So is the game very asymmetrical or are aliens not balanced?

FappuchinoFappuchino Join Date: 2012-10-10 Member: 162008Members
So I just watched a match on the NS2 channel between two teams in the tournament, and the superior marines also turned out to be the superior aliens, which was interesting to watch because the style was completely different. They attacked as a horde or took advantage of their sneaky verticality.

Now my question is, how do people in this forum gauge balance? Because if you think aliens aren't up to snuff based on 1 vs 1 situations where aliens are essentially short marines + axe, isn't that kind of uninteresting? Shouldn't a player's timing and use of the map be more of a determinant of an alien's play-style? Two crucial things, which by the way, I can imagine being lost in public play hence all the complaints.

*Should note I haven't played the game, so feel free to berate me on that note, and I apologize if this has been discussed a hundred times.
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Comments

  • antacidantacid Join Date: 2007-08-07 Member: 61821Members, NS2 Playtester
    Please don't actually listen to the forums for balance advice, people only come here to qq or troll.
  • ISpyTyISpyTy Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33705Members
    Well antacid if there's a justifiable reason...
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    The game is very asymmetrical, but aliens are very very weak right now. Marines move faster, hit harder, and have more defensive capabilities than aliens. The problem is that for whatever reason over the past month or two aliens have been getting nerfed every patch and marines have been getting buffed every patch.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1990755:date=Oct 13 2012, 02:58 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Oct 13 2012, 02:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't actually listen to the forums for balance advice, people only come here to qq or troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It might not be what they come here to do but thats what it usually ends up as.

    As for balance, early game favours marines while mid game favours aliens. Late game imo is the most balanced (although it is easier for marines).
  • KopikatKopikat Join Date: 2012-09-06 Member: 158170Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1990763:date=Oct 13 2012, 01:28 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 13 2012, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is very asymmetrical, but aliens are very very weak right now. Marines move faster, hit harder, and have more defensive capabilities than aliens. The problem is that for whatever reason over the past month or two aliens have been getting nerfed every patch and marines have been getting buffed every patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/</a>

    The sample size is small for every patch, but there hasn't been a single patch where the Marines had more wins than the Aliens according to NS2Stats. Not a one. You think there would be some variation, but no.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1990768:date=Oct 13 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 13 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/</a>

    The sample size is small for every patch, but there hasn't been a single patch where the Marines had more wins than the Aliens according to NS2Stats. Not a one. You think there would be some variation, but no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Personally, I'd like to see "minutes spent in winning games" stats. Would be more interesting than number of games won, actually. Short, crappy games shouldn't anyhow.
  • azurescorchazurescorch Join Date: 2012-09-29 Member: 161030Members, Reinforced - Silver
    edited October 2012
    Most people tend to complain when the race they prefer to play as gets nerfed.

    However yes, Aliens do seem very weak right now. I haven't seen a single instance of aliens winning since this latest patch (albeit I haven't had time to play many matches). But my friends do not tell me good things and as of 222 refuse to even play on Aliens.

    <!--quoteo(post=1990769:date=Oct 13 2012, 10:00 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Oct 13 2012, 10:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'd like to see "minutes spent in winning games" stats. Would be more interesting than number of games won, actually. Short, crappy games shouldn't anyhow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is very true. There are many instances of games that last under 5 minutes due to skulk rushing and the marines not being coordinated. Heck I've rushed into the Marine command before they've even had a commander before. Every one just rushed to the nearest extractor point.

    edit: Also I've probably only seen one server running NS2stats, and I've rarely been on it. According to NS2stats I've only ever played 4 rounds, with a total of just under 3hours game time (steam reports 95, although some of that will be the editor).
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    Ns 2 stats is meaningless, also I believe Charlie mentioned the winrate for marines was 50.6% at one point. I think it's definitely bigger if you exclude all the games where aliens win with a simple baserush, which is still one of the most effective ways to win in pubs. (Since usually the marines aren't coordinated enough to respond in time)

    Also, double hive onos egg. I'm sorry but myself and others have been going exclusively for this strategy since it's probably the only viable way to stay in the game as aliens.
    It goes like this: 2 hives ASAP, Onos EGG ASAP -> good chance of winning. Any other strategy is more likely to lose you the game, and truth be told; 2 hive onos egg is pretty broken. It's sad we need to resort to broken strategies as an alien commander to ensure that we can still win games at times.

    Either way, I sincerely hope UWE doesn't fixate too much on these stats and makes a deeper analysis. Many players will agree the balance is off and alien strategic gameplay is incredibly shallow (no real choices) and while I don't think the 222 patch made it 'considerable worse' it didn't do anything to reverse that trend either. I think the new skulk bite isn't that bad for more advanced players, but it's causes a huge accessibility problem for newer ones.

    Here's what I would propose off the top of my head, I can only dream we see this happen one day
    - Smaller skulk model (makes skulk more forgiving to play and will require better aiming for marines, currently it's a breeze to hit dog-size skulks)
    - Better collision models for skulks and marines (This is BIG, marines getting on top of skulk heads and all, makes melee gameplay frustrating)
    - Commander onos egg at 3 hives or higher cost at 2 hives (It would be interesting if all lifeforms can be dropped at any stage but their cost is based on number of hives)
    - FOCUS, please bring this back
    - Better egg spawn rate (This is definitely one of the reasons why alien commanders feel they have to go shift and/or second hive)
    - Better wall jump mechanic, 222 is a step in the right direction but it's not good enough yet.
    - Lerk gas at T1 again (It's incredibly viable in countering early marine rushes and phase tech, but at T2 it just comes into the game too late) Some players argue lerks need spikes to counter shotguns, but I honestly never see lerks do that effectively anyway. Make spikes much better at T2 so aliens can tech it if they want to counter shotguns with lerks...
    - Up the hydra limit or make them a little tankier
    - Make gorge tankier, reduce belly-slide energy cost and/or further lower some of it's energy costz.
    - Give adren a better regeneration rate. (It's not proportional to the larger pool currently, so it's actually somewhat of a debuff, no other upgrade gives debuffs anymore)
  • skjorteNskjorteN Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155548Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1990755:date=Oct 13 2012, 08:58 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Oct 13 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't actually listen to the forums for balance advice, people only come here to qq or troll.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    From the troll himself!
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    aliens just suck atm, they can be fixed up easily whenever the devs decide it's a good idea, imo they should probably do it soon because playing aliens isn't even remotely fun. (especially lerk, which USED TO BE FUN god dammit, in the early beta w/it's armor and the shotgun spikes, dominated w/it)
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1990781:date=Oct 13 2012, 05:51 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Oct 13 2012, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
    - Better collision models for skulks and marines (This is BIG, marines getting on top of skulk heads and all, makes melee gameplay frustrating)
    ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    if you mean with this that marines are able to step over skulks: this is fixed for build 224

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Give adren a better regeneration rate. (It's not proportional to the larger pool currently, so it's actually somewhat of a debuff, no other upgrade gives debuffs anymore)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> so carapace is a debuff as well because it takes you longer to get healed? :) but i wouldnt mind to increase the regen rate a bit (just not twice as much...) together with buffing other upgrades
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    The difference is the commander.


    With a good commander, marines will win most of their games. A good commander for aliens does very little to benefit them.

    In pubs you will see alot of bad commanders and uncoordinated teams, which penalizes marines more.

    In competitive matches, aliens have to stay in a skulk horde to overcome the good marine commanders medpack spam.


    Its hard to balance for both pub and competitive play when the commanders influence in a match is so different. Balancing for pub play has left aliens underpowered in competitive matches.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1990768:date=Oct 13 2012, 09:54 AM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Oct 13 2012, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://ns2stats.org/" target="_blank">http://ns2stats.org/</a>

    The sample size is small for every patch, but there hasn't been a single patch where the Marines had more wins than the Aliens according to NS2Stats. Not a one. You think there would be some variation, but no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That statistic is irrelevant, the amount of games that end after 30 seconds from an alien baserush generally makes up the difference, if you look at the sample size and how many games are in the aliens favour its usually around 20-30. So really is quite a pointless strategy.


    In pubs the difference is the commanders, khamm doesnt really influence fights in the slightest whilst comm can totally save marines etc.
  • DavidhenDavidhen Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162225Members
    Some of the problems i see with aliens are the fact that their life forms are priced generally higher than the marines weapons. The fact that marines can also pick up dropped weapons without spending resources helps a lot. (If you get a lerk for 30 res and die that res is gone. If you buy a GL for 25 (or 35 cant remember) and die you lose it but you can run back and pick it up or another team member can pick it up, thus not really LOSING that res).

    Also when i play as marines i notice i get res much faster regardless of how mant rt's my team controls. I think this is from the fact you get points from killing cysts (2res per kill) and the fact that Alien upgrades are so easy to kill with one or two grenades. This allows for personal resource generation rather quickly. You don't see arms labs being killed frequently through the game (upgrades also do not have to be re-researched as a marine)

    The basic fresh spawned marine also scales as the game goes on. Where as the Skulk does not scale at all (If you want to take cara into account then he does get marginally better but its basically paper armour)

    There are a couple of other things i can think of but will leave them for another time (dont want you to zone out too quickly).

    Basically even if my team is winning as an alien if im unlucky enough to lose a life form it is much harder to get enough res to get it back then it is for a marine to just pick up a GL or Shotgun or even earn enough res to do so.

    All of my views come from playing on public servers, but i feel they are just as valid as a competitive players view, because the player base will come from new players playing on public servers, then progressing to competitive play.

    Also if the aliens are not fun to play or feel much weaker it will lead to marine team stacking which will drive off new players and reduce sales etc. which leads to less money for UWE and less support for this otherwise amazing game.

    /rambleoff
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    I'd be interested to see average K/D per class as a stat. Sometimes aliens will win a round but it will feel like they are losing because they just keep getting fragged over and over.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    One of the biggest things that people see is that a fade costs 50 while a shotgun costs 20

    Just remember: any marine alone against a fade has almost no chance of winning, and generally a fade will get more kills per res spent than a shotgunner, even with guns being recycled

    PS - it was mentioned in another thread to have guns disapear quicker on infestation, and i wholeheartedly agree with this notion
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you mean with this that marines are able to step over skulks: this is fixed for build 224<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is great to hear, thanks!

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so carapace is a debuff as well because it takes you longer to get healed? :) but i wouldnt mind to increase the regen rate a bit (just not twice as much...) together with buffing other upgrades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose that's a good point, but yea, just a little faster regen would already go a long way in making adren more viable. (Double regen rate was broken, I 100% agree on that)

    Oh and I forgot one:
    - Xenocide! Please fix this. It's really a great ability, but I feel that by the time it comes out marines usually have A3 and the ability does in fact become useless. With a more dynamic tech system, where aliens can get T3 abilities at 2 hives and T2 at 1 hive, but at a larger cost and/or research time, we'd not only see the strategic options for khammanders multiply, we'd also have some of these abilities like xenocide actually become useful (since they then an actually be gotten faster, at a time when they might still have a much bigger impact on the game....Same can be said for stomp, by the time you get T3 marines usually have jetpacks and exos)
  • koewikoewi Join Date: 2007-08-25 Member: 61984Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    the most of the people here are complaining about stuff im completly fine with ...
    i just have the feeling, that there is a lack of skill the reason for the complaints ...
    there are some things, that are unbalanced at the moment, but many games from the alienside could be won, if the aliens would play as a team ... running in 1v1 situations as a skulk is something you should loose, if u are not hiding at a ceiling, or atacking from behind or out of a vent ...

    and the talking about alien baserushing the rines and keeping the statistics even with it, is something i can't confirm ...
    i had no single skulkbaserush since 2 to 3 weeks and im playing very much lately ...

    and respective xenocide ... it's kind of a relict, that made it from ns1 to ns2 ... in ns1 it was used to weaken marinebunkers ... but because noone is bunkering and marines can not stay in the game that long anymore, there is no real need of researching it ... if u can get it with a 2nd hive it would be ways too strong
  • rebirthrebirth Join Date: 2007-09-23 Member: 62416Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1990765:date=Oct 13 2012, 09:44 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Oct 13 2012, 09:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for balance, early game favours marines while mid game favours aliens. Late game imo is the most balanced (although it is easier for marines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That describes the problem pretty good, Kharaa have a narrow window of opportunity to turn the round in their favor, if they miss it they end up fighting another uphill battle like early game.


    <!--quoteo(post=1990809:date=Oct 13 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Oct 13 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1990809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so carapace is a debuff as well because it takes you longer to get healed? :) but i wouldnt mind to increase the regen rate a bit (just not twice as much...) together with buffing other upgrades<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Actually carapace on the Onos feels like an debuff, way too much HP/Armor to fill up in relation to the healing output of crags/gorges.
    So you either waste a ton of time running all the way back to a hive or spent an considerable amount of time looking at a gorge blowing you ;)
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Crags just heal too slow, that's a separate issue entirely tbh.
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Members
    i save for onos as aliens every time and just hit and run their less occupied bases. Dont waste res on any other lifeform even fades are weak as piss. Celerity cara onos has pretty good winrate.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you mean with this that marines are able to step over skulks: this is fixed for build 224<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's not just marines that walk over skulks.
    Marines, exos, fades, onos walk over skulks and gorges.
  • kababkabab Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Members, Constellation
    Aliens need to be able to teleport between hives..
  • ChickenOfWarChickenOfWar Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
    I dont know why but even though marines feel overpowered in a build the aliens end up eeking out more victories overall. Win/loss ratio should be almost disregarded when in the early stages of balancing a game.
  • MangoMango Join Date: 2012-10-11 Member: 162061Members
    When I first got this game two years ago. Aliens were the kings pretty much. Everyone to in extent wanted to just be aliens. Now, the tables have turned and it is marines stacking to a epidemic level. They just need to balance it a little more for Aliens and this game will be kicking ass for another 10 years.
  • SherwoodSherwood Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157696Members
    I played 5 straight games as aliens with different teams every time and lost every time with the new patch. I just dunno skulks were feeling pretty good in 221 not too overpowered and not too weak, now they feel too weak again.

    Someone also said they increased the fire rate on lmgs? is that why I feel like a paper skulk now? I noticed right away that I seemed to be dieing much faster as a skulks then normal, and other people noticed it in the server as well it was like a consensus without having to say anything.

    I dunno someone else in this thread said it better, Alien team just got a whole lot less fun with this patch. The few times I played on marine were kind of un notable, as the alien team had one of those wildcard players on it in each occurance. The ones that go 70-4 without breaking a sweat, so it was really hard to tell if marines were op, just right, or too weak. As that particular player was just stomping on every marine that spawned. Then When I finally thought we had an alien match won, inv.joe kills 74 skulks all by himself repeatedly killing 4-6 at once as the team desperately tried to get him out of our base. Or finish off a CC area that we had already won, to which he would single handedly defend against our whole team....

    sigh... This game is impossible to balance... but I can say from my exp with b223 alien side has lost a lot of it's "fun"
  • GirTurkeyGirTurkey Join Date: 2005-03-03 Member: 43040Members
    I just played 3 straight games as the alien commander. We won every game. So clearly aliens are OP, nerf aliens more.

    (See what I did there.)


    Anecdotal evidence is rarely useful.

    Continue to play the game, make the most of it, don't stack teams, continue to try and see what happens.

    If the recent beta cup tourney showed us anything, its that superior players win on both sides, no matter what. There is no automatic wins simply because of sides.
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1991071:date=Oct 13 2012, 09:16 PM:name=GirTurkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GirTurkey @ Oct 13 2012, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just played 3 straight games as the alien commander. We won every game. So clearly aliens are OP, nerf aliens more.

    (See what I did there.)


    Anecdotal evidence is rarely useful.

    Continue to play the game, make the most of it, don't stack teams, continue to try and see what happens.

    If the recent beta cup tourney showed us anything, its that superior players win on both sides, no matter what. There is no automatic wins simply because of sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The difference is your evidence is based from your already decided upon goal of proving the game is balanced, whereas other people are presenting their evidence to back up their general feelings. Did you truely find that the teams were balanced in all 3 games? Did you use the fast hive fast leap, onos strategy every game vs a less experienced marine commander? Did you really feel in your games since the new patch that both teams are even?

    If you really feel its balanced, thats great and you could even be right, but it seems to me that the majority of people are coming down on the opposite side of things from you.

    I can't speak for others but that's how I feel after this patch and I truly don't believe I have an alien bais.
  • SquishyOneSquishyOne Join Date: 2005-01-11 Member: 34963Members
    Without really discussing the balance issue, the question posed is silly. The game can both lack symmetry and balance and furthermore nobody doubts the game is asymmetrical. That tells you nothing about whether the game is balanced or not.
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    skulk and lerk later in the game are still too unforgiving and weak. Early game it seems okay but when you need 4 bites at least, on a marine and he can kill you with like 6 lmg bullets or 80% of a shotgun blast there's a problem.
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