View of a nwcomer: Make Gorge as Startalien and Skulk as Second.
Larkis
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165882Members
Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165882Members
Hello, im Larkis and im new to the NS-Universe played NS2 for 8 Ours and never NS1.
So im a really newcomer played it the frist time, and think there is a little imbalance.
Ok i know that the game values are perfectly balanced, i know that W/L statistics say 50/50 and i know that the veterans are very happy.
But i think there is a little bit Skill imbalacne between the sides.
Lets me explain it.
First look to the Standard Marine. A Rifle, a Pistol and an axe. The standard marine dont require skill to be helpfull for the team. Go with the others, shoot everything with moe than 2 legs and build struktures. A system a new player understand in a few seconds. Its easy and its fun. There is no friendly fire so i dont must care. onlay shot, reload, shot reload, die and respawn. When i got 3 Points i can buy the repair tool and be much more helpful for the team by reparing Buildings and armor. The marin is a very noobfriendly class. And it stell goes noobfrienlier, cause granadaelauncher, and flametrohwer are very easy to use (rember, no friendly fire).
Now look the the skulk the standard alien. The skulk is a little bit like the Alien from avp. runnig on walls, sneaking behind edges and kill single marines. But the problem is, its hard to play.
1. You must learn the movement.
2. You must learn the maps and on which points you could sneak for enemys.
3. I must learn to fight the enemys. Thats really difficult for me. Caus the camera is near the ground i foten see only lgs when im in beating range and when the marine jumps around i often lost my target and die cause im really weak.
And thats the point. Being a marine is very easy, beeing a skulk is very difficult. A noob Marine is still helpfull for the team, building structures or repair, a noob-skulk is a wast for the team. he is enterly dying, he kills nobody, he blockades eggs and he warn there marines cause they are not very sneaky.
When the alienplayers got the skill therei no problem.But if they are rookies or not so skilled they got a huge problem in the first minutes of game whee everyone must be a skulk. The marines could push forward in groups, and the not so skilled skulks cant do anything against it. The marines could easily expand and the only working alientacti is avoiding the marines and attack ressourcepoints and popwerstations behind the enemy lines.
Most of the rounds as alien works for me on the same way.
Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. I only get ome lucky kills.
The alien team cant really expand, maybe only get 1-2 Ressource Points and a second hive.
Than i got 10 Points, could evolve to a gorge. And then the game is a lot of fun. Healing firends and structures, building turrets (but seems like they do anything to the enemy) and blockade ways. After a few minutes i die and be a skulk again. the same procedure as every time, until the marines got exos and granate lnauchner and blow there way to the skulls which couldnt do anything.
its a little bit frustrating, forced to playing an alien that you cant control and you cant ply the alien you want to play cause there are not enough points for it.
So i think form my rookie-view, that the aliens need a simple basic class. a class which could play everyone. And i think the gorne (with a few changes) could be that basic class for the aliens. Range fighting und the ability to deploy defensive, gives the aliens the chance to get 3 Hives and the bether aliens.
What do you think?
And sorry for my bad english. ;)
So im a really newcomer played it the frist time, and think there is a little imbalance.
Ok i know that the game values are perfectly balanced, i know that W/L statistics say 50/50 and i know that the veterans are very happy.
But i think there is a little bit Skill imbalacne between the sides.
Lets me explain it.
First look to the Standard Marine. A Rifle, a Pistol and an axe. The standard marine dont require skill to be helpfull for the team. Go with the others, shoot everything with moe than 2 legs and build struktures. A system a new player understand in a few seconds. Its easy and its fun. There is no friendly fire so i dont must care. onlay shot, reload, shot reload, die and respawn. When i got 3 Points i can buy the repair tool and be much more helpful for the team by reparing Buildings and armor. The marin is a very noobfriendly class. And it stell goes noobfrienlier, cause granadaelauncher, and flametrohwer are very easy to use (rember, no friendly fire).
Now look the the skulk the standard alien. The skulk is a little bit like the Alien from avp. runnig on walls, sneaking behind edges and kill single marines. But the problem is, its hard to play.
1. You must learn the movement.
2. You must learn the maps and on which points you could sneak for enemys.
3. I must learn to fight the enemys. Thats really difficult for me. Caus the camera is near the ground i foten see only lgs when im in beating range and when the marine jumps around i often lost my target and die cause im really weak.
And thats the point. Being a marine is very easy, beeing a skulk is very difficult. A noob Marine is still helpfull for the team, building structures or repair, a noob-skulk is a wast for the team. he is enterly dying, he kills nobody, he blockades eggs and he warn there marines cause they are not very sneaky.
When the alienplayers got the skill therei no problem.But if they are rookies or not so skilled they got a huge problem in the first minutes of game whee everyone must be a skulk. The marines could push forward in groups, and the not so skilled skulks cant do anything against it. The marines could easily expand and the only working alientacti is avoiding the marines and attack ressourcepoints and popwerstations behind the enemy lines.
Most of the rounds as alien works for me on the same way.
Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. Spawn, seachring enemy, find, attack, die. I only get ome lucky kills.
The alien team cant really expand, maybe only get 1-2 Ressource Points and a second hive.
Than i got 10 Points, could evolve to a gorge. And then the game is a lot of fun. Healing firends and structures, building turrets (but seems like they do anything to the enemy) and blockade ways. After a few minutes i die and be a skulk again. the same procedure as every time, until the marines got exos and granate lnauchner and blow there way to the skulls which couldnt do anything.
its a little bit frustrating, forced to playing an alien that you cant control and you cant ply the alien you want to play cause there are not enough points for it.
So i think form my rookie-view, that the aliens need a simple basic class. a class which could play everyone. And i think the gorne (with a few changes) could be that basic class for the aliens. Range fighting und the ability to deploy defensive, gives the aliens the chance to get 3 Hives and the bether aliens.
What do you think?
And sorry for my bad english. ;)
Comments
win loss is not at 50-50, many veterans arent please at all.
Im sorry you are finding a skulk hard to play, it would be better if you learnt how to play a skulk better by observeing other skulks.
You do start the round with 20 res, you can go gorge twice with that, which if you are careful, could be 10 more res than you need to stay gorge for the entire map.
Its kind of obvious to people have played for a while why this is such a bad idea, and it will be obvious to you soon im sure.
Just imagine trying to defend against egg locking when everyone popping out the eggs at marine feet comes out as a vanilla gorge instead of a leaping skulk.
just imagine playing on a 24 player server, walking around as marine 1 minute into the game when alien have placed 36 hydras and 120 clogs.
The problem, and the solution, is probably that the skulk is not balanced properly; it's not balanced across skill levels (like you said new players have a lot of problem with it) and during game progression.
Have you seen the <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xunojd_gorge-rush-veil-ns-2-build-225_videogames" target="_blank">Gorge Rush</a>?
Let the game be skill based please, just like the old days (Esf, The specialists, Vampire slayer, Hidden source etc... all those games were skill based). Once you know how to play you will have alot more fun!
Too many games are just too easy... Enjoy the unique (for you: "hard") gameplay as an alien and enjoy that this is one of the few games that offer a nice smooth and unique way of mastering a game. Learn how to go fast without celerity etc, know the map and cut marines off etc, loads and loads of fun
edit: Marines is just like alot of other games = Aiming and dodging
Alien is a mix of old games = first of all ns1, then the leap from Vampire slayer and the melee from VS, you need fast aiming like in ESF etc, stealth like the hidden etc, Wall jumping like Bhop etc...
Just die alot and learn how to play the skulk, once you know how it's rlly nice!
The only thing I can say you, is to practice skulk play and learn the maps.
Skulks can be very powerful, but need some skill, yes. Engaging over walls and ceiling and never through a long hallway. If you aim properly you only need 2 bites and 1 parasite hit to kill a marine without armor upgrades.
You can sneak by using the sprint-key.
It is more difficult. But it creates a challenge and that is why you play, isn't it? ;)
I miss the days where at the end of the game, the whole team went gorge and spammed babblers at marine start, and let the babblers finish the game.
Get used to both. Personally I do better with skulk than marine.
Have you seen the <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xunojd_gorge-rush-veil-ns-2-build-225_videogames" target="_blank">Gorge Rush</a>?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice Video. :)
But as Hunter says, we got 20 Points at the start (i still not noticed that :/) ans so everyone can get a Groge at start. So Gorge Rush Problem is still in there. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just imagine playing on a 24 player server, walking around as marine 1 minute into the game when alien have placed 36 hydras and 120 clogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actual Hydras are useless.
As an Alien i build 3 Hydras at a play later a Marine run trough the tunnel, ignore the 3 hydras and is still alive in the Hive-Room.
As a marine a see a hydra, put me in front of it and shoot it down or hit it with the axe.
I dont know the sence in hydras, i only build them when i got 10 Points +.
Got two more matches.
1. Match:
As a Marine, fight Aliens, push them back, aquire new rooms, get Exos, kill the hives.
2. Match:
As an Alien, fight Marines, fall back cause you cant fight against Groups of 3-5 Marines, waitong for get Points to envolve in something other than a skulk, waiting for Enemys get Exos and die trying to defend a base as Skulk against 3+ Exos.
Circle o Imbalance.
But its a lot of annoing. If one side has to use a lot of skill and the other side just need simple COD Gameplay. Thats imbalance.
20 bucks says you run in straight lines at marines.
Learn to use the walls and ceiling to your advantage, Learn to use the momentum boost skulks get by bouncing off walls, Learn to Bounce Around like a cracked out dog in combat.
Learn those 3 things, and you will be able to sh*t on anyone.
That way, you can watch what they do and learn from them. Also, 2+ skulks together can kill marines a lot easier. Strength in numbers.
While you are still learning you don't have to try to fight marines all the time. You can use your skulk to bite down marine structures, scout and relay information to your team. All of that helps your team.
I've been playing since NS1 and I'm still not great with a skulk. I still find ways to have fun with it though.
i never earned 20 Bucks so easily. :D
<!--quoteo(post=2006449:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Nov 2 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Learn to use the walls and ceiling to your advantage, Learn to use the momentum boost skulks get by bouncing off walls, Learn to Bounce Around like a cracked out dog in combat.
Learn those 3 things, and you will be able to sh*t on anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actual dont play skulk anymore. Until i die and we are out of ressources.
And the other question is, what must the marine learn to play effective?
And the other question is, what must the marine learn to play effective?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of the skills CoD players lack, Such as teamwork and communication.
Also never playing skulk, you cant complain about something you refuse to take the time to learn.
That way, you can watch what they do and learn from them. Also, 2+ skulks together can kill marines a lot easier. Strength in numbers.
While you are still learning you don't have to try to fight marines all the time. You can use your skulk to bite down marine structures, scout and relay information to your team. All of that helps your team.
I've been playing since NS1 and I'm still not great with a skulk. I still find ways to have fun with it though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And who shoul defend the hives against the Group of 4-5 Marines? The Skulks who will die very fast in crossfire? The Gorge, which need a lot of hits where the marines only need 2-3? The useles hydra?
I know the skulk is a very good unit. very good to scout, very good to sneak and very good in getting behind the lines. But he is not good in defending positions.
As marine its still easy.
If gets a new positin, put an armory there, but a phasegate there and maybe a few sentrys. Then they could walk away. When the Alien attacks, they went to the gates and a lot of marines come trough there to defend a position.
And the Aliens?
Skulks are weak unit, scouts and special to sneack and attack single marines from behind. There are not very good in open battle between a bubble of marines. As a marine in must never retreat if the enemy only have skulks and Gorges. Gorges ran away to save there lifes and the 10 Point and Skulks will die in crossfire very fast. And with te repairtool (for 5 Points i think) they still can go on and fight.
So Skulks cant defend the base. What is with gorges? The Barricades are shot down very fast and hydra are useless weak. But there have a good range attack and a few gorges could hold a position while build it full of hydras and allways healing each other. But it needs 10 Points to envolve to a gorge. Not everyone has this points. And in the late game the aliens re under peasure, the skulks can defend, the onos are to expensive than the ressource points falls, there is no new points and the only unit to defend is a unit that cant defend.
Do you see this point?
When the marines are loosing, there are a lot of Range-Soldiers standing by to defend there points against an army, which best Fighter are only melees.
When the aliens are loosig, there are a lot of weak melee-fighter against granatde Launcher and flametrowhers which prvent the marines for melee combat.
Marines dont need teamwork and communication.
The computer take all points of conversation, mostly (build this here). As a marine player i never must say a word or post something. Only looking on map and go there where the action is.
And which teamwork? There is noc place for temwork. If you got the repair tool, you can repair the armor of the other. That was it. The rest, stay by the other and shot everything dont need teamwork. Its the same teamwork as in COD. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=2006495:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Nov 2 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also never playing skulk, you cant complain about something you refuse to take the time to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Than tell me, how can i use skulks to fight a buble of 5 Marines? You got a Group of 5 Marines walking as a Bubble towards your hive. And you have 5 Skulks. What do you do? And the Marines will allwaya stay in the bubble and walk forward.
How can i defend a hive against a bubble of 4-5 Marines or 3-4 marines and an Exco only with the same number of Skulks?
How can i defend a hive against a bubble of 4-5 Marines or 3-4 marines and an Exco only with the same number of Skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With an exo, good luck - if all your team has is skulks then you're already losing. For normal skulk vs marine though it's all about utilizing the home field advantage. They can't shoot the hive and the skulks at the same time, so hide and let them come into the room first before you ambush them. The general rule of thumb for playing skulk is that you always want the marines to be distracted by something or other before you attack. Be patient and wait for the right opportunity. If you can do that and you aim your bites properly then it's an easy kill every time.
Also note that Lerks are excellent at hive defense and not expensive at all. If you want to play a ranged alien that's your solution.
How can i defend a hive against a bubble of 4-5 Marines or 3-4 marines and an Exco only with the same number of Skulks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4-5 marines are easy to defend against with a corresponding amount of skulks. Running in a straight line normally doesn't help your chances though.
If all you have against exos are a bunch of skulks then the game was already decided a long time ago you just hadn't realised it yet.
5 marines vs 5 skulks should be a party for the skulks if they don't have GLs to saturate their bubble with. If you get 5 coordinated skulks attacking a group of five marines mid-game(straight into melee from around a turn or something), you should have a 60% chance of slaughtering off that group before they kill you. And since they most likely are further away from their PG than you are from the nearest hive, you will most likely be back at them before the dead marines get back, giving you time to push and take out some more buildings and whatnot they've built.
Secondly, gorges are not equal to marines 1on1. You need at least a skulk around that you can spray or help with some spitting, but killing a marine as a gorge requires more time than it takes for him to kill you. Especially if he's moving around while you are trying to spit into his face. Most of my gorge kills are against unaware axe-choppers going after my clogs. Gorge rush is possible though, but as mentioned above, it would become a boring game right away with 12 gorges besieging the marine base right off the bat.
You're gonna have to make an effort to learn, adapt, evolve into a better alien player if you want to survive. ;)
On the other side, when the marines only have the normal Rifle and now extra. Are they already loosing too? Or have they the option to came back?
<!--quoteo(post=2006577:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 2 2012, 07:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For normal skulk vs marine though it's all about utilizing the home field advantage. They can't shoot the hive and the skulks at the same time, so hide and let them come into the room first before you ambush them. The general rule of thumb for playing skulk is that you always want the marines to be distracted by something or other before you attack. Be patient and wait for the right opportunity. If you can do that and you aim your bites properly then it's an easy kill every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that works also with groups of marines, which take care over each other?
<!--quoteo(post=2006577:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:21 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 2 2012, 07:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also note that Lerks are excellent at hive defense and not expensive at all. If you want to play a ranged alien that's your solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lerk needs 30 Points. 30! The tripple of the Gorge. i think when i dont get enough money for the gorge i will never get enough for the Lerk.
Try watching some tournament games. They're a good learning tool.
5 marines vs 5 skulks should be a party for the skulks if they don't have GLs to saturate their bubble with. If you get 5 coordinated skulks attacking a group of five marines mid-game(straight into melee from around a turn or something), you should have a 60% chance of slaughtering off that group before they kill you. And since they most likely are further away from their PG than you are from the nearest hive, you will most likely be back at them before the dead marines get back, giving you time to push and take out some more buildings and whatnot they've built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok with good coordinatet Teamwork (and we all now how good these are on pugs) you have a little bit more than 50% to kill the enemy group which hase no teamwork, which just stay together? Sounds that like balancing?
<!--quoteo(post=2006582:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:23 AM:name=duke_Qa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (duke_Qa @ Nov 2 2012, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2006582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondly, gorges are not equal to marines 1on1. You need at least a skulk around that you can spray or help with some spitting, but killing a marine as a gorge requires more time than it takes for him to kill you. Especially if he's moving around while you are trying to spit into his face. Most of my gorge kills are against unaware axe-choppers going after my clogs. Gorge rush is possible though, but as mentioned above, it would become a boring game right away with 12 gorges besieging the marine base right off the bat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is see bei Gorges is the group effect. A group of Gorges could build a nice defence Wall of Glogs with hydras on there side. A group of gorges could heal each other while fighting the enemy. And cause there are range the marines must take cover and cant fight as bubble in the middle of the place.
The marines can turtle when they under preasure and can regroup and breakt out of the turtle and come back into game.
The aliens dont have the abbility do defend. they can olny win if they out the enemy under constant preasure. If the aliens must defend they lost, caouse they cant do it. My Opinion.
NO! NO! BAD!
It is NOT easy to be useful to the team as gorge. It is very easy to waste res on utterly useless garbage. It is very easy to not be in the right place when it comes to team mates needing healing. To play such that you are actually helpful to the team as gorge is MUCH MUCH more difficult than to play such that you are helpful to the team as skulk. In combat a gorge can basically be ignored until the skulks nearby are dead, even a bad skulk has to be killed before marines can feel safe. Support classes DO NOT work well as the default class for any game. They might FEEL easier to play, because they get to avoid combat, but that actually makes them MUCH more difficult to play, because you constantly skirt the line of not being useful at all. I'd prefer to have an empty slot on my team than a gorge that doesn't know what he's doing. At least the empty slot might be filled by someone that would suck up bullets for me.
The computer take all points of conversation, mostly (build this here). As a marine player i never must say a word or post something. Only looking on map and go there where the action is.
And which teamwork? There is noc place for temwork. If you got the repair tool, you can repair the armor of the other. That was it. The rest, stay by the other and shot everything dont need teamwork. Its the same teamwork as in COD. ;)
Than tell me, how can i use skulks to fight a buble of 5 Marines? You got a Group of 5 Marines walking as a Bubble towards your hive. And you have 5 Skulks. What do you do? And the Marines will allwaya stay in the bubble and walk forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many hours do you have played?
One thing is for sure, new players will be much better at marines since we've been playing shooters for a very long time. Aliens, however, actually have the advantage in the game right now. It takes a lot of time to master the movement, but you will get better and see.
But a Group of Medics-Engineers which heal thereselfes and build defences are in my opinion much bether als a only team of scouts against heavys with medics.