RFK as an upgrade option for aliens, say, as a third defence chamber option. I think that would be interesting.
I'd say no to RFK for marines. The ability to recycle weapons makes up for this.
Alien teleport would be good. I'd really like to see the ability to choose an egg, or at least an egg cluster when spawning, like from the top-down perspective. Alien teleport using that mechanism would be great too. Having to use an egg at that hive would act as part of the cool down so that it isn't too powerful (marines that kill all the eggs are rewarded by not having a swarm of aliens teleport in.)
Okay fine, a hive tele could be useful, but it would have to be done differently than marine tele.
My main point of opposition here is that aliens are given faster move speed partly so that they can form rushes easier (same reason the alien spawn was switched to waves a few builds ago). Faster to regroup, faster to attack, faster to defend. Marine beacon is the counter to this. Giving a straight-up phase option to aliens them the benefits of the marine movement system as well as theirs.
If their ability to tele were destroyed, it wouldn't be an emergency like it would be for the marines. Some of you have argued that celerity isn't that useful for traveling great distances, but imagine how it is for marines, who must leg it if their phases go down.
The point is losing a tele would be a bigger deal for marines than aliens. Contrary to what some of you might think, I do believe aliens are under powered. MAYBE if the mechanic was modified I might support it. Anyone have any ideas?
One thing to consider with regards to teleporting is presence. If marines want a phase gate somewhere, their needs to be no infestation, and there needs to be at least one marine their to build it. Marines must first have presence in an area before they can teleport there, which means you can stop them.
For aliens to teleport somewhere, they wouldn't need any presence. The hive can be dropped and grown without anyone even being in the room, making it, in a sense, unstoppable. I'm looking at this from the perspective that teleporting to an unbuilt hive would not be possible, but lets be honest. If that element of it was removed, there would undoubtedly be people complaining that its not the way it was implemented in NS1, and that it should be brought back and that UWE are noobs who need to play competitively etc etc. Imagine an instantly droppable hive which you can teleport to right away, and you don't even need anyone near it to begin with.
<!--quoteo(post=1991563:date=Oct 14 2012, 07:25 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 14 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing to consider with regards to teleporting is presence. If marines want a phase gate somewhere, their needs to be no infestation, and there needs to be at least one marine their to build it. Marines must first have presence in an area before they can teleport there, which means you can stop them.
For aliens to teleport somewhere, they wouldn't need any presence. The hive can be dropped and grown without anyone even being in the room, making it, in a sense, unstoppable. I'm looking at this from the perspective that teleporting to an unbuilt hive would not be possible, but lets be honest. If that element of it was removed, there would undoubtedly be people complaining that its not the way it was implemented in NS1, and that it should be brought back and that UWE are noobs who need to play competitively etc etc. Imagine an instantly droppable hive which you can teleport to right away, and you don't even need anyone near it to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IF aliens do get some kind of teleporter, it needs to be different than the marine phase gate. Otherwise aliens can jump from place to place AND can move fast. They wouldn't even need to worry about power loss like marines do.
However, if they can only be placed on infestation (like all alien structures) it might be used more in defensive play than offensive which may smooth some balance out. I think it still should have some twist on it though. Another limitation.
Not sure how this might be implemented, but this must be handled with care. If not, it could introduce an unneeded variable instead of balancing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1991566:date=Oct 15 2012, 07:34 AM:name=sushia11)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sushia11 @ Oct 15 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IF aliens do get some kind of teleporter, it needs to be different than the marine phase gate. Otherwise aliens can jump from place to place AND can move fast. They wouldn't even need to worry about power loss like marines do.
However, if they can only be placed on infestation (like all alien structures) it might be used more in defensive play than offensive which may smooth some balance out. I think it still should have some twist on it though. Another limitation.
Not sure how this might be implemented, but this must be handled with care. If not, it could introduce an unneeded variable instead of balancing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose the simplest solution would be for aliens to "re enter" the hive, effectively dying, though without the nasty consequences like a death being recorded, or losing their current life form. They would then respawn, as they were before they re entered the hive. This would of course require some form of choice of where you spawn.
I dislike the idea of choosing your egg via the top down view, because this breaks perspective. However, it would be nice if the commander could select a primary structure, like in the C&C games for example. If a specific hive was selected as a primary structure, all eggs around it would be prioritized as first location spawn points. The same goes for a shift. This ability should be toggle-able so that prioritization can be turned off, for random spawns.
<!--quoteo(post=1991567:date=Oct 14 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 14 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose the simplest solution would be for aliens to "re enter" the hive, effectively dying, though without the nasty consequences like a death being recorded, or losing their current life form. They would then respawn, as they were before they re entered the hive. This would of course require some form of choice of where you spawn.
I dislike the idea of choosing your egg via the top down view, because this breaks perspective. However, it would be nice if the commander could select a primary structure, like in the C&C games for example. If a specific hive was selected as a primary structure, all eggs around it would be prioritized as first location spawn points. The same goes for a shift. This ability should be toggle-able so that prioritization can be turned off, for random spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose this could work. It would be like a beacon except people get to choose if they tele or not, so that an onos isn't suddenly lying out to dry.
The more I think about this plan, the more I like it. The aliens would have to withdraw their forces to a hive, and would even get to use their speed evos to get there. And once they kill themselves... the marines will know where you will spawn and can still destroy the eggs. It gives fast response but also carries heavy risk.
This keeps speed upgrades useful because the aliens will still have to travel to a hive. The alien might even choose to go the old-fashioned way instead of sacrificing themselves.
I'm not certain whether or not this should be researchable, or if any other limitation should be placed (such as it only being available at 3 hives).
<!--quoteo(post=1991518:date=Oct 14 2012, 07:25 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Oct 14 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 pres per kill. ONE PERSONAL RESOURCE. ONE.
Doesn't do diddly squat. Even if someone has 20 kills more than others (which would be INSANE) that'd only give him one shotgun as marine (big deal) or a couple minutes quicker Fade (something, but hardly gamebreaking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it will solve issues of techplosions and give incentive to be competent and get equipment/lifeforms quicker. Win-win!
<!--quoteo(post=1991571:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:16 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 15 2012, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And it will solve issues of techplosions and give incentive to be competent and get equipment/lifeforms quicker. Win-win!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You also need to worry about average kills per minute, overall and for each lifeform. If RPK is implemented, the current passive generation rate will obviously need to be reduced, relative to the predicted average res gained over time. For classes like the gorge, whose average KPM is far lower than the other classes, this would leave them in a worse off position. Do we really want to punish people for going Gorge? People who are already having to spend resources "for the team" as it were?
Not to mention, nothing says "fun" like a skilled player going 2 min Fade and single-handedly winning the game for his team by murdering every single A0/W0 marine in the pub. After another two minutes of that, he could probably go Onos and win the game before Marines ever get an AA.
RFK just snowballs good players into perpetual win-machines and makes bad players be of more use to the enemy team than their own. It had its place in NS1, but as we can plainly see, this is not NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1991529:date=Oct 15 2012, 05:54 AM:name=BigD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigD @ Oct 15 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK as an upgrade option for aliens, say, as a third defence chamber option. I think that would be interesting.
I'd say no to RFK for marines. The ability to recycle weapons makes up for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having this as an upgrade sounds like a good idea, if it's made so that it's actually worth getting.
Maybe it could work like this: as an alien with the upgrade you would be able to siphon off a certain percentage of the resources spent on the equipment of the player who you killed.
It would help with the bad scaling of skulks in the later stages of the game if you'd be greatly rewarded for getting a lucky exo kill for example. This would tremendously help with the lack of meaningfulness and fun in being a skulk in the late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1991333:date=Oct 14 2012, 01:42 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Oct 14 2012, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The funny thing is since maps are smaller in NS2, celerity was introduced at the current speeds for this role. But even on smaller maps like Summit and Tram this is not as effective as beacon and PG's. And Veil has basically proven that a faster and more effective way is indeed quite needed. I would love to see a "feature*" for the George to place nodes inside infestation to link certain areas to each other (instant travel). Basically make it look like a random doodad to have it blend into the environment on infestation. And of course it should be possible to damage/destroy/disable
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>*game is feature locked</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kouji, wasnt this a plan at some point? I swear it was
Let me clear something with hive teleport and restrictions.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens are completely useless with only one hive<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> as soon as marines teched 3-4 things. Lerk has no spores, skulk no leap, fade no blink and they have only one upgrade.
The second hive is twice as important for aliens than the second cc is for marines.
If you implement restricted hive teleport (egg spawning, whatever), you just don't have to do it at all. The bad idea about egg spawning is, that marines kill all eggs in a hive anyways, when they rush it. The hive is so important that aliens need to get the hive teleport from NS1 that always worked, was hell of a fun and....yawwnn.....is NOT euqual to PG or beacon.
<!--quoteo(post=1991636:date=Oct 15 2012, 01:01 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Oct 15 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hive is so important that aliens need to get the hive teleport from NS1 that always worked, was hell of a fun and....yawwnn.....is NOT euqual to PG or beacon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what is your solution to the problem I stated earlier? The current situation allows a commander to drop any hive anywhere he wants, provided it is not already capped. Being able to teleport anywhere without even needing a player in the location before hand is a little broken don't you think?
<!--quoteo(post=1991580:date=Oct 15 2012, 07:48 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 15 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention, nothing says "fun" like a skilled player going 2 min Fade and single-handedly winning the game for his team by murdering every single A0/W0 marine in the pub. After another two minutes of that, he could probably go Onos and win the game before Marines ever get an AA.
RFK just snowballs good players into perpetual win-machines and makes bad players be of more use to the enemy team than their own. It had its place in NS1, but as we can plainly see, this is not NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not NS1, but this is an FPS with buyable equipment and lifeforms. And who sais that RFK should allow a fade after 2 minutes?
<!--quoteo(post=1991637:date=Oct 15 2012, 12:06 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 15 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what is your solution to the problem I stated earlier? The current situation allows a commander to drop any hive anywhere he wants, provided it is not already capped. Being able to teleport anywhere without even needing a player in the location before hand is a little broken don't you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you could only teleport to unbuilt hives when they are either attacked or someone presses 'E' at it? :D
It's probably easy to forget that it wasn't always in NS1 and was implemented for a reason.
Originally +use on movement chambers would teleport you back to the furthest fully grown hive or a hive under attack and it really useless. However, in organised games with friendly fire on, the aliens would bite the hive and be able to teleport through prior to marine attacks and create ambushes rather than having to attack into a defensive set of marines.
Basically: No hive teleport = marines have the defender's advantage <i>while attacking the alien's base</i>. That's completely bonkers.
First of all, I would not like to see hive teleportation in the game for two reasons: 1) I like the fact aliens can't really build a hive on other side of the map in aim of keeping it alive whole game. On the other hand this would help defending both hives from marines who have built pg between the hives. 2) the ns1 hive teleportation would be only (free) downscaled version of marine teleport.
That being said, here are couple of independent thoughts of the matter:
- Hiveteleportation should not be that much faster than walking so it does not obsolete celerity. You are already provided 100% safe passage to other hive. I would see this more like a tunnel network than teleport.
- Celerity: It does not work atm as it should. Travel times between hives are still too slow.
- Hypermutation: I could see aliens using hypermutation (near a hive) to gestate back to egg (die) creating one egg to current hive and spawning on next (as a skulk with refunded pres)
- I don't think higher lifeforms should be endangered with this method.
RFK should definitely make comeback or increasing start pres back to 25 would make lerks more usable before late midgame.
Unfortunately celerity is not a solution for Aliens to be able to respond to attacks, why ? Simple, celerity is not the only option (unless something has changed in last few builds) so not everyone selects celerity for every lifeform. You may say thats thier choice, but it is on par with say forcing the commander to take shotguns instead of beacons, or no JPs if you go PG's.
The orginal idea that the devs had was a form of the SC Nydus tunnel, including traveltime while in the tunnel... a image over the screen of some internal intestime image while you press the forward button, it differs from a PG as its no instant and can only be built on infestation (and I think the tunnels only linked in pairs).
R4K has a distinctly nasty drawback in that it introduces 'feeding' into the game, where a new player / unskill player is playing so badly as to feed the enemy kills and thus pRes.
<!--quoteo(post=1991665:date=Oct 15 2012, 03:45 PM:name=vartija)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vartija @ Oct 15 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, I would not like to see hive teleportation in the game for two reasons: 1) I like the fact aliens can't really build a hive on other side of the map in aim of keeping it alive whole game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Another point would be that the teleportation would make the good strategic choice of capturing a tech point between the hives obsolete. Instead of implementing hive teleportation the problem should be tackled earlier in the gameplay. That is, making the actual capturing harder to give the aliens a better chance and more time to gather their defences.
Maybe make it harder to build and defend phase gates far away from a base: The further the phase gates are separated, the longer the interval at which the marines can phase in. Also I think that getting a phase gate up as it is now is way too quick. I've seen many occasions with aliens trying their best to take a phase gate down, and when they finally succeed, a lone marine can rebuild it faster than they can regroup.
Something like this would be of course quite a big change to the gameplay dynamics and will probably not be implemented, but at least there's some food for thought.
it seems some people in this thread have no idea what hive teleport actually is ... so i bring you ...
HIVE TELEPORT EXPLAINED FOR DUMMIES !
ok so imagine if a phase gate went out on a date with an observatory and had a little too much to drink that night ..... 9 months later a new structure is born !!!!
aka. The Movement chamber of NS1
This is a structure that was dropped by the gorge anywhere on the map A Fellow alien could press use on this structure and it would teleport him to the nearest hive Once at the hive, perhaps there was another movement chamber at that hive ... this would teleport him to the next nearest hive when used, and so on.
Essentially when used at hives it almost becomes a phase gate thats limited to tech points. And when used away from hive its like a personal Beacon.
Now that thats explained, i think hive teleport is needed, but it would have to cost personal res to use seeing as marines need 2 phase gates (30 res) and obs (15res) and beacon (10res) its only fair that a movement chamber that costs (10-20 res ?) cost res to use. That way its phase gate like ability at hives would cost aliens that used it simply to move around easier, yet it would still be of use in an emergency like a beacon would.
<!--quoteo(post=1991685:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:28 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Oct 15 2012, 08:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ut it would have to cost personal res to use seeing as marines need 2 phase gates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because it would just be a phase gate between hives then and a free beacon ? If your so baffeled by this .... then is marine beacon costing 10 res not ok with you ?
The whole point of this thread is that aliens need to get to hive fast and defend the hive structures, the reason the MC isnt in ns2 is because people such as yourself that say "but why" would use it as a phase gate to move around quicker.
<!--quoteo(post=1991616:date=Oct 15 2012, 04:52 AM:name=Reubot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Reubot @ Oct 15 2012, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having this as an upgrade sounds like a good idea, if it's made so that it's actually worth getting.
Maybe it could work like this: as an alien with the upgrade you would be able to siphon off a certain percentage of the resources spent on the equipment of the player who you killed.
It would help with the bad scaling of skulks in the later stages of the game if you'd be greatly rewarded for getting a lucky exo kill for example. This would tremendously help with the lack of meaningfulness and fun in being a skulk in the late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Building on this idea, I would go one step further and say that this shouldn't even be an upgrade. If it was up to me, the RFK system would look something like the following:
(RFK #s are arbitrary)
Marines:
5 kill streak on skulks = N RFK fade kill = N RFK onos kill = 2*N RFK
Aliens:
5 kill streak on Armor 0-1 marines = N RFK kill on Armor 2-3 marine = N RFK fade/onos kill on jetpack = N RFK fade/onos kill on exo = N RFK skulk kill on jetpack = 2*N RFK skulk kill on exo = 2*N RFK
<!--quoteo(post=1991685:date=Oct 15 2012, 09:28 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Oct 15 2012, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its only fair that a movement chamber that costs (10-20 res ?) cost res to use. That way its phase gate like ability at hives would cost aliens that used it simply to move around easier, yet it would still be of use in an emergency like a beacon would.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hold on a second....10-20 PERSONAL RES? Well then, I will <u>never</u><u></u> use the movement chamber then. Way too expensive.
*EDIT Ahh, building it would be 10-20 res, and it would just cost "x" res to use. Understood.
<!--quoteo(post=1991721:date=Oct 15 2012, 04:23 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Oct 15 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kind of pointless discussing this as the beta is now feature locked :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ye, no point in changing anything if the game isn't in beta anymore. Guess we are stuck with NS2 the way it is now, forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1991642:date=Oct 15 2012, 11:26 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Oct 15 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically: No hive teleport = marines have the defender's advantage <i>while attacking the alien's base</i>. That's completely bonkers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah.
I think it's quite likely the marines will find big time openings to abuse the weaknesses and inflexibility of alien play and it's going to heavily limit the way aliens approach their game and probably also going to limit the way marines can be developed in the future.
I do definitely see some interesting potential in denying aliens the teleport, but I don't know if it's all the trouble and limitations it's going to cause. To me this seems like one of the things I might slip in to allow more asymmetry and design freedom on other areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1991694:date=Oct 15 2012, 08:46 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Oct 15 2012, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because it would just be a phase gate between hives then and a free beacon ? If your so baffeled by this .... then is marine beacon costing 10 res not ok with you ?
The whole point of this thread is that aliens need to get to hive fast and defend the hive structures, the reason the MC isnt in ns2 is because people such as yourself that say "but why" would use it as a phase gate to move around quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do aliens need an arbitrary cost placed on their hive movement. it worked fine in ns1 without cost and it would work fine now. and even then how does that fix the stupid people complaining about spending too much time as skulk. youre going to spend even more time as skulk because you dont have pres for kills and youre spending res on simply moving around.. why dont we place a tax on jetpack/exo fuel and as a jp/exo moves around it eats team res.... yes thats a BRILLIANT IDEA!!!!!! :D
<!--quoteo(post=1991723:date=Oct 15 2012, 03:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 15 2012, 03:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ye, no point in changing anything if the game isn't in beta anymore. Guess we are stuck with NS2 the way it is now, forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
does our local troll need to be fed ?
Obviously development will continue (if the game doesnt sell then not for long :P ) But im sure everyone is aware that the beta is feature locked, meaning any MC structure would have to come post 1.0 like everything else.
and whats the point of discussing post 1.0 things now when there are so many other pressing issues, like making aliens less boring ?
Comments
I'd say no to RFK for marines. The ability to recycle weapons makes up for this.
Alien teleport would be good. I'd really like to see the ability to choose an egg, or at least an egg cluster when spawning, like from the top-down perspective. Alien teleport using that mechanism would be great too. Having to use an egg at that hive would act as part of the cool down so that it isn't too powerful (marines that kill all the eggs are rewarded by not having a swarm of aliens teleport in.)
My main point of opposition here is that aliens are given faster move speed partly so that they can form rushes easier (same reason the alien spawn was switched to waves a few builds ago). Faster to regroup, faster to attack, faster to defend. Marine beacon is the counter to this. Giving a straight-up phase option to aliens them the benefits of the marine movement system as well as theirs.
If their ability to tele were destroyed, it wouldn't be an emergency like it would be for the marines. Some of you have argued that celerity isn't that useful for traveling great distances, but imagine how it is for marines, who must leg it if their phases go down.
The point is losing a tele would be a bigger deal for marines than aliens. Contrary to what some of you might think, I do believe aliens are under powered. MAYBE if the mechanic was modified I might support it. Anyone have any ideas?
For aliens to teleport somewhere, they wouldn't need any presence. The hive can be dropped and grown without anyone even being in the room, making it, in a sense, unstoppable. I'm looking at this from the perspective that teleporting to an unbuilt hive would not be possible, but lets be honest. If that element of it was removed, there would undoubtedly be people complaining that its not the way it was implemented in NS1, and that it should be brought back and that UWE are noobs who need to play competitively etc etc. Imagine an instantly droppable hive which you can teleport to right away, and you don't even need anyone near it to begin with.
For aliens to teleport somewhere, they wouldn't need any presence. The hive can be dropped and grown without anyone even being in the room, making it, in a sense, unstoppable. I'm looking at this from the perspective that teleporting to an unbuilt hive would not be possible, but lets be honest. If that element of it was removed, there would undoubtedly be people complaining that its not the way it was implemented in NS1, and that it should be brought back and that UWE are noobs who need to play competitively etc etc. Imagine an instantly droppable hive which you can teleport to right away, and you don't even need anyone near it to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IF aliens do get some kind of teleporter, it needs to be different than the marine phase gate. Otherwise aliens can jump from place to place AND can move fast. They wouldn't even need to worry about power loss like marines do.
However, if they can only be placed on infestation (like all alien structures) it might be used more in defensive play than offensive which may smooth some balance out. I think it still should have some twist on it though. Another limitation.
Not sure how this might be implemented, but this must be handled with care. If not, it could introduce an unneeded variable instead of balancing the game.
However, if they can only be placed on infestation (like all alien structures) it might be used more in defensive play than offensive which may smooth some balance out. I think it still should have some twist on it though. Another limitation.
Not sure how this might be implemented, but this must be handled with care. If not, it could introduce an unneeded variable instead of balancing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose the simplest solution would be for aliens to "re enter" the hive, effectively dying, though without the nasty consequences like a death being recorded, or losing their current life form. They would then respawn, as they were before they re entered the hive. This would of course require some form of choice of where you spawn.
I dislike the idea of choosing your egg via the top down view, because this breaks perspective. However, it would be nice if the commander could select a primary structure, like in the C&C games for example. If a specific hive was selected as a primary structure, all eggs around it would be prioritized as first location spawn points. The same goes for a shift. This ability should be toggle-able so that prioritization can be turned off, for random spawns.
I dislike the idea of choosing your egg via the top down view, because this breaks perspective. However, it would be nice if the commander could select a primary structure, like in the C&C games for example. If a specific hive was selected as a primary structure, all eggs around it would be prioritized as first location spawn points. The same goes for a shift. This ability should be toggle-able so that prioritization can be turned off, for random spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose this could work. It would be like a beacon except people get to choose if they tele or not, so that an onos isn't suddenly lying out to dry.
The more I think about this plan, the more I like it. The aliens would have to withdraw their forces to a hive, and would even get to use their speed evos to get there. And once they kill themselves... the marines will know where you will spawn and can still destroy the eggs. It gives fast response but also carries heavy risk.
This keeps speed upgrades useful because the aliens will still have to travel to a hive. The alien might even choose to go the old-fashioned way instead of sacrificing themselves.
I'm not certain whether or not this should be researchable, or if any other limitation should be placed (such as it only being available at 3 hives).
Doesn't do diddly squat. Even if someone has 20 kills more than others (which would be INSANE) that'd only give him one shotgun as marine (big deal) or a couple minutes quicker Fade (something, but hardly gamebreaking).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it will solve issues of techplosions and give incentive to be competent and get equipment/lifeforms quicker. Win-win!
You also need to worry about average kills per minute, overall and for each lifeform. If RPK is implemented, the current passive generation rate will obviously need to be reduced, relative to the predicted average res gained over time. For classes like the gorge, whose average KPM is far lower than the other classes, this would leave them in a worse off position. Do we really want to punish people for going Gorge? People who are already having to spend resources "for the team" as it were?
RFK just snowballs good players into perpetual win-machines and makes bad players be of more use to the enemy team than their own. It had its place in NS1, but as we can plainly see, this is not NS1.
I'd say no to RFK for marines. The ability to recycle weapons makes up for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having this as an upgrade sounds like a good idea, if it's made so that it's actually worth getting.
Maybe it could work like this: as an alien with the upgrade you would be able to siphon off a certain percentage of the resources spent on the equipment of the player who you killed.
It would help with the bad scaling of skulks in the later stages of the game if you'd be greatly rewarded for getting a lucky exo kill for example. This would tremendously help with the lack of meaningfulness and fun in being a skulk in the late game.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>*game is feature locked</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji, wasnt this a plan at some point? I swear it was
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens are completely useless with only one hive<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> as soon as marines teched 3-4 things.
Lerk has no spores, skulk no leap, fade no blink and they have only one upgrade.
The second hive is twice as important for aliens than the second cc is for marines.
If you implement restricted hive teleport (egg spawning, whatever), you just don't have to do it at all. The bad idea about egg spawning is, that marines kill all eggs in a hive anyways, when they rush it.
The hive is so important that aliens need to get the hive teleport from NS1 that always worked, was hell of a fun and....yawwnn.....is NOT euqual to PG or beacon.
So what is your solution to the problem I stated earlier? The current situation allows a commander to drop any hive anywhere he wants, provided it is not already capped. Being able to teleport anywhere without even needing a player in the location before hand is a little broken don't you think?
RFK just snowballs good players into perpetual win-machines and makes bad players be of more use to the enemy team than their own. It had its place in NS1, but as we can plainly see, this is not NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not NS1, but this is an FPS with buyable equipment and lifeforms.
And who sais that RFK should allow a fade after 2 minutes?
Maybe you could only teleport to unbuilt hives when they are either attacked or someone presses 'E' at it? :D
It's probably easy to forget that it wasn't always in NS1 and was implemented for a reason.
Originally +use on movement chambers would teleport you back to the furthest fully grown hive or a hive under attack and it really useless. However, in organised games with friendly fire on, the aliens would bite the hive and be able to teleport through prior to marine attacks and create ambushes rather than having to attack into a defensive set of marines.
Basically: No hive teleport = marines have the defender's advantage <i>while attacking the alien's base</i>. That's completely bonkers.
That being said, here are couple of independent thoughts of the matter:
- Hiveteleportation should not be that much faster than walking so it does not obsolete celerity. You are already provided 100% safe passage to other hive. I would see this more like a tunnel network than teleport.
- Celerity: It does not work atm as it should. Travel times between hives are still too slow.
- Hypermutation: I could see aliens using hypermutation (near a hive) to gestate back to egg (die) creating one egg to current hive and spawning on next (as a skulk with refunded pres)
- I don't think higher lifeforms should be endangered with this method.
RFK should definitely make comeback or increasing start pres back to 25 would make lerks more usable before late midgame.
Simple, celerity is not the only option (unless something has changed in last few builds) so not everyone selects celerity for every lifeform.
You may say thats thier choice, but it is on par with say forcing the commander to take shotguns instead of beacons, or no JPs if you go PG's.
The orginal idea that the devs had was a form of the SC Nydus tunnel, including traveltime while in the tunnel... a image over the screen of some internal intestime image while you press the forward button, it differs from a PG as its no instant and can only be built on infestation (and I think the tunnels only linked in pairs).
R4K has a distinctly nasty drawback in that it introduces 'feeding' into the game, where a new player / unskill player is playing so badly as to feed the enemy kills and thus pRes.
I agree. Another point would be that the teleportation would make the good strategic choice of capturing a tech point between the hives obsolete. Instead of implementing hive teleportation the problem should be tackled earlier in the gameplay. That is, making the actual capturing harder to give the aliens a better chance and more time to gather their defences.
Maybe make it harder to build and defend phase gates far away from a base:
The further the phase gates are separated, the longer the interval at which the marines can phase in. Also I think that getting a phase gate up as it is now is way too quick. I've seen many occasions with aliens trying their best to take a phase gate down, and when they finally succeed, a lone marine can rebuild it faster than they can regroup.
Something like this would be of course quite a big change to the gameplay dynamics and will probably not be implemented, but at least there's some food for thought.
HIVE TELEPORT EXPLAINED FOR DUMMIES !
ok so imagine if a phase gate went out on a date with an observatory and had a little too much to drink that night ..... 9 months later a new structure is born !!!!
aka. The Movement chamber of NS1
This is a structure that was dropped by the gorge anywhere on the map
A Fellow alien could press use on this structure and it would teleport him to the nearest hive
Once at the hive, perhaps there was another movement chamber at that hive ... this would teleport him to the next nearest hive when used, and so on.
Essentially when used at hives it almost becomes a phase gate thats limited to tech points. And when used away from hive its like a personal Beacon.
Now that thats explained, i think hive teleport is needed, but it would have to cost personal res to use seeing as marines need 2 phase gates (30 res) and obs (15res) and beacon (10res) its only fair that a movement chamber that costs (10-20 res ?) cost res to use. That way its phase gate like ability at hives would cost aliens that used it simply to move around easier, yet it would still be of use in an emergency like a beacon would.
but....
why
why<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because it would just be a phase gate between hives then and a free beacon ? If your so baffeled by this .... then is marine beacon costing 10 res not ok with you ?
The whole point of this thread is that aliens need to get to hive fast and defend the hive structures, the reason the MC isnt in ns2 is because people such as yourself that say "but why" would use it as a phase gate to move around quicker.
Maybe it could work like this: as an alien with the upgrade you would be able to siphon off a certain percentage of the resources spent on the equipment of the player who you killed.
It would help with the bad scaling of skulks in the later stages of the game if you'd be greatly rewarded for getting a lucky exo kill for example. This would tremendously help with the lack of meaningfulness and fun in being a skulk in the late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Building on this idea, I would go one step further and say that this shouldn't even be an upgrade. If it was up to me, the RFK system would look something like the following:
(RFK #s are arbitrary)
Marines:
5 kill streak on skulks = N RFK
fade kill = N RFK
onos kill = 2*N RFK
Aliens:
5 kill streak on Armor 0-1 marines = N RFK
kill on Armor 2-3 marine = N RFK
fade/onos kill on jetpack = N RFK
fade/onos kill on exo = N RFK
skulk kill on jetpack = 2*N RFK
skulk kill on exo = 2*N RFK
High skill should be rewarded.
Hold on a second....10-20 PERSONAL RES? Well then, I will <u>never</u><u></u> use the movement chamber then. Way too expensive.
*EDIT Ahh, building it would be 10-20 res, and it would just cost "x" res to use. Understood.
Ye, no point in changing anything if the game isn't in beta anymore. Guess we are stuck with NS2 the way it is now, forever.
Yeah.
I think it's quite likely the marines will find big time openings to abuse the weaknesses and inflexibility of alien play and it's going to heavily limit the way aliens approach their game and probably also going to limit the way marines can be developed in the future.
I do definitely see some interesting potential in denying aliens the teleport, but I don't know if it's all the trouble and limitations it's going to cause. To me this seems like one of the things I might slip in to allow more asymmetry and design freedom on other areas.
The whole point of this thread is that aliens need to get to hive fast and defend the hive structures, the reason the MC isnt in ns2 is because people such as yourself that say "but why" would use it as a phase gate to move around quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do aliens need an arbitrary cost placed on their hive movement. it worked fine in ns1 without cost and it would work fine now. and even then how does that fix the stupid people complaining about spending too much time as skulk. youre going to spend even more time as skulk because you dont have pres for kills and youre spending res on simply moving around.. why dont we place a tax on jetpack/exo fuel and as a jp/exo moves around it eats team res.... yes thats a BRILLIANT IDEA!!!!!! :D
does our local troll need to be fed ?
Obviously development will continue (if the game doesnt sell then not for long :P ) But im sure everyone is aware that the beta is feature locked, meaning any MC structure would have to come post 1.0 like everything else.
and whats the point of discussing post 1.0 things now when there are so many other pressing issues, like making aliens less boring ?