Tech Point Disparity (Aliens 3 Hives, Marines 2 Chairs)
HeatSurge
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
As I've played the game, I've been wondering - why is it that marines have no incentive to make a 3rd chair when the aliens have a huge incentive to make a 3rd hive? What makes this "worse" is that hives are more expensive than chairs (30 Tres for chair+IP vs 40 Tres for hive).
If aliens don't make a 3rd hive, they're forfeiting a significant part of their abilities (stomp, umbra, as well as a crag/shift/shade "tier" of upgrades). If marines don't make a 3rd chair, they're forfeiting nothing.
It seems to work in the game right now somehow, but it makes me think... is this balanced? Shouldn't some of the "high tier" marine abilities like maybe exos or grenade launchers or level 3 armor/weapons be linked to building a third chair?
P.S. As someone mentioned in another thread, Aliens also have a LOT more to lose (leap, blink, spores) if they lose their second hive as opposed to marines who only lose jetpacks and exos and can still make aggressive phase gates and siege a hive. I think that's one of the primary reasons for seeing second hive rushes in competitive games.
P.P.S. I think if there are changes made in the future, that maybe a com. chair should cost 30 or 40 and come with a built-in infantry portal (placed after the chair is) similar to the robotics factory which comes with a built-in mac.
If aliens don't make a 3rd hive, they're forfeiting a significant part of their abilities (stomp, umbra, as well as a crag/shift/shade "tier" of upgrades). If marines don't make a 3rd chair, they're forfeiting nothing.
It seems to work in the game right now somehow, but it makes me think... is this balanced? Shouldn't some of the "high tier" marine abilities like maybe exos or grenade launchers or level 3 armor/weapons be linked to building a third chair?
P.S. As someone mentioned in another thread, Aliens also have a LOT more to lose (leap, blink, spores) if they lose their second hive as opposed to marines who only lose jetpacks and exos and can still make aggressive phase gates and siege a hive. I think that's one of the primary reasons for seeing second hive rushes in competitive games.
P.P.S. I think if there are changes made in the future, that maybe a com. chair should cost 30 or 40 and come with a built-in infantry portal (placed after the chair is) similar to the robotics factory which comes with a built-in mac.
Comments
I don't think shotties to 2 CCs would be a good idea - they should stay to 1 as they are right now. PG should also be available with 1 as it is right now. Maybe the following:
1 CC: Everything except weapons/armor limited to level 1; no proto lab; no advanced armory
2 CC: Everything except weapons/armor limited to level 2; only jetpacks in proto lab, no grenade launchers (flamethrower only) in advanced armory
3 CC: Everything (exos and grenade launchers, level 3 weapons)
You need jetpacks to "counter" blink and leap effectively, usually, and with leap and blink to 2 hives jetpacks to 3 CCs would be a bad idea.
I also think a third chair with 15 res doesn't really mean much difference from now; 15 res is still not much of a difference compared to the 40 aliens need to spend on a hive. That's why I think it might be a good idea to force 30 (or even 35-40) res on a chair with a built-in IP (to mirror a hive which spawns eggs which costs 40).
The change is simple and has been talked about before.
Tie W3/A3 and phase gates to 2 CCs and tie dual minigun exos to 3 CCs.
I don't think shotties to 2 CCs would be a good idea - they should stay to 1 as they are right now. PG should also be available with 1 as it is right now. Maybe the following:
1 CC: Everything except weapons/armor limited to level 1; no proto lab; no advanced armory
2 CC: Everything except weapons/armor limited to level 2; only jetpacks in proto lab, no grenade launchers (flamethrower only) in advanced armory
3 CC: Everything (exos and grenade launchers, level 3 weapons)
You need jetpacks to "counter" blink and leap effectively, usually, and with leap and blink to 2 hives jetpacks to 3 CCs would be a bad idea.
I also think a third chair with 15 res doesn't really mean much difference from now; 15 res is still not much of a difference compared to the 40 aliens need to spend on a hive. That's why I think it might be a good idea to force 30 (or even 35-40) res on a chair with a built-in IP (to mirror a hive which spawns eggs which costs 40).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why do lvl 3 weapons and gls need to be 3 ccs's the only thing that needs to be level 3 are exo (and dbl exo mg) tying a/w3 to a 3rd com chair is game breaking not to mention it would render maps like veil almost unplayable.
I also think exos shouldn't be available at all until 3 CCs as well as nade launchers.
In my experience a good jetpacking marine is just as powerful as an exo, due to being able to evade - and the weapon isn't lost when he dies because someone else can pick it up (unlike an exo). The net loss of a jetpacking nade launcher death is 10 Pres, unlike the loss of a dual exo which is 75 Pres - and in some situations when there isn't direct LOS to a hive, a jetpacking nade launcher can do MUCH more sustained and area-effect damage than an exo (e.g. refinery on mineshaft where you can't hit the hive with an exo from downstairs, but you can easily spam nades; cargo on veil where there isn't LOS to the hive from the corridors but you can spam nades over the boxes). A jetpacker is also more vulnerable, true, but with a forward armory/PG, in my opinion JP+nade launchers are FAR more effective than an exo (which is why exos are deprecated in competitive/serious games anyway).
As it is right now, exos are a troll unit for an already winning team more than a game-changer in my opinion... The real "knife-edge-game" unit is jetpacks + nade launchers/shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1986271:date=Oct 2 2012, 02:04 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Oct 2 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why do lvl 3 weapons and gls need to be 3 ccs's the only thing that needs to be level 3 are exo (and dbl exo mg) tying a/w3 to a 3rd com chair is game breaking not to mention it would render maps like veil almost unplayable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? Does the difference between level 2 and level 3 weapons/armor really "win" games in your experience? In mine, they don't. Neither do exos. Grenade launchers do though.
Why do some alien abilities have to be 3 hives? Don't you think that makes maps like veil almost unplayable already?
I personally think it would make the most sense for both teams to be fighting to hold their two bases throughout the game and if one team loses a base its REALLY bad for that team. But if a team manages to take and hold a third base that gives them a bigger edge than the team holding two bases.
Therefore most of the meat and potatoes tech should be available to 2 bases while that third base gives the team that holds it something that really really gives them the edge.
It would be interesting to see a map that had aliens and marines with an easily accessable 2nd base (so both teams have two bases easily) but only one extra base in the center of the map, where the fighting would take place.
Maybe just increase the value of the AA either by cost or time (or both) to make it an equivilent investment to a 2nd hive (accounting for cost of researching the guns themselves).
However, this leads to the point that the T2 tech for marines (heavy weapons) does not require holding more than 1 tech point, meaning marines can get T3 tech by holding 2 rooms, while aliens need 3.
For clarification on my views of tiers:
Marine:
T1: 1 CC, no AA : Mines, welders, shotguns, a1/w1, Phase Tech (1 Tech Point)
T2: 1 CC, AA: GLs, Flamethrowers (1 Tech Point)
T3: 2 CC, AA: JPs, Exo, Dual Exo, Nano Shield. (2 Tech Points)
Alien:
T1: 1 Hive: 2 upgrades from chosen path (1 Tech Point)
T2: 2 Hive: 2 upgrades from 2 paths, with first level lifeform abilities (2 Tech Points)
T3: 3 Hive: 2 upgrades from 3 paths, with 2nd level lifeform abiliities (3 Tech Points)
What makes Veil unique is that it's 4 tech points, so it's perceived that teams have an "equal" chance of winning, with double usually tipping the balance (more res to whoever owns double).
In reality, in longer games, marines clearly have an advantage on Veil though (and in other maps), because they can get all available tech whereas the aliens can't. In my opinion, this just looks like bad design... It seems to work though, somehow. But it is disappointing to an alien com that, especially if you have extra Tres, there's really nothing to spend it on (unlike with marines) until there's a 3rd hive - so you end up dropping eggs instead -_- .
P.S. Alternative suggestion: Instead of redesigning the Marine "tech tree," redesign the alien one. Make the 2-hive abilities (leap, blink, spores, etc.) be available with 1 hive, but more expensive. Make the 3-hive abilities (umbra, stomp) be available with 2 hives, but more expensive. Just in summary, I think something should be done to make marines really have an incentive to fight for that third chair (+IP?) just like aliens do for a third hive now, instead of sitting on 2 chairs and making aggressive phasegates instead. It's too easy for marines to "siege" with nade launchers right now, in my opinion, whereas it's considerably more difficult for aliens to do that. In my observation, this makes aliens generally more unappealing to play with, and what I've personally noticed is that most clan/good people prefer to play with marines as a result...
There was a <a href='index.php?showtopic=121113'>suggestion</a> on the forum for a possible upgrade in place of hypermutation; with the upgrade you can use the abilities normally unlocked by the next hive (ie, skulk with this upgrade and 1 hive would have leap). I think this is a good possibility to give aliens more options.
Maybe just increase the value of the AA either by cost or time (or both) to make it an equivilent investment to a 2nd hive (accounting for cost of researching the guns themselves).
However, this leads to the point that the T2 tech for marines (heavy weapons) does not require holding more than 1 tech point, meaning marines can get T3 tech by holding 2 rooms, while aliens need 3.
For clarification on my views of tiers:
Marine:
T1: 1 CC, no AA : Mines, welders, shotguns, a1/w1, Phase Tech (1 Tech Point)
T2: 1 CC, AA: GLs, Flamethrowers (1 Tech Point)
T3: 2 CC, AA: JPs, Exo, Dual Exo, Nano Shield. (2 Tech Points)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only issue with above is that A2 & W2 (and greater) should be tied to 2nd CC (though I believe you might have meant that given A1 W1 at 1 CC)
<!--quoteo(post=1986280:date=Oct 3 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Oct 3 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien:
T1: 1 Hive: 2 upgrades from chosen path (1 Tech Point)
T2: 2 Hive: 2 upgrades from 2 paths, with first level lifeform abilities (2 Tech Points)
T3: 3 Hive: 2 upgrades from 3 paths, with 2nd level lifeform abiliities (3 Tech Points)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would force marines to expand and allow aliens a chance to actually not simply try to rush the 1 marine base for first 7-8 min whilst marines sit there..research all the upgrades then push.
Holding 3 extractors is not hard for most team...and requires marines to camp not push (so ambushing is almost impossible).
This allows marines to currently play into their strengths and force aliens to play at their disadvantage...forcing them to get 2nd CC for leap so they have a chance to try to push into marine territory.
Then everyone just needs 2 tech points for endgame tech. Only reason the move for hive requirements for alien tech was that aliens were getting leap in first 30 seconds of game. With their own version of AA to slow that down, I see no problem.
This is good for game play because it gives aliens a goal (3rd hive) while giving marines a counter-goal (denying 3rd hive). If marines can deny 3rd hive long enough to fully tech, they're probably going to win.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing alien tier2 tech dropped to tier1 and tier3 tech to tier2, with no tier3 level.
Hivemind lets you tranfer 2nd and 3rd tier abilities to 1 hive once 2-3 hives have been built.
Creates a shell game of sorts for marines as to which hive has the abilites.
Costs you 30 res to upgrade a hive to Hivemind.
Only 1 hive may have the hivemind but you can move it to any hive at anytime for 30 res
This mechanic still creates the importance of obtaining the initial 2nd and 3rd hive.
But once you have that 2nd and 3rd hive and researched hivemind. Losing a 2nd or 3rd hive is not quite so crippling for aliens as it currently is.
Does not tranfer chamber tech.
Only ablities. eg Leap, Blink etc etc
Nah, tie arms lab upgrade level to the # of tech points. 1 tech point means you can get level 1 upgrades, 2 tech points=level 2, 3 tech points=level 3.
This is good for game play because it gives aliens a goal (3rd hive) while giving marines a counter-goal (denying 3rd hive). If marines can deny 3rd hive long enough to fully tech, they're probably going to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3rd-tier abilities are hardly "game-ending" in my opinion. Stomp is powerful, but jetpacks and exos easily counter it. Umbra is powerful with teamwork, but it only deflects 50% of the damage caused and does 0 damage by itself. Vortex is... a little puzzling to me right now. I guess it's supposed to be used as some form of a "shield" while the rest of the team rushes in, but it doesn't last long enough and eats too much energy to be effective in my opinion.
Stomp truly is game-ending when there are no jetpacks or exos. That's when it really hits hard.
In my opinion the notion that the aliens are "fighting for a 3rd hive" while marines are simply "denying a 3rd hive" is a little... unfair :-) . Why shouldn't both teams have equal incentives to fight for the 3rd tech point, and be equally disadvantaged when they don't have it? The simple fact that marines can have most tech with 1 chair and all tech with 2 while aliens can NOT have most tech with 1 hive and can NOT have all tech with 2 hives is broken in design... but like I said above, surprisingly it "seems" to be working, somehow, in pub games anyway.
Stomp truly is game-ending when there are no jetpacks or exos. That's when it really hits hard.
In my opinion the notion that the aliens are "fighting for a 3rd hive" while marines are simply "denying a 3rd hive" is a little... unfair :-) . Why shouldn't both teams have equal incentives to fight for the 3rd tech point, and be equally disadvantaged when they don't have it? The simple fact that marines can have most tech with 1 chair and all tech with 2 while aliens can NOT have most tech with 1 hive and can NOT have all tech with 2 hives is broken in design... but like I said above, surprisingly it "seems" to be working, somehow, in pub games anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never argue with a Pug (GORGEous), k thx bai.
Honestly, Marines should not need 3 Command Stations to have any sort of tech. Alien Hive 3 tech is basically game ending unless Marines bring a miracle to the field. Hive 2 is even ground with 2 Command Stations... so I don't get your point.
In pub play the main reasons I drop a third hive is to get silence/feign and redundancy (lose a hive, still got leap/blink/bile).
In competitive play we rarely ever drop or see third hives dropped. Rather be dropping fade/onos eggs (and if we have the space/safety to drop a third hive, we're already winning usually).
Of course, I'm not counting "third hive" dropped as a distraction, a desperate measure or any of the other misdirection plays that the eggsack can be used for.
Many players including myself have already suggested letting the aliens research some abilities at 1 hive, but at a much larger cost or research time. This way the second hive would definitely remain an important objective for the aliens but it wouldn't be the cornerstone of alien strategy like it is today. I.e at a larger cost, some khammanders may opt to focus on RTS rather than get a quick hive. This would make for some really interesting variety in alien gameplay rather than the current dull 2nd hive at start gameplay.
Honestly, Marines should not need 3 Command Stations to have any sort of tech. Alien Hive 3 tech is basically game ending unless Marines bring a miracle to the field. Hive 2 is even ground with 2 Command Stations... so I don't get your point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow profound logic...you know him so why believe he might be wrong, so lets leave the fanboi lovins for irc and look at the comment being made.
Seriously show me how umbra is a game ender..or vortex, xeno or stomp.
Bile bomb is more of a game ender than any of the 3 listed above but its second hive and not a game ender when aliens get it.
Sorry but lets be honest about this...sure is nice as marines to only have to worry about 1 tech point...oh sure you cant get Exo or JP...WOW...you can still get everything else (phase tech, all weapons, armour upgrades, ARCS)..not like your really missing out on much.
this exactly the problem right here in case youre wondering, for all of you that are saying to tie upgrades to 2 and 3 com chairs
if marines are "turtling for upgrades" then why isnt your team destroying their rts and dropping as many hives as possible and surrounding them. a turling 1 com chair marine team is almost NEVER going to win. if marines are turtling TWO cc's even, its your JOB to be attacking that 2nd com chair or destroying resources.
do you have any idea how long it takes to get fully upgraded with just 1 or 2 rts while the alien team has expanded across the map? alien teams lose because they fail at area denial constantly and a big cause of that is because they simply let them. so how is tying upgrades to com chairs going to fix this? if youre not attacking marines at TWO com chairs why is adding yet another com chair going to help? youre still not going to be attacking that 3rd com chair, PLUS it denies any chance for another hive drop. all it does is drag the game out further and cause more f4s as marines turtle and wait for upgrades, or cause bad marine teams to f4 constantly because they get overrun by turtling 1 hive fades that kill them quickly because they do no damage to the fade and have crap armor.
Seriously show me how umbra is a game ender..or vortex, xeno or stomp.
Bile bomb is more of a game ender than any of the 3 listed above but its second hive and not a game ender when aliens get it.
Sorry but lets be honest about this...sure is nice as marines to only have to worry about 1 tech point...oh sure you cant get Exo or JP...WOW...you can still get everything else (phase tech, all weapons, armour upgrades, ARCS)..not like your really missing out on much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because by the time you have these upgrades you supposed to be attacking marine spawn.
as usual this is a problem with weakened aliens that dont attack marine start often enough and not coordinated.
as usual this is a problem with weakened aliens that dont attack marine start often enough and not coordinated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still say tier 2 Bile bomb does more than umbra, vortex, xenocide (ROFL) and stomp at ending a game so the argument of them being game enders is wrong.
They are far from it...they are only game enders because you have already won...if thats the case they are not game enders..fades and blink are (or gorge and bile, skulk and leap etc)
They are far from it...they are only game enders because you have already won...if thats the case they are not game enders..fades and blink are (or gorge and bile, skulk and leap etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because onos is too weak, xeno sucks, fade doesnt have acid rocket and are killed too easliy and lerks have no range spore. none of this will change it doesnt matter
This is good for game play because it gives aliens a goal (3rd hive) while giving marines a counter-goal (denying 3rd hive). If marines can deny 3rd hive long enough to fully tech, they're probably going to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
mfw
<img src="http://t.fireden.net/t/fireden.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Diablo-3-D3-DIII-General3.jpeg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Aliens need third hive stuff to simply keep pace with marines once they get duel exo and start printing arcs. Without the third hive abilities, marines have an extremely easy time to turtle by using these units defensively.
<img src="http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/194/001.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
But, no, really... Haha
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens need third hive stuff to simply keep pace with marines once they get duel exo and start printing arcs. Without the third hive abilities, marines have an extremely easy time to turtle by using these units defensively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They do? Because I don't see how. Xenocide punishes alien players, umbra on a ###### god awful 30 res lifeform that the developers have zero idea how to make work (Here's a hint. NS1), gorges get nothing, vortex is a troll ability, and stomp comes in way too late since marines have either jetpacks or exosuits which are both unaffected by, not to mention onos are ###### tier too. Third hive usually means shade tech, but I rather not even upgrade the hive and keep it as a backup if either the shift or crag hive goes down. So what you really get is extra eggs which doesn't mean much either because of the broken spawn system still in place.
You should be winning with two hives and if you're not winning anytime soon, then the third hive is a backup hive and nothing else. Bilebomb, leap and blink is what keeps aliens relevant, not third hive tech.
I do agree stomp is little use after midgame, and xeno is never any use though.
The comm built 2-3 obs. Then what?
Or instead of wasting energy on vortex, harass the marines. Fades are supposedly the anti-marine lifeform in the first place. I rather the vortex imploded and do damage instead of the lolinvulnerability crap it is now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->umbra on the onos do wonders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except no one wants to touch either one of those lifeforms for good reason. A) Lerk sucks. B) Onos sucks. Onos+gorge combo is still just as good, but problem B still exists.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3rd hive is really needed to break marine bases in the end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've broken plenty of marine bases in the end just on two hives alone. I can guarantee you that the reason you've won on aliens isn't because of finally getting that third hive up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree stomp is little use after midgame, and xeno is never any use though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. And the best part is they're not going to do anything to fix that.