<!--quoteo(post=1979707:date=Sep 18 2012, 09:08 PM:name=alster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alster @ Sep 18 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For Cory's defense more than half of the ns1 players switched to combat mod with 1 reason being players didn't have a com to make any defenses. It was more like COD or CS with mostly just PvP combat except for the occasional battle gorge.
TF has sentries yet both teams have range weapons therefore my suggestion of using the skulks parasite and gorges spit to cause slight misses in the sentry firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> well im not sure i can let that count in Cory´s(actually lets say UWE´s) defence, it just shows, that they have been listening to people, who dont even want to play NS, just some dumbed down arcade team deathmatch. which is fine, they should be able to play their deathmatches, the combatmod allready is in the works, but to actually sabotage the real NS is realy low of these community members.(<- i was about to delete that because its not a nice thing to say, but maybe people should think about what the mainNS is supposed to be, before they complain about things they dont like about it.)
so yeah there are different parts of the community but it shouldnt be so easy to confuse the devs about basic mechanics like a defence turret.
Just going to throw this out there again: bone shield stops Com from permanently locking down an area with sentries, because no amount of sentries will do damage.
I set up a thread in Ideas an Suggestions for the Sentry Battery Ammo Dispenser (SBAD) idea. I believe I managed to summarize most of the idea, but if you guys have anything you want to add, feel free.
I like the idea of making sentry's more offensive but when you can't place them on creep then that takes away from there viability as a offensive structure, i even had a game this morning where the sentry's where not shooting cysts in atrium because the cysts where on the lower part of the ramp and the sentry was on the top so the alien commander was able to cyst right past the sentry's.
The sentry's currently do not work as a good offensive utility since you gain so much more control and dps using arch's that fulfill the same roll better.
How you will make sentry's viable without taking them out of the game completely is going to be vary tough I'm sure, Lets increase the range with sentry placement from the batteries and make them so you can place them on creep, also reduce build time ( not sure how fast they are now but make them so it doesn't take longer then 8 seconds for the batteries and sentry combined.
Sorry if this has all already been said i skipped all the posts since I seen this on the dev tracker.
It seems to me that UWE is making a bigger problem out of sentries than the playerbase ever did... YES sentry spam in some of the older iterations (around build 200) was annoying, but it was never really problematic. I.e even before bilebomb was put on the gorge (which imo is a big deal in countering sentry spam, it's much more efficient than the bilebomb on the lerk was)) and lerk gas started blocking them you sometimes ran into games where marines could prolong a game indefinitely with sentry guns. Aliens simply didn't have the tools available to break a sentry spam, and it was incredibly annoying to deal with. I would very much like to argue that in the current builds this would no longer be an issue anyway.
Sentry spam NEVER won games, even back then. But somehow, instead of simply addressing the annoyance that was sentry spam, UWE interpreted the 'issue' as sentries overall, i.e EVEN from a design perspective, being problematic. (Which is something the community NEVER, not ONCE, and I can know since I have been here since the start pretty much, highlighted as an issue)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just bring back the NS1 sentry. Done. Simple, easy to understand, doesn't drive the commander nuts placing it, simply works. A circle strafing skulk will kill it with no damage taken. Anything bigger will easily be able to tank the damage from the sentry to kill it. Just make it that once there are 3 or more sentries, their rate of fire starts decreasing the more sentries are present. Lore is they drain too much power from the room's power node to be efficient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple yet elegant solution. Yet no one at UWE has thought of this. Instead they went with all kinds of far-fetched and confusing attempts to address the sentry 'problem'. PLEASE UWE, why can't we just try something simple like this... Please listen to the community in this
<!--quoteo(post=1979724:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:03 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Sep 18 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is an issue with sentries as they were when Aliens had no bile bomb, especially after losing the second hive, as macs plus sentries locked down areas in a way no heal spray is going to help you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the game has progressed to the point where Marines have an excess of tres, and the Aliens lose their second Hive, what is the chance for a comeback in that scenario for the Aliens even if there are no Sentries? I'd wager it's somewhere around 2%.
<!--quoteo(post=1979687:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:18 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 18 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strayan is right to an extent, that we have seen sentries time and time again ruin games. Many new commanders especially feel very weak and aren't used to relying on other marine players, so they will build up a lot of turrets to defend an area, and it can lead to some frustrating player versus structure interactions<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One idea that I have seen posted several times on the forum that hasn't been acknowledged by UWE is putting a cap on the number of sentries that can be built. 2 turrets per Command Center sounds good to start with. Also, making them slightly beefier.
It seems people would be more happy to try that than the current design.
yeah i like daphisto's idea, plus i used to love bilebombing sentry's as a gorge.
Also has there ever been a mod to turn sentry's into flamethrowers instead, that could be away to get back at the fades coming in and out of your base constantly by sapping them with damage over time plus nailing there adrenaline, could be vary useful early game with those fades, make its so they get hit even in blink.
Seriously, what's the argument against capping 3 turrets per power node? It's not intuitive for new commanders? All you have to do is make a note in the tool tip, and then have a message pop up saying "too many turrets for this power node" if you try to build one...
I'm sorry but what ELSE must a sentry do but spam rounds? That's the whole meaning when you use a sentry to defend i.e. a room.
This constant turtle this farm that argument is getting boring. Aliens can use long range attacks, fast running, stomping, bombing and blinking. Marines deal with that, let aliens deal with bullets and please stop dumbing the game down.
- replace commander built sentries with "sentry kits", which are player deployed objects that take up either a) primary weapons slot or b) fourth weapon slot (the slot previously reserved for mines) but always slow down the marine as much as a flamethrower would if he had one out. - sentries are placed like mines on the ground, when placed they are deployed quite slowly as to make it impossible to push with it without getting a wave of aliens spawns on you. Sentries can only be repaired using the "sentry tool" which is what the sentry kit is replaced with when the sentry is placed down. This tool can also be used to undeploy them, which can be used to change the direction of a sentry or carry it elsewhere. This does not recharge its energy however. - Energy is a resource that the sentry uses when placed in an unpowered room. It is drained really slowly unless it is firing. The sentry has unlimited ammo otherwise. It takes a while to switch to battery energy when a room just becomes unpowered, this short time leaves it vulnerable, and lasts about as long as it takes for the emergency lights to turn on. This is so that the ambush mechanic of dark rooms is kept. - there is a limit of one sentry per marine. When a marine purchases a sentry kit, there is a UI that comes up that shows the sentry's health, firing status, and energy if running in an unpowered room. - This new sentry kit mechanic is useful as it helps players establish roles and you can use sentries both offensively and defensively. The commander can participate by dropping powerpacks to give sentries power in unpowered rooms or by helping keep the "engineer" alive by issuing orders or dropping supplies. He can also purchase sentry kits for his team and direct them where he wants them to be placed if he so desires.
This borrows from both TF2 and Quake Wars: ET. I think it would improve team work for both players and the commander while making sentries play their role in the field.
1. Get rid of turrets. 2. Change them back. 3. Bring turrets from NS1 to NS2.
This is what the community is asking UW for right now, So UW will be doing this:
4. Change the turret into something where marines and aliens will look at it and say “wtf is thatâ€.
UW is saying that turret farms were ruining games. “were†this is past tense and clearly if you change them back they will ruin games again because nothing has changed since then. Look at what happen with bile bomb, UW took it off the gorge and tuned the lerk into a B-52. So what happened UW realized they had a bad idea and put it back on the gorge, same thing needs to happen here.
OMG! Why does it have to be so complicated? The current implementation makes them useless. Charlie? Really? We're gonna use those to assault a hive or structure? NOT. Some weird alternative to whips?
They cost res! So what if a comm wants to waste res on them. Keep a limit per power node. <b>Maybe make it so they overheat easy or you have to reload them.</b> Bile bomb is still a great counter. Stomp disable was a great counter. Maybe they should be an 'unlockable' item in the robotics factory. So you have to spend initial res to get them? I dunno. I think where the sentry direction has gone is HORRIBLE. Let us use them for what they are for and find ways to discourage or prevent what they aren't for.
What they should be used for: - Defense. A deterrent to slow down aliens from rush-killing a target like a power or res node. This was not really an issue last time because if the commander wasn't smart about it the aliens could take out the sentry first but still delaying them just enough so the marines could save the target.
What they shouldn't be used for: - Assault. Sentries are by definition a defensive structure FOR SHOOTING MOVING TARGETS. They should track fast and do appropriate damage.
Whatever you do, <b>PLEASE don't make it over complicated</b>.
DY357LXPlaying since day 1. Still can't Comm.EnglandJoin Date: 2002-10-27Member: 1651Members, Constellation
Hopefully this hasn't been suggested already but inform me if it has... here's my (probably poor) idea:
Once you've got the required tech for turrets, you must make a decision... There's 3 branches, and you <i>may only choose 1</i>. (Sorry Charlie! More programming hassles for you!)
<b>Branch 1: Target Enemy Lifeforms</b> - All turrets now target enemy lifeforms. Structures are ignored. Ideals for Skulks eating Infantry Portals and general defensive work. Turrets of this nature are generally considered a hassle and require experienced Skulk players to take them down; further upgrading the turret(s) means considerably more time and effort is required from Skulk(s). Further upgrading this tree increases rate of fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 2: Target Enemy Structures</b> - All turrets now target enemy structures. Lifeforms are ignored. Ideal for killing whips etc. Faster damage than an ARC, deploys/builds faster, but doesn't do as much damage and dies easier. Further upgrading this branch increases rate fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 3: Defensive</b> - Turrets target both enemy lifeforms and structures but their rate of fire is slow and their damage is poor compared to the other 2 branches. Taking this branch will also electrify your turrets. Occasionally shocking attackers. (Every X seconds.) A single Skulk will lose around 30-50% of their health (softening them up and wasting their time). Further upgrading this tree increases the pulse/shock rate, armor/resistance or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
So yeah, there's my idea(s). Fine-tuning is probably required and there's likely to be a typo or two in there.
Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on what the turrets should do... maybe it's possible to (almost) cater to them all.
More ideas for sentries. <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Make sentries lifeform specific. (Strategic and Tactical)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Lets say a Robotics factory can build 4 types of sentries Each of the 4 types of sentry will do damage to all lifeforms but specialise in high damage to 1 particular lifeform. Obviously the higher lifeform sentries would be more expensive to build/drop. They could each have their own firing sound to help identify the sentry. When you have more time post 1.0 a visual aid. Can only build 1 of each type per robo factory. (Hard Cap) <b><u>This mechanic encourages tactical and strategic deployment of sentries as they are now lifeform situatonal.</u></b>
Recommend changes to each sentry based on the lifeform it specialises in.
<u>Skulks Sentry</u> 10 Res 360 degree targeting. (like NS1) Current firing sound
<u>Fade Sentry.</u> 20 Res Disruption field that affects blink ability (X) radius. 180 degree targeting. Ping sound (disruption field) <u> Onos Sentry.</u> 30 Res 45 degree targeting. specialses in corridors and power nodes Mini gun sound- Burrr BUuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr.
<!--quoteo(post=1979743:date=Sep 18 2012, 10:29 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 18 2012, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just going to throw this out there again: bone shield stops Com from permanently locking down an area with sentries, because no amount of sentries will do damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ THIS! AND...
<!--quoteo(post=1979793:date=Sep 18 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Sep 18 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One idea that I have seen posted several times on the forum that hasn't been acknowledged by UWE is putting a cap on the number of sentries that can be built. 2 turrets per Command Center sounds good to start with. Also, making them slightly beefier.
It seems people would be more happy to try that than the current design.
Plus, it solves the problem of turret spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS!
Maybe even two turrets per robotic factory. This way they can't cover them selves (+ the robotic) and will always have a weak spot, to be counter-able by the aliens.
This solve all the problems!<ul><li>Noobs will see, that they cant be used effective to lock down a complete area. Because every robotic fac you build, creates cover for aliens that you can't cover with only 2 sentries per robotic.</li><li>It will prevent spam. Robotics are huge, it is obvious that you don't want to cover a room with them.</li><li>It will be not annoying for aliens, because there is always a weak spot where this two sentries won't cover each other OR the robotics. It creates a challenge of finding the blind spot.</li></ul> Some little tweaks could be made too, like increasing the aiming of the sentries. So, they need a second to focus on an alien, but then doesn't lose that alien and hit it actually. Decreasing the health of robotic factories. Increasing the health of them when upgraded to ARC-producers.
The obvious solution simply is a hard cap per robo. Offense sentries will never work.
If Sentries are going to be tied to a structure or the Power Node, graphics that shows that relationship is needed. Not only on a text message for the Comm saying "limit reached". I propose cabling. A cable is drawn like an (uhm, lacking the words here) irregular, non-linear "line" on the ground from the structure/Power Node to the Sentry. That way the Comm and the players on both teams are fully aware of what is powering the Sentry.
<!--quoteo(post=1979915:date=Sep 19 2012, 04:18 AM:name=DY357LX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DY357LX @ Sep 19 2012, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully this hasn't been suggested already but inform me if it has... here's my (probably poor) idea:
Once you've got the required tech for turrets, you must make a decision... There's 3 branches, and you <i>may only choose 1</i>. (Sorry Charlie! More programming hassles for you!)
<b>Branch 1: Target Enemy Lifeforms</b> - All turrets now target enemy lifeforms. Structures are ignored. Ideals for Skulks eating Infantry Portals and general defensive work. Turrets of this nature are generally considered a hassle and require experienced Skulk players to take them down; further upgrading the turret(s) means considerably more time and effort is required from Skulk(s). Further upgrading this tree increases rate of fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 2: Target Enemy Structures</b> - All turrets now target enemy structures. Lifeforms are ignored. Ideal for killing whips etc. Faster damage than an ARC, deploys/builds faster, but doesn't do as much damage and dies easier. Further upgrading this branch increases rate fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 3: Defensive</b> - Turrets target both enemy lifeforms and structures but their rate of fire is slow and their damage is poor compared to the other 2 branches. Taking this branch will also electrify your turrets. Occasionally shocking attackers. (Every X seconds.) A single Skulk will lose around 30-50% of their health (softening them up and wasting their time). Further upgrading this tree increases the pulse/shock rate, armor/resistance or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
So yeah, there's my idea(s). Fine-tuning is probably required and there's likely to be a typo or two in there.
Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on what the turrets should do... maybe it's possible to (almost) cater to them all.
I'll go back to lurking now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1980014:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:27 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Sep 19 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More ideas for sentries. <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Make sentries lifeform specific. (Strategic and Tactical)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Lets say a Robotics factory can build 4 types of sentries Each of the 4 types of sentry will do damage to all lifeforms but specialise in high damage to 1 particular lifeform. Obviously the higher lifeform sentries would be more expensive to build/drop. They could each have their own firing sound to help identify the sentry. When you have more time post 1.0 a visual aid. Can only build 1 of each type per robo factory. (Hard Cap) <b><u>This mechanic encourages tactical and strategic deployment of sentries as they are now lifeform situatonal.</u></b>
Recommend changes to each sentry based on the lifeform it specialises in.
<u>Skulks Sentry</u> 10 Res 360 degree targeting. (like NS1) Current firing sound
<u>Fade Sentry.</u> 20 Res Disruption field that affects blink ability (X) radius. 180 degree targeting. Ping sound (disruption field) <u> Onos Sentry.</u> 30 Res 45 degree targeting. specialses in corridors and power nodes Mini gun sound- Burrr BUuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the these "variant" are interesting ideas but it just over-complicates things and most of these sentry roles overlap, it just turns into a cluster######. This isn't tower defense. Also, how dare you not give the gorge an anti-gorge plastic sentry that's immune to bilebomb? :)
NS1 had it right, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Bring sentries back to the pre-battery era, keep the 5 res cost and limit them per CC or powernode as has been suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1980131:date=Sep 19 2012, 12:54 PM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Sep 19 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Sentries are going to be tied to a structure or the Power Node, graphics that shows that relationship is needed. Not only on a text message for the Comm saying "limit reached". I propose cabling. A cable is drawn like an (uhm, lacking the words here) irregular, non-linear "line" on the ground from the structure/Power Node to the Sentry. That way the Comm and the players on both teams are fully aware of what is powering the Sentry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could say the same about all the marine buildings and power nodes and they don't need a cable. It would just cause confusion to have cables from some buildings but not others.
I wish they'd at least run with some of the community suggestions before release as currently it just seems like they gave up and are going to ship with useless sentries. There's been several great ones made, each and every one of them better than any of the attempts UWE implemented the last few months. If all of them fail, then sure, conclude sentries don't work from a design perspective and need to be taken out of the game, but surely no one at UWE honestly believes that?
You can't run with some poor attempts to 'address' sentries and then conclude having sentries in the game DESTROYS public play, that they may as well be taken out, that's just sad. Sentries had 1, JUST ONE, issue namely that they were being spammed, somehow that warranted a complete redesign of the sentry, rather than an honest and sincere attempt to solely fix the issue of spam without touching the base entity. Every new 'design' of the sentry you have tried turns out to be ######tier than the last one and it's gotten to the point where most people just wish you implemented a '######' solution like a hardcap so that we could at least get proper sentries back.
<!--quoteo(post=1980137:date=Sep 19 2012, 11:27 AM:name=Onii-chan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onii-chan @ Sep 19 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could say the same about all the marine buildings and power nodes and they don't need a cable. It would just cause confusion to have cables from some buildings but not others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe, but if you get to build X Sentries per structure (Sentry Battery or Robotics) you might build more of those main structures in order to build more Sentries. Which Sentry that is powered by what structure won't be clear.
Just wanted to chime in on the whole battery mess. I agree with a couple posts in here on how to change em (limit them per room, or factory) and really dislike their current implementation. I mean really, I am super confuse don the design decision in this case. I played a lot of NS1 and soon I will have played way more NS2. NS2 has been lucky so far as to have had more interesting design than NS1, by far, the ARC is a prime example of this IMO. But the sentry battery thing seems derivative of the ARC and really overlapping. Marines have lots of Siege and on average no static defense beyond marines themselves. Yet aliens have whips,crags, and watnot. I can understand that marines are ranged in their firing, but that is not a tried and true method of defense in all cases. Static defense of a certain sort is needed. There are many ways to make PVStructure fun (grenade toss from the whip for example), the devs need to think in this same way about sentries.
Perhaps they are motion detecting and do not attack slow moving targets or something. TADA!!!!
I haven't seen sentries "ruin" a game since 1.04, when someone in my clan decided he wanted to see just how many he could fit in Bast's Marine Start. He had the server down to about 5fps before the whole thing locked up. I've had no problems with sentries in any of the recent builds I've played - whatever tweaks have been made, they've pretty much done what they're supposed to do (discourage skulk-ninjas).
And somehow, no one has yet pointed out the fact that PUGs can't aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1980456:date=Sep 19 2012, 05:25 PM:name=Dictator93)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dictator93 @ Sep 19 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But the sentry battery thing seems derivative of the ARC and really overlapping. Marines have lots of Siege and on average no static defense beyond marines themselves. Yet aliens have whips,crags, and watnot. I can understand that marines are ranged in their firing, but that is not a tried and true method of defense in all cases. Static defense of a certain sort is needed. There are many ways to make PVStructure fun (grenade toss from the whip for example), the devs need to think in this same way about sentries.
Perhaps they are motion detecting and do not attack slow moving targets or something. TADA!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this
Sentries were in no way unbalanced. ARCs and sentries now overlap, and ARCs are just way better at that job than sentries. Hell, MARINES are better at clearing structures than the sentries. At least ARCs clear structures way faster than marines, and have the upshot of shooting through walls.
Just put sentries back to how they were, assuming you can fix the targeting problems they had.
People keep suggesting this and I think they have haven't really thought it through, or do not read or something, so I am going to try and deal with this once again.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=1980948:date=Sep 20 2012, 10:36 PM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 20 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People keep suggesting this and I think they have haven't really thought it through, or do not read or something, so I am going to try and deal with this once again.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have a unit limit though, that limits the number of possible strategies.
This is true, but that value is applied to a dynamic where you can increase/lower it depending on events happening in the game. While there is a hard cap of 200 units, it is not often you would reach it anyways. You definitely wouldn't in games like Supreme Commander and that game is all about massive amounts of units.
Not that the sentry would be considered a unit to begin with though. The Arc might, but even that isn't hard capped.
EDIT: I should also mention I don't like the unit cap in Starcraft because of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1980948:date=Sep 20 2012, 10:36 PM:name=Blasphemy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blasphemy @ Sep 20 2012, 10:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People keep suggesting this and I think they have haven't really thought it through, or do not read or something, so I am going to try and deal with this once again.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm usually against hard caps, but this is more of a soft cap based on powernodes. You really don't need more than 3-4 turrets per room, any more will just be abused for endgame marine bunkering, assuming they're brought back to the pre-battery levels with HP buffed slightly.
A cap may not even be needed even then because bilebomb nukes buildings, but as was said: It's better to have them underpowered and rarely used than overpowered and abused, better safe than sorry.
Comments
TF has sentries yet both teams have range weapons therefore my suggestion of using the skulks parasite and gorges spit to cause slight misses in the sentry firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well im not sure i can let that count in Cory´s(actually lets say UWE´s) defence, it just shows, that they have been listening to people, who dont even want to play NS, just some dumbed down arcade team deathmatch.
which is fine, they should be able to play their deathmatches, the combatmod allready is in the works, but to actually sabotage the real NS is realy low of these community members.(<- i was about to delete that because its not a nice thing to say, but maybe people should think about what the mainNS is supposed to be, before they complain about things they dont like about it.)
so yeah there are different parts of the community but it shouldnt be so easy to confuse the devs about basic mechanics like a defence turret.
Here is a link to it if you're interested.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121229" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=121229</a>
The sentry's currently do not work as a good offensive utility since you gain so much more control and dps using arch's that fulfill the same roll better.
How you will make sentry's viable without taking them out of the game completely is going to be vary tough I'm sure, Lets increase the range with sentry placement from the batteries and make them so you can place them on creep, also reduce build time ( not sure how fast they are now but make them so it doesn't take longer then 8 seconds for the batteries and sentry combined.
Sorry if this has all already been said i skipped all the posts since I seen this on the dev tracker.
Sentry spam NEVER won games, even back then. But somehow, instead of simply addressing the annoyance that was sentry spam, UWE interpreted the 'issue' as sentries overall, i.e EVEN from a design perspective, being problematic. (Which is something the community NEVER, not ONCE, and I can know since I have been here since the start pretty much, highlighted as an issue)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just bring back the NS1 sentry. Done.
Simple, easy to understand, doesn't drive the commander nuts placing it, simply works.
A circle strafing skulk will kill it with no damage taken.
Anything bigger will easily be able to tank the damage from the sentry to kill it.
Just make it that once there are 3 or more sentries, their rate of fire starts decreasing the more sentries are present. Lore is they drain too much power from the room's power node to be efficient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple yet elegant solution. Yet no one at UWE has thought of this. Instead they went with all kinds of far-fetched and confusing attempts to address the sentry 'problem'. PLEASE UWE, why can't we just try something simple like this... Please listen to the community in this
If the game has progressed to the point where Marines have an excess of tres, and the Aliens lose their second Hive, what is the chance for a comeback in that scenario for the Aliens even if there are no Sentries? I'd wager it's somewhere around 2%.
One idea that I have seen posted several times on the forum that hasn't been acknowledged by UWE is putting a cap on the number of sentries that can be built. 2 turrets per Command Center sounds good to start with. Also, making them slightly beefier.
It seems people would be more happy to try that than the current design.
Plus, it solves the problem of turret spam.
Also has there ever been a mod to turn sentry's into flamethrowers instead, that could be away to get back at the fades coming in and out of your base constantly by sapping them with damage over time plus nailing there adrenaline, could be vary useful early game with those fades, make its so they get hit even in blink.
This constant turtle this farm that argument is getting boring. Aliens can use long range attacks, fast running, stomping, bombing and blinking. Marines deal with that, let aliens deal with bullets and please stop dumbing the game down.
- replace commander built sentries with "sentry kits", which are player deployed objects that take up either a) primary weapons slot or b) fourth weapon slot (the slot previously reserved for mines) but always slow down the marine as much as a flamethrower would if he had one out.
- sentries are placed like mines on the ground, when placed they are deployed quite slowly as to make it impossible to push with it without getting a wave of aliens spawns on you. Sentries can only be repaired using the "sentry tool" which is what the sentry kit is replaced with when the sentry is placed down. This tool can also be used to undeploy them, which can be used to change the direction of a sentry or carry it elsewhere. This does not recharge its energy however.
- Energy is a resource that the sentry uses when placed in an unpowered room. It is drained really slowly unless it is firing. The sentry has unlimited ammo otherwise. It takes a while to switch to battery energy when a room just becomes unpowered, this short time leaves it vulnerable, and lasts about as long as it takes for the emergency lights to turn on. This is so that the ambush mechanic of dark rooms is kept.
- there is a limit of one sentry per marine. When a marine purchases a sentry kit, there is a UI that comes up that shows the sentry's health, firing status, and energy if running in an unpowered room.
- This new sentry kit mechanic is useful as it helps players establish roles and you can use sentries both offensively and defensively. The commander can participate by dropping powerpacks to give sentries power in unpowered rooms or by helping keep the "engineer" alive by issuing orders or dropping supplies. He can also purchase sentry kits for his team and direct them where he wants them to be placed if he so desires.
This borrows from both TF2 and Quake Wars: ET. I think it would improve team work for both players and the commander while making sentries play their role in the field.
2. Change them back.
3. Bring turrets from NS1 to NS2.
This is what the community is asking UW for right now, So UW will be doing this:
4. Change the turret into something where marines and aliens will look at it and say “wtf is thatâ€.
UW is saying that turret farms were ruining games. “were†this is past tense and clearly if you change them back they will ruin games again because nothing has changed since then. Look at what happen with bile bomb, UW took it off the gorge and tuned the lerk into a B-52. So what happened UW realized they had a bad idea and put it back on the gorge, same thing needs to happen here.
They cost res! So what if a comm wants to waste res on them. Keep a limit per power node. <b>Maybe make it so they overheat easy or you have to reload them.</b> Bile bomb is still a great counter. Stomp disable was a great counter. Maybe they should be an 'unlockable' item in the robotics factory. So you have to spend initial res to get them? I dunno. I think where the sentry direction has gone is HORRIBLE. Let us use them for what they are for and find ways to discourage or prevent what they aren't for.
What they should be used for:
- Defense. A deterrent to slow down aliens from rush-killing a target like a power or res node. This was not really an issue last time because if the commander wasn't smart about it the aliens could take out the sentry first but still delaying them just enough so the marines could save the target.
What they shouldn't be used for:
- Assault. Sentries are by definition a defensive structure FOR SHOOTING MOVING TARGETS. They should track fast and do appropriate damage.
Whatever you do, <b>PLEASE don't make it over complicated</b>.
Once you've got the required tech for turrets, you must make a decision...
There's 3 branches, and you <i>may only choose 1</i>. (Sorry Charlie! More programming hassles for you!)
<b>Branch 1: Target Enemy Lifeforms</b> - All turrets now target enemy lifeforms. Structures are ignored.
Ideals for Skulks eating Infantry Portals and general defensive work. Turrets of this nature are generally
considered a hassle and require experienced Skulk players to take them down; further upgrading the turret(s)
means considerably more time and effort is required from Skulk(s).
Further upgrading this tree increases rate of fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 2: Target Enemy Structures</b> - All turrets now target enemy structures. Lifeforms are ignored. Ideal for
killing whips etc. Faster damage than an ARC, deploys/builds faster, but doesn't do as much damage and dies easier.
Further upgrading this branch increases rate fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 3: Defensive</b> - Turrets target both enemy lifeforms and structures but their rate of fire is slow and their
damage is poor compared to the other 2 branches. Taking this branch will also electrify your turrets. Occasionally
shocking attackers. (Every X seconds.) A single Skulk will lose around 30-50% of their health (softening them up
and wasting their time).
Further upgrading this tree increases the pulse/shock rate, armor/resistance or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
So yeah, there's my idea(s). Fine-tuning is probably required and there's likely to be a typo or two in there.
Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on what the turrets should do... maybe it's possible to (almost) cater to them all.
I'll go back to lurking now.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Make sentries lifeform specific. (Strategic and Tactical)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Lets say a Robotics factory can build 4 types of sentries
Each of the 4 types of sentry will do damage to all lifeforms but specialise in high damage to 1 particular lifeform.
Obviously the higher lifeform sentries would be more expensive to build/drop.
They could each have their own firing sound to help identify the sentry. When you have more time post 1.0 a visual aid.
Can only build 1 of each type per robo factory. (Hard Cap)
<b><u>This mechanic encourages tactical and strategic deployment of sentries as they are now lifeform situatonal.</u></b>
Recommend changes to each sentry based on the lifeform it specialises in.
<u>Skulks Sentry</u>
10 Res
360 degree targeting. (like NS1)
Current firing sound
<u>Lerk Sentry</u>
15 Res
Fires FLAK Rounds
360 degree targeting.
Shotgun sound
<u>Fade Sentry.</u>
20 Res
Disruption field that affects blink ability (X) radius.
180 degree targeting.
Ping sound (disruption field)
<u>
Onos Sentry.</u>
30 Res
45 degree targeting.
specialses in corridors and power nodes
Mini gun sound- Burrr BUuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr.
^ THIS! AND...
<!--quoteo(post=1979793:date=Sep 18 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Sep 18 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One idea that I have seen posted several times on the forum that hasn't been acknowledged by UWE is putting a cap on the number of sentries that can be built. 2 turrets per Command Center sounds good to start with. Also, making them slightly beefier.
It seems people would be more happy to try that than the current design.
Plus, it solves the problem of turret spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS!
Maybe even two turrets per robotic factory. This way they can't cover them selves (+ the robotic) and will always have a weak spot, to be counter-able by the aliens.
This solve all the problems!<ul><li>Noobs will see, that they cant be used effective to lock down a complete area. Because every robotic fac you build, creates cover for aliens that you can't cover with only 2 sentries per robotic.</li><li>It will prevent spam. Robotics are huge, it is obvious that you don't want to cover a room with them.</li><li>It will be not annoying for aliens, because there is always a weak spot where this two sentries won't cover each other OR the robotics. It creates a challenge of finding the blind spot.</li></ul>
Some little tweaks could be made too, like increasing the aiming of the sentries. So, they need a second to focus on an alien, but then doesn't lose that alien and hit it actually. Decreasing the health of robotic factories. Increasing the health of them when upgraded to ARC-producers.
The obvious solution simply is a hard cap per robo. Offense sentries will never work.
Once you've got the required tech for turrets, you must make a decision...
There's 3 branches, and you <i>may only choose 1</i>. (Sorry Charlie! More programming hassles for you!)
<b>Branch 1: Target Enemy Lifeforms</b> - All turrets now target enemy lifeforms. Structures are ignored.
Ideals for Skulks eating Infantry Portals and general defensive work. Turrets of this nature are generally
considered a hassle and require experienced Skulk players to take them down; further upgrading the turret(s)
means considerably more time and effort is required from Skulk(s).
Further upgrading this tree increases rate of fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 2: Target Enemy Structures</b> - All turrets now target enemy structures. Lifeforms are ignored. Ideal for
killing whips etc. Faster damage than an ARC, deploys/builds faster, but doesn't do as much damage and dies easier.
Further upgrading this branch increases rate fire or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
<b>Branch 3: Defensive</b> - Turrets target both enemy lifeforms and structures but their rate of fire is slow and their
damage is poor compared to the other 2 branches. Taking this branch will also electrify your turrets. Occasionally
shocking attackers. (Every X seconds.) A single Skulk will lose around 30-50% of their health (softening them up
and wasting their time).
Further upgrading this tree increases the pulse/shock rate, armor/resistance or damage. (Commander may pick only one.)
So yeah, there's my idea(s). Fine-tuning is probably required and there's likely to be a typo or two in there.
Everyone seems to have a strong opinion on what the turrets should do... maybe it's possible to (almost) cater to them all.
I'll go back to lurking now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1980014:date=Sep 19 2012, 07:27 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Sep 19 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More ideas for sentries.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Make sentries lifeform specific. (Strategic and Tactical)</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Lets say a Robotics factory can build 4 types of sentries
Each of the 4 types of sentry will do damage to all lifeforms but specialise in high damage to 1 particular lifeform.
Obviously the higher lifeform sentries would be more expensive to build/drop.
They could each have their own firing sound to help identify the sentry. When you have more time post 1.0 a visual aid.
Can only build 1 of each type per robo factory. (Hard Cap)
<b><u>This mechanic encourages tactical and strategic deployment of sentries as they are now lifeform situatonal.</u></b>
Recommend changes to each sentry based on the lifeform it specialises in.
<u>Skulks Sentry</u>
10 Res
360 degree targeting. (like NS1)
Current firing sound
<u>Lerk Sentry</u>
15 Res
Fires FLAK Rounds
360 degree targeting.
Shotgun sound
<u>Fade Sentry.</u>
20 Res
Disruption field that affects blink ability (X) radius.
180 degree targeting.
Ping sound (disruption field)
<u>
Onos Sentry.</u>
30 Res
45 degree targeting.
specialses in corridors and power nodes
Mini gun sound- Burrr BUuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrr.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the these "variant" are interesting ideas but it just over-complicates things and most of these sentry roles overlap, it just turns into a cluster######. This isn't tower defense.
Also, how dare you not give the gorge an anti-gorge plastic sentry that's immune to bilebomb? :)
NS1 had it right, stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
Bring sentries back to the pre-battery era, keep the 5 res cost and limit them per CC or powernode as has been suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1980131:date=Sep 19 2012, 12:54 PM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ Sep 19 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1980131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Sentries are going to be tied to a structure or the Power Node, graphics that shows that relationship is needed. Not only on a text message for the Comm saying "limit reached". I propose cabling. A cable is drawn like an (uhm, lacking the words here) irregular, non-linear "line" on the ground from the structure/Power Node to the Sentry. That way the Comm and the players on both teams are fully aware of what is powering the Sentry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could say the same about all the marine buildings and power nodes and they don't need a cable.
It would just cause confusion to have cables from some buildings but not others.
You can't run with some poor attempts to 'address' sentries and then conclude having sentries in the game DESTROYS public play, that they may as well be taken out, that's just sad. Sentries had 1, JUST ONE, issue namely that they were being spammed, somehow that warranted a complete redesign of the sentry, rather than an honest and sincere attempt to solely fix the issue of spam without touching the base entity. Every new 'design' of the sentry you have tried turns out to be ######tier than the last one and it's gotten to the point where most people just wish you implemented a '######' solution like a hardcap so that we could at least get proper sentries back.
It would just cause confusion to have cables from some buildings but not others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, but if you get to build X Sentries per structure (Sentry Battery or Robotics) you might build more of those main structures in order to build more Sentries. Which Sentry that is powered by what structure won't be clear.
Perhaps they are motion detecting and do not attack slow moving targets or something. TADA!!!!
I haven't seen sentries "ruin" a game since 1.04, when someone in my clan decided he wanted to see just how many he could fit in Bast's Marine Start. He had the server down to about 5fps before the whole thing locked up. I've had no problems with sentries in any of the recent builds I've played - whatever tweaks have been made, they've pretty much done what they're supposed to do (discourage skulk-ninjas).
And somehow, no one has yet pointed out the fact that PUGs can't aim.
Perhaps they are motion detecting and do not attack slow moving targets or something. TADA!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to this
Sentries were in no way unbalanced.
ARCs and sentries now overlap, and ARCs are just way better at that job than sentries.
Hell, MARINES are better at clearing structures than the sentries. At least ARCs clear structures way faster than marines, and have the upshot of shooting through walls.
Just put sentries back to how they were, assuming you can fix the targeting problems they had.
If the skulk dont play smart the sentry should take him down.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have a unit limit though, that limits the number of possible strategies.
Not that the sentry would be considered a unit to begin with though. The Arc might, but even that isn't hard capped.
EDIT: I should also mention I don't like the unit cap in Starcraft because of that.
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>There should never be a hard cap to the amount of structures in an RTS for any reason.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
There is a reason you aren't limited to three Bunkers or two Barracks in games like Starcraft. That is because it is a bad idea. You limit the number of possible strategies when you do unimaginative quick fix solutions to a problem more complex than that. You limit the replay value of a game instead of adding more alternatives which could provide more variety and game depth. And an RTS game, which this game is, thrives off of variety of strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm usually against hard caps, but this is more of a soft cap based on powernodes.
You really don't need more than 3-4 turrets per room, any more will just be abused for endgame marine bunkering, assuming they're brought back to the pre-battery levels with HP buffed slightly.
A cap may not even be needed even then because bilebomb nukes buildings, but as was said: It's better to have them underpowered and rarely used than overpowered and abused, better safe than sorry.