Skulk - Questions from a pre-orderer
Flatlander
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159575Members
Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159575Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Skulks don't look THAT bad.</div>I see basically infinite complains about skulks being outrageously underpowered.
But from what I've seen, if you catch a marine by surprise (and it doesn't look too hard to do) you can kill them before they even have a chance to really react.
I've watched quite a few livestreams and it seems VERY easy to hide and sneak around Marines and then attack at the opportune moment.
I can see myself doing ok in Pub games as a Skulk, but in competitive games where people might cover each other and be more skilled at keeping alert it might be nearly impossible to get close to a marine without being noticed.
Anyone who plays the beta want to put their input on this? To me the Skulk is basically an assassin that scouts, gathers intel (parasite), and only engages when they have the upper hand. But I guess that tilts the favor towards the Human team...
How many bites does it take to kill a marine? and does the bite upgrade in damage ever or do marines with armor later on become nearly impossible to kill as a skulk?
But from what I've seen, if you catch a marine by surprise (and it doesn't look too hard to do) you can kill them before they even have a chance to really react.
I've watched quite a few livestreams and it seems VERY easy to hide and sneak around Marines and then attack at the opportune moment.
I can see myself doing ok in Pub games as a Skulk, but in competitive games where people might cover each other and be more skilled at keeping alert it might be nearly impossible to get close to a marine without being noticed.
Anyone who plays the beta want to put their input on this? To me the Skulk is basically an assassin that scouts, gathers intel (parasite), and only engages when they have the upper hand. But I guess that tilts the favor towards the Human team...
How many bites does it take to kill a marine? and does the bite upgrade in damage ever or do marines with armor later on become nearly impossible to kill as a skulk?
Comments
On the topic of damage, yes the skulks bite stays static while the marine amour increases as the game goes on. Skulks can get other upgrades to help survive, but the number of bites for a kill will increase.
On the topic of damage, yes the skulks bite stays static while the marine amour increases as the game goes on. Skulks can get other upgrades to help survive, but the number of bites for a kill will increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If skulk bite damage and armor doesn't scale then they should at least allow parasite to scale depending on hive number
no, it doesnt need to scale, thats the point of higher lifeforms. parasite is not meant for a main attack, its supposed to be what it is now.
as already said, skulk bite in build 223 is really frustrating
<u>Skulk</u>
HP = 70
Armor = 10 (effectively 20 HP), 30 with Carapace
<b>Total = 90</b>
<u>Marine</u>
HP = 100
Armor = 30 (effectively 60 HP), 50/70/90 based on Armor 1/2/3
<b>Total = 160</b>
By default, a Skulk will die to 10 bullets from an Assault Rifle (10 dmg per bullet), 1 more bullet because alien lifeforms have passive HP regeneration. Skulk will die instantly to a single Shotgun blast if all pellets connect (10 pellets per shot x 10 dmg), a direct grenade hit/close range splash (130 dmg), standing very close to a Mine (125 dmg), and 4 bullets from Exosuit Minigun (25 dmg per bullet). I haven't figured out the calculation for Flamethrower yet...
A standard Marine will die in 3 Bites (75 dmg each) or 2 Bites + 1 Parasite (150 + 10 dmg). The number of bites increase due to Armor upgrades (Lv.1 = 3 bites, Lv.2 = 4 bites, Lv. 3 = 4 still). Unfortunately, aliens have no way to scale their damage, just Enzyme Cloud to increase attack speed.
Hope that helps.
And what if I don't have enough pres for a higher life form? Am I to be penalized as a skulk against upgraded marines? Making parasite scale would help even the playing field, skulk vs. Level 3 marine somewhat.
what? how does that even remotely make sense? parasite is not a weapon for causing damage, it's for tracking marines... bite doesn't need to scale, either. if anything, it's HP / armor that should scale, since level 3 rifle can take out lerks with carapace with ease.
if you don't have enough pres, get more RTs. that's the whole point of RTS games, you know, map control and stuff.
what if a marine doesnt have the res to buy himself a shotgun, but it getting destroyed by fades, are the devs supposed to do something about that too? its called playing better. you shouldnt get rewarded for losing.
Knockback was added to alien melee attacks for the most recent builds. A lot of it. So in a fight, skulk bites are pushing marines out of bite range. Even with this disadvantage, if you can stay close you can get a few bites in....
If you can land the bites. Skulk bite range + damage cone has been reduced, to the point that if the exact center of your skulk's mouth isn't solidly on the marine model, your bite won't register. This leads to a lot of protracted fights where 1-4 skulks have their jaws all over the marine, but none of the bites land.
Then there's the fact that carapace doesn't scale, so skulks get weaker as marines get stronger. Combined with the fact that once you die as a higher life form, you are stuck as a skulk, while marines respawn with all of their upgraded damage and armor intact. It can be a frustrating experience.
UWE is making some changes to the skulk bite in 224, which hopefully helps a bit.
How I play skulk is I <u>ambush</u> get as many feasable bites as possible then run out <u>without</u> dieing. How I've observed others playing skulks though is different. They <u>run in</u> bite as much as possible then <u>die</u>. What I think a lot of people don't understand is its not a toe to toe balance like counterstrike, where you both stand an equal footing. The balance is more akin to something like Dota where you have to think about how to get the upper hand in a fight. You need to gank and be smart about your fights. Personaly this is why there is so much complaining.
so to reiterate what I do is ambush a marine get a bite or two, run up a wall, get another bite set up and go in again etc, if I don't kill them in enough time ( health dependent) I retreat. Where as most people seem to go in and and circle until there dead. Or they go in do what I do but don't retreat and die. In my opinion skulks require strategic skill, where as marines require aiming skill, more or less. I think that's something people tend to underestimate and is the main reason as to why marines seem OP.
However I will say in the current build (223) skulks aren't very easy to play. Once again, however this is being fixed in 224 by adding glancing hits.
EDIT: changed some words around for clarity.
EDIT2: In regards to the person above me:
1. I think move speed on marines, without sprinting, needs to be decreased a little since the jumping in combat buff.
2. The knockback simply shouldn't exist and seems more like a bug to me. Seeing as it only happens (excessively) when the marine is mid-air.
3. As to the skulk bite range and cone. Range is fine, however cone isn't and is being fixed in 224 with glancing bites. Which makes sense.
4. Not completely related to your fourth paragraph, but. I feel marine shotguns should not one shot a skulk from five feet away, UNLESS your accuracy is dead on. Currently you don't have to be dead on but 'close enough'. other than that everything is fine
But from what I've seen, if you catch a marine by surprise (and it doesn't look too hard to do) you can kill them before they even have a chance to really react.
I've watched quite a few livestreams and it seems VERY easy to hide and sneak around Marines and then attack at the opportune moment.
I can see myself doing ok in Pub games as a Skulk, but in competitive games where people might cover each other and be more skilled at keeping alert it might be nearly impossible to get close to a marine without being noticed.
Anyone who plays the beta want to put their input on this? To me the Skulk is basically an assassin that scouts, gathers intel (parasite), and only engages when they have the upper hand. But I guess that tilts the favor towards the Human team...
How many bites does it take to kill a marine? and does the bite upgrade in damage ever or do marines with armor later on become nearly impossible to kill as a skulk?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I too after watching many videos and streams thought this. After seeing many tournaments though i'd say they need a little bit of love. Skulks are VERY fragile, 1 v 1 a skilled skulk can beat a skilled marine. 2 v 1 not so much. I've seen skulk packs annihilated by 3-4 marines. or even 2 in tourny (archaea im looking at you, more specifically fana and tane) its no secret aliens are on the back foot at the moment. However i doubt this will be the case in 224/225.
if you don't have enough pres, get more RTs. that's the whole point of RTS games, you know, map control and stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm for anything that puts skulks on an even playing field with upgraded marines.
youre comparing pub marines to fana and tana (taner lol). most pub marines are not going to solo hordes of skulks like they do. 1v1 once the knockback and collision is fixed in CQB skulks have the advantage, especially now that they will have poor aim assist.
Even with the knockback gone, rines will still be able to Bruce Lee themselves through the air. I'm looking forward to see if this glancing blows deal helps at all.
I'm aware that most pub games are not the same as comp ones. I was referring to the general balance from both perspectives. however i do feel that if this game is going to be balanced around a comp scene then it must be balanced according to that level of balance.
I honestly don't think glancing blow is set up well quite yet. Currently (from what I've seen) It's 75 damage for the current cone and 25 for the more widened cone. I feel it should be a much smoother cone where its a 120 cone that ranges from 25 to 90 damage. So if you are extremely accurate you can kill an armor 0-1 marine with 2 bites without parasite but only if you have good aim.
So basically if you're slightly off, like almost every decent aimed bite is, it's more around the 75 damage mark. Where as if it's off to the side of your aim its 25 and if it's dead on it's 90. But I would like it to be smoother than just three variables so it could be quite literally any value between 25-90
So basically if you're slightly off like almost every decent aimed bite is it's more around the 75 damage mark. Where as if it's off to the side of your aim its 25 and if it's dead on it's 90. But I would like it to be smoother than just three variables so it could be quiet literally any value between 25-90<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are at least 3 damage cones for the 224, IIRC from something Cory said. So something like 75-50-25-0.
I agree, I think skulks need to be on the same playing field as Exos just incase you cant
afford to onos in the first 13 seconds of the game.
Watch the 75, 50, 25 bite cone be totally overkill and then everyone will be back to good old:
"Aliens are OP yo!"
Skulks get armor that allows them to survive a shotgun blast (or few more bullets).
And Marines get armor that allows them to survive 1 more bite.
How is that NOT even? If the stats are correct the armor difference between level 2 and 3 upgrades don't even register for a Skulk. (Of course until this new update 224 where I hear glancing bites will do half damage)
Basically what we are at right now is. A skulk needs to bite a marine 3-4 times before they are shot 10-13 times. (Unless a shotgun where it is probably 1-2 times).
Anyone know the rate of fire of the assault rifle? Or even the rate of fire of the shotgun and bite as well?
Marines have a sprint (that stops reloading). Do Skulks have a sprint? or are they always at full speed? As far as I have been told Sprinting Marines are faster than un-upgraded skulks. (To me that sounds absolutely ridiculous)
Also,
Does the infection buff Aliens in their own environment? Marines have light, which gives them higher viability and the ability to build structures.
Aliens get Infection that gives them the ability to build structures, does it give them a benefit? Be cool if it was like the Creep from Starcraft and you had a speed boost in your own environment.
Marines have a sprint<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RoF on the AR is 50 bullets in 2.8 seconds. bullets do 10 damage a pop.
Marine sprint should be removed.. I've never heard anyone argue to keep it in and it makes it rather easy to trap aliens in the starting hive within 1 minute of the game with a little cooridination. I honestly see no reason to have it in the game it gives marines way too much mobility. The way I see it is remove phasegates or remove sprint because sprint is nearly the same thing!
EDIT: of course I'm over exaggerating, but still. Sprint needs a serious nerf or a removal. It give marines as much mobility as aliens without the need for phasegates.
I'm guessing a clip is 50 bullets?
SO you can kill 4 skulks without reloading solo if you have good enough aim.
I can see how that could become a problem when there are multiple marines against multiple skulks.
2 marines shooting at a hallway with skulks, maximum of 8 dead skulks in 2.8 seconds... It makes it a HUGE disadvantage to come in groups (at least from the same direction) for skulks and huge advantage to stay in groups as marines. Team Vs Team battles are bad for skulks and good for marines.
I'm guessing a clip is 50 bullets?
SO you can kill 4 skulks without reloading solo if you have good enough aim.
I can see how that could become a problem when there are multiple marines against multiple skulks.
2 marines shooting at a hallway with skulks, maximum of 8 dead skulks in 2.8 seconds... It makes it a HUGE disadvantage to come in groups (at least from the same direction) for skulks and huge advantage to stay in groups as marines. Team Vs Team battles are bad for skulks and good for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but poor hitreg in the past (and often present) means no one can actually kill 4 skulks with a single clip. I shudder to think what it would be like if marines had perfect hitreg.
Also about scaling. Marines scale armour and damage. Skulks scale armour and mobility - carapace for example, and celerity and leap. They also gain improved abilities for ambushing - silence and cameo.
In theory, fully upgraded stock skulk should be more than a match for a fully upgraded stock marine. However the marine can reach all his upgrades with a single commandchair, while the aliens need 3 hives.
Also about scaling. Marines scale armour and damage. Skulks scale armour and mobility - carapace for example, and celerity and leap. They also gain improved abilities for ambushing - silence and cameo.
In theory, fully upgraded stock skulk should be more than a match for a fully upgraded stock marine. However the marine can reach all his upgrades with a single commandchair, while the aliens need 3 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, plus remember that celerity doesn't work if you get shot. So skulks still have to close the distance with marines, which with weapon 3 becomes a lot harder because they can't take as many bullets. So while vanilla marines do more and more damage to skulks, skulks to less and less damage to marines as the game goes on. It takes 4 or 5 bites to kill armor 3 marines, which is very difficult to do. Especially when they are getting medpacked.
That's what higher lifeforms are for, but once you lose them you're back to skulk, while the marine respawns and is just as strong as ever.
Skulks get armor that allows them to survive a shotgun blast (or few more bullets).
And Marines get armor that allows them to survive 1 more bite.
How is that NOT even? If the stats are correct the armor difference between level 2 and 3 upgrades don't even register for a Skulk. (Of course until this new update 224 where I hear glancing bites will do half damage)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because marines can spend team res to upgrade their basic load-outs damage to offset the aliens increased armor, aliens have no such upgrade. It can get pretty frustrating later on in a game as a skulk.