why ruin all good in ns1

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  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1981885:date=Sep 23 2012, 04:12 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Sep 23 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet they seemed to have removed the tactics, calculation and need to be a team in ns2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Really?

    Then why do we see far less ramboing magical bhopping marines that get 5+ skulk kills without even trying?
    Oh, that's right, because you're vulnerable, slower and actually need your team covering you.

    And let's not forget Exos not being able to weld, build, or phase, unlike HA.
  • Az0r_auAz0r_au Join Date: 2011-05-17 Member: 99218Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1981894:date=Sep 23 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 23 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really?

    Then why do we see far less ramboing magical bhopping marines that get 5+ skulk kills without even trying?
    Oh, that's right, because you're vulnerable, slower and actually need your team covering you.

    And let's not forget Exos not being able to weld, build, or phase, unlike HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    *note* These comments below are from a competitive perspective.
    Marines couldn't bhop except uphill after patch 3.0 (i think it was) "Ramboing" was an integral part of the game, you usually couldn't spare more than 1 marine to do a quick RT recap in the non spawn hive side of the map (sorry for the clunky terms here). It seems like you want a back and bogged down back and forth, battling for every inch type of combat, not a free flowing quick paced game.
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like you want a back and bogged down back and forth, battling for every inch type of combat, not a free flowing quick paced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nope, I just disliked having NS1 marines reach skulk like speeds via an engine bug and the permanent hopping to avoid bites with no real downsides.
    Remember, CS became a much better and precise game after Bhopping was removed.

    The way NS2 is right now it allows for some ramboing, just not as extreme as NS1. At least, not as easy.
  • Az0r_auAz0r_au Join Date: 2011-05-17 Member: 99218Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1981900:date=Sep 23 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 23 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, I just disliked having NS1 marines reach skulk like speeds via an engine bug and the permanent hopping to avoid bites with no real downsides.
    Remember, CS became a much better and precise game after Bhopping was removed.

    The way NS2 is right now it allows for some ramboing, just not as extreme as NS1. At least, not as easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You could only bunnyhop as a marine if you landed higher than your initial launching altitude, IE off handrails or ramps. In a flat enviroment marines couldn't bunny hop at all. It really wasn't an issue.
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1975949:date=Sep 11 2012, 03:47 PM:name=kalakuja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kalakuja @ Sep 11 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wtf lerk no spores, makes lerk so damn useless. one pistol whip and he's gone
    wtf no bunnyhop and this wallhop thing is useless in most of locations as youve decided to put so much ###### on the walls.
    wtf is marine sprint. They move faster than regular aliens?
    wtf is this personal res bull. Can't even gain more res from kills and seems to be very out of place.
    wtf no fade blink in start. so damn bore.


    i just can't see any way that these things have made ns2 a better game than ns1. Please help me understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Welcome to NS2 beta.

    Lerks have spores but it's a hive 2 now, they changed it a few patches ago.
    Bunnyhop was a half life thing and wallhop is just as hard to do if not broken.
    Marines have sprint and can run almost as fast as aliens but only for a short time. My guess marine sprint was to replace bunnyhop and wiggle walk.
    My guess personal res is to replace res from killing the players on the other side and to prevent players who exceed at killing to be brought down to teh average play, to not get more res than the enitre team.
    Fades have blink but it's a hive 2 ability, in place the have shadow step.
  • measlesmeasles Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60122Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1975949:date=Sep 12 2012, 08:47 AM:name=kalakuja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kalakuja @ Sep 12 2012, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1975949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heard the game runs rather smooth so i decided to gfive it out to a spin.
    Now i get that the game isn't ns1 but why the heck there are so ridicilous choices made.

    wtf lerk no spores, makes lerk so damn useless. one pistol whip and he's gone
    wtf no bunnyhop and this wallhop thing is useless in most of locations as youve decided to put so much ###### on the walls.
    wtf is marine sprint. They move faster than regular aliens?
    wtf is this personal res bull. Can't even gain more res from kills and seems to be very out of place.
    wtf no fade blink in start. so damn bore.


    i just can't see any way that these things have made ns2 a better game than ns1. Please help me understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    That's great critisizm kalakuja!
    You must bear in mind that this is still a BETA.

    Lerk is better equipped (fully upgraded) than in NS2
    bunnyhop for marines? The marines certainly need to limber-up if they are to contest Fade assaults, and sprint has a limited range before needing recharge (But I can still catch one as a vanilla skulk).
    Res per kill I think will be implemented. But in a BETA it just gives to much encouragement to frag-######s and rambo's. This isn't competitive play, yet!
    Maybe noone told you that there is 'SHADOW STEP'. which Fade comes with no matter what upgrades. You can use this by pressing 'walk'. It's not as effective as blink but it might save/take your life.

    Again, thank you for your fresh perspective =)
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1981900:date=Sep 23 2012, 03:15 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 23 2012, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope, I just disliked having NS1 marines reach skulk like speeds via an engine bug and the permanent hopping to avoid bites with no real downsides.
    Remember, CS became a much better and precise game after Bhopping was removed.

    The way NS2 is right now it allows for some ramboing, just not as extreme as NS1. At least, not as easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is my favorite kind of post. Knows nothing about how bunnyhopping actually worked in ns1, but has really strong opinions about it!

    It's no coincidence that bunnyhop opponents consistently make the most uninformed posts.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I don't think it's that disingenuous to compare NS1 3.2 with NS2 1.0. There's a vast amount of data, opinions and experience to be gleaned from the development and playing cycle of NS1 and it's perfectly reasonable to expect that the lessons be carried over or, at least, that NS2 sees informed alternatives to previous problems. We've seen very little of either, to be honest.

    Also, can we just have some database of who actually was good at NS1? There's more and more people crawling out of the woodwork claiming to be good or a "veteran" at NS1 who are/were absolutely atrocious. The only reason they get away with it is because pretty much nobody who was good at NS1 plays NS2 - the few that do simply spread loyalty all over their resentment and are generally in to masochism.
  • Angry Hillbilly 2Angry Hillbilly 2 Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
    Im sorry guys but ive got to say this about the thread:

    <img src="http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/17/2603/38364885/do-not-feed-the-trolls-2-1765396632793658879.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Is it a troll if it doesn't know it's a troll?
  • Onii-chanOnii-chan Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7164Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1981984:date=Sep 23 2012, 01:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 23 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is my favorite kind of post. Knows nothing about how bunnyhopping actually worked in ns1, but has really strong opinions about it!

    It's no coincidence that bunnyhop opponents consistently make the most uninformed posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Bunnyhopping for marines worked like it did in any other HL1 mod, right up until it was patched in 3.0.
    And I'm not against bhopping, I just don't want it on marines. :)
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1981988:date=Sep 23 2012, 08:50 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 23 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, can we just have some database of who actually was good at NS1? There's more and more people crawling out of the woodwork claiming to be good or a "veteran" at NS1 who are/were absolutely atrocious. The only reason they get away with it is because pretty much nobody who was good at NS1 plays NS2 - the few that do simply spread loyalty all over their resentment and are generally in to masochism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ^^

    Bit hard with so many scenes all mixed in (euro / us+ca / aus).
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Yeah, I don't really propose that we create a list. It's just annoying seeing people prefix arguments with "as a NS1 vet" or "when I played competitively" to add credence to an otherwise laughable statement.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1981994:date=Sep 23 2012, 11:05 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 23 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping for marines worked like it did in any other HL1 mod, right up until it was patched in 3.0.
    And I'm not against bhopping, I just don't want it on marines. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It was patched out in 2.0 which iirc was released about 6 months after 1.0.

    It's disingenuous to act as though marine bhop was more than an archaic joke of a feature, similar to impulse 119 leap skulks
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1981988:date=Sep 23 2012, 06:50 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Sep 23 2012, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, can we just have some database of who actually was good at NS1? There's more and more people crawling out of the woodwork claiming to be good or a "veteran" at NS1 who are/were absolutely atrocious. The only reason they get away with it is because pretty much nobody who was good at NS1 plays NS2 - the few that do simply spread loyalty all over their resentment and are generally in to masochism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Many of those who post on the forums can be found listed on the "Past NS Competition Winners" Wikipedia page actually. That said, there are many, many more people who played competitively over the life span of NS1 than who are listed on that page, so I wouldn't suggest using it as some sort of metric of authority by any means.

    And I believe the 9 Legends site actually has numerous demos and .exe's of NS1. Though you'd have to have the corresponding version of NS1 to view the right demos.

    Honestly though, the claim of experience is only meaningful in the sense that it provides context to whatever statement is being made. Authority or credibility should be related to the strength of an argument, and not solely the experience of its author. But that's just my opinion.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1981923:date=Sep 23 2012, 03:26 AM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Sep 23 2012, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's great critisizm kalakuja!
    You must bear in mind that this is still a BETA.

    Lerk is better equipped (fully upgraded) than in NS2
    bunnyhop for marines? The marines certainly need to limber-up if they are to contest Fade assaults, and sprint has a limited range before needing recharge (But I can still catch one as a vanilla skulk).
    Res per kill I think will be implemented. But in a BETA it just gives to much encouragement to frag-######s and rambo's. This isn't competitive play, yet!
    Maybe noone told you that there is 'SHADOW STEP'. which Fade comes with no matter what upgrades. You can use this by pressing 'walk'. It's not as effective as blink but it might save/take your life.

    Again, thank you for your fresh perspective =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <i>(answering above question of credibility - I have none, i am a player who was in both the competitive scene and public scene without excelling in either. I was in a low ranked competitive clan and founded a short lived all star team that fell apart quickly. I am not an NS1 Vet but i have been around a long time =D <3 Pandas, 9L and Exigent too. )</i>

    I know you mean well, but please stop the "It's a beta" crap. We are at most 39 days from release. Nothing will change other than current projects (wall-fall, turrets, balance, and performance to name a few). So with that said the "It's a beta" excuse was just as useless to a player asking questions as it was 2 years ago, just more so now.

    Other points:

    Kalakuja, whether you are trolling or not just remember NS2 is NS1 with a ton of combat ideas thrown in. They made the game much more crowd pleasing and mimicked a lot of modern FPSs unfortunately. When adding some of these features they created problems to which they just added more features to fix the prior issues. Take it as it is because the game wont budge. Many players have tried in vain to get back to NS1 roots.

    The problem with the NS1 mod everyone is talking about is it wont ever be completed on Spark until performance of the engine is greatly increased. I think we are only scratching the surface of the difficulties creating your own engine creates, but i am no expert and it might not be that bad.

    The development can be expressed this way: Design > Immersion > Gameplay. No matter how an idea affected gameplay it was kept (Infestation, Power Nodes, Alien Comm, Gorge, and Tech Paths) because it looked good on paper. If it didnt look good on paper but looked pretty, it was also kept.

    I do give UWE a lot of credit when it comes to fad movement. Fade in the early beta builds looked cool, sounded cool, but was crap for gameplay. Warping in and out and invulnerable most of the time. It isnt perfect now but they compromised on blink and have actually almost turned it all around. Gameplay actually won out in that exchange.

    NS2 is the best thing out there when it comes to this style of game. Could it have been better? Maybe, but this is what we have. I hope UWE gets their vision completed by 1.0 and can stand behind their game without regrets. Not hope modding will take off and make up for a failed sequel but actually be proud of their creation as is. In this day and age gamers give a game about a week to a month and when not satisfied they move on and dont return.

    Let's hope NS2 measures up =) I have played long enough in the beta where i can at least enjoy myself and enjoy watching NS2 competitive games streamed. I promote the game to my friends as an alternative to the crap out there but i dont make it out to be the holy grail of gaming. We have a great community that backs UWE 99% of the time and really the community is what keeps me here. I hope UWE is as involved with us players as they were in the infancy of NS1.

    Good day to you.
  • MrRadicalEdMrRadicalEd Turrent Master Join Date: 2004-08-13 Member: 30601Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1982039:date=Sep 23 2012, 09:27 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 23 2012, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>(answering above question of credibility - I have none, i am a player who was in both the competitive scene and public scene without excelling in either. I was in a low ranked competitive clan and founded a short lived all star team that fell apart quickly. I am not an NS1 Vet but i have been around a long time =D <3 Pandas, 9L and Exigent too. )</i>

    I know you mean well, but please stop the "It's a beta" crap. We are at most 39 days from release. Nothing will change other than current projects (wall-fall, turrets, balance, and performance to name a few). So with that said the "It's a beta" excuse was just as useless to a player asking questions as it was 2 years ago, just more so now.

    Other points:

    Kalakuja, whether you are trolling or not just remember NS2 is NS1 with a ton of combat ideas thrown in. They made the game much more crowd pleasing and mimicked a lot of modern FPSs unfortunately. When adding some of these features they created problems to which they just added more features to fix the prior issues. Take it as it is because the game wont budge. Many players have tried in vain to get back to NS1 roots.

    The problem with the NS1 mod everyone is talking about is it wont ever be completed on Spark until performance of the engine is greatly increased. I think we are only scratching the surface of the difficulties creating your own engine creates, but i am no expert and it might not be that bad.

    The development can be expressed this way: Design > Immersion > Gameplay. No matter how an idea affected gameplay it was kept (Infestation, Power Nodes, Alien Comm, Gorge, and Tech Paths) because it looked good on paper. If it didnt look good on paper but looked pretty, it was also kept.

    I do give UWE a lot of credit when it comes to fad movement. Fade in the early beta builds looked cool, sounded cool, but was crap for gameplay. Warping in and out and invulnerable most of the time. It isnt perfect now but they compromised on blink and have actually almost turned it all around. Gameplay actually won out in that exchange.

    NS2 is the best thing out there when it comes to this style of game. Could it have been better? Maybe, but this is what we have. I hope UWE gets their vision completed by 1.0 and can stand behind their game without regrets. Not hope modding will take off and make up for a failed sequel but actually be proud of their creation as is. In this day and age gamers give a game about a week to a month and when not satisfied they move on and dont return.

    Let's hope NS2 measures up =) I have played long enough in the beta where i can at least enjoy myself and enjoy watching NS2 competitive games streamed. I promote the game to my friends as an alternative to the crap out there but i dont make it out to be the holy grail of gaming. We have a great community that backs UWE 99% of the time and really the community is what keeps me here. I hope UWE is as involved with us players as they were in the infancy of NS1.

    Good day to you.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I am in total alignment with you, RisingSun. From the "beta crap" to the "combat ideas"...

    Similar to combat, NS2 may need a "classic" spin off to fulfill a segment of Natural Selection fans.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2012
    NS 2 is by no means a bad product, but it obviously frustrates some of us oldschool NS 1 players endlessly that they are not turning it into an even better one. That's not to say NS 2 should just be a carbon copy of NS 1 on a better engine, but when a design or gameplay change from NS 1 doesn't work out, they should at least acknowledge it, revert it and move on. Just look at how long it took them to acknowledge lerks with bilebomb were fundamentally flawed, and how they are now trying to keep their ###### sentries in the game, despite EVERYONE basically saying the old NS 1 style sentries were so much better and provided for good gameplay. (And not at all unimportant, a viable com tech path).

    NS 2 has made some great strides, but there's still so many areas where gameplay can EASILY be improved (gorge, hydras, arcs, lerks, skulks, onos), and that's not even necessarily talking about balance. Sure it will keep improving after release, but that's really a poor argument to deliver a game on release day that isn't as good as it could have turned out to be at that point.
  • DanielDDanielD Join Date: 2010-11-16 Member: 74960Members
    edited September 2012
    Considering the size of the UWE team and the fact that they built an engine, the current state of NS2 seems pretty impressive. I think the game is already more polished than plenty of AAA titles. Constructive criticism is fine, but all the NS1 die-hards just plain whining is tiresome.
  • {GGs} Chicken{GGs} Chicken Join Date: 2011-11-22 Member: 134663Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1982147:date=Sep 23 2012, 01:37 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Sep 23 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering the size of the UWE team and the fact that they built an engine, the current state of NS2 seems pretty impressive. I think the game is already more polished than plenty of AAA titles. Constructive criticism is fine, but all the NS1 die-hards just plain whining is tiresome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP* I need to learn to be nicer -Kouji San<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1982154:date=Sep 23 2012, 02:02 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 23 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wow.. just wow..
  • BeelzebubBeelzebub Join Date: 2012-08-12 Member: 155506Members
    edited September 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1982154:date=Sep 23 2012, 05:02 PM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 23 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1982154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Seriously? Its not being a "Fanboy" its called having respect, something you must not know a lot about. I respect UWE team for spending 10+ years of their lives to this badass game. If you cannot respect that kind of dedication then why the hell are you even here?
  • ZaggyZaggy NullPointerException The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24214Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, Subnautica Playtester
    I see Kouji_San already got here first.

    What's the purpose of this thread really?

    NS2 is not NS1, get over it.

    **LOCKED**
This discussion has been closed.