<!--quoteo(post=1989747:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:15 PM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 11 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no, silly, you should not overreact and stop going for sponsors or start cancelling events. There is no point in not doing useful things just because people are ever trying to improve on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hypothetical: Let's say there are 9 EU teams and 9 US teams each playing in a giant tournament. The ultimate goal is threefold: A US regional grand final, an EU regional grand final, and then an EU vs US super-duper-final.
The most awesome format (and the one I dream of being able to do) would appear to be some sort of 'group' system that leads to those finals. E.g. the group rounds knock it down to 4 teams in each region, which then play single elimination to the super-duper-final.
How would this look? How many matches would it be? How would it work? Thoughts?
Whoa, this thread got weird. You guys should really express your opinions less aggressively. Neither side is going to improve by threatening each other.
<!--quoteo(post=1989766:date=Oct 11 2012, 10:34 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Oct 11 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoa, this thread got weird. You guys should really express your opinions less aggressively. Neither side is going to improve by threatening each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what do you reckon chaps, what would that 9 team regional look like? How many matches would need to be played to whittle it to the final 4 for single elimination finals?
Is it even possible with 9? What about if it was 8, or 6?
<!--quoteo(post=1989776:date=Oct 11 2012, 08:42 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Oct 11 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do you reckon chaps, what would that 9 team regional look like? How many matches would need to be played to whittle it to the final 4 for single elimination finals?
Is it even possible with 9? What about if it was 8, or 6?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uneven number of teams causes problems, but lets open the conversation with this:
9 teams from US:
Group A: 4 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 3 matches for each team, 3 rounds of matches, 6 in total Group B: 5 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 4 matches for each team and an empty round for each team, 5 rounds of matches, 10 matches total
Preselected maps for each match-up based on the round of the tournament (so all play Summit for 1st round robin pair-up for instance). Both teams play once as aliens and once as marines, with 1 point awarded for a won game. 2 teams with most points from each group advance to the semi-finals (BO3). A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2. Finals (BO5) and bronze-finals (BO3/BO5), possibly as agreed by clans and BO3 defaulting if not agreed for a longer match.
Number of games: Depending on which group, a team would play 2 games (1 alien, 1 marine) against 3 or 4 opponents. No 3rd games per match. Then cup semifinals BO3 and finals BO5, so in total an absolute maximum of 8+3+5 = 16 games, excluding Grand intercontinental finals of awesomenes!
Grand intercontinental finals of awesome, possibly on another date.
<!--quoteo(post=1989779:date=Oct 12 2012, 03:43 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 12 2012, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uneven number of teams causes problems, but lets open the conversation with this:
9 teams from US:
Group A: 4 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 3 matches for each team, 3 rounds of matches, 6 in total Group B: 5 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 4 matches for each team and an empty round for each team, 5 rounds of matches, 10 matches total
All round robin matches in preselected-per-match-round maps, 2 game-rounds per map with winner taking a point per win
Number of games: Depending on which group, a team would play 2 games (1 alien, 1 marine) against 3 or 4 opponents. No 3rd games per match. Then cup semifinals BO3 and finals BO5, so in total an absolute maximum of 8+3+5 = 16, excluding Grand intercontinental finals of awesomenes!
after these, semifinals with A group highest facing B group second highest and vice versa. Finals. Grand intercontinental finals of awesome, possibly on another date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome breakdown. My brain bows to you - So for EU and US together, assuming an awkward number of teams like 9, it would be about 32 matches total? Do you guys think it would be possible to do ALL the matches, excluding the regional grand finals an intergalactic grand finals, on one weekend? Friday night/ Saturday / Sunday?
<!--quoteo(post=1989785:date=Oct 11 2012, 08:48 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Oct 11 2012, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awesome breakdown. My brain bows to you - So for EU and US together, assuming an awkward number of teams like 9, it would be about 32 matches total? Do you guys think it would be possible to do ALL the matches, excluding the regional grand finals an intergalactic grand finals, on one weekend? Friday night/ Saturday / Sunday?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Round robin groupings of 4+5+4+5 (9 eu, 9 us) will produce: 6 + 8 + 6 + 8 matches -> 18. Then 4 x BO3 semi-final matches, 2 x BO5 final matches and grand finals.
An average round robin round took in Blind's cup something pretty close to an hour. So, all the prelims could be done in one evening, and also possibly the semi-finals, although that is stretching it a bit. The thing with round robins is that you don't need coinflips and you don't need 3rd rounds. The only case where extra rounds are needed is when teams are tied at the end of the round robin pool's games. Then the tie-break is the previous match between the tied teams and if that was tied also, we resort to coin-flips. Since there are less rounds and less hassle, the round robin rounds are actually rather quicker than expected.
So, that would leave only semi-finals and finals and possible grand finals for the Day 2... BO3 + BO5 + Grand finals. Thats maximum 8 games on Day 2 and of course the Grand finals.
This is as long as it is a straightforward:
A(4 teams) + B(5 teams) -> A1 vs B2 + B1 vs A2 -> Semi-finals -> finals C(4 teams) + D(5 teams) -> C1 vs D2 + D1 vs C2 -> Semi-finals -> finals CD winner vs AB winner
If you want to mix AB with CD more, things get complicated ;)
The single/double eliminations force a lot of coin-tosses (due to BO3 and BO5) which is often unfair. This round robin format allows less cointossing and a more accurate selection of semi-finalists. After that it gets a bit more random and a bit more exciting also. So, the early games are a bit lower-risk, lower-gain and every one gets several games and a fair chance at the semi-finals. After that things heat up and the spectators get extra excitement, and we are still in a 2 day tournament format even with 18 clans participating ;)
PS. There is a lot of discussion of this on other threads like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121549" target="_blank">this one here</a> and I'm sure there are some good pointers around somewhere. I just happened to be active on the forum at the right time, so don't just count on me on this ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1989792:date=Oct 12 2012, 03:57 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 12 2012, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An average round robin round took ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweet - There is something very cool coming next Tuesday / Wednesday (The hint is on the ESL facebook page :D) and this is really good info for deciding on the format :)
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1989748:date=Oct 11 2012, 08:15 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Oct 11 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aww I'm sorry to hear that nadyli. Tell me, was it before or after you chose to abuse me on Steam chat that you lost this respect? Did telling me I was doing a ###### job not get the response you wanted? Was it just not enough to put me down in private, you have to come into a public forum and swear at me here as well?
My question (which is honest) stands. If everyone is unhappy with DE tournaments, that is understandable and they don't have to be held. All these other formats are fairer, probably more enjoyable for all of you, and have all sorts of other benefits as you've all pointed out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please PM me if theres a need to talk about this more lengthly. I just want to make it clear I never said you were doing a ###### job and if you get the impression that I'm being an ass or entitled it is not intentional and I apologize for that. But you should also consider you how address the competitive community and stop bullying us with sponsor talks. Anyways I leave it at that, let the thread continue it's original course and I hope we can be friends in near futureâ„¢ again.
<!--quoteo(post=1989757:date=Oct 11 2012, 01:23 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Oct 11 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hypothetical: Let's say there are 9 EU teams and 9 US teams each playing in a giant tournament. The ultimate goal is threefold: A US regional grand final, an EU regional grand final, and then an EU vs US super-duper-final.
The most awesome format (and the one I dream of being able to do) would appear to be some sort of 'group' system that leads to those finals. E.g. the group rounds knock it down to 4 teams in each region, which then play single elimination to the super-duper-final.
How would this look? How many matches would it be? How would it work? Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming you're looking for: 1) Regional RR group stages 2) Regional single elimination bo3-semi-finals and bo5-finals 3) NA-EU bo5 grand finals
*I am defining 1 round = 2 halves (a bo3 would be 1 - 1.5 rounds, aka 2 - 3 halves)
1) I'd move the team count to 8 or 10 per region. Two groups per region, A and B for NA, Y and Z for EU. Teams 1-5 for NA-A, 6-10 for NA-B Teams 11-15 for EU-Y and 16-20 for EU-Z. For NA: <a href="http://imgur.com/a/iGOFK" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/a/iGOFK</a> For EU: The same, just 1 = 11, 2 = 12, etc. <b>***5 rounds*** in time, each team plays 8 halves, 80 halves played for NA + EU combined</b>
2) Top 2 teams from each regional group pulled out of the groups and run single elimination. Let's say teams 1, 2 finished first and second for group A. Teams 6 and 7 finished first and second for group B. Ditto for EU -- 11&12, 16&17. For NA: <a href="http://imgur.com/ljjwW" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/ljjwW</a> For EU: Ditto, just sub in new team names. <b>***2.5-5 rounds*** in time, 14-22 halves played for NA + EU combined</b>
3) The winner from 2)NA vs winner from 2)EU. bo5 grand finals <b>***1.5-2.5 rounds*** in time, 3-5 halves played</b>
Grand total (1 + 2 + 3): <b>9-12.5 rounds in time, 97 - 107 halves played</b>
At ~1 hour per round (as per blind's cup -- 2 halves = 1 round ~= 1 hour) this tournament should run 9 to 12.5 hours of playtime. Giving some leeway, I think the tournament would reasonably conclude in one weekend.
A preliminary framework: Friday - 1) rounds 1-3 (~3 hours) for both NA and EU during their respective time zones. Saturday - 1) rounds 4-5 (~2 hours) for both NA and EU during their respective time zones. Then 2) regional semi finals (~1-1.5 hours) -- total time on Saturday ~3-3.5 hours. Sunday - 2) regional finals (~1.5 - 2.5 hours), a short 20 minute break, and then followed by 3) the regional grand finals (1.5 - 2.5 hours)
I am a little nervous about Sunday as it could be up to 5 hours if all the games go to a fifth game or are unusually long for some reason. Perhaps the regional finals should be bo3 only. I'm not sure, but this would be a good general framework with which to start improving upon.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
<!--quoteo(post=1989589:date=Oct 11 2012, 08:47 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Oct 11 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1989553:date=Oct 11 2012, 05:49 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Oct 11 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1989553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I heard that blind will host another RR tourney with movement mod. Just a rumour though...that I started right now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres no backing now! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
O_O
...wait after 1.0 and I'll hit again for sure ;)
..unless there is already every weekend another tournament as it seems atm :)
Sorry if I am reposting something that was already mentioned here. Didn't read whole topic...
RR is legit for season games within the leagues, not as a single championship or what so ever. 'cos it's more demanding and takes more time overall. Well no one can restrict anyone to host such champ with RR system, but as I said - more demanding, more time, etc.
ENSL always had this system. As an example, last season with 16 total (8 each division) teams took 8 weeks to play. Obviously it was game per week for each team. Why? We were limited with servers to play on and with admins to spectate games.
Ok, lets say you want to host a RR tournament with 16 teams, divided into 2 groups. Let's make it that 4 teams from each group proceed to the DE bracket. So, from the server/time perspective - you must have 8 servers available, in order not to waste time. Otherwise you would end up spending a lot of time waiting for all the games to finish. And that is only the first round. For each group to finish the RR, each team has to play 7 games. That is - 28 matches in each group. 56 total for 2 groups. 56!!! Presume that average time for each game to finish (2 maps - 4 rounds) - 1.2 hour. So it's 33.6 hours total game time to proceed to Finals table. From there, we would need 6 more matches to be played. 6 more hours (if it's not a 2:2 situation on any of the games...). The whole RR tournament would take at least aprox. 40 hours to be played (so we are not accounting the time you have to take to change servers for teams, waiting for players, games lasting longer, etc). And that is only if you had 8 servers. If you had less.... Now, the streaming... Ok, one option is to skip the streaming of the RR games, but why? That would sucks. The other option... You have to have at least 8 streamers. That's possible, but much work has to be done to prepare for that. So the conclusion - the RR would take 40 hours non stop. Possible for gamers and streamers and viewers? Doubt so. Let's spread it into the diff. days. Well, how much free time NS2 gamers and streamers could spend on it? 4hours? 8hours? We are not professional dota2 gamers (or w/e) where you are ready to spend that amount of time on the tournament. Or do we? Ok... last main event there lasted for 6 days, where they had... surprise, surprise - 16 teams! (ok there also was a looser bracket after the prelims(RR) but anyway...). So yeah, we could play all the tourny in 6-10 consecutive days depending on how much time per day we would need to spend on it, but as I said - is everyone up for it? Also, we are talking here about Online tournament, not LAN, right? So... the time zones. Again, that's a vital point in that. Wouldn't you loose participants because of that? Wouldn't you loose viewers?
It's not so 'big' to do such thing yet. I even doubt there is such a good organiser to manage all of it. And the fact that everything is organised online would matter as well. Last thing - money, but I won't go into that topic. Too much points as well.
I hope I've made my point clear here. Feel free to agree/disagree or correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ENSL always had this system. As an example, last season with 16 total (8 each division) teams took 8 weeks to play. Obviously it was game per week for each team. Why? We were limited with servers to play on and with admins to spectate games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd limit round robin groups for tournament purposes to 4-5 teams per group. 8 per group makes for insane amount of games and is not for weekend events!
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, from the server/time perspective - you must have 8 servers available, in order not to waste time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there was ~4 servers used for the last event. This left both Archeas and our servers un-used, so thats at least 2 servers available right there... 8 servers don't seem to be a problem currently, but of course the orgs of current tournaments can say if this is so.
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the streaming... Ok, one option is to skip the streaming of the RR games, but why? That would sucks. The other option... You have to have at least 8 streamers. That's possible, but much work has to be done to prepare for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or then you just pick the matches you want to cast and don't flood the internets with extra streams. 2 streams will be enough and will allow for non-stop coverage of a match or another. Once the end cup starts, you can of course cover the matches more easily.
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yeah, we could play all the tourny in 6-10 consecutive days depending on how much time per day we would need to spend on it, but as I said - is everyone up for it? Also, we are talking here about Online tournament, not LAN, right? So... the time zones. Again, that's a vital point in that. Wouldn't you loose participants because of that? Wouldn't you loose viewers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 teams per RR bracket takes something like 3-4 hours, 6 teams 5-6. Just 1 alien and 1 marine round and count points, next match. Both of these are doable in one evening. That leaves the end cup for the next evening. Once you take into account the single/double elimination Best-Of-3 systems 3rd rounds, you probably do not end up with that much longer tournaments.
So, tl;dr: I think that just by tweaking a few details and thinking the thing through it is pretty easy to avoid most of the problems you pointed out. The advantages of RR are that every team gets 3-5 matches (4 or 6 teams per group) and you still get that exciting end cup. There are less coin tosses and thus less random. You still get to cast matches. Everyone is better off! ;)
Comments
Yup.
Chill out people :D
The most awesome format (and the one I dream of being able to do) would appear to be some sort of 'group' system that leads to those finals. E.g. the group rounds knock it down to 4 teams in each region, which then play single elimination to the super-duper-final.
How would this look? How many matches would it be? How would it work? Thoughts?
Fana you had me in stitches just then :D
I think it should be 8v8, not 9v9. (or 10v10) You want 2 teams playing for the final.
I'm a menace to society.
Calmer than you are.
Is it even possible with 9? What about if it was 8, or 6?
Is it even possible with 9? What about if it was 8, or 6?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uneven number of teams causes problems, but lets open the conversation with this:
9 teams from US:
Group A: 4 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 3 matches for each team, 3 rounds of matches, 6 in total
Group B: 5 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 4 matches for each team and an empty round for each team, 5 rounds of matches, 10 matches total
Preselected maps for each match-up based on the round of the tournament (so all play Summit for 1st round robin pair-up for instance). Both teams play once as aliens and once as marines, with 1 point awarded for a won game. 2 teams with most points from each group advance to the semi-finals (BO3). A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2. Finals (BO5) and bronze-finals (BO3/BO5), possibly as agreed by clans and BO3 defaulting if not agreed for a longer match.
Number of games: Depending on which group, a team would play 2 games (1 alien, 1 marine) against 3 or 4 opponents. No 3rd games per match. Then cup semifinals BO3 and finals BO5, so in total an absolute maximum of 8+3+5 = 16 games, excluding Grand intercontinental finals of awesomenes!
Grand intercontinental finals of awesome, possibly on another date.
9 teams from US:
Group A: 4 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 3 matches for each team, 3 rounds of matches, 6 in total
Group B: 5 team round robin with 2 best advancing = 4 matches for each team and an empty round for each team, 5 rounds of matches, 10 matches total
All round robin matches in preselected-per-match-round maps, 2 game-rounds per map with winner taking a point per win
Number of games: Depending on which group, a team would play 2 games (1 alien, 1 marine) against 3 or 4 opponents. No 3rd games per match. Then cup semifinals BO3 and finals BO5, so in total an absolute maximum of 8+3+5 = 16, excluding Grand intercontinental finals of awesomenes!
after these, semifinals with A group highest facing B group second highest and vice versa. Finals. Grand intercontinental finals of awesome, possibly on another date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Awesome breakdown. My brain bows to you - So for EU and US together, assuming an awkward number of teams like 9, it would be about 32 matches total? Do you guys think it would be possible to do ALL the matches, excluding the regional grand finals an intergalactic grand finals, on one weekend? Friday night/ Saturday / Sunday?
Round robin groupings of 4+5+4+5 (9 eu, 9 us) will produce: 6 + 8 + 6 + 8 matches -> 18. Then 4 x BO3 semi-final matches, 2 x BO5 final matches and grand finals.
An average round robin round took in Blind's cup something pretty close to an hour. So, all the prelims could be done in one evening, and also possibly the semi-finals, although that is stretching it a bit. The thing with round robins is that you don't need coinflips and you don't need 3rd rounds. The only case where extra rounds are needed is when teams are tied at the end of the round robin pool's games. Then the tie-break is the previous match between the tied teams and if that was tied also, we resort to coin-flips. Since there are less rounds and less hassle, the round robin rounds are actually rather quicker than expected.
So, that would leave only semi-finals and finals and possible grand finals for the Day 2... BO3 + BO5 + Grand finals. Thats maximum 8 games on Day 2 and of course the Grand finals.
This is as long as it is a straightforward:
A(4 teams) + B(5 teams) -> A1 vs B2 + B1 vs A2 -> Semi-finals -> finals
C(4 teams) + D(5 teams) -> C1 vs D2 + D1 vs C2 -> Semi-finals -> finals
CD winner vs AB winner
If you want to mix AB with CD more, things get complicated ;)
The single/double eliminations force a lot of coin-tosses (due to BO3 and BO5) which is often unfair. This round robin format allows less cointossing and a more accurate selection of semi-finalists. After that it gets a bit more random and a bit more exciting also. So, the early games are a bit lower-risk, lower-gain and every one gets several games and a fair chance at the semi-finals. After that things heat up and the spectators get extra excitement, and we are still in a 2 day tournament format even with 18 clans participating ;)
PS. There is a lot of discussion of this on other threads like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121549" target="_blank">this one here</a> and I'm sure there are some good pointers around somewhere. I just happened to be active on the forum at the right time, so don't just count on me on this ;)
Sweet - There is something very cool coming next Tuesday / Wednesday (The hint is on the ESL facebook page :D) and this is really good info for deciding on the format :)
My question (which is honest) stands. If everyone is unhappy with DE tournaments, that is understandable and they don't have to be held. All these other formats are fairer, probably more enjoyable for all of you, and have all sorts of other benefits as you've all pointed out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please PM me if theres a need to talk about this more lengthly. I just want to make it clear I never said you were doing a ###### job and if you get the impression that I'm being an ass or entitled it is not intentional and I apologize for that. But you should also consider you how address the competitive community and stop bullying us with sponsor talks. Anyways I leave it at that, let the thread continue it's original course and I hope we can be friends in near futureâ„¢ again.
(edited to uwe reference instead of blizzard one)
The most awesome format (and the one I dream of being able to do) would appear to be some sort of 'group' system that leads to those finals. E.g. the group rounds knock it down to 4 teams in each region, which then play single elimination to the super-duper-final.
How would this look? How many matches would it be? How would it work? Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming you're looking for:
1) Regional RR group stages
2) Regional single elimination bo3-semi-finals and bo5-finals
3) NA-EU bo5 grand finals
*I am defining 1 round = 2 halves
(a bo3 would be 1 - 1.5 rounds, aka 2 - 3 halves)
1) I'd move the team count to 8 or 10 per region.
Two groups per region, A and B for NA, Y and Z for EU.
Teams 1-5 for NA-A, 6-10 for NA-B
Teams 11-15 for EU-Y and 16-20 for EU-Z.
For NA:
<a href="http://imgur.com/a/iGOFK" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/a/iGOFK</a>
For EU: The same, just 1 = 11, 2 = 12, etc.
<b>***5 rounds*** in time, each team plays 8 halves, 80 halves played for NA + EU combined</b>
2) Top 2 teams from each regional group pulled out of the groups and run single elimination.
Let's say teams 1, 2 finished first and second for group A. Teams 6 and 7 finished first and second for group B. Ditto for EU -- 11&12, 16&17.
For NA:
<a href="http://imgur.com/ljjwW" target="_blank">http://imgur.com/ljjwW</a>
For EU: Ditto, just sub in new team names.
<b>***2.5-5 rounds*** in time, 14-22 halves played for NA + EU combined</b>
3) The winner from 2)NA vs winner from 2)EU.
bo5 grand finals
<b>***1.5-2.5 rounds*** in time, 3-5 halves played</b>
Grand total (1 + 2 + 3):
<b>9-12.5 rounds in time, 97 - 107 halves played</b>
At ~1 hour per round (as per blind's cup -- 2 halves = 1 round ~= 1 hour) this tournament should run 9 to 12.5 hours of playtime. Giving some leeway, I think the tournament would reasonably conclude in one weekend.
A preliminary framework:
Friday - 1) rounds 1-3 (~3 hours) for both NA and EU during their respective time zones.
Saturday - 1) rounds 4-5 (~2 hours) for both NA and EU during their respective time zones. Then 2) regional semi finals (~1-1.5 hours) -- total time on Saturday ~3-3.5 hours.
Sunday - 2) regional finals (~1.5 - 2.5 hours), a short 20 minute break, and then followed by 3) the regional grand finals (1.5 - 2.5 hours)
I am a little nervous about Sunday as it could be up to 5 hours if all the games go to a fifth game or are unusually long for some reason. Perhaps the regional finals should be bo3 only. I'm not sure, but this would be a good general framework with which to start improving upon.
I heard that blind will host another RR tourney with movement mod. Just a rumour though...that I started right now...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres no backing now!
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O_O
...wait after 1.0 and I'll hit again for sure ;)
..unless there is already every weekend another tournament as it seems atm :)
Its because top-hat and monocle are missing. :/
RR is legit for season games within the leagues, not as a single championship or what so ever.
'cos it's more demanding and takes more time overall.
Well no one can restrict anyone to host such champ with RR system, but as I said - more demanding, more time, etc.
ENSL always had this system. As an example, last season with 16 total (8 each division) teams took 8 weeks to play. Obviously it was game per week for each team. Why? We were limited with servers to play on and with admins to spectate games.
Ok, lets say you want to host a RR tournament with 16 teams, divided into 2 groups. Let's make it that 4 teams from each group proceed to the DE bracket.
So, from the server/time perspective - you must have 8 servers available, in order not to waste time. Otherwise you would end up spending a lot of time waiting for all the games to finish. And that is only the first round. For each group to finish the RR, each team has to play 7 games. That is - 28 matches in each group. 56 total for 2 groups. 56!!! Presume that average time for each game to finish (2 maps - 4 rounds) - 1.2 hour. So it's 33.6 hours total game time to proceed to Finals table. From there, we would need 6 more matches to be played. 6 more hours (if it's not a 2:2 situation on any of the games...).
The whole RR tournament would take at least aprox. 40 hours to be played (so we are not accounting the time you have to take to change servers for teams, waiting for players, games lasting longer, etc).
And that is only if you had 8 servers. If you had less....
Now, the streaming... Ok, one option is to skip the streaming of the RR games, but why? That would sucks.
The other option... You have to have at least 8 streamers. That's possible, but much work has to be done to prepare for that.
So the conclusion - the RR would take 40 hours non stop. Possible for gamers and streamers and viewers? Doubt so. Let's spread it into the diff. days. Well, how much free time NS2 gamers and streamers could spend on it? 4hours? 8hours? We are not professional dota2 gamers (or w/e) where you are ready to spend that amount of time on the tournament. Or do we? Ok... last main event there lasted for 6 days, where they had... surprise, surprise - 16 teams! (ok there also was a looser bracket after the prelims(RR) but anyway...).
So yeah, we could play all the tourny in 6-10 consecutive days depending on how much time per day we would need to spend on it, but as I said - is everyone up for it? Also, we are talking here about Online tournament, not LAN, right? So... the time zones. Again, that's a vital point in that.
Wouldn't you loose participants because of that? Wouldn't you loose viewers?
It's not so 'big' to do such thing yet. I even doubt there is such a good organiser to manage all of it.
And the fact that everything is organised online would matter as well.
Last thing - money, but I won't go into that topic. Too much points as well.
I hope I've made my point clear here. Feel free to agree/disagree or correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks.
I'd limit round robin groups for tournament purposes to 4-5 teams per group. 8 per group makes for insane amount of games and is not for weekend events!
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, from the server/time perspective - you must have 8 servers available, in order not to waste time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there was ~4 servers used for the last event. This left both Archeas and our servers un-used, so thats at least 2 servers available right there... 8 servers don't seem to be a problem currently, but of course the orgs of current tournaments can say if this is so.
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, the streaming... Ok, one option is to skip the streaming of the RR games, but why? That would sucks.
The other option... You have to have at least 8 streamers. That's possible, but much work has to be done to prepare for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or then you just pick the matches you want to cast and don't flood the internets with extra streams. 2 streams will be enough and will allow for non-stop coverage of a match or another. Once the end cup starts, you can of course cover the matches more easily.
<!--quoteo(post=1991033:date=Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Oct 14 2012, 04:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1991033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yeah, we could play all the tourny in 6-10 consecutive days depending on how much time per day we would need to spend on it, but as I said - is everyone up for it? Also, we are talking here about Online tournament, not LAN, right? So... the time zones. Again, that's a vital point in that.
Wouldn't you loose participants because of that? Wouldn't you loose viewers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 teams per RR bracket takes something like 3-4 hours, 6 teams 5-6. Just 1 alien and 1 marine round and count points, next match. Both of these are doable in one evening. That leaves the end cup for the next evening. Once you take into account the single/double elimination Best-Of-3 systems 3rd rounds, you probably do not end up with that much longer tournaments.
So, tl;dr: I think that just by tweaking a few details and thinking the thing through it is pretty easy to avoid most of the problems you pointed out. The advantages of RR are that every team gets 3-5 matches (4 or 6 teams per group) and you still get that exciting end cup. There are less coin tosses and thus less random. You still get to cast matches. Everyone is better off! ;)