Why being Comm is no fun
statikg
Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
So I've noticed in pub play recently that there is often a serious lack of players that want to command. Usually someone will suck it up and do it, but it is very telling as to the state of the strategy aspect of NS2 that someone has to be basically FORCED to command. In NS1, commanding was basically all I wanted to do as marine and it was really really fun. So why does it suck so bad now?
I would suggest it is becasue of a focus on gameplay away from strategy and towards combat which has resulted in nearly no options for the commander of either side.
<b>1) Size of the map, speed of marines.</b>
Smaller maps with faster marines have resulted in a great reduction in strategy. There is no decision now about what rts you can hold, you just take all the rts you can get except for the very cloest to the aliens and maybe even those. If your marines are on top of their game they will just run to rts to save them as required and the distance/speed is such that this can work just fine.
<b>2) Importance of locations other then hives</b>
In NS1 rushing and taking the double was a really awesome strategy that was really rewarding in terms of payoff throughout the game. Now because its so easy to hold RTs in general, it doesnt really matter if you grab the double, as long as you don't let the aliens hold it all game because you can just get and hold a bunch of other RTs.
<b>2.1) Reduced Effectiveness of ARCs</b>
It used to be that there were awesome locations for seiging nearly every hive. This made these positions, REALLY important, and there was alot of tenseness to getting up a phase gate and turrets in one. I remember one map, can't recall the name, where there was a big opening in one of the vents were you could set up a whole base, and that led to some awesome fights. There used to almost always be a big open nook somewhere near the hive where you could defend fairly well. Now because of crappy turrets (increased effective cost of arcs since u dont have a robotics factory), uselessly short ARC range and just a lack of good seige locations there are basically none. You almost have to be in the hive (or in a tniy cramped marine deathzone corridor) to set up Arcs in most places, and as commander I feel like there is no space making ARCs super awkward and too expensive to bother with. Since you can't siege hives effectively, you can only pursue strategies which make your marines stronger and able to walk in and kill the hive. Sure you can get up a phase gate, but its much less urgent for the aliens to stop this from happening because it is simply much easier for them to defend against then a seige position. The cost reduction for ARCs while I feel a step in the right direction, is still not enough due to map design.
<b>3) Introduction of Pres</b>
The investment marines used to have to make into things like SG rushes or outfitting your team with JPs was large, now it is basically nothing. JPs have also been nerfed in mobility and by the removal of HMG. This reduction in cost and effectiveness means that each game is much blander with less variation and less committment required to a given strategy. This also means that the aliens have no method of countering your strategy, since it doesnt even matter if your strategy gets countered when you invested so little into it.
<b>4) Weakening of defensive structures for both sides</b>
The weakening of defensive structures for both teams is pretty much the nail in the coffin of strategy. Hydras are simply awful, and the only reason they are not a joke is the state of the turret. A key aspect of every strategy game is the ability to invest in a static defensive structure which is stronger then an equally valued offensive but mobile investment. A gorge and 3 hydras, a 20res investment, can hold off basically nothing. This just isnt good enough value for res and its hurting ns2s gameplay. A gorge should be able to defend a point against 2-3 marines for at least some period of time. Its OK for people to fight structures as long as there is variety to the game.
<u>What is the result of this?</u>
Basically the result is that there is only one most effective strategy, which is easy to learn and a robot could effectively carry out. Drop RTs like crazy, get phase right away, get upgrades going asap and lockdown the hive positions with phases and mines if you even need mines. Then get a phase close by their second hive and try to kill it with JPs shotguns and gls. Always get JPs first and then get exos second. Avoid spending any res on anything other then phase gates and RTs at the beginning of the game. There is almost no thinking involved except where to place your phase gate for the assault on the second hive, and who to medpack spam the most.
To have a strategy game there has to be tradeoffs. You trade safety for economic/offensive power. You trade early weapon strength against economic power. Because there are no tradeoffs, there is no out strategizing the other side.
Sweeping changes will be needed to map design/marine speed and to turret effectiveness to fix this (to say nothing of the problems with aliens).
Aliens have the exact same problem except caused for different reasons. Essentially the best strategy is to go hive and leap immediately and then get your upgrades and try to hold as many rts as you can until you get higher life forms (or onos rush).
Currently NS2 is a fps that has a resource element, but I would certainly hesitate to call it a FPS-RTS hybrid in its current state, and maybe thats what the devs want, but it makes me sad that now I never want to hop in that command chair anymore.
edit
Since ppl have been responding simply that they do like to comm please add to your reply:
How many times have you comm'd
What percentage on marine games do you comm
Do you feel that you are making any strategic choices when you comm
I would suggest it is becasue of a focus on gameplay away from strategy and towards combat which has resulted in nearly no options for the commander of either side.
<b>1) Size of the map, speed of marines.</b>
Smaller maps with faster marines have resulted in a great reduction in strategy. There is no decision now about what rts you can hold, you just take all the rts you can get except for the very cloest to the aliens and maybe even those. If your marines are on top of their game they will just run to rts to save them as required and the distance/speed is such that this can work just fine.
<b>2) Importance of locations other then hives</b>
In NS1 rushing and taking the double was a really awesome strategy that was really rewarding in terms of payoff throughout the game. Now because its so easy to hold RTs in general, it doesnt really matter if you grab the double, as long as you don't let the aliens hold it all game because you can just get and hold a bunch of other RTs.
<b>2.1) Reduced Effectiveness of ARCs</b>
It used to be that there were awesome locations for seiging nearly every hive. This made these positions, REALLY important, and there was alot of tenseness to getting up a phase gate and turrets in one. I remember one map, can't recall the name, where there was a big opening in one of the vents were you could set up a whole base, and that led to some awesome fights. There used to almost always be a big open nook somewhere near the hive where you could defend fairly well. Now because of crappy turrets (increased effective cost of arcs since u dont have a robotics factory), uselessly short ARC range and just a lack of good seige locations there are basically none. You almost have to be in the hive (or in a tniy cramped marine deathzone corridor) to set up Arcs in most places, and as commander I feel like there is no space making ARCs super awkward and too expensive to bother with. Since you can't siege hives effectively, you can only pursue strategies which make your marines stronger and able to walk in and kill the hive. Sure you can get up a phase gate, but its much less urgent for the aliens to stop this from happening because it is simply much easier for them to defend against then a seige position. The cost reduction for ARCs while I feel a step in the right direction, is still not enough due to map design.
<b>3) Introduction of Pres</b>
The investment marines used to have to make into things like SG rushes or outfitting your team with JPs was large, now it is basically nothing. JPs have also been nerfed in mobility and by the removal of HMG. This reduction in cost and effectiveness means that each game is much blander with less variation and less committment required to a given strategy. This also means that the aliens have no method of countering your strategy, since it doesnt even matter if your strategy gets countered when you invested so little into it.
<b>4) Weakening of defensive structures for both sides</b>
The weakening of defensive structures for both teams is pretty much the nail in the coffin of strategy. Hydras are simply awful, and the only reason they are not a joke is the state of the turret. A key aspect of every strategy game is the ability to invest in a static defensive structure which is stronger then an equally valued offensive but mobile investment. A gorge and 3 hydras, a 20res investment, can hold off basically nothing. This just isnt good enough value for res and its hurting ns2s gameplay. A gorge should be able to defend a point against 2-3 marines for at least some period of time. Its OK for people to fight structures as long as there is variety to the game.
<u>What is the result of this?</u>
Basically the result is that there is only one most effective strategy, which is easy to learn and a robot could effectively carry out. Drop RTs like crazy, get phase right away, get upgrades going asap and lockdown the hive positions with phases and mines if you even need mines. Then get a phase close by their second hive and try to kill it with JPs shotguns and gls. Always get JPs first and then get exos second. Avoid spending any res on anything other then phase gates and RTs at the beginning of the game. There is almost no thinking involved except where to place your phase gate for the assault on the second hive, and who to medpack spam the most.
To have a strategy game there has to be tradeoffs. You trade safety for economic/offensive power. You trade early weapon strength against economic power. Because there are no tradeoffs, there is no out strategizing the other side.
Sweeping changes will be needed to map design/marine speed and to turret effectiveness to fix this (to say nothing of the problems with aliens).
Aliens have the exact same problem except caused for different reasons. Essentially the best strategy is to go hive and leap immediately and then get your upgrades and try to hold as many rts as you can until you get higher life forms (or onos rush).
Currently NS2 is a fps that has a resource element, but I would certainly hesitate to call it a FPS-RTS hybrid in its current state, and maybe thats what the devs want, but it makes me sad that now I never want to hop in that command chair anymore.
edit
Since ppl have been responding simply that they do like to comm please add to your reply:
How many times have you comm'd
What percentage on marine games do you comm
Do you feel that you are making any strategic choices when you comm
Comments
Plenty of people alien side who wanna comm, no problem there.
Lack of comms on marine side, and no wonder - there's alot to learn and even after you learn it all there's some lone marine going on about the injustice of not receiving a medpack.
I think it will improve over time. More xp = More willing comms.
Marines will always get that fast obs and phase tech, aliens will almost always drop a fast second hive or go for shift and then hive. In NS 1, often phase tech wasn't a given early on at the game, some marine commanders preferred to throw down turrets to maintain map control, where as others may opt for a relocate to a better position that puts them closer to the important RT areas. Turrets are hopefully coming back, but I don't foresee that changing the PG metagame as long as relocating is not added back in as a viable alternative. Supposedly, with smaller maps, you would think there is not so big of a need for phase tech, but given the relatively low cost and high pay-off for this tech, you'd have to be a fool not to get it asap. (So one could argue that phase tech in general is probably just too cheap as well)
The p.res addition definitely also affects the marine commander's control over his team, you can no longer entirely dictate what load-out your team is going for at a given time, as players just mix and match as options become available. And while this arguably benefits the FPS experience, in non-organised play it effectively harms the commander's role on a strategic level.
For alien commanders I feel that the T1 hive gameplay is incredibly lacklustre, pretty much forcing the khammander into getting a second hive up ASAP if his team wants to stand a chance in the midgame. Not to mention that some of the hive choices are clearly better than others so some serious balancing is still needed there.
Can you elaborate more onto what needs to be changed with map design?
I would suggest it is becasue of a focus on gameplay away from strategy and towards combat which has resulted in nearly no options for the commander of either side.
<b>1) Size of the map, speed of marines.</b>
Smaller maps with faster marines have resulted in a great reduction in strategy. There is no decision now about what rts you can hold, you just take all the rts you can get except for the very cloest to the aliens and maybe even those. If your marines are on top of their game they will just run to rts to save them as required and the distance/speed is such that this can work just fine.
<b>2) Importance of locations other then hives</b>
In NS1 rushing and taking the double was a really awesome strategy that was really rewarding in terms of payoff throughout the game. Now because its so easy to hold RTs in general, it doesnt really matter if you grab the double, as long as you don't let the aliens hold it all game because you can just get and hold a bunch of other RTs.
<b>2.1) Reduced Effectiveness of ARCs</b>
It used to be that there were awesome locations for seiging nearly every hive. This made these positions, REALLY important, and there was alot of tenseness to getting up a phase gate and turrets in one. I remember one map, can't recall the name, where there was a big opening in one of the vents were you could set up a whole base, and that led to some awesome fights. There used to almost always be a big open nook somewhere near the hive where you could defend fairly well. Now because of crappy turrets (increased effective cost of arcs since u dont have a robotics factory), uselessly short ARC range and just a lack of good seige locations there are basically none. You almost have to be in the hive (or in a tniy cramped marine deathzone corridor) to set up Arcs in most places, and as commander I feel like there is no space making ARCs super awkward and too expensive to bother with. Since you can't siege hives effectively, you can only pursue strategies which make your marines stronger and able to walk in and kill the hive. Sure you can get up a phase gate, but its much less urgent for the aliens to stop this from happening because it is simply much easier for them to defend against then a seige position. The cost reduction for ARCs while I feel a step in the right direction, is still not enough due to map design.
<b>3) Introduction of Pres</b>
The investment marines used to have to make into things like SG rushes or outfitting your team with JPs was large, now it is basically nothing. JPs have also been nerfed in mobility and by the removal of HMG. This reduction in cost and effectiveness means that each game is much blander with less variation and less committment required to a given strategy. This also means that the aliens have no method of countering your strategy, since it doesnt even matter if your strategy gets countered when you invested so little into it.
<b>4) Weakening of defensive structures for both sides</b>
The weakening of defensive structures for both teams is pretty much the nail in the coffin of strategy. Hydras are simply awful, and the only reason they are not a joke is the state of the turret. A key aspect of every strategy game is the ability to invest in a static defensive structure which is stronger then an equally valued offensive but mobile investment. A gorge and 3 hydras, a 20res investment, can hold off basically nothing. This just isnt good enough value for res and its hurting ns2s gameplay. A gorge should be able to defend a point against 2-3 marines for at least some period of time. Its OK for people to fight structures as long as there is variety to the game.
<u>What is the result of this?</u>
Basically the result is that there is only one most effective strategy, which is easy to learn and a robot could effectively carry out. Drop RTs like crazy, get phase right away, get upgrades going asap and lockdown the hive positions with phases and mines if you even need mines. Then get a phase close by their second hive and try to kill it with JPs shotguns and gls. Always get JPs first and then get exos second. Avoid spending any res on anything other then phase gates and RTs at the beginning of the game. There is almost no thinking involved except where to place your phase gate for the assault on the second hive, and who to medpack spam the most.
To have a strategy game there has to be tradeoffs. You trade safety for economic/offensive power. You trade early weapon strength against economic power. Because there are no tradeoffs, there is no out strategizing the other side.
Sweeping changes will be needed to map design/marine speed and to turret effectiveness to fix this (to say nothing of the problems with aliens).
Aliens have the exact same problem except caused for different reasons. Essentially the best strategy is to go hive and leap immediately and then get your upgrades and try to hold as many rts as you can until you get higher life forms (or onos rush).
Currently NS2 is a fps that has a resource element, but I would certainly hesitate to call it a FPS-RTS hybrid in its current state, and maybe thats what the devs want, but it makes me sad that now I never want to hop in that command chair anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
opinion
i love playing com arguably more than player (in ns2 at least, ns1 is fun too but player is just as rewarding).
- Fun = Comming a team of competent and willing to listen to you players
- Not fun = Comming a team of poor and unable or unwilling to listen to you players
You probably don't comm a lot then, most of the problems highlighted here, like for example how shallow the strategic gameplay is, are things you would only notice after many many hours of being a commander. I'm sure commanding can be quite fun if you only do it ever so often, but for very dedicated comm-players it doesn't offer nearly enough depth as it should.
How many times have you comm'd
What percentage of on marine games do you comm
Do you feel that you are making any strategic choices when you comm, and if so what
Also, although a bit less relevant, did you comm extensively in NS1
I agree that strategic depth is quite lacking, but it has nothing to do with map size. Map layout influences tactical options, and has little impact on strategic ones. I can, however, enjoy the commanding experience despite the lack of strategic depth. The fact that a game could be better does not prevent me from enjoying what it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1991879:date=Oct 15 2012, 02:02 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Oct 15 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, well I am interested that many people on here seem to think its fun to comm. If you answered that its fine/fun I am interested to hear a couple of things:
How many times have you comm'd
What percentage of on marine games do you comm
Do you feel that you are making any strategic choices when you comm, and if so what
Also, although a bit less relevant, did you comm extensively in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I don't really feel the compelling need to whip out my e-peen and compare it with everyone else's. I don't agree with your points, I enjoy comming, and that's enough for me.
I feel where you're coming from, and I feel the same way as you in many areas, but this thread is about Why being Comm(sic) is <b>no</b> fun, which I just can't agree with.
That role is filled in NS2 by the Tactician more than the Commander. They are often the same person, but sometimes they aren't. The important directive role in NS2 is in micro-managing your units, telling your team what to build, where to go, and what to buy.
i love playing com arguably more than player (in ns2 at least, ns1 is fun too but player is just as rewarding).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do people say "opinion" as is if instantly invalidates everything sombody says? Almost everything anybody says is a goddamn opinion.
yes but hes stating it as a "goddamn" fact.
thread title is "why being comm is no fun"
/end
all criticized points are worth to mention, but espacially this point weights heavy
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The p.res addition definitely also affects the marine commander's control over his team, you can no longer entirely dictate what load-out your team is going for at a given time, as players just mix and match as options become available. And while this arguably benefits the FPS experience, in non-organised play it effectively harms the commander's role on a strategic level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everytime, when its time for a rush, noone got the res, cause they wasted them earlier, cause everyone wants that ###### gl or sg immediately
one good position is for example ballcourt too locker rooms, north point to tram tunnels, south tunnels too shipping, observation to elevator transfer, tram hub/elevator overlook too transfer
at last every position is "good", as long the arcs dont have to drive right into the hiveroom ...
worst hivelocation for arcing is cargo on veil in my opinion. In ns1 the rines were able to siege the hive from y junction ...
another bad hivelocation is server room, u can siege from elevator overlook, but gorges can heal the hive and bile the arcs nearly at the same time ... thats something, that in my opinion should not happen.
Strange world.
Though i havent gone comm nearly as much as I did in NS1, I have done more than enough on NS2 to notice how lackluster it is in comparison.
Most notably is the style of strategies available in NS2, I have never deviated nor had to, from fast PG then cap and hold res and then hold and secure 2nd TP or go for end game/hive lock down.
While in NS1, as mentioned before, you could go for either fast PG, fast upgrades, relo, 2nd hive lockdown, fast MT, heck even shotgun rush for a possible quick end game. And those are just some of the openings, the mid game progression is even more exciting in NS1.
Not to mention I dont have to be nearly as fast in NS2 as I did in NS1 as a comm. Some might say go play competitive (well i did for NS1 and both game styles were still intense), but NS2 pub comm is a fair breeze, and it seems to quickly get to the stage where you have nothing to do except tell a marine to recap and med/ammo spam other marines on the offensive.
That aside, I dont think my 76 hours of gameplay is enough to give solid input on how to improve the NS2 comm experience.
My 2 cents provided.
Somtimes i ask in mic, "no one wants to comm then" usual replies are nah i suck at comming or its boring.
I think it could be interesting to try and simply just remove PRes for both sides.
It might work since egg dropables are already in.
That would totally fix the tech explosions caused by PRes.
This is slightly less true of the marine commander, but for the most part I feel that marines can also effectively be commanded by an experienced player on the field. They can tell the commander exactly what to do in terms of tech, although it is slightly more difficult to command players since I find the marine team tends to work effectively spread out a little bit more then aliens. Essentially though as a field marine you can just go to the appropriate spots and ask for the phase gates and then go to the appropriate forward position and ask for the phase gate/armory etc.
<b>This should not be possible.</b> The marine commander should be reacting to the alien teams decisions, and executing a unique strategy, not just doing the same thing but making the "tactical decisions" of where to put the forward phase gate.
I'm going to probably piss some people off by saying that either these players who like comming are likely lacking extensive comm experience (dissatisfaction with executing same strategy hasn't set in) or are not very good marines, thus comming allows them to feel they are contributing more strongly. Theres a possibility there are a couple people who just really like to be in control and tell people what to do (venom comes to mind).
Risky tactical decisions are not strong plays in pub commanding so outside of competitive play or stacked teams it is basically never worth it as marines to try something risky. For example, I was set up in ball court and trying to push into generator, my marines couldn't get it done with jps. So I tried beconing everyone back to main and SG rushing tram. Result, whole team died horribly and we lost ballcourt as well.
It would have been much more effective for me to just wait for exos and then use exos to push in from ball court, but I was bored of doing the same thing every game so I tried to make an exciting tactical play.
I'm actually a rts fan . I like commanding and rts games. Still I enjoyed even watching ns2 gameplay videos (i watched them for hours ! ) and it looks pretty nice (at least on the player side) . About your problem , I believe you're pretty right but if I don't remember it wrong , there were 2 map types in ns1 . (something like co_ and ns_) Can't game developers do that for ns2 ? I mean there can be three kind of maps , one for long game play and concenrated on rts facts .Second is a fast player based map kind (like old co_) . And third is a balanced map like the ones I watched.
What changes can be made to make these map types different ? (I know you already said some of them :) )
For RTS based maps ;
- Bigger Maps
- Stronger Defensive Structures ( which I believe too important ! )
- Maybe even some changes in unit skills / health / armor
For example : Onos can be more structure crushing class with even slower movement , better armor against defence structure attacks worse against player attacks , higher hp etc .
- Destroying structures , completing your commanders orders should be rewarded with score points , personal resources etc .
- If player goes alone , doesn't listen to his/her commander , with 95% chance he should die :) I hope you get what I mean.
- Holding resource points should be much more rewarding.
For example : Resource towers should produce x2 or x3 of normal resource rate but should be harder to build . (should be more expansive and need more time to build)
I believe rts lovers can add many other things to this list.
For Balanced Maps :
I believe almost everyhing is great now . (as far as I can see in the videos)
For FPS Based Maps :
Killing = Resource = More Power , i believe it's simple :) just like co_ maps .
Maybe it can be like this , an automated commander (bot) can take the resources points etc. There will be no player commander . If team is succesful and captured an area , buildings automatically builds on that area.
For example : In each area there should be two objectives for both sides , marines can try to build a small command station (only to gain control of that area) and aliens can try to take down power nod (of course a more powerful nod than usual) or they can try to build a building that infestates the area .
I believe this is a great way to improve the game . Some facts can already be in game , as I said I DON'T HAVE A COPY OF NS2 . I can only hope that ( as I'm planning to buy ns2 ) game developers won't get greedy and sell all these as mods , map packs etc and instead , give them for free.