Should the recent tourney be used as a baseline for future buffs?
MaximumSquid
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
I originally was going to just list the unused strats/upgrades during the final and semi finals, but maybe I'll backup one more step to see if this is acceptable
The premise is simple. . .
If the best teams out there aren't even touching something is it time to give it a boost?
It's not just stuff that is unpopular. . .
Certain buildings were left bare <i>(never build once)</i> in any game no matter how long the games went for
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Reference:
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686</a>
The premise is simple. . .
If the best teams out there aren't even touching something is it time to give it a boost?
It's not just stuff that is unpopular. . .
Certain buildings were left bare <i>(never build once)</i> in any game no matter how long the games went for
---
Reference:
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686</a>
Comments
The premise is simple. . .
If the best teams out there aren't even touching something is it time to give it a boost?
It's not just stuff that is unpopular. . .
Certain buildings were left bare <i>(never build once)</i> in any game no matter how long the games went for
---
Reference:
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/336410686</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, its looking bad atm ... Alot of the tech feels like feature fluff
UWE should never even think about basing parts of the game and game play off what a competitive team uses and doesn’t use. Now don’t get me wrong, broad casted competitive games and tournaments are great PR but in my opinion the main use of this game will be pub games. And we all know pub games tend to play much more different than competitive play, so let’s allow them to play how they feel fit.
- Aliens at 1 hive are not viable, almost all teams immediately rushed that second hive
- Aliens, even at a 2nd hive, generally struggle to maintain map control, until the 2nd hive onos egg, a majority of the teams went for an onos egg and that onos egg could usually seal the deal, provided the res advantage and skill discrepancy wasn't too big.
- 2nd hive onos egg is a little too viable atm, but it's a necessity for aliens to stand a chance in a lot of cases.
Though I suppose some may disagree with this.
Second, I noticed that hives were incredibly vulnerable from all vectors while marines had the luxury of walling with armory placement <i>and </i>downright ignoring walls with their siege weapons. That just seems odd to me, if you're going to give them 2 indirect fire siege weapons why wouldn't you give aliens superior terraforming? Forget doorways, aliens should be changing <i>rooms</i>.
I'm still struggling with the concept of structures being required to maintain alien upgrades. If we follow the logic of hives being egg generators, I can understand losing a hive creating some issues. However, in the grand scheme of life with how colonial queens tend to store semen for <i>years </i>after mating and how biologics have a habit of spraying their unit of inheritance all over the place, I'm having trouble believing that advancements wouldn't at least persist with the hive.
That's what I've got out of the tourneys.
The other problem is that comp. games are 6v6. Inherently, a 6v6 game isn't played like a 9v9 game, which isn't played like a 12v12 game.
So, making the game perfect for a 6v6 comp. game sometimes it makes it unplayable for a 12v12 pub game.
<!--quoteo(post=1994648:date=Oct 21 2012, 06:02 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Oct 21 2012, 06:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't get a chance to watch any streams this weekend. What in particular was not used?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hardly anything was used except leap, cara, and blink. Sometimes celerity.
A lot of games for aliens went: quick 2nd hive, onos egg, leap or maybe a second onos egg, cara
Marines generally 1 or 2 people sweep around the map to make RTs, while 3 or 4 early harass hives/eggs with or without PG.
The craziest game I watched was exertus vs inversion on tram. It involved dropping 2 early onos eggs, and then quite a few oni/exos dying with 50 minutes of stalemate.
As an example valkyries were not used for years in pro starcraft, after fantasy started to use them, they became almost standard.
Social dynamic, mainly imitation plays a big role as well. It's also hard to distinguish between the effect of skill and strategy.
A controlled balance team would do a much better job.
truer words...
I don't think they just haven't discovered the awesomeness of silence or camo; maybe the cost/benefit is just too great.
Especially silence, I ###### my pants when a skulk emerges out of seemingly nowhere.
I regularly watch competitive dota, and I even played it on a midrange competitive level for a while. I can assure you that DOTA has a much more varied array of hero choices and strategies (lane set-ups) utilised at all levels of play. That's not to say all heroes in the game are 100% viable, but I would dare say at least 90% is. The day the same can be said for NS2's tech path will be a great day for comp and competitive play alike, but right now that's simply not the case.
I see almost all marine teams rush PG, never mind that they were even given sprint in NS 2, so one would argue that they need it less than they did in NS1. Hopefully with useful sentries, at least in pub play, that will mix some things up, but PGs will remain the cornerstone of any marine strategy, and I personally think that's unfortunate. With aliens the situation is even more dire, almost all teams instantly drop the second hive, simply because 1 hive aliens are not viable. They then proceed to get crag and shift (shade is pretty much entirely absent in both comp and pub play alike) and an onos egg, which is usually the only thing that really stops the marine domination up to that point. (Since usually the onos egg is there before fades are on the field)
There's a big gap between the start of a game and the time fades and onos come out for aliens, where aliens are simply not competitive when both teams are equally skilled. We even saw this with ARC, who were struggling to hold on on summit vs exertus, until that onos egg came into play.
trying new stuff makes you <b>lose</b>
He could be right though, in a different context. :D
i knew i should of gone with the dirty joke :D
This happens in pub games as well though. And no, not just because competitive players did it. The instant second drop hive has been the prominent alien strategy in pubs for like 1-2 months now.
The only difference between competitive and publics is that competitive players play the most efficient route in the game to achieve a win, and if that win is the result of the same route every game, then the game is not balanced properly.
The reason certain strategies make it into public games is because it filters down from the competitive community.
Look at CS for example, flash spots, sniper spots, etc.. all roll down from competitive.
Public play is just a less organised and thus longer version of the game than competitive, so please don't make the mistake of thinking that balancing based on how things occur in competitive matches are somehow 'less fun' or 'not suitable' for publics.
All that is happening is that the game is being balanced properly.
But fast hive is a must have on a 20slot server.
I'll also agree with the above... a single quick onos egg in a 12v12 doesn't seem viable if weapons 1 is online.
<b>Should have</b>. Your wrong.
You're wrong.
Edit: Sorry I couldn't help myself.
I'd love to see you lead a pub team against Archaea, I really would. They don't know the game inside and out, but clans are still at the top of this understanding.
Clans tend to experiment more, so if someone started using the ARCs that have become a lot cheaper to beat off a clan like ARC then people will see the value and begin to use them more.
Player count is not a public game thing, it is just a numbers thing. You can still play competitive 10v10.
The issue comes with how things stack, like grenades, etc... it is that sort of thing that needs to be addressed for higher player counts.
Ideally you would have units that don't stack, like crags, grenades, etc.