WACOM support
Adreni
Join Date: 2012-09-12 Member: 159063Members
Join Date: 2012-09-12 Member: 159063Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's just the way you implement the mouse.</div>Well, I'm not going to ask for the ever ticky-tacky "let's aim like Freelancer and The Conduit" feature.
Instead, I'm here for something far more crucial. I say crucial because to me, using a mouse for an RTS is like using water balloons to take a shower. It CAN be done... if you're used to it. But I'm not... at all.
I use a WACOM tablet for StarCraft II. Always, without fail. I might mouse it up a tiny bit when I first get in-game, but that's really just because my hand's already there. Other than that, I literally CANNOT play the game with a mouse.
So... if ever I am in the commander's seat, am I going to be screwed, or did you make the game actually capable of using positional coordinates for the mouse as opposed to only using the simple push mechanic that plagues my existence?
Instead, I'm here for something far more crucial. I say crucial because to me, using a mouse for an RTS is like using water balloons to take a shower. It CAN be done... if you're used to it. But I'm not... at all.
I use a WACOM tablet for StarCraft II. Always, without fail. I might mouse it up a tiny bit when I first get in-game, but that's really just because my hand's already there. Other than that, I literally CANNOT play the game with a mouse.
So... if ever I am in the commander's seat, am I going to be screwed, or did you make the game actually capable of using positional coordinates for the mouse as opposed to only using the simple push mechanic that plagues my existence?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Instead, I'm here for something far more crucial. I say crucial because to me, using a mouse for an RTS is like using water balloons to take a shower. It CAN be done... if you're used to it. But I'm not... at all.
I use a WACOM tablet for StarCraft II. Always, without fail. I might mouse it up a tiny bit when I first get in-game, but that's really just because my hand's already there. Other than that, I literally CANNOT play the game with a mouse.
So... if ever I am in the commander's seat, am I going to be screwed, or did you make the game actually capable of using positional coordinates for the mouse as opposed to only using the simple push mechanic that plagues my existence?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but bronze league doesn't cut it. There is a reason that 100% of all SC2 players beyond masters uses a mouse. Your water balloon theory makes absolutely no sense at all.
I don't even. I'm saying that I can do it, just not well at all.
Furthermore, I don't care WHAT they use. I care what I <u>can</u> use without having to go through another adjustment period. Most people don't sleep three times a day either. Doesn't mean it isn't feasible.
Also, in response to MODDING in functionality: So... because I think my local dollar store should sell root beer I should go drive the truck myself, right? And again... REALLY?! How on EARTH are you grouping THAT into this?!
I can see this community is going to be as worthless as the original StarCraft community. I'm SCREWED...
---
Alright... let me explain some things... I don't KNOW why on-site pros don't use tablets and G13s except that they don't want to call in early for driver installations... IF the leagues allow it (MLG does), but I DO know that having the camera control under your thumb keeps your fingers on the main controls and your mouse on whatever task it's performing versus having to reach for arrow keys or the edge of the screen. Increases efficiency. Not sure how you can argue against that.
Using a TABLET provides a STATIC placement. In other words, I'm not sliding the mouse x far and x fast (mouse acceleration) at x angle and x curve to move the cursor to a point on my screen. I'm moving the tip of my pen to a point on the tablet which is equivalent to a point on my screen. That point NEVER moves, it NEVER changes. So watch me drop and start laughing like a fool once my pen is on my screen (Cintiq ftw. Expensive, but completely worth it if it's for general, gaming and production use) and I don't have to make ANY approximations or adjustments in my mind. I move my hand to what I see and it's THERE.
Now... as for FLIGHT STICKS?! REALLY?! Those are even MORE clumsy than a mouse! AND with a speed limitation (unless you crank it up to insanity, which just makes it even more clumsy) And yes... I did just say mice are clumsy. Maybe people aren't clumsy with them, but there's a reason professional artists use WACOM instead.
---
But... I'm done. If among the FIRST responses I get are the typical, hateful "you're stupid for not thinking like us" sort, I think it's safe to assume this is probably a no-hope community, just like old school Battle.net... and that I don't want this game at all.
So I'm going to message my friend right now and tell him not to bother getting the four pack. Congrats... you just screwed the company out of a sale.
If you like NS2, there's no reason to be upset and disown it because some random dude took a crap on your thread. Nobody cares what antacid thinks about your problem and you shouldn't either. I'd urge you to stick around and see if someone more knowledgeable about the interface (perhaps even a dev -- they frequently swoop in and help people!) can give you some more information.
Protip: Don't use mouse acceleration. A mouse can be just as 1:1 mapped to the screen as a tablet if you disable all the fluff (as most gamers do).
Not to dismiss you though. This is definitely something UWE should look into, but I doubt it'll be in for 1.0.
If you like NS2, there's no reason to be upset and disown it because some random dude took a crap on your thread. Nobody cares what antacid thinks about your problem and you shouldn't either. I'd urge you to stick around and see if someone more knowledgeable about the interface (perhaps even a dev -- they frequently swoop in and help people!) can give you some more information.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, I wouldn't be here if they weren't, but the theory was that if among the first responses I get are hateful/narrowminded bullcrap like that, the place probably has a lot of it or I'm just REALLY lucky. 'Course, that's not factoring for potentially having a couple highly active ######bags. Still, I figure informing people of just how off-putting they really are when they're being THAT off-putting is a nice STFU. ((And in case Antacid comes back and whines about this paragraph, no, I was NOT kidding. My friend has stated that he'll only buy the game if I want it. You really did nearly deprive the company of a sale. And then some considering clan sales.))
Also, the guy needs to change his name to something less... deceptive. Like GreasyFood.
---
Anyway, I'd LOVE to have such an application... would be good for playing Freelancer, too. But... in regards to MODDING, where does the line between UI mod and incompatible-with-this-server lie?
Furthermore, as the topic description says, it isn't so much a "support" implementation as a certain way of implementing the mouse that allows it to function the same way in-game as it does on your desktop.
Actually, on THAT note... this is no longer even about just WACOM. Oh, and Antacid? Another thing I hate about mice in games is the potential for mouse DRAG. And there you have it, folks... the PERFECT reason for all mouse-on-screen situations in NatSel2 t' use desktop mouse and not push-mouse. Ease of navigating menus. I've seen a couple games make it feel okay... but most wind up completely RAVAGING the concept and making menus almost impossible to navigate. And that's WITHOUT lost framerate.
<!--quoteo(post=1976202:date=Sep 12 2012, 09:01 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Sep 12 2012, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Protip: Don't use mouse acceleration. A mouse can be just as 1:1 mapped to the screen as a tablet if you disable all the fluff (as most gamers do).
Not to dismiss you though. This is definitely something UWE should look into, but I doubt it'll be in for 1.0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tiny desk. Currently favor a trackball. Yeah, I am NOT turning off my mouse acceleration for any reason. Same reason I won't use mouse for an RTS: I might be able to get used to it eventually but the way I have it now is EXACTLY what I am most proficient in given practice and on top of that, even if I did get used to X the way Y has suggested, I'm going to experience a performance drop as a result... so why?
And in case that last sentence gets a "what?" from someone... I've already explained exactly how and why tablets are statistically superior in performance to mice for an RTS. As for acceleration increasing or decreasing performance, it's as simple as movement speed. The more I have to move my hand and the more times I have to flick/move/push the trackball, the longer it takes for me to complete a task.
Using mouse acceleration allows me to navigate my screen and mouselook over a very broad range or a very narrow range using the same physical range of motion. That way I can decrease my range of motion without making it difficult or impossible to obtain pixel-precise input.
---
But... I'm done. If among the FIRST responses I get are the typical, hateful "you're stupid for not thinking like us" sort, I think it's safe to assume this is probably a no-hope community, just like old school Battle.net... and that I don't want this game at all.
So I'm going to message my friend right now and tell him not to bother getting the four pack. Congrats... you just screwed the company out of a sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call it unlucky timing. I usually try to get in before the ###### starts flying. =p Also, there have been a recent rash of people being jerks with the influx of newer players. Partially due to new players complaining about things that are old hash.
<b>Back on topic:</b>
I'm curious what makes the input system such that WACOM input isn't recognized the same as mouse input. I'm sure there's a good technical reason for it, but it's beyond my knowledge of interfaces. You mentioned something about "push mechanic" in the original post?
This would be a nice feature, but dunno what it would take to set this up. As a result, I'm inclined to assume they should add it to their task list for post-v1.0. But hey, maybe it's easy and they can put it in.
I've never seen, much less parsed the coding myself, but I've seen a variety of games glitch and reveal the mouse. What usually goes on is that the game traps the mouse in the center of the screen and measures "how hard" the mouse tries to escape and in what direction.
SOME games let the mouse fly freely around the screen. I think they read input motion directly rather than would-be motion... or perhaps free-floating is the only difference they have. BUT... I've seen the same mouse-reveal glitch in Firefall and it does exactly this at all times.
So right there... however they did it, they managed to work out an input method that doesn't even require the transitioning I mentioned before. Smooth targeting AND WACOM compatibility when appropriate (menus in Firefall's case), and I imagine whatever scripting they used is probably not that complicated.
---
And yes, you managed to get to my other topic in time, but you're VERY late for this one. Shame on you.
I think the hostility comes from the OP's tone more than anything.
The devs don't owe you anything. The community doesn't owe you anything. As it turns out neither of those groups of people are obligated to make your life easier. They aren't even obligated to make a game you will enjoy. I would guess that the number of people who game on a tablet is vanishingly small. You might have to suck it up, and adjust, or play a different game.
<description><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah. That actually makes a lot of sense from a programming standpoint. You just have to monitor how far the cursor moved between your last sample instead of calculating the differential of the last recorded state. The latter would require two different values being held and extra calculations slowing down your latency. Which makes perfect sense for a FPS.
But for the RTS component, I would think location with direct mapping would be better, then return on click the location of the pointer. And sometimes force the position back onto the screen. Hm. Intriguing.
<!--quoteo(post=1976458:date=Sep 12 2012, 12:13 PM:name=Adreni)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Adreni @ Sep 12 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, you managed to get to my other topic in time, but you're VERY late for this one. Shame on you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. Sorry. Can't be everywhere all at once. =]
As for your feature request; when UWE hears about this, they probably won't mind seeing how much effort it would be to implement. I highly doubt any changes before 1.0 though - they're on a deadline.
If it's not too much work to get working - I'd say +1. Even though it's a tiny niche (I've never heard of people using WACOM's for games), the broader support, the better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now... as for FLIGHT STICKS?! REALLY?! Those are even MORE clumsy than a mouse! AND with a speed limitation (unless you crank it up to insanity, which just makes it even more clumsy) And yes... I did just say mice are clumsy. Maybe people aren't clumsy with them, but there's a reason professional artists use WACOM instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I said fight sticks, and my point wasn't that a X interface is better then X, I am talking about how they can't just support any interface. You have to be aware of how interfaces impact game design decisions and the limited resources UWE have and time before release. I haven't seen people play FPS with WACOMs either unless you switch back to your mouse, the game has a FPS portion to it
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I move my hand to what I see and it's THERE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do this with your mouse too... You still need to move your wrist or arms to position the mouse on the mousepad or whatever surface you are using similarly with a stylus, FPS players are still able to accurately get headshots fairly quickly while utilizing their monitors(A superior device in my opinion as it has better features such as refresh rates and resolution.).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I'm going to message my friend right now and tell him not to bother getting the four pack. Congrats... you just screwed the company out of a sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a bit harsh to UWE as we are not representative of UWE and this is a forums and we are just voicing our opinions( The point of forums).
The devs don't owe you anything. The community doesn't owe you anything. As it turns out neither of those groups of people are obligated to make your life easier. They aren't even obligated to make a game you will enjoy. I would guess that the number of people who game on a tablet is vanishingly small. You might have to suck it up, and adjust, or play a different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you have no sense of humor. Reminds me of Youtube. =P
<!--quoteo(post=1976591:date=Sep 12 2012, 11:27 PM:name=Bitcrusher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bitcrusher @ Sep 12 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1976591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do this with your mouse too... You still need to move your wrist or arms to position the mouse on the mousepad or whatever surface you are using similarly with a stylus, FPS players are still able to accurately get headshots fairly quickly while utilizing their monitors(A superior device in my opinion as it has better features such as refresh rates and resolution.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really?! I'm not asking you to observe how the people USE the clumsy thing, I'm asking you to DO THE MATH. No, you DON'T do that with your mouse. You train yourself to move your mouse a certain distance to match a certain position. With a WACOM tablet you move the nib to a point on the tablet that matches a static point on the screen.
If you would actually READ my post instead of skimming it (which I assume most people do these days) you might actually understand...
---
Oh, and as for punishing the company... no. I just don't want to be part of a community of elitists and haters. I'm not "punishing the company." I'm just avoiding something that offends me.
Really?! I'm not asking you to observe how the people USE the clumsy thing, I'm asking you to DO THE MATH. No, you DON'T do that with your mouse. You train yourself to move your mouse a certain distance to match a certain position. With a WACOM tablet you move the nib to a point on the tablet that matches a static point on the screen.
If you would actually READ my post instead of skimming it (which I assume most people do these days) you might actually understand...
---
Oh, and as for punishing the company... no. I just don't want to be part of a community of elitists and haters. I'm not "punishing the company." I'm just avoiding something that offends me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What math? I won't argue with you anymore. Good luck on getting WACOM support.
For this reason, I don't think it's fair that you claim this feature is "crucial", and to scold the developers for not catering to your needs. I'm sure the developers, or even some modders, would be glad to hear about adding WACOM support for the game (how hard can it be?). It wouldn't hurt if next time you posed a question like this in a less demanding tone.
And yes, there is a reason why professional artists use tablets instead of mice for painting. There is also a reason why every single professional player in every single competitive game ever uses a mouse. Photoshop and Starcraft are quite different programs.
For this reason, I don't think it's fair that you claim this feature is "crucial", and to scold the developers for not catering to your needs. I'm sure the developers, or even some modders, would be glad to hear about adding WACOM support for the game (how hard can it be?). It wouldn't hurt if next time you posed a question like this in a less demanding tone.
And yes, there is a reason why professional artists use tablets instead of mice for painting. There is also a reason why every single professional player in every single competitive game ever uses a mouse. Photoshop and Starcraft are quite different programs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure it's lack of interest and perceived necessity, not "mice are better for the job."
As for phrasing my original post nicely, the whole thing was written in either irony or jest. Notice the first two paragraphs... I throw in something that's OBVIOUSLY stupid and- oh forget it. I just need to stop trying to be funny. =_= And don't say "say lol" because that RUINS it. And yeah, a bit of aggression thrown in toward the end, I guess.
Ugh... can I just return to being withdrawn and antisocial now? Open my mouth and everything comes out twisted.
As for phrasing my original post nicely, the whole thing was written in either irony or jest. Notice the first two paragraphs... I throw in something that's OBVIOUSLY stupid and- oh forget it. I just need to stop trying to be funny. =_= And don't say "say lol" because that RUINS it. And yeah, a bit of aggression thrown in toward the end, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Irony and gest have the tendency to be misunderstood through text. Keep that in mind next time you post a request thread. As for WACOM support, it might come, but as Tempest said it is a minority and this is a small company. So your best bet is modding support, I guess?
And with that I'll lock this one as it has served its purpose and I only see more hostilities coming from it
-I'll put it on the list of feature request and minor annoyances...