<!--quoteo(post=1986128:date=Oct 2 2012, 11:52 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 2 2012, 11:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go bite res nodes? You don't have to hold the node to deny the other team resources. Do you prefer hour long games of trying to break a marine turtle like in NS1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1986142:date=Oct 3 2012, 12:55 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 3 2012, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Codeine if you cant keep res nodes you dont deserve to win the game. Simple as that. If you're playing SC2 and you cant keep your mining bases you're going to lose. starcraft is a game that every strategy game should take inspiration from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not what i mean, i dont mean the losing team should get something to push back from,what im saying is that you can tell the game is over at the 10 min mark if the other team has stopped your team and taken most of the nodes. 10mins is way to early to know when the game is forfeit.
And ns2 should be taking inspiration from ns1 not ###### sc.
<!--quoteo(post=1986149:date=Oct 2 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 2 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats not what i mean, i dont mean the losing team should get something to push back from,what im saying is that you can tell the game is over at the 10 min mark if the other team has stopped your team and taken most of the nodes. 10mins is way to early to know when the game is forfeit.
And ns2 should be taking inspiration from ns1 not ###### sc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is not NS1, it should be as much of its own new game as possible. I'd personally love to see more strategy elements in the game as it would make NS2 that much more different from every other shooter on the market.
10 minutes is actually quite a long time, considering the devs even wanted NS1 games to last between 15-25 minutes on average. Hell i've even seen jetpacks at 5 minutes 30 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1986152:date=Oct 2 2012, 08:12 AM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Oct 2 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10 minutes is actually quite a long time, considering the devs even wanted NS1 games to last between 15-25 minutes on average. Hell i've even seen jetpacks at 5 minutes 30 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I don't think the devs wanted a game that people f4 from halfway through from there being no possible way to come back once, say, the 2nd hive goes down.
It takes an incredible ammount of teamwork (for pubs) to actually be able to come back from losing the 2nd Hive.
I'm not saying it should be easy for the losing team to stay viable, but it shouldn't be impossible. Marines still have the possibility to take back the 2nd CC with just a3/w3 and guns against Aliens with thier abilities, granted this is difficult, but not impossible. The opposite cannot be said about aliens. a base rush always ocurs after the 2nd hive goes down, and the game ends there one way or another.
That's kinda how it is with RTS. Lose the early game, lose the whole game. I've seen miracles happen, very rarely (2/3 tech point reverse) but usually if you're down to 3 RTs vs 5+ for 2+ minutes, it's kind of over.
P.S. The "people leaving" problem is more or less solved with the autobalance that is now present on most servers. Marines don't spawn until there is an even number of alien players and vice-versa. Also, the "surrender" mod couldn't be easier than it is right now... just press ` and type "surrender" (on surrender mod-enabled servers). The real problem is people not realizing the game is over when it is in my opinion, or hoping for a miraculous comeback. I don't like wasting my time, so if a server is getting trolled (e.g. skulks without leap vs jetpack marines), I'll usually leave if the game isn't over in 2-3 minutes.
And it is depressing, yes. Losing games is depressing :-) . But that's life I guess, just gotta learn how to deal with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1986229:date=Oct 2 2012, 02:03 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 2 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I don't think the devs wanted a game that people f4 from halfway through from there being no possible way to come back once, say, the 2nd hive goes down.
It takes an incredible ammount of teamwork (for pubs) to actually be able to come back from losing the 2nd Hive.
I'm not saying it should be easy for the losing team to stay viable, but it shouldn't be impossible. Marines still have the possibility to take back the 2nd CC with just a3/w3 and guns against Aliens with thier abilities, granted this is difficult, but not impossible. The opposite cannot be said about aliens. a base rush always ocurs after the 2nd hive goes down, and the game ends there one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be that as it may the balance is still shifted towards marines. Marines don't feel the effects of losing a base like that nearly as much as aliens do. Hell marines dont feel the effects of their base getting harassed nearly as much as aliens do because of phase gates and weak upgrade structures for aliens.
Aliens have much to gain from getting a second hive and therefore much to lose if that hive is threatened. It should be the same way with marines. Make phase gate tech and W3/A3 require two comm chairs.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I think this is one of the big frictions between the FPS and RTS portions of the game. In a FPS, its important to minimize the time between when the game is won and when it ends. This is less of a concern in a RTS, because you can expect the losing player to resign.
Also, teamwork is unlikely to help you make a comeback; I've certainly not seen it in a pub game. Most of the time, comebacks are the result of weaker players quitting and being replaced by stronger ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1986260:date=Oct 2 2012, 03:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 2 2012, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is one of the big frictions between the FPS and RTS portions of the game. In a FPS, its important to minimize the time between when the game is won and when it ends. This is less of a concern in a RTS, because you can expect the losing player to resign.
Also, teamwork is unlikely to help you make a comeback; I've certainly not seen it in a pub game. Most of the time, comebacks are the result of weaker players quitting and being replaced by stronger ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never thought about that. In NS1 it was handled by the auto resign feature. If enough people on one team F4'd they would automatically lose. It worked fine then, I don't see why it hasn't been implemented in NS2 yet.
From my experience, most games are already decided by minute 7-10. The rest is just "going through the motions." I'm with Bob that the only way to win a "lost" game (in terms of res domination) is good players quitting and being replaced with bad players, or a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE mistake by one of the commanders (undetected ninja phase-gate, or undetected ninja shift or tech point rush without an adequate and swift answer). There are some truly close games though, which are fun to play even if you lose, but more often than not it's a clear domination by one of the teams by 7-10min into the game.
Huge mistakes happen, as they do in RTS, but hoping for one is like hoping for winning the lottery (given that both commanders and most of both teams are reasonably experienced). I personally prefer to not waste my time.
Personally, I don't like unpredictable games and "heroes" as much. I don't like people clutching 5 to 1 and winning the game. I think NS2 strikes a good balance between having one insanely good player win the entire game, and an emphasis on working together. You can take a "hero" player down by working together, but it still allows good people to exert some degree of domination, especially as marine and fade.
The problem lies in the players (FPS) having to babysit res nodes (RTS). Right now in the beta, we're learning what to do and figuring out stuff. When the game releases, I forsee either both teams just turtling res nodes which means very little contact with the enemy and any sort of actual battle, or no one defending anything and just running around trying to kill the other team's res towers. The alien commander would not be affected too greatly, but the marine commander would be ###### if no one tried to build anything and the repair bots are a necessary but very weak (in terms of survival) replacement.
Teamwork is key, yes, but many in this thread have just stated they would rather have a short game than a long, drawn out boring game. Hence mashing F4 will always crop up because people don't want to actually try and work together to pull through. You don't get your car stuck in the mud only to give up and buy a new vehicle, though in that same light you don't lose 3 wheels and think "It's still drivable" and stubbornly press onward. Problem is, people right now would just rather give up than try, and with good reason as there is very few ways to even get back on your feet just short of a miracle. For marines, it is feasible even with a few players pressing F4. For aliens, not likely.
Marine structures are balanced by shorter build speeds than alien structures. If you want shorter build times on alien side, you have to have a gorge building, which means P.res spending, and one player less attacking marines as a skulk/lerk/fade/onos. In that sense, I think it's fine as it is.
The essence of this game is teamwork anyway; of course there will be an imperial ton of noobs on release day with no teamwork and no understanding of the game, and they will be defeated repeatedly. That is hardly a problem, as that is the way every game is, and it happens even now in the beta...
<!--quoteo(post=1986143:date=Oct 2 2012, 09:55 AM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 2 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't play much do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that really you're only argument? I play the game quite a bit. If you think killing enemy structures isn't a good plan then I really don't know what to tell you. You're playing the wrong game.
<!--quoteo(post=1986331:date=Oct 2 2012, 05:25 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Oct 2 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine structures are balanced by shorter build speeds than alien structures. If you want shorter build times on alien side, you have to have a gorge building, which means P.res spending, and one player less attacking marines as a skulk/lerk/fade/onos. In that sense, I think it's fine as it is.
The essence of this game is teamwork anyway; of course there will be an imperial ton of noobs on release day with no teamwork and no understanding of the game, and they will be defeated repeatedly. That is hardly a problem, as that is the way every game is, and it happens even now in the beta...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct in that regard, as well as alien structures do build themselves. The only difference is one marine with a welder is the same as a skulk + gorge seeing as a gorge is not made to fight a marine at all. Their only defense is to heal spray and run as hydras provide little protection or deterrent against a marine. So, theoretically, that's 2 aliens out of a fight if the skulk has to guard the gorge. You and I know that won't happen as most skulks will want to chomp marines or be in an area nearby that attracts marines to chomp rather than protect a gorge. A marine with a welder can defend himself, a gorge barely can.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1986322:date=Oct 2 2012, 03:06 PM:name=WraithVerge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WraithVerge @ Oct 2 2012, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teamwork is key, yes, but many in this thread have just stated they would rather have a short game than a long, drawn out boring game. Hence mashing F4 will always crop up because people don't want to actually try and work together to pull through. You don't get your car stuck in the mud only to give up and buy a new vehicle, though in that same light you don't lose 3 wheels and think "It's still drivable" and stubbornly press onward. Problem is, people right now would just rather give up than try, and with good reason as there is very few ways to even get back on your feet just short of a miracle. For marines, it is feasible even with a few players pressing F4. For aliens, not likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or we've learned how to tell the difference between being stuck in the mud vs losing three wheels and find ourselves without wheels in many matches.
<!--quoteo(post=1986374:date=Oct 2 2012, 07:53 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 2 2012, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or we've learned how to tell the difference between being stuck in the mud vs losing three wheels and find ourselves without wheels in many matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, but the variable! Spare tires. Marines can do without usually, aliens don't know what a tire is.
<!--quoteo(post=1986343:date=Oct 3 2012, 09:20 AM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Oct 3 2012, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is that really you're only argument? I play the game quite a bit. If you think killing enemy structures isn't a good plan then I really don't know what to tell you. You're playing the wrong game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing the point. But continue to argue all you like.
I've only played on pubs, and part of the problem is that as soon as a team starts losing, the team gets disheartened, stops trying, gives up hope of winning, and thus cannot make a coordinated effort to turn the tables. I imagine this is different in competitive play as mostly they will still act as a team and try to win till the last minute.
Often all that's required for aliens is a powernode rush. And for marine, even if they don't have enough res for weapons and exo/jp, <i>sometimes </i>still stand a chance if they still have upgrades, if they band together to expand out again or attack a hive.
Sometimes there's nothing that can be done, but the f4 mentality that the game is already over is usually what sets it in stone. However, usually if a team is losing that badly, they aren't going to be able to work as a team anyway to change the situation. The game shouldn't compensate for people getting disheartened and stop trying though.
Somebody mentioned something about marines spawning with their upgrades and aliens spawning with nothing. I'd like to see the ability to choose upgrades while you're waiting to spawn. This would ease hive domination late game if marines are winning. Also, a fix to choosing your spawn location would be good too.
<!--quoteo(post=1986410:date=Oct 2 2012, 09:41 PM:name=Codeine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Codeine @ Oct 2 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're missing the point. But continue to argue all you like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You never made a point.
I don't know why we're still arguing this. It's very simple. One side, the Marines, gets to keep their upgrades on one base. The aliens don't. They lose their upgrades and they're doomed.
Marine upgrades are infinitely more powerful than alien upgrades. Oh you have leap? How cute. A 3/3 shotgun still ends the life of a carapaced skulk instantly.
I understand alien players get their non-evolutionary upgrades for "free", but it doesn't matter because a basic 2/2 marine is still infinitely more combat effective than the most highly upgraded skulk on the map. If you lose your mid game fades the alien team is doomed and there is little chance of recovery.
When one side has better upgrades that last independently of CC or Hive count, and the other doesn't, it only stands to reason alien recoveries are virtually impossible.
Oh the other hand, I've seen marine bases survive for 20 minutes against aliens controlling the entire map. Such is the nature of upgrades and ranged weapons.
Until such a time as skulks can "buy" attack upgrades this imbalance will remain.
One of the recurring things being mentioned in the thread is res domination. Had diminishing returns for nodes ever been considered? If res production for every node over three only gave .5 res(as in 1,2,3 nodes gives 1,2,3 res, 4 nodes gives 3.5, five gives 4 etc) it would make early-game res domination less pronounced.
Comments
You don't play much do you?
Could say the same of you buddy, I see wisdom in his words.
Thats not what i mean, i dont mean the losing team should get something to push back from,what im saying is that you can tell the game is over at the 10 min mark if the other team has stopped your team and taken most of the nodes. 10mins is way to early to know when the game is forfeit.
And ns2 should be taking inspiration from ns1 not ###### sc.
And ns2 should be taking inspiration from ns1 not ###### sc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 is not NS1, it should be as much of its own new game as possible. I'd personally love to see more strategy elements in the game as it would make NS2 that much more different from every other shooter on the market.
10 minutes is actually quite a long time, considering the devs even wanted NS1 games to last between 15-25 minutes on average. Hell i've even seen jetpacks at 5 minutes 30 seconds.
But I don't think the devs wanted a game that people f4 from halfway through from there being no possible way to come back once, say, the 2nd hive goes down.
It takes an incredible ammount of teamwork (for pubs) to actually be able to come back from losing the 2nd Hive.
I'm not saying it should be easy for the losing team to stay viable, but it shouldn't be impossible. Marines still have the possibility to take back the 2nd CC with just a3/w3 and guns against Aliens with thier abilities, granted this is difficult, but not impossible. The opposite cannot be said about aliens. a base rush always ocurs after the 2nd hive goes down, and the game ends there one way or another.
P.S. The "people leaving" problem is more or less solved with the autobalance that is now present on most servers. Marines don't spawn until there is an even number of alien players and vice-versa. Also, the "surrender" mod couldn't be easier than it is right now... just press ` and type "surrender" (on surrender mod-enabled servers). The real problem is people not realizing the game is over when it is in my opinion, or hoping for a miraculous comeback. I don't like wasting my time, so if a server is getting trolled (e.g. skulks without leap vs jetpack marines), I'll usually leave if the game isn't over in 2-3 minutes.
And it is depressing, yes. Losing games is depressing :-) . But that's life I guess, just gotta learn how to deal with it.
It takes an incredible ammount of teamwork (for pubs) to actually be able to come back from losing the 2nd Hive.
I'm not saying it should be easy for the losing team to stay viable, but it shouldn't be impossible. Marines still have the possibility to take back the 2nd CC with just a3/w3 and guns against Aliens with thier abilities, granted this is difficult, but not impossible. The opposite cannot be said about aliens. a base rush always ocurs after the 2nd hive goes down, and the game ends there one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be that as it may the balance is still shifted towards marines. Marines don't feel the effects of losing a base like that nearly as much as aliens do. Hell marines dont feel the effects of their base getting harassed nearly as much as aliens do because of phase gates and weak upgrade structures for aliens.
Aliens have much to gain from getting a second hive and therefore much to lose if that hive is threatened. It should be the same way with marines. Make phase gate tech and W3/A3 require two comm chairs.
Also, teamwork is unlikely to help you make a comeback; I've certainly not seen it in a pub game. Most of the time, comebacks are the result of weaker players quitting and being replaced by stronger ones.
Also, teamwork is unlikely to help you make a comeback; I've certainly not seen it in a pub game. Most of the time, comebacks are the result of weaker players quitting and being replaced by stronger ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never thought about that. In NS1 it was handled by the auto resign feature. If enough people on one team F4'd they would automatically lose. It worked fine then, I don't see why it hasn't been implemented in NS2 yet.
Huge mistakes happen, as they do in RTS, but hoping for one is like hoping for winning the lottery (given that both commanders and most of both teams are reasonably experienced). I personally prefer to not waste my time.
Personally, I don't like unpredictable games and "heroes" as much. I don't like people clutching 5 to 1 and winning the game. I think NS2 strikes a good balance between having one insanely good player win the entire game, and an emphasis on working together. You can take a "hero" player down by working together, but it still allows good people to exert some degree of domination, especially as marine and fade.
Teamwork is key, yes, but many in this thread have just stated they would rather have a short game than a long, drawn out boring game. Hence mashing F4 will always crop up because people don't want to actually try and work together to pull through. You don't get your car stuck in the mud only to give up and buy a new vehicle, though in that same light you don't lose 3 wheels and think "It's still drivable" and stubbornly press onward. Problem is, people right now would just rather give up than try, and with good reason as there is very few ways to even get back on your feet just short of a miracle. For marines, it is feasible even with a few players pressing F4. For aliens, not likely.
The essence of this game is teamwork anyway; of course there will be an imperial ton of noobs on release day with no teamwork and no understanding of the game, and they will be defeated repeatedly. That is hardly a problem, as that is the way every game is, and it happens even now in the beta...
Is that really you're only argument? I play the game quite a bit. If you think killing enemy structures isn't a good plan then I really don't know what to tell you. You're playing the wrong game.
The essence of this game is teamwork anyway; of course there will be an imperial ton of noobs on release day with no teamwork and no understanding of the game, and they will be defeated repeatedly. That is hardly a problem, as that is the way every game is, and it happens even now in the beta...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct in that regard, as well as alien structures do build themselves. The only difference is one marine with a welder is the same as a skulk + gorge seeing as a gorge is not made to fight a marine at all. Their only defense is to heal spray and run as hydras provide little protection or deterrent against a marine. So, theoretically, that's 2 aliens out of a fight if the skulk has to guard the gorge. You and I know that won't happen as most skulks will want to chomp marines or be in an area nearby that attracts marines to chomp rather than protect a gorge. A marine with a welder can defend himself, a gorge barely can.
Or we've learned how to tell the difference between being stuck in the mud vs losing three wheels and find ourselves without wheels in many matches.
Ah, but the variable! Spare tires. Marines can do without usually, aliens don't know what a tire is.
You're missing the point. But continue to argue all you like.
Often all that's required for aliens is a powernode rush. And for marine, even if they don't have enough res for weapons and exo/jp, <i>sometimes </i>still stand a chance if they still have upgrades, if they band together to expand out again or attack a hive.
Sometimes there's nothing that can be done, but the f4 mentality that the game is already over is usually what sets it in stone. However, usually if a team is losing that badly, they aren't going to be able to work as a team anyway to change the situation. The game shouldn't compensate for people getting disheartened and stop trying though.
Somebody mentioned something about marines spawning with their upgrades and aliens spawning with nothing. I'd like to see the ability to choose upgrades while you're waiting to spawn. This would ease hive domination late game if marines are winning. Also, a fix to choosing your spawn location would be good too.
You never made a point.
Marine upgrades are infinitely more powerful than alien upgrades. Oh you have leap? How cute. A 3/3 shotgun still ends the life of a carapaced skulk instantly.
I understand alien players get their non-evolutionary upgrades for "free", but it doesn't matter because a basic 2/2 marine is still infinitely more combat effective than the most highly upgraded skulk on the map. If you lose your mid game fades the alien team is doomed and there is little chance of recovery.
When one side has better upgrades that last independently of CC or Hive count, and the other doesn't, it only stands to reason alien recoveries are virtually impossible.
Oh the other hand, I've seen marine bases survive for 20 minutes against aliens controlling the entire map. Such is the nature of upgrades and ranged weapons.
Until such a time as skulks can "buy" attack upgrades this imbalance will remain.