<!--quoteo(post=1978893:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:17 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raven_XI @ Sep 17 2012, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1978893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you kidding? Looking at my K/D ratio is what makes me feel good about my pathetic existence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This thread is totally right. I just can't handle my k:d being visible to so many people. The pressure is too much and this one time someone said something about my k:d in this video game over the internet. I just couldn't handle it. I think NS2 sells less copies of the game than it would if this stat were taken out.
And while we're on this topic, there are several other aspects of the scoreboard I personally find upsetting and just plain unneeded.
Score is a useless stat. It's easy to hang back and bite powernodes or kill cysts the entire game and not actually do anything for your team. You can even snipe last hits to get more score!!! OMG ! so unfair! Score is a really meaningless stat and they should remove it from the scoreboard.
I think ping being on the scoreboard is really upsetting too. Ping is meaningless and it should only be displayed to yourself, not the whole team. Because ping is on the public scoreboard, it allows discrimination toward people who do not live close to any servers.
Also personal resources should be removed too. I don't want some noob commander yelling at me to go gorge when I don't want to. It's unfair and I feel belittled as a person. People should not be allowed to see <i>my</i> personal resources.
And that NS2 stats site? wow what an abomination. It's SO offensive. I just can't stop thinking about my stats being available for the <u><b>whole world</b></u> to see! I keep losing sleep over it and it's really affecting my ability to function. UWE should definitely take that site down. It's horrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1979193:date=Sep 17 2012, 01:20 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Sep 17 2012, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread is totally right. I just can't handle my k:d being visible to so many people. The pressure is too much and this one time someone said something about my k:d in this video game over the internet. I just couldn't handle it. I think NS2 sells less copies of the game than it would if this stat were taken out.
And while we're on this topic, there are several other aspects of the scoreboard I personally find upsetting and just plain unneeded.
Score is a useless stat. It's easy to hang back and bite powernodes or kill cysts the entire game and not actually do anything for your team. You can even snipe last hits to get more score!!! OMG ! so unfair! Score is a really meaningless stat and they should remove it from the scoreboard.
I think ping being on the scoreboard is really upsetting too. Ping is meaningless and it should only be displayed to yourself, not the whole team. Because ping is on the public scoreboard, it allows discrimination toward people who do not live close to any servers.
Also personal resources should be removed too. I don't want some noob commander yelling at me to go gorge when I don't want to. It's unfair and I feel belittled as a person. People should not be allowed to see <i>my</i> personal resources.
And that NS2 stats site? wow what an abomination. It's SO offensive. I just can't stop thinking about my stats being available for the <u><b>whole world</b></u> to see! I keep losing sleep over it and it's really affecting my ability to function. UWE should definitely take that site down. It's horrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would rather see scoring be done better. Use the current area but change what they do.
Total Score : Teamwork Score : Combat Score
Total is Teamwork+Combat scores
Teamwork score is objectives completed and defeating structures (add assist values as well)
Combat score is damage to other players (add assist values)
I think this would promote better teamwork and less reliance on either k/d or focus on objectives score by combining the two. This way those who are on the top are doing both well.
I have a really simple solution which can satisfy everyone.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them. If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
<!--quoteo(post=1979205:date=Sep 17 2012, 03:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a really simple solution which can satisfy everyone.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them. If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has less to do with k/d and more to do with better scoring and better scoring information. I guess I don't care if they keep or toss k/d. I just want to have the scoring system more accurately reflect how the player is doing. Its ok now, but it misses a lot of information.
I can honestly say that even if I do go off rambo'ing, and pump out a 7+ ratio, that I have never seen a person with a lower KD ratio score higher. I'd always end up having a higher score as well. (Just by killing random harvesters and structures to bait the aliens over) I like the information :)
<!--quoteo(post=1979193:date=Sep 17 2012, 09:20 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Sep 17 2012, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that NS2 stats site? wow what an abomination. It's SO offensive. I just can't stop thinking about my stats being available for the <u><b>whole world</b></u> to see! I keep losing sleep over it and it's really affecting my ability to function. UWE should definitely take that site down. It's horrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say that sarcastically but they actually talked about putting in an option to hide your stats <facepalm>
@OP It's in there for players like me (and any FPS) who want to know. And for any spectators. If you don't want to see how bad you're doing, don't hit tab. >_>
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Sad to say (because I wish better strategy and comm skill could do more to influence the game than they currently can), but Argathor is right; improving your kdr is the single most important thing a NS2 player can do to help their team win. However, it is team kdr, rather than individual kdr, that is the most relevant to look at in any given game. Quite simply, killing more enemy players then they kill your players makes all aspects of the game (expansion, defense, teching, etc) easier.
That being said, there is a small window for a team with a worse team kdr to still win using positioning, build order, comm skill, teamwork, or surprise (nexzil's win vs arc or pokemaster's win vs arc are good examples). However, that window is small, such that improving your kdr is still the most important skill for winning in NS2.
You know, I see this type of rubbish ... inability to actually argue points, picking fights instead of rational debate, trolling, snide remarks on the League of Legends forums... the difference is I expect it on there...
... not here.
I am <b>NOT</b> advocating the removal of stats, of any form of score keeping, read my posts... you know actually READ. You will then see I want other stuff also acknowledged as doing my part in the game, healing, supporting ( like when I used umbra and blocked off the marine bullets from fragging the retreating Onos, the marines had to settle for a Lerk kill instead ), putting up hydras in defensive postitions using up my pres... not hogging pres so I can go Fade and improve my KDR.
... but nooo you childish sarcastic bunch just have to concentrate only on killing, just like any good little CoD player base. Go ahead and quote where I said REMOVE ALL STATS, go ahead.
Seems to me the ones that are so scared of any change to the score system are those that are too busy basking in the glory of a high KDR and dont consider any of thier teammates contributiions, this is why they cant debate my points...only attack in sarcastic (and stupid) manners.
Simple , a pack of skulks ambush 1 marine ... is it fair only 1 skulk recieves acknowledgement of that kill ? Is it fair a Gorge healing his teammates, to allow his teammates to get a higher KDR should be considered a lesser player because his KDR is lower ? The player that blocks the enemy fire so the much more valuable Onos can retreat...is he a noob for dying and reducing his KDR ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979222:date=Sep 17 2012, 04:36 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 17 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sad to say (because I wish better strategy and comm skill could do more to influence the game than they currently can), but Argathor is right; improving your kdr is the single most important thing a NS2 player can do to help their team win. However, it is team kdr, rather than individual kdr, that is the most relevant to look at in any given game. Quite simply, killing more enemy players then they kill your players makes all aspects of the game (expansion, defense, teching, etc) easier.
That being said, there is a small window for a team with a worse team kdr to still win using positioning, build order, comm skill, teamwork, or surprise (nexzil's win vs arc or pokemaster's win vs arc are good examples). However, that window is small, such that improving your kdr is still the most important skill for winning in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree. Often, the strategic component of NS2 means that your team fights with an overwhelming advantage, or that they simply fight where there is no resistance at all. Learning to aim makes you a better unit, a better solider, but that only matters when you're fighting in near equal strengths.
It's true to say that learning to aim and dodge is an important skill, but it's disingenuous to say that aiming ability clearly trumps strategy in importance. Better strats can beat better aim even if the aiming gap is large. The problem is that most high-profile NS2 players and teams have had years to learn how to strat, but are still getting the feel for the framerate and movement mechanics of this particular build. Thus, the gap between strategic skill tends to be small while the gap between fighting skill can vary substantially.
I think caring about your K:D ratio in some ways promotes better play. One example: if you care about your K:D you might be more likely to pick your battles.
I know that the ideal solution is to care about helping your team, and this would replace caring about your K:D in the argument above; but I think for new players it's easier to care about your K:D, and so it can indirectly lead them to be better team players.
<!--quoteo(post=1979226:date=Sep 17 2012, 05:45 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 17 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, I see this type of rubbish ... inability to actually argue points, picking fights instead of rational debate, trolling, snide remarks on the League of Legends forums... the difference is I expect it on there...
... not here.
I am <b>NOT</b> advocating the removal of stats, of any form of score keeping, read my posts... you know actually READ. You will then see I want other stuff also acknowledged as doing my part in the game, healing, supporting ( like when I used umbra and blocked off the marine bullets from fragging the retreating Onos, the marines had to settle for a Lerk kill instead ), putting up hydras in defensive postitions using up my pres... not hogging pres so I can go Fade and improve my KDR.
... but nooo you childish sarcastic bunch just have to concentrate only on killing, just like any good little CoD player base. Go ahead and quote where I said REMOVE ALL STATS, go ahead.
Seems to me the ones that are so scared of any change to the score system are those that are too busy basking in the glory of a high KDR and dont consider any of thier teammates contributiions, this is why they cant debate my points...only attack in sarcastic (and stupid) manners.
Simple , a pack of skulks ambush 1 marine ... is it fair only 1 skulk recieves acknowledgement of that kill ? Is it fair a Gorge healing his teammates, to allow his teammates to get a higher KDR should be considered a lesser player because his KDR is lower ? The player that blocks the enemy fire so the much more valuable Onos can retreat...is he a noob for dying and reducing his KDR ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible post. You ARE advocating the removal of stats when you say:
<!--quoteo(post=1979007:date=Sep 17 2012, 08:39 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 17 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said earlier , keep individual KDR and only show it to the individual player so that player can use the stats to judge thier own play as they see fit... simply do not display it to everyone.
I am pretty sure no one is so obsessed with e-peen as to need a match wide visible KDR, right ?
Commanders ? Nah, commanders will note players that are following orders and getting things done and issue equipment on that basis... not on a KDR basis.
A pretty good solution and everyone is happy... imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here you're advocating the removal of 11 out of 12 peoples KDRs when most people seem to be able to objectively view KDR within the context of the entire game. Kills and deaths both convey important information about how the game is trending and who is the most dangerous in certain aspects of the game. If you want to improve the score aspect to include damage, healing, and other metrics then that is GREAT. I think nearly everyone here will agree with you that a general score system should include these, along with many other, things.
You're making bad assumptions when you claim that people who enjoy the information gained from public kills and deaths are only doing it to KDR ######. You're speaking to many of the most competitive players in NS2. There's nothing about stat whoring in these posts. These people want to win above all else, even a high KDR.
<!--quoteo(post=1979085:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:05 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 17 2012, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I counter this by arguing those who insist on KDR (or at least visible to all KDR) just want something to wave in front of other players, instead of playing the game for fun they derive fun from waving stats at others which makes for more CoD/BF 3 clones game... stat heavy, KDR waving , teamplay lacking FPS clones.
You didnt even attempt to counter argue how KDR is still reflective despite the fact it awards 1 kill point per kill to the player that delivered the last attack...even if a group of players did damage to that target. A pack skulks ? A squad of marines ? A group of various aliens in an assualt ? Gorges healing...wtf worthless player ? Commanders KDR sucks or is something like 0 / 0 ... worthless player ?
KDR is NOT an accurate reflection of a players contribution to the match, and does not take into account all the other actions performed during the match...
... I even suggested an alternative with the scoring system that would reward players who are skilled with aiming and get score from kills, but nooooo...
... herp derp I kill lots I pwn noobs, your KDR is bad you noob.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep pulling hypothetical BS out of your ass and then claiming the "other guys" are too immature to handle public kills and deaths. From re-reading your posts in this thread, it sounds like you're the one that isn't adult enough to handle public KDR.
<!--quoteo(post=1979182:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:46 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 17 2012, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Re-read that post, did you seriously mean to post that ? I assume you were playing around when you typed that... or smoked up, or drunk.
Come back and post when you have managed to learn to read the posted arguments, and can post an sensible counter point to the given argument...
... seriously, you really think that, wow. You should go see a shrink about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question. I guess i could have sugar coated my previous post a little but what i said is true. If you have fun being a gorge and protect 1 RT all game then I am glad. It may even help your team win. Unfortunately the player on your team who pressures the marines, saves under attack RTs, prevents or destroys forward phase gates, kills the entire marine team 4 or 5 times, kills the jetpackers on their way to kill you and eventually takes out the marines base has done more to help your team win then you have. You are welcome to play the game however you want and contribute how you can, but don't degrade other players achievements by taking them off the scoreboard. It is a team game so be happy for your team instead of resenting their skill, and I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1979228:date=Sep 17 2012, 02:47 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 17 2012, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree. Often, the strategic component of NS2 means that your team fights with an overwhelming advantage, or that they simply fight where there is no resistance at all. Learning to aim makes you a better unit, a better solider, but that only matters when you're fighting in near equal strengths.
It's true to say that learning to aim and dodge is an important skill, but it's disingenuous to say that aiming ability clearly trumps strategy in importance. Better strats can beat better aim even if the aiming gap is large. The problem is that most high-profile NS2 players and teams have had years to learn how to strat, but are still getting the feel for the framerate and movement mechanics of this particular build. Thus, the gap between strategic skill tends to be small while the gap between fighting skill can vary substantially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trust me, I've been searching for any strat or tactic that can overcome a significant kdr deficit since I started in competitive NS2 over a year ago. I haven't found one yet. The closest I've found were: - Multiple obs beacon rushes when it beaconed to the obs rather than the nearest command station - ARC rushes before they were repeatedly nerfed - Close spawns GL rushes when they were assault rifle add-ons
Please, show me a strat or tactic that can overcome a significant skill deficit and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once and for all explain to me how KDR accurately reflects team contributions in all situations where multiple team members engage a single target ? Where some players support the players doing the killing ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesnt for one a single engagment, but over time and over hundreds of encounters, those who are the most accurate, still stand a better chance of gettin that last bullet into the skulk, as they are hitting him for a greater percentage of the time than those that are less accurate / worse at predicting the exit route.
Those team members who are contributing more hits, have this reflected with a higher k:d ratio.
Those team members who are contributing less hits, get the aim practise, sometimes get to steal a kill they barely shot <b>(so higher kills)</b>, get saved a possible death when the more accurate marines shoot <b>(lower deaths)</b> and most importantly, get the pleasure of playing the game.
Comms dont play for score, just to win, i do anyway. I like a positive K:D from jumping out, mines, and clever hydra/clog placements, but i feel no need for my score to be buffed lol if we win, and i was necessary for that win, im happy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain how having a score based system that ALSO takes into account the damage and kills you make, as well as performing team actions is not more fair and accurate ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The accuracy of a single score scoring system, well, im sure it would be perfectly "accurate" ...... im sure it wouldnt forget to carry the 9 when it added it up. Until we knew exactly how such a score system would count each scoring event exactly, we wouldnt have a clue how accurate it would be at scoring the skill of players.
As for "fair" i have a similar confusion, fair to whome? how is this system unfair? everyone gets to play under the same system, no one is hacking the scores, everyone would be playing by the same rules which ever set of rules we used, as long as this happens, any scoring system is fair.
Its not a matter of fairness, or accuracy. Although there are k:d ratios, there is also score, this is more information, not less, and this is better.
Both k:D ratios AND score let the commander know who the best troops are, it lets players know who the best players are (to emulate them if they have any sense), it lets players see stacked teams, it allows for good players, to see how they are stacking up against other good players.
I cant understand why we would want LESS information, when we could have more, especially when the "more" is only 3 numbers (k+d+score).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why does it HAVE to be KDR ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isnt kdr, its kdr, AND score. Why does it HAVE to be JUST score.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you need it to be visible to ALL, why not just visible to yourself for self analysis and improvement ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the reasons i said above, both kdr AND score are helpful aids if they are visible to all.
The commander needs to know who his good soldiers are, which are worth medpacking when they are killing an rt, and which are worth medpacking against skulks.
Other players need to identifiy, follow, help and emulate other better players, and they need to know wether they should be emulsting the style and strategy that he shoot aliens, or bites marines, or wether he should be watching him to see what strategic angle he is working to generate such a high score.
Good players need to rank their own ability against other good players. we cant do this, if nobody knows each others score.
----
I dont give a damn about my k:d ratios, on many rounds i play, i take actions that are detrimental to my kd ratio, but give me score instead. I can think of few actions that are helpful to my team that arent rewarded by score, the game ranks people by score first you know, and a marine suiciding for the upgrade structures can end the game with a very negative kd ratio, but be top of the score board, and have been extreemly helpful to his team, this is also true of a gorge bileing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you need it to be visible to ALL, why not just visible to yourself for self analysis and improvement ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ironically, it promotes teamwork. Say me and players A and B all get the same order to go fight somewhere. All of a sudden, A and B take different routes to get there. If I check their scores (or have noticed one of them has stood out in the game so far) who do you think I'm gonna follow? The one who can take care of himself, or the guy who's died 13 times and has one or two kills? Likewise, if I know I'm moving with someone who's skilled, I trust him to have my back. I'd rather be with someone who can save my ass and I can return the favor.
It's been stated numerous times that the comm needs to know which of his best players have the best chance of staying alive. Medspam and nanoshield are just two things. What about who to give the dangerous ninja mission to?
I keep hearing these claims about e-peen and how awful it is that someone likes to see their scores. What's your argument for actually removing them? It will NOT promote team play, it will NOT stop rambo players, it will NOT stop people who suck from sucking, it will NOT discourage teasing of players that do poorly (of course I hope this wouldn't happen - but it's probably a reality), it will NOT stop people who do well from bragging. Hell, if a player on the other team is doing awesome, I won't even be able to ask for pointers from him anymore, because I won't know which one he was!
Tell me, what are the actual benefits of removing score? I've never seen anyone bragging about their K:D in game, and even if I did, I'd ignore them.
<!--quoteo(post=1979205:date=Sep 17 2012, 12:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a really simple solution which can satisfy everyone.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them. If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One more example of "I dont read, i simply post bull######"
In games people quit or complaining because another guy is killing (doesnt matter if by cheating or if hes simply a good fps player) them and their K/D going down...so they leave the server. And in all this replys i still didnt find any argument <b>for </b>K/D Information... in exception of the e-pen guys who want to show how great they can set the final shot /bite. Counter Strike Global Offensive will be out soon... there you can show how leet you are. Again Natural Selection is a <b>Team Game</b>. No one will win a match alone if his K/D is good. Sure, Kills are important but without support and without the right decission at the right time its useless. So again, please give me arguments for K/D. I simply want to understand why this useless stat is still ingame.
I find it interesting how this argument is relatively segregated post count. Make no mistake about it, after 5 pages this is an argument not a discussion. People who post here a lot tend to by and large support leaving the game as it is, and we have a flood of people who have just showed up crying for the scoreboard to be changed. It's not exact, but it is a trend, and an interesting one.
Wonder if it says anything? Probably not, that'd be trying to generalize an entire compendium of viewpoints into a function of trivial variables, and that's a dangerous thing to do.
<!--quoteo(post=1979390:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:10 AM:name=Ceri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ceri @ Sep 18 2012, 01:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One more example of "I dont read, i simply post bull######"
1)In games people quit or complaining because another guy is killing (doesnt matter if by cheating or if hes simply a good fps player) them and their K/D going down...so they leave the server. 2)And in all this replys i still didnt find any argument <b>for </b>K/D Information... in exception of the e-pen guys who want to show how great they can set the final shot /bite. Counter Strike Global Offensive will be out soon... there you can show how leet you are. 3)Again Natural Selection is a <b>Team Game</b>. No one will win a match alone if his K/D is good. Sure, Kills are important but without support and without the right decission at the right time its useless. So again, please give me arguments for K/D. I simply want to understand why this useless stat is still ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll address these point by point.
1) Please tell us more about the mental thoughts of the other players who are quitting. You seem to think that they're quitting because their K/D is going down. I propose to you that their quitting because they're losing or because they're dying and don't give a ###### about what their KDR looks like. They aren't having fun dying/losing, so they take a break. You're trying to blame this on KDR, but that seems absolutely preposterous to me. I'd bet that most people who leave a game don't give a ###### about their KDR.
2) You haven't found any argument for K/D information? How about the fact that it IS INFORMATION! You can get a general idea of who is doing what and how well based on their scoreboard. If that guy is 0-0, he's the commander. If that other guy has 0 to 2 kills while the rest of his team has 5+ kills, then he's probably playing gorge. If there's some guy going 15-0 then you know you have to shut him down or you'll probably lose the game. If your entire team is sporting a 3:1 KDR, then you know your entire team is probably better at fragging and you can try an early shotgun push. If you're aliens and the team is getting owned with a 0.5 KDR then you know you're going to have to turtle. Maybe have a couple people swap to gorge and drop hydras or not extend out past 2-3 RTs.
3) Natural Selection being a team game does not mean that kills and deaths are irrelevant. You'll never see anyone win a game without any kills. If you spent less time complaining about information and instead learned to understand what it was saying, then you'd grow as a player.
P.S. If you refuse to believe that KDR conveys information, then just ignore it instead of trying to force dumb opinions on people who find great use in public kills and deaths.
<!--quoteo(post=1979234:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:58 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a terrible post. You ARE advocating the removal of stats when you say:
Here you're advocating the removal of 11 out of 12 peoples KDRs when most people seem to be able to objectively view KDR within the context of the entire game. Kills and deaths both convey important information about how the game is trending and who is the most dangerous in certain aspects of the game. If you want to improve the score aspect to include damage, healing, and other metrics then that is GREAT. I think nearly everyone here will agree with you that a general score system should include these, along with many other, things.
You're making bad assumptions when you claim that people who enjoy the information gained from public kills and deaths are only doing it to KDR ######. You're speaking to many of the most competitive players in NS2. There's nothing about stat whoring in these posts. These people want to win above all else, even a high KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That post I was suggesting a mutually amicable solution to all parties, one that allows players to see thier own kills and deaths for self analysis and improvement but withhold that information from the rest of the server. Why do they need to know what other players kills and deaths are ? Commanders will note who is always in the right place or is successfully pushing without looking at the kills and deaths, good players will be sticking out anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1979237:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You keep pulling hypothetical BS out of your ass and then claiming the "other guys" are too immature to handle public kills and deaths. From re-reading your posts in this thread, it sounds like you're the one that isn't adult enough to handle public KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 'hypothetical' situations are actually pretty common place, thats why they come to mind so easily... or have you not seen skulk packs ambushing a rambo ? Or any of the other situations I described on a server ? How is it now a question of my maturity wether or not you can see MY kills and deaths ? What can you extrapulate from seeing OTHER players kills and deaths ? Player xyz dies a lot and doesnt kill lots ? Why do YOU need this information ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979247:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:34 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Sep 17 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question. I guess i could have sugar coated my previous post a little but what i said is true. If you have fun being a gorge and protect 1 RT all game then I am glad. It may even help your team win. Unfortunately the player on your team who pressures the marines, saves under attack RTs, prevents or destroys forward phase gates, kills the entire marine team 4 or 5 times, kills the jetpackers on their way to kill you and eventually takes out the marines base has done more to help your team win then you have. You are welcome to play the game however you want and contribute how you can, but don't degrade other players achievements by taking them off the scoreboard. It is a team game so be happy for your team instead of resenting their skill, and I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a case of sugar coating, its a case of you posted an unbelievably childish comment ... 99.9% of players who see the game will take it seriously... whaaaaat ?!? Are you saying you believe players will see the kills and deaths colums and suddenly take the game seriously, omg this is srsbzns ... hell even if they did that merely proves that players are obsessed with KDR. Then you flapped your gums about Hello Kitty, we dont all share your infatuation with that class of game... sorry.
The Gorge who uses his personal res to go Gorge, then heals the Hive to grow faster so your Fade can get blink faster doesnt get his action reflected in the Kills and Deaths tab, my issue isnt with kills and deaths as so much that it seems to reflect what a players worth is on the team.
KDR is not an accurate system to reflect a players worth to the team, yet the scoreboard suggests it does.
What does it mean to YOU if you see me in game and I have a 10 deaths and 1 kill, how will you adjust YOUR game based on this information ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979088:date=Sep 17 2012, 06:13 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979088"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a good point actually, as a commander I'm more likely to medspam a good player than another one. For that reason alone seeing KD, or at least kills, is a good idea. You can get the most out of a medpack or nano's res by dropping it on the player most likely to get kills or survive with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. But wouldn't it be much better if the points would actually reflect how good a player is, instead a number that tells you who had the most luck in getting the last bullet onto a target? The points can and should be fixed! Simply equally distributed to every player by the amount of damage/build/heal he has done. K/D cant be fixed that easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1979093:date=Sep 17 2012, 06:20 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until they fix performance I think the KD display is meaningless anyway. Not to mention the ever-changing skulk mechanics. I've been playing this game since alpha, and since I got back from my 6 weeks vacation it feels like I can't hit anything any more as a skulk. I don't consider myself a pro player, but I definitely was fairly decent as a skulk. Now, because of the lacking performance and skulk changes I'm absolutely useless and I'm not even enjoying aliens any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know that feel, bro. I encounter this problem nearly every new build. It is easy explained. FPS are fast games, you don't have the time to think how to move as a skulk you do it by reflex. This reflex needs to be trained into your brain. If something little changes in the movement of the skulk, all your trained reflexes are suddenly useless and you don't know exactly why. You just die allot. But this isn't a real problem. Just keep on trying. Your reflexes will be trained for the new mechanics and everything will turn out to be as easy as it was before the change.
And finally, this: <!--quoteo(post=1979203:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Cidman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cidman @ Sep 17 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would rather see scoring be done better. Use the current area but change what they do.
Total Score : Teamwork Score : Combat Score
Total is Teamwork+Combat scores
Teamwork score is objectives completed and defeating structures (add assist values as well)
Combat score is damage to other players (add assist values)
I think this would promote better teamwork and less reliance on either k/d or focus on objectives score by combining the two. This way those who are on the top are doing both well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I don't see a problem in showing or not showing the K/D, the pure numbers are useless. A fade will have a higher K/D as a Skulk etc. A real scoring that not only awards players equally for what they contribute but also differentiate between "skulk killed jetpacker" or "fade killed LMG marine" would be really nice but nearly utopia.
A better scoring system would be more than enough for the first step.
Your claim that an accurate player will get more kills even in a team fight due to being able to put more rounds in than his fellows is debateable, its just as likely a new player will get lucky and fire the last shot that takes down the target after the skilled player has dropped its health low... unless you can take down the target before your squad mates aquire the target, it becomes a question of luck I would say... but it is debatable.
However a scorebased system would still refelct the accurate players skill more, say if a skulk kill was worth 100pts ... you did 80% of the damage and a teammate did the remaining 20%, you would get 80 points and your teammate would get 20...rather than you getting 0 kills and he gets 1 kill. Players who get a high KDR now would still get high scores and it would reflect on the scoreboard... but it leaves room for other means to score points for other team actions, thus reflects other players value.
As to needing to see other players Kills and Deaths...
Commanders dont need that information, a commander will see who is the most usefull players on his team from thier actions... commanders dont press TAB to see hey xyz has a lot of kills I'll medspam him , they notice xyz is at the places he needs to be, doing what is needed and being an asset to the commander.
Other players dont need to see either, it merely perpetuates the confusion that kills and deaths are the only measurement of skill and value in the team it fails to show the value of the other players... basically saying if your not killing the enemy you have no value to this team.
Your comment about players using other players kills and deaths as a basis to evaluate thier own skill merely perpetuates the perception kills and deaths is the only stat of worth, again.
As you say the scoreboard ranks by score, so why cant we judge only by the score ? We then dont need to see other players kills and deaths...its reflected in the score anyways, right ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your claim that an accurate player will get more kills even in a team fight due to being able to put more rounds in than his fellows is debateable, its just as likely a new player will get lucky and fire the last shot that takes down the target after the skilled player has dropped its health low... unless you can take down the target before your squad mates aquire the target, it becomes a question of luck I would say... but it is debatable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skilled player makes less fatal mistakes and finished more opponents before they do that to the said skilled player. A skilled player will usually react quickly in the right way. They will more often be in a better position and more prepared to do a useful thing. They will be more accurate when an opportunity presents it. A good example would be a shotgunner who picks skulks out in close combat or a LMG marine who sprays down skulks by firing at gaps they expect them to move through. It should be clear to everyone, that especially in the long run, skilled players have a higher K/D ratio than less skilled players.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However a scorebased system would still refelct the accurate players skill more, say if a skulk kill was worth 100pts ... you did 80% of the damage and a teammate did the remaining 20%, you would get 80 points and your teammate would get 20...rather than you getting 0 kills and he gets 1 kill. Players who get a high KDR now would still get high scores and it would reflect on the scoreboard... but it leaves room for other means to score points for other team actions, thus reflects other players value.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, having a decent score-system is a great thing too. In addition to K/D.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to needing to see other players Kills and Deaths...
Commanders dont need that information, a commander will see who is the most usefull players on his team from thier actions... commanders dont press TAB to see hey xyz has a lot of kills I'll medspam him , they notice xyz is at the places he needs to be, doing what is needed and being an asset to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a commander I really do want to have that information. I do follow my teams performance both from the scoreboard and of course from following them from top-down perspective. The K/D ratio is useful information and taking it away serves no purpose other than soothe some ruffled feathers. I'd like to draw the conclusion, that your commander-related claims are the result of you wanting to find rationalisations for your beliefs and you not actually knowing, how to properly utilize all the tools the commander has been given.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other players dont need to see either, it merely perpetuates the confusion that kills and deaths are the only measurement of skill and value in the team it fails to show the value of the other players... basically saying if your not killing the enemy you have no value to this team.
Your comment about players using other players kills and deaths as a basis to evaluate thier own skill merely perpetuates the perception kills and deaths is the only stat of worth, again.
As you say the scoreboard ranks by score, so why cant we judge only by the score ? We then dont need to see other players kills and deaths...its reflected in the score anyways, right ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claim the K/D system isn't perfect, and most agree. Most also agree that the score system is in need of some improvements. That is true. But now, here is the tricky part: What harm does the K/D ratio cause? WTF is this, seriously? Who are these mystical players that only view K/D as the measurement to judge everything by? Even in games that are more frag-hunt-intensive, there always were roles that were known to result in higher K/D ratio and roles that would result in a lower K/D ratio. I don't see how NS2 players would somehow be so much more stupid that they couldn't understand this. I don't see why we should really shelter those few exceptionally inexperienced or stupid players from themselves and the K/D ratio, at the expense of the majority of the gamers.
Unless you are running around on your own, you cant account for your teammates putting in the last bullet... sure accuracy may increase your chances of getting in that last bullet but doesnt eliminate a teammate popping off that last shot which would simply then reward the teammate 1 kill, and you nothing.
As a commander would you bring up the scoreboard and use that to judge wether or not to assist a player who is in the position you wanted them to be in and attempting to fight off enemies ? Or would you simply analyse the current situation and decide if any player in that situation would be able to survive given assistance before using resources ? Would it make a difference if that player was randomnewb0012 or arc.proplayer wether you assist or not ? Personally I would judge it based on how much I value that player being successful over how much its going to cost my team in res... I mean by the time I pulled up the scoreboard, checked this guys has a decent KDR the situation would of resolved itself. (I'll disregard your conclusion on my lack of knowledge of commanding)
As to what harm it does ? NS2 at the moment is a niche game played by mostly fans of NS (or perhaps from Savage and other RTSFPS hybrids, but a limited size niche) , hopefully the game will be successfull and bring in lots of players... inevitably many from CoD / BF 3 which contain a large number who are obsessed with KDR, and do judge based on KDR.
... besides what harm will it do you if you cant see randomnoob012 has died 24 times already, why display it for all to see how much of a newb the poor sod is ? A low score shows he played poorly but doesnt break down his terrible skills for all to analyse and compare. Why are you so desperate to show up some poor unskilled guy online in front of the rest of the server ? A skilled player will be noticable , stats or not... isnt that enough ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979515:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you are running around on your own, you cant account for your teammates putting in the last bullet... sure accuracy may increase your chances of getting in that last bullet but doesnt eliminate a teammate popping off that last shot which would simply then reward the teammate 1 kill, and you nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh. Yeah. So what? Someone saved my bacon by taking out that skulks? Cool. Someone stole a couple of frags I mostly was responsible? Cool, that happens too. The system is a rough indicator and is complemented by score AND is pretty accurate in the long run. It works pretty well even though it is basic.
<!--quoteo(post=1979515:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a commander would you bring up the scoreboard and use that to judge wether or not to assist a player who is in the position you wanted them to be in and attempting to fight off enemies ? Or would you simply analyse the current situation and decide if any player in that situation would be able to survive given assistance before using resources ? Would it make a difference if that player was randomnewb0012 or arc.proplayer wether you assist or not ? Personally I would judge it based on how much I value that player being successful over how much its going to cost my team in res... I mean by the time I pulled up the scoreboard, checked this guys has a decent KDR the situation would of resolved itself. (I'll disregard your conclusion on my lack of knowledge of commanding)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I follow my team on the field and I occasionally follow the scoreboard. This allows me to have an idea of the skill level of different players. This also allows me to make educated guesses to the relative strenghts of the teams and helps to evaluate the timings for game events to come. Also, I am more likely to have faith in the success of a good player and thus I am more likely to invest in them. Sure, during a hive rush every one gets their share of meds and ammo, but if resources are scarce or the situation is bad for the player, only the better players are likely to return that investment by staying alive. No, I do not open scoreboard to check for individual meds, but I follow the teams progress throughout the game. K/D helps in this.
<!--quoteo(post=1979515:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to what harm it does ? NS2 at the moment is a niche game played by mostly fans of NS (or perhaps from Savage and other RTSFPS hybrids, but a limited size niche) , hopefully the game will be successfull and bring in lots of players... inevitably many from CoD / BF 3 which contain a large number who are obsessed with KDR, and do judge based on KDR.
... besides what harm will it do you if you cant see randomnoob012 has died 24 times already, why display it for all to see how much of a newb the poor sod is ? A low score shows he played poorly but doesnt break down his terrible skills for all to analyse and compare. Why are you so desperate to show up some poor unskilled guy online in front of the rest of the server ? A skilled player will be noticable , stats or not... isnt that enough ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what this all boils down is that you want the game to hold the new players hand and tell soothing lies about how they are not so bad after all? Oh, and apparently we are in a danger of being overrun by COD-noobs, who will not understand the game but will still stay and not learn the game and will make game much worse for us? ;)
In my opinion, anyone who plays the game for even a few hours will notice, that there is much more to the game than K/D. This, more than anything, will negate the CoD-K/D-hunter problem you so fear. You don't need to grind through a feed-phasegate all that many times to understand, that some things that result in low K/D result in wins for the team. Why not give that information to the players and have faith in their ability to maybe, I don't know, THINK for themselves?
Comments
+1
And while we're on this topic, there are several other aspects of the scoreboard I personally find upsetting and just plain unneeded.
Score is a useless stat. It's easy to hang back and bite powernodes or kill cysts the entire game and not actually do anything for your team. You can even snipe last hits to get more score!!! OMG ! so unfair! Score is a really meaningless stat and they should remove it from the scoreboard.
I think ping being on the scoreboard is really upsetting too. Ping is meaningless and it should only be displayed to yourself, not the whole team. Because ping is on the public scoreboard, it allows discrimination toward people who do not live close to any servers.
Also personal resources should be removed too. I don't want some noob commander yelling at me to go gorge when I don't want to. It's unfair and I feel belittled as a person. People should not be allowed to see <i>my</i> personal resources.
And that NS2 stats site? wow what an abomination. It's SO offensive. I just can't stop thinking about my stats being available for the <u><b>whole world</b></u> to see! I keep losing sleep over it and it's really affecting my ability to function. UWE should definitely take that site down. It's horrible.
And while we're on this topic, there are several other aspects of the scoreboard I personally find upsetting and just plain unneeded.
Score is a useless stat. It's easy to hang back and bite powernodes or kill cysts the entire game and not actually do anything for your team. You can even snipe last hits to get more score!!! OMG ! so unfair! Score is a really meaningless stat and they should remove it from the scoreboard.
I think ping being on the scoreboard is really upsetting too. Ping is meaningless and it should only be displayed to yourself, not the whole team. Because ping is on the public scoreboard, it allows discrimination toward people who do not live close to any servers.
Also personal resources should be removed too. I don't want some noob commander yelling at me to go gorge when I don't want to. It's unfair and I feel belittled as a person. People should not be allowed to see <i>my</i> personal resources.
And that NS2 stats site? wow what an abomination. It's SO offensive. I just can't stop thinking about my stats being available for the <u><b>whole world</b></u> to see! I keep losing sleep over it and it's really affecting my ability to function. UWE should definitely take that site down. It's horrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Total Score : Teamwork Score : Combat Score
Total is Teamwork+Combat scores
Teamwork score is objectives completed and defeating structures (add assist values as well)
Combat score is damage to other players (add assist values)
I think this would promote better teamwork and less reliance on either k/d or focus on objectives score by combining the two. This way those who are on the top are doing both well.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them.
If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
Problem solved.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them.
If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has less to do with k/d and more to do with better scoring and better scoring information. I guess I don't care if they keep or toss k/d. I just want to have the scoring system more accurately reflect how the player is doing. Its ok now, but it misses a lot of information.
edit: but yes, the scoring needs to be fixed.
You say that sarcastically but they actually talked about putting in an option to hide your stats <facepalm>
It's in there for players like me (and any FPS) who want to know. And for any spectators. If you don't want to see how bad you're doing, don't hit tab. >_>
That being said, there is a small window for a team with a worse team kdr to still win using positioning, build order, comm skill, teamwork, or surprise (nexzil's win vs arc or pokemaster's win vs arc are good examples). However, that window is small, such that improving your kdr is still the most important skill for winning in NS2.
... not here.
I am <b>NOT</b> advocating the removal of stats, of any form of score keeping, read my posts... you know actually READ.
You will then see I want other stuff also acknowledged as doing my part in the game, healing, supporting ( like when I used umbra and blocked off the marine bullets from fragging the retreating Onos, the marines had to settle for a Lerk kill instead ), putting up hydras in defensive postitions using up my pres... not hogging pres so I can go Fade and improve my KDR.
... but nooo you childish sarcastic bunch just have to concentrate only on killing, just like any good little CoD player base.
Go ahead and quote where I said REMOVE ALL STATS, go ahead.
Seems to me the ones that are so scared of any change to the score system are those that are too busy basking in the glory of a high KDR and dont consider any of thier teammates contributiions, this is why they cant debate my points...only attack in sarcastic (and stupid) manners.
Simple , a pack of skulks ambush 1 marine ... is it fair only 1 skulk recieves acknowledgement of that kill ?
Is it fair a Gorge healing his teammates, to allow his teammates to get a higher KDR should be considered a lesser player because his KDR is lower ?
The player that blocks the enemy fire so the much more valuable Onos can retreat...is he a noob for dying and reducing his KDR ?
That being said, there is a small window for a team with a worse team kdr to still win using positioning, build order, comm skill, teamwork, or surprise (nexzil's win vs arc or pokemaster's win vs arc are good examples). However, that window is small, such that improving your kdr is still the most important skill for winning in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Often, the strategic component of NS2 means that your team fights with an overwhelming advantage, or that they simply fight where there is no resistance at all. Learning to aim makes you a better unit, a better solider, but that only matters when you're fighting in near equal strengths.
It's true to say that learning to aim and dodge is an important skill, but it's disingenuous to say that aiming ability clearly trumps strategy in importance. Better strats can beat better aim even if the aiming gap is large. The problem is that most high-profile NS2 players and teams have had years to learn how to strat, but are still getting the feel for the framerate and movement mechanics of this particular build. Thus, the gap between strategic skill tends to be small while the gap between fighting skill can vary substantially.
I know that the ideal solution is to care about helping your team, and this would replace caring about your K:D in the argument above; but I think for new players it's easier to care about your K:D, and so it can indirectly lead them to be better team players.
... not here.
I am <b>NOT</b> advocating the removal of stats, of any form of score keeping, read my posts... you know actually READ.
You will then see I want other stuff also acknowledged as doing my part in the game, healing, supporting ( like when I used umbra and blocked off the marine bullets from fragging the retreating Onos, the marines had to settle for a Lerk kill instead ), putting up hydras in defensive postitions using up my pres... not hogging pres so I can go Fade and improve my KDR.
... but nooo you childish sarcastic bunch just have to concentrate only on killing, just like any good little CoD player base.
Go ahead and quote where I said REMOVE ALL STATS, go ahead.
Seems to me the ones that are so scared of any change to the score system are those that are too busy basking in the glory of a high KDR and dont consider any of thier teammates contributiions, this is why they cant debate my points...only attack in sarcastic (and stupid) manners.
Simple , a pack of skulks ambush 1 marine ... is it fair only 1 skulk recieves acknowledgement of that kill ?
Is it fair a Gorge healing his teammates, to allow his teammates to get a higher KDR should be considered a lesser player because his KDR is lower ?
The player that blocks the enemy fire so the much more valuable Onos can retreat...is he a noob for dying and reducing his KDR ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible post. You ARE advocating the removal of stats when you say:
<!--quoteo(post=1979007:date=Sep 17 2012, 08:39 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 17 2012, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I said earlier , keep individual KDR and only show it to the individual player so that player can use the stats to judge thier own play as they see fit... simply do not display it to everyone.
I am pretty sure no one is so obsessed with e-peen as to need a match wide visible KDR, right ?
Commanders ? Nah, commanders will note players that are following orders and getting things done and issue equipment on that basis... not on a KDR basis.
A pretty good solution and everyone is happy... imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here you're advocating the removal of 11 out of 12 peoples KDRs when most people seem to be able to objectively view KDR within the context of the entire game. Kills and deaths both convey important information about how the game is trending and who is the most dangerous in certain aspects of the game. If you want to improve the score aspect to include damage, healing, and other metrics then that is GREAT. I think nearly everyone here will agree with you that a general score system should include these, along with many other, things.
You're making bad assumptions when you claim that people who enjoy the information gained from public kills and deaths are only doing it to KDR ######. You're speaking to many of the most competitive players in NS2. There's nothing about stat whoring in these posts. These people want to win above all else, even a high KDR.
You didnt even attempt to counter argue how KDR is still reflective despite the fact it awards 1 kill point per kill to the player that delivered the last attack...even if a group of players did damage to that target.
A pack skulks ? A squad of marines ? A group of various aliens in an assualt ? Gorges healing...wtf worthless player ? Commanders KDR sucks or is something like 0 / 0 ... worthless player ?
KDR is NOT an accurate reflection of a players contribution to the match, and does not take into account all the other actions performed during the match...
... I even suggested an alternative with the scoring system that would reward players who are skilled with aiming and get score from kills, but nooooo...
... herp derp I kill lots I pwn noobs, your KDR is bad you noob.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep pulling hypothetical BS out of your ass and then claiming the "other guys" are too immature to handle public kills and deaths. From re-reading your posts in this thread, it sounds like you're the one that isn't adult enough to handle public KDR.
I assume you were playing around when you typed that... or smoked up, or drunk.
Come back and post when you have managed to learn to read the posted arguments, and can post an sensible counter point to the given argument...
... seriously, you really think that, wow. You should go see a shrink about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question. I guess i could have sugar coated my previous post a little but what i said is true. If you have fun being a gorge and protect 1 RT all game then I am glad. It may even help your team win. Unfortunately the player on your team who pressures the marines, saves under attack RTs, prevents or destroys forward phase gates, kills the entire marine team 4 or 5 times, kills the jetpackers on their way to kill you and eventually takes out the marines base has done more to help your team win then you have. You are welcome to play the game however you want and contribute how you can, but don't degrade other players achievements by taking them off the scoreboard. It is a team game so be happy for your team instead of resenting their skill, and I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question.
It's true to say that learning to aim and dodge is an important skill, but it's disingenuous to say that aiming ability clearly trumps strategy in importance. Better strats can beat better aim even if the aiming gap is large. The problem is that most high-profile NS2 players and teams have had years to learn how to strat, but are still getting the feel for the framerate and movement mechanics of this particular build. Thus, the gap between strategic skill tends to be small while the gap between fighting skill can vary substantially.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trust me, I've been searching for any strat or tactic that can overcome a significant kdr deficit since I started in competitive NS2 over a year ago. I haven't found one yet. The closest I've found were:
- Multiple obs beacon rushes when it beaconed to the obs rather than the nearest command station
- ARC rushes before they were repeatedly nerfed
- Close spawns GL rushes when they were assault rifle add-ons
Please, show me a strat or tactic that can overcome a significant skill deficit and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.
It doesnt for one a single engagment, but over time and over hundreds of encounters, those who are the most accurate, still stand a better chance of gettin that last bullet into the skulk, as they are hitting him for a greater percentage of the time than those that are less accurate / worse at predicting the exit route.
Those team members who are contributing more hits, have this reflected with a higher k:d ratio.
Those team members who are contributing less hits, get the aim practise, sometimes get to steal a kill they barely shot <b>(so higher kills)</b>, get saved a possible death when the more accurate marines shoot <b>(lower deaths)</b> and most importantly, get the pleasure of playing the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commanders contribution ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comms dont play for score, just to win, i do anyway. I like a positive K:D from jumping out, mines, and clever hydra/clog placements, but i feel no need for my score to be buffed lol if we win, and i was necessary for that win, im happy.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain how having a score based system that ALSO takes into account the damage and kills you make, as well as performing team actions is not more fair and accurate ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The accuracy of a single score scoring system, well, im sure it would be perfectly "accurate" ...... im sure it wouldnt forget to carry the 9 when it added it up. Until we knew exactly how such a score system would count each scoring event exactly, we wouldnt have a clue how accurate it would be at scoring the skill of players.
As for "fair" i have a similar confusion, fair to whome? how is this system unfair? everyone gets to play under the same system, no one is hacking the scores, everyone would be playing by the same rules which ever set of rules we used, as long as this happens, any scoring system is fair.
Its not a matter of fairness, or accuracy. Although there are k:d ratios, there is also score, this is more information, not less, and this is better.
Both k:D ratios AND score let the commander know who the best troops are, it lets players know who the best players are (to emulate them if they have any sense), it lets players see stacked teams, it allows for good players, to see how they are stacking up against other good players.
I cant understand why we would want LESS information, when we could have more, especially when the "more" is only 3 numbers (k+d+score).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why does it HAVE to be KDR ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isnt kdr, its kdr, AND score. Why does it HAVE to be JUST score.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do you need it to be visible to ALL, why not just visible to yourself for self analysis and improvement ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the reasons i said above, both kdr AND score are helpful aids if they are visible to all.
The commander needs to know who his good soldiers are, which are worth medpacking when they are killing an rt, and which are worth medpacking against skulks.
Other players need to identifiy, follow, help and emulate other better players, and they need to know wether they should be emulsting the style and strategy that he shoot aliens, or bites marines, or wether he should be watching him to see what strategic angle he is working to generate such a high score.
Good players need to rank their own ability against other good players. we cant do this, if nobody knows each others score.
----
I dont give a damn about my k:d ratios, on many rounds i play, i take actions that are detrimental to my kd ratio, but give me score instead. I can think of few actions that are helpful to my team that arent rewarded by score, the game ranks people by score first you know, and a marine suiciding for the upgrade structures can end the game with a very negative kd ratio, but be top of the score board, and have been extreemly helpful to his team, this is also true of a gorge bileing.
Ironically, it promotes teamwork. Say me and players A and B all get the same order to go fight somewhere. All of a sudden, A and B take different routes to get there. If I check their scores (or have noticed one of them has stood out in the game so far) who do you think I'm gonna follow? The one who can take care of himself, or the guy who's died 13 times and has one or two kills?
Likewise, if I know I'm moving with someone who's skilled, I trust him to have my back. I'd rather be with someone who can save my ass and I can return the favor.
It's been stated numerous times that the comm needs to know which of his best players have the best chance of staying alive. Medspam and nanoshield are just two things. What about who to give the dangerous ninja mission to?
I keep hearing these claims about e-peen and how awful it is that someone likes to see their scores. What's your argument for actually removing them? It will NOT promote team play, it will NOT stop rambo players, it will NOT stop people who suck from sucking, it will NOT discourage teasing of players that do poorly (of course I hope this wouldn't happen - but it's probably a reality), it will NOT stop people who do well from bragging.
Hell, if a player on the other team is doing awesome, I won't even be able to ask for pointers from him anymore, because I won't know which one he was!
Tell me, what are the actual benefits of removing score? I've never seen anyone bragging about their K:D in game, and even if I did, I'd ignore them.
ESPECIALY in pubs, i know quite a few morons who think kills = all.
If you like the information gained from Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should look at them.
If you don't like the information conveyed by Kills, Deaths, and/or Score then you should not look at them.
Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One more example of "I dont read, i simply post bull######"
In games people quit or complaining because another guy is killing (doesnt matter if by cheating or if hes simply a good fps player) them and their K/D going down...so they leave the server.
And in all this replys i still didnt find any argument <b>for </b>K/D Information... in exception of the e-pen guys who want to show how great they can set the final shot /bite.
Counter Strike Global Offensive will be out soon... there you can show how leet you are.
Again Natural Selection is a <b>Team Game</b>. No one will win a match alone if his K/D is good. Sure, Kills are important but without support and without the right decission at the right time its useless.
So again, please give me arguments for K/D. I simply want to understand why this useless stat is still ingame.
Wonder if it says anything? Probably not, that'd be trying to generalize an entire compendium of viewpoints into a function of trivial variables, and that's a dangerous thing to do.
1)In games people quit or complaining because another guy is killing (doesnt matter if by cheating or if hes simply a good fps player) them and their K/D going down...so they leave the server.
2)And in all this replys i still didnt find any argument <b>for </b>K/D Information... in exception of the e-pen guys who want to show how great they can set the final shot /bite.
Counter Strike Global Offensive will be out soon... there you can show how leet you are.
3)Again Natural Selection is a <b>Team Game</b>. No one will win a match alone if his K/D is good. Sure, Kills are important but without support and without the right decission at the right time its useless.
So again, please give me arguments for K/D. I simply want to understand why this useless stat is still ingame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll address these point by point.
1) Please tell us more about the mental thoughts of the other players who are quitting. You seem to think that they're quitting because their K/D is going down. I propose to you that their quitting because they're losing or because they're dying and don't give a ###### about what their KDR looks like. They aren't having fun dying/losing, so they take a break. You're trying to blame this on KDR, but that seems absolutely preposterous to me. I'd bet that most people who leave a game don't give a ###### about their KDR.
2) You haven't found any argument for K/D information? How about the fact that it IS INFORMATION! You can get a general idea of who is doing what and how well based on their scoreboard. If that guy is 0-0, he's the commander. If that other guy has 0 to 2 kills while the rest of his team has 5+ kills, then he's probably playing gorge. If there's some guy going 15-0 then you know you have to shut him down or you'll probably lose the game. If your entire team is sporting a 3:1 KDR, then you know your entire team is probably better at fragging and you can try an early shotgun push. If you're aliens and the team is getting owned with a 0.5 KDR then you know you're going to have to turtle. Maybe have a couple people swap to gorge and drop hydras or not extend out past 2-3 RTs.
3) Natural Selection being a team game does not mean that kills and deaths are irrelevant. You'll never see anyone win a game without any kills. If you spent less time complaining about information and instead learned to understand what it was saying, then you'd grow as a player.
P.S. If you refuse to believe that KDR conveys information, then just ignore it instead of trying to force dumb opinions on people who find great use in public kills and deaths.
Here you're advocating the removal of 11 out of 12 peoples KDRs when most people seem to be able to objectively view KDR within the context of the entire game. Kills and deaths both convey important information about how the game is trending and who is the most dangerous in certain aspects of the game. If you want to improve the score aspect to include damage, healing, and other metrics then that is GREAT. I think nearly everyone here will agree with you that a general score system should include these, along with many other, things.
You're making bad assumptions when you claim that people who enjoy the information gained from public kills and deaths are only doing it to KDR ######. You're speaking to many of the most competitive players in NS2. There's nothing about stat whoring in these posts. These people want to win above all else, even a high KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That post I was suggesting a mutually amicable solution to all parties, one that allows players to see thier own kills and deaths for self analysis and improvement but withhold that information from the rest of the server.
Why do they need to know what other players kills and deaths are ? Commanders will note who is always in the right place or is successfully pushing without looking at the kills and deaths, good players will be sticking out anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1979237:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Sep 17 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You keep pulling hypothetical BS out of your ass and then claiming the "other guys" are too immature to handle public kills and deaths. From re-reading your posts in this thread, it sounds like you're the one that isn't adult enough to handle public KDR.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those 'hypothetical' situations are actually pretty common place, thats why they come to mind so easily... or have you not seen skulk packs ambushing a rambo ? Or any of the other situations I described on a server ?
How is it now a question of my maturity wether or not you can see MY kills and deaths ?
What can you extrapulate from seeing OTHER players kills and deaths ? Player xyz dies a lot and doesnt kill lots ? Why do YOU need this information ?
<!--quoteo(post=1979247:date=Sep 17 2012, 11:34 PM:name=Dusk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dusk @ Sep 17 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question. I guess i could have sugar coated my previous post a little but what i said is true. If you have fun being a gorge and protect 1 RT all game then I am glad. It may even help your team win. Unfortunately the player on your team who pressures the marines, saves under attack RTs, prevents or destroys forward phase gates, kills the entire marine team 4 or 5 times, kills the jetpackers on their way to kill you and eventually takes out the marines base has done more to help your team win then you have. You are welcome to play the game however you want and contribute how you can, but don't degrade other players achievements by taking them off the scoreboard. It is a team game so be happy for your team instead of resenting their skill, and I'm tired of having my mental state brought into question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a case of sugar coating, its a case of you posted an unbelievably childish comment ... 99.9% of players who see the game will take it seriously... whaaaaat ?!? Are you saying you believe players will see the kills and deaths colums and suddenly take the game seriously, omg this is srsbzns ... hell even if they did that merely proves that players are obsessed with KDR.
Then you flapped your gums about Hello Kitty, we dont all share your infatuation with that class of game... sorry.
The Gorge who uses his personal res to go Gorge, then heals the Hive to grow faster so your Fade can get blink faster doesnt get his action reflected in the Kills and Deaths tab, my issue isnt with kills and deaths as so much that it seems to reflect what a players worth is on the team.
KDR is not an accurate system to reflect a players worth to the team, yet the scoreboard suggests it does.
What does it mean to YOU if you see me in game and I have a 10 deaths and 1 kill, how will you adjust YOUR game based on this information ?
I agree. But wouldn't it be much better if the points would actually reflect how good a player is, instead a number that tells you who had the most luck in getting the last bullet onto a target?
The points can and should be fixed! Simply equally distributed to every player by the amount of damage/build/heal he has done. K/D cant be fixed that easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1979093:date=Sep 17 2012, 06:20 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 17 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until they fix performance I think the KD display is meaningless anyway. Not to mention the ever-changing skulk mechanics. I've been playing this game since alpha, and since I got back from my 6 weeks vacation it feels like I can't hit anything any more as a skulk. I don't consider myself a pro player, but I definitely was fairly decent as a skulk. Now, because of the lacking performance and skulk changes I'm absolutely useless and I'm not even enjoying aliens any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know that feel, bro. I encounter this problem nearly every new build. It is easy explained. FPS are fast games, you don't have the time to think how to move as a skulk you do it by reflex. This reflex needs to be trained into your brain. If something little changes in the movement of the skulk, all your trained reflexes are suddenly useless and you don't know exactly why. You just die allot.
But this isn't a real problem. Just keep on trying. Your reflexes will be trained for the new mechanics and everything will turn out to be as easy as it was before the change.
And finally, this:
<!--quoteo(post=1979203:date=Sep 17 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Cidman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cidman @ Sep 17 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would rather see scoring be done better. Use the current area but change what they do.
Total Score : Teamwork Score : Combat Score
Total is Teamwork+Combat scores
Teamwork score is objectives completed and defeating structures (add assist values as well)
Combat score is damage to other players (add assist values)
I think this would promote better teamwork and less reliance on either k/d or focus on objectives score by combining the two. This way those who are on the top are doing both well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I don't see a problem in showing or not showing the K/D, the pure numbers are useless. A fade will have a higher K/D as a Skulk etc. A real scoring that not only awards players equally for what they contribute but also differentiate between "skulk killed jetpacker" or "fade killed LMG marine" would be really nice but nearly utopia.
A better scoring system would be more than enough for the first step.
Your claim that an accurate player will get more kills even in a team fight due to being able to put more rounds in than his fellows is debateable, its just as likely a new player will get lucky and fire the last shot that takes down the target after the skilled player has dropped its health low... unless you can take down the target before your squad mates aquire the target, it becomes a question of luck I would say... but it is debatable.
However a scorebased system would still refelct the accurate players skill more, say if a skulk kill was worth 100pts ... you did 80% of the damage and a teammate did the remaining 20%, you would get 80 points and your teammate would get 20...rather than you getting 0 kills and he gets 1 kill.
Players who get a high KDR now would still get high scores and it would reflect on the scoreboard... but it leaves room for other means to score points for other team actions, thus reflects other players value.
As to needing to see other players Kills and Deaths...
Commanders dont need that information, a commander will see who is the most usefull players on his team from thier actions... commanders dont press TAB to see hey xyz has a lot of kills I'll medspam him , they notice xyz is at the places he needs to be, doing what is needed and being an asset to the commander.
Other players dont need to see either, it merely perpetuates the confusion that kills and deaths are the only measurement of skill and value in the team it fails to show the value of the other players... basically saying if your not killing the enemy you have no value to this team.
Your comment about players using other players kills and deaths as a basis to evaluate thier own skill merely perpetuates the perception kills and deaths is the only stat of worth, again.
As you say the scoreboard ranks by score, so why cant we judge only by the score ? We then dont need to see other players kills and deaths...its reflected in the score anyways, right ?
A skilled player makes less fatal mistakes and finished more opponents before they do that to the said skilled player. A skilled player will usually react quickly in the right way. They will more often be in a better position and more prepared to do a useful thing. They will be more accurate when an opportunity presents it. A good example would be a shotgunner who picks skulks out in close combat or a LMG marine who sprays down skulks by firing at gaps they expect them to move through. It should be clear to everyone, that especially in the long run, skilled players have a higher K/D ratio than less skilled players.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However a scorebased system would still refelct the accurate players skill more, say if a skulk kill was worth 100pts ... you did 80% of the damage and a teammate did the remaining 20%, you would get 80 points and your teammate would get 20...rather than you getting 0 kills and he gets 1 kill.
Players who get a high KDR now would still get high scores and it would reflect on the scoreboard... but it leaves room for other means to score points for other team actions, thus reflects other players value.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, having a decent score-system is a great thing too. In addition to K/D.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to needing to see other players Kills and Deaths...
Commanders dont need that information, a commander will see who is the most usefull players on his team from thier actions... commanders dont press TAB to see hey xyz has a lot of kills I'll medspam him , they notice xyz is at the places he needs to be, doing what is needed and being an asset to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a commander I really do want to have that information. I do follow my teams performance both from the scoreboard and of course from following them from top-down perspective. The K/D ratio is useful information and taking it away serves no purpose other than soothe some ruffled feathers. I'd like to draw the conclusion, that your commander-related claims are the result of you wanting to find rationalisations for your beliefs and you not actually knowing, how to properly utilize all the tools the commander has been given.
<!--quoteo(post=1979489:date=Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Other players dont need to see either, it merely perpetuates the confusion that kills and deaths are the only measurement of skill and value in the team it fails to show the value of the other players... basically saying if your not killing the enemy you have no value to this team.
Your comment about players using other players kills and deaths as a basis to evaluate thier own skill merely perpetuates the perception kills and deaths is the only stat of worth, again.
As you say the scoreboard ranks by score, so why cant we judge only by the score ? We then dont need to see other players kills and deaths...its reflected in the score anyways, right ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claim the K/D system isn't perfect, and most agree. Most also agree that the score system is in need of some improvements. That is true. But now, here is the tricky part: What harm does the K/D ratio cause? WTF is this, seriously? Who are these mystical players that only view K/D as the measurement to judge everything by? Even in games that are more frag-hunt-intensive, there always were roles that were known to result in higher K/D ratio and roles that would result in a lower K/D ratio. I don't see how NS2 players would somehow be so much more stupid that they couldn't understand this. I don't see why we should really shelter those few exceptionally inexperienced or stupid players from themselves and the K/D ratio, at the expense of the majority of the gamers.
As a commander would you bring up the scoreboard and use that to judge wether or not to assist a player who is in the position you wanted them to be in and attempting to fight off enemies ? Or would you simply analyse the current situation and decide if any player in that situation would be able to survive given assistance before using resources ? Would it make a difference if that player was randomnewb0012 or arc.proplayer wether you assist or not ?
Personally I would judge it based on how much I value that player being successful over how much its going to cost my team in res... I mean by the time I pulled up the scoreboard, checked this guys has a decent KDR the situation would of resolved itself.
(I'll disregard your conclusion on my lack of knowledge of commanding)
As to what harm it does ? NS2 at the moment is a niche game played by mostly fans of NS (or perhaps from Savage and other RTSFPS hybrids, but a limited size niche) , hopefully the game will be successfull and bring in lots of players... inevitably many from CoD / BF 3 which contain a large number who are obsessed with KDR, and do judge based on KDR.
... besides what harm will it do you if you cant see randomnoob012 has died 24 times already, why display it for all to see how much of a newb the poor sod is ? A low score shows he played poorly but doesnt break down his terrible skills for all to analyse and compare.
Why are you so desperate to show up some poor unskilled guy online in front of the rest of the server ? A skilled player will be noticable , stats or not... isnt that enough ?
Oh. Yeah. So what? Someone saved my bacon by taking out that skulks? Cool. Someone stole a couple of frags I mostly was responsible? Cool, that happens too. The system is a rough indicator and is complemented by score AND is pretty accurate in the long run. It works pretty well even though it is basic.
<!--quoteo(post=1979515:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a commander would you bring up the scoreboard and use that to judge wether or not to assist a player who is in the position you wanted them to be in and attempting to fight off enemies ? Or would you simply analyse the current situation and decide if any player in that situation would be able to survive given assistance before using resources ? Would it make a difference if that player was randomnewb0012 or arc.proplayer wether you assist or not ?
Personally I would judge it based on how much I value that player being successful over how much its going to cost my team in res... I mean by the time I pulled up the scoreboard, checked this guys has a decent KDR the situation would of resolved itself.
(I'll disregard your conclusion on my lack of knowledge of commanding)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I follow my team on the field and I occasionally follow the scoreboard. This allows me to have an idea of the skill level of different players. This also allows me to make educated guesses to the relative strenghts of the teams and helps to evaluate the timings for game events to come. Also, I am more likely to have faith in the success of a good player and thus I am more likely to invest in them. Sure, during a hive rush every one gets their share of meds and ammo, but if resources are scarce or the situation is bad for the player, only the better players are likely to return that investment by staying alive. No, I do not open scoreboard to check for individual meds, but I follow the teams progress throughout the game. K/D helps in this.
<!--quoteo(post=1979515:date=Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 18 2012, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As to what harm it does ? NS2 at the moment is a niche game played by mostly fans of NS (or perhaps from Savage and other RTSFPS hybrids, but a limited size niche) , hopefully the game will be successfull and bring in lots of players... inevitably many from CoD / BF 3 which contain a large number who are obsessed with KDR, and do judge based on KDR.
... besides what harm will it do you if you cant see randomnoob012 has died 24 times already, why display it for all to see how much of a newb the poor sod is ? A low score shows he played poorly but doesnt break down his terrible skills for all to analyse and compare.
Why are you so desperate to show up some poor unskilled guy online in front of the rest of the server ? A skilled player will be noticable , stats or not... isnt that enough ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what this all boils down is that you want the game to hold the new players hand and tell soothing lies about how they are not so bad after all? Oh, and apparently we are in a danger of being overrun by COD-noobs, who will not understand the game but will still stay and not learn the game and will make game much worse for us? ;)
In my opinion, anyone who plays the game for even a few hours will notice, that there is much more to the game than K/D. This, more than anything, will negate the CoD-K/D-hunter problem you so fear. You don't need to grind through a feed-phasegate all that many times to understand, that some things that result in low K/D result in wins for the team. Why not give that information to the players and have faith in their ability to maybe, I don't know, THINK for themselves?