines turrets recently got a big buff, and they actually ward off/kill aliens, if they are placed correctly. Until bile bomb is researched, or an onos is made, there is no safe way of taking them out. I don't know how to buff them, but I just feel that they need a little tweaking again to get balance.
Any thoughts?
For the last month or so, they've been demoted to tiny threats, unable to score anything.
Playing as marines, I don't fear them. I either run past them, kill the gorge and then wipe them out, or just blast a clip and a half of assault rifle into them and they're gone. Even in full view of the hydra, they don't do enough to ward me off. As a gorge, I feel that they are just a waste of my pres, due to the reasons above. A clump of three can and will be wiped out in the blink of an eye.
The marines turrets recently got a big buff, and they actually ward off/kill aliens, if they are placed correctly. Until bile bomb is researched, or an onos is made, there is no safe way of taking them out. I don't know how to buff them, but I just feel that they need a little tweaking again to get balance.
Any thoughts?
Comments
If you're not going to let hydras be the turrets OCs were in NS1, maybe you could give it another purpose, like turn them into mini-crags, veils or shifts depending on what hives are built.
In big games however (i'm thinking 32 players and more) where you have 4-5+ gorges on one team, setting up big clusters of hydras can give you impressive denying power especially in a closed room hive like Locker room. So Hydras scale with # of gorges, while sentries don't, since their flat limit is unchanged.
this.
say you drop 3 hydra, that's 19 res cost (inc gorge cost).
is a shotgun marine (20 res) a threat to a gorge + 3 hydra? hardly. the hydra can't be ignored while you're standing at the back throwing bile/spit.
just imagine they're mines. i'd say hydra are perhaps even more useful than mines.
sentry turrets aren't exactly area denial, any alien can just run behind them and kill in a few seconds. like mines and hydra, they aren't self sufficient, but merely serve a similar role of just buying time for a player/unit response.
If hydras are meant to be temporary weapons for the gorge to hide behind while he spits, then let us get a full refund when we destroy them and give us a shortcut key to instantly destroy all 3 hydras.
say you drop 3 hydra, that's 19 res cost (inc gorge cost).
is a shotgun marine (20 res) a threat to a gorge + 3 hydra? hardly. the hydra can't be ignored while you're standing at the back throwing bile/spit.
just imagine they're mines. i'd say hydra are perhaps even more useful than mines.
sentry turrets aren't exactly area denial, any alien can just run behind them and kill in a few seconds. like mines and hydra, they aren't self sufficient, but merely serve a similar role of just buying time for a player/unit response.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens can only run behind sentries if the com placed them badly. If the gorge is attacking the marine, then the hydras will die from not being healed. Also, a shotgun marine is not going to go against hydras, it's the marines with the AR that will kill them, for no pres cost at all. They don't even need to kill all three, just one to make the gorge lose pres
A mine is an almostguaranteed kill, while a hydra at best is a 5 second distraction.
Hydras work to defend an early hive drop, as the game goes on they get more and more useless.
They cost 3 res... what do you expect?
Good thing they made sure LMGs and shotguns also became equally useless. Oh wait.
Good thing they made sure LMGs and shotguns also became equally useless. Oh wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? Pretty sure gorge goes from being a 10 res hive healer that drops 3 res hydras to being able to level entire marine bases and cause an exo train to run away...
Single grenade launcher > Gorge.
It takes 14 Bilebombs for a Gorge to destroy the power node alone. Without adrenaline this takes him about a minute and a half.
Yeah he's just PULVERIZING the place. Meanwhile the Marines are doing what exactly? Let's also consider the fact that this forces a player into an extremely specialized role, and they don't even get a pres refund for devolving to a lower lifeform.
A mine is an almostguaranteed kill, while a hydra at best is a 5 second distraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mine is a guaranteed kill??? wtf, open your eyes... aren't they even highlighted in alien-vision? plus afaik it's only a 1-hit-kill on skulk, anything else can just eat the mine then go back to heal up eating the resources.
if the gorge is attacking the marine, the marine dies in about 6-7 hits (with full upgrades). not to mention flinging a bile bomb will stop him abusing the corner etc to take potshots at your hydra.
but then again... i place defensive hydra hidden behind doorways, so they can only be attacked when a marine ENTERS the room (as opposed to offensive hydra where i'm supporting an onos etc i'll usually try to place them on the floor in the middle of a room just to soak up some bullets).
it's very tricky for the marine to come through the door if he has to simultaneously deal with 3 hydra + you. not to mention he's super vulnerable to a skulk flank.
It takes 14 Bilebombs for a Gorge to destroy the power node alone. Without adrenaline this takes him about a minute and a half.
Yeah he's just PULVERIZING the place. Meanwhile the Marines are doing what exactly? Let's also consider the fact that this forces a player into an extremely specialized role, and they don't even get a pres refund for devolving to a lower lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're blinded by bias, my friend.
whip > grenade launcher
granted you don't get a refund for devolving, but why are you devolving... can't you assign someone else to the gorge role? seriously, again i have to use a bad analogy help you comprehend. what you're saying is like an exosuit 'devolving' into a welder because your team needed more welders.
gorge bile-bomb used to be a good base siege strategy, but now it takes too long lategame, onos is basically alien's only trump card now.
I think if you did any of those things in the current state of the game they would be too powerful, in either scenario. Most people agree the gorge needs more buildings and i also agree with this. I think if there was an upgrade for hydras then that would be a good solution. Any other change would make gorge rush too strong.
gorge bile-bomb used to be a good base siege strategy, but now it takes too long lategame, onos is basically alien's only trump card now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos and lerk.
umbra and spores are super effective.
during siege moments, i can fly through dropping spores and after a few passes you start raking in the easy gas frags with very little effort. noone can chase you, because they die in 5 seconds unless they get out of the spores. i believe the only counter to this is flamethrower, and forcing marines to buy flamethrowers during a siege is handy.
Good thing they made sure LMGs and shotguns also became equally useless. Oh wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever thought that maybe its just because you are bad at the game? Are you complaining that aliens are underpowered? Even after the stats show a 51% win rate after 16000 games? Or are you going to refute that evidence?
Basically, they act as small deterrents, enough to keep marines off for just a little while, like clogs, but more expensive. Too expensive imo.
But maybe I'm just bitter because I've yet to get a single hydra kill. ^^
Have them emit the same kind of spores that lerks emit when they get umbra in the same AOE that the current hydra has range.
Now they are useful all game
Are worth the 3 resources that they cost
Damage doesn't stack during a rush.
aren't overpowered.
Unless they give us the full stats showing what time those victories were achieved, it's meaningless. Also, the numbers change every time one of you useless fanboys bandy that around.
As has been stated in the past by others, win percentage doesn't matter if nobody on the Alien team had fun during it. All the Alien victories I've seen were only achieved with half the team or more going Onos, and only before the Marines managed to finish their final techs. Every single one. I've not seen one victory that happened pre-Onos, and I've only seen a tiny handful of victories post-dual Exos / shotguns / A3/W3 / jetpacks.
The obvious comparison, I think is the Engineer in Team Fortress 2, which I'd like to think about for a second. When TF2 first came out, sentries were "undeniably extremely overpowered." (They have hardly changed at all since, for the record) What players didn't quite get was that being a completely immobile, "dumb" enemy, their extreme attack power was the one thing they had going for them. They can quickly take down even the very fast players, and deal more damage than a Heavy, even seeming to have no damage falloff. PLUS, they push you farther away with every shot. Overpowered?
Not when there are YouTube videos of Scouts taking them down with a pistol because an Engineer placed one next to a corner.
The sentries were sort of a highlight of the fact that the value is not in raw attack power, but intelligence. Enemy players are afforded many tricks available to them to beat sentries, and if they use them effectively, enemy teams of 6+ engineers will remark to your delight "OMG HOW WE LOSE? I MAEK SENTRY AND EVERYTHING!"
So my concern is <b>not</b> that things like Hydras are "unbalanced". I think you get what you pay for, and the Gorge's overall abilities are certainly not useless. My concern is mostly that they're un-fun; they're not so engaging for new players, who won't really see their effects even on their enemy rookies (until they learn better placement and teamwork). I'd actually be much more interested in a dynamic in which Hydras at first seem overpowered (perhaps having huge damage) until marines figure out that they attack slowly and predictably ("Dude those things are easy to dodge!...if you recognize where they are") at which Gorges get frustrated and develop new strategies of putting them in long-range corridors, or putting them on ceilings.
When it comes to balance, I'm usually much more interested in how the mechanics and dynamics can change, rather than just adjusting the damage numbers little by little.
I love the gorge, I just hate wasting pres on things I know will only deter someone for a few seconds. For 9 pres, it's a waste.