MAC auto-weld is insane
Deadzone
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
So I was playing some alien team today, when I came across something extremely annoying. A single alien cannot kill 3 MACs. Because MACs auto-weld stuff around them (which is fine), the two not being attacked will weld the damaged one automatically, and will heal it more than a lone skulk or fade can DPS it.
I'm fine with MACs welding at that rate, but not automatically. I'm also fine with MACs welding structures automatically AT that rate, but not each other. 3 MACs sitting together should not make your base invincible to a ninja skulk.
Solutions as I see it:
Lower MAC welding rate on other MACs.
Make MACs no longer automatically weld each other.
discuss :D
I'm fine with MACs welding at that rate, but not automatically. I'm also fine with MACs welding structures automatically AT that rate, but not each other. 3 MACs sitting together should not make your base invincible to a ninja skulk.
Solutions as I see it:
Lower MAC welding rate on other MACs.
Make MACs no longer automatically weld each other.
discuss :D
Comments
Undeniably there is imbalance with the current rate of MAC welding. However, it doesn't make alot of sense trying to 'balance' the ai units without full and fluid functionality being implemented first such as
a) pathing
b) unit selection reliability
c) unit responsiveness
d) AI unit collision
As there is no complete implementation basis, any changes in ai unit functionality obviously will have more balance impact than the numbers themselves e.g. auto weld. Because auto-weld is a necessary function and manual welding was a right pain in the arse to do, i would argue that its not helpful to treat it as a balance variable directly.
I've already proposed a quick fix solution to MAC welding. I think its impossible to find a balanced weld rate that doesn't result in MAC spam or other not so good side-effects without first simulating AI unit collision by limiting number of MACs can weld a target at any time. You can see this in almost every other strategy game out there. Example, limited number of room around a unit or building that SCV's can occupy to repair.
so an EXO/ARC/MAC or a structure can be welded WHILST taking damage at the same time
a solution could be that if taking damage, macs dont weld (both autoweld and manual weld for the mac). You could then make a time delay, so 2 or 3 seconds after something has stopped taking damage, only then can macs weld. Personal welders can stay as is and can weld EXO/ARC/MAC/structures that are taking damage at the same time.
This would stop EXO's being invulnerable thanks to macs, it would also stop and entire team going EXO and relying solely on MACS to repair in combat.
Could also effect ARCs.
Both of those situations still are better than how it is now. It either increases the amount of res spent on those MACs to the point of silliness, which steers commanders towards another method of security, or it requires the commander to work to save his MACs, just like medpacking marines until help arrives. If the latter proves too tedious, then heaven forbid marines will have to take up welders and fix some buildings.
If MACs cannot weld each other (or do so rather inefficiently) there is still a purpose to having one floating around the base, to repair odd damage. I have a feeling they are intended to do such by devs. I do not think the devs meant for 3 MACs to completely defend a base from single aliens.
/thread
No marine responded to my attack for probably about 1 minute, but I spent this 1 minute initially attacking the CC. But the comm just directed 4 MACs in the base to the CC and they just healed themselves and the CC. They were indestructible and there was no way of allowing any come back or advantage because of this.
The MAC like the ARC i'd like to see as perhaps more expensive, higher armoured units. That should be the trade off for spam, and a cost of spam as well.
I also like the idea about only one MAC healing another MAC at any one time.
The situation is so laughable that a single skulk, who is by himself, would have nothing better to bite than a mac who has two macs next to him who have nothing better to weld than the first mac while no one else is around to shoot the skulk.
The situation is so laughable that a single skulk, who is by himself, would have nothing better to bite than a mac who has two macs next to him who have nothing better to weld than the first mac while no one else is around to shoot the skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*correction
The single skulk is alone in marine base and wants to chew the observatory, but he can't get any damage on the obs because the MACs are just auto-healing it while the comm and marine team happily ignore everything. THEN he tries to bite a mac to stop them, and finds out he can't.
The single skulk is alone in marine base and wants to chew the observatory, but he can't get any damage on the obs because the MACs are just auto-healing it while the comm and marine team happily ignore everything. THEN he tries to bite a mac to stop them, and finds out he can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And a single skulk being countered by three macs in an undefended marine base is a problem because?
How is this more powerful than a mine?
How is this more powerful than a mine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mines can be intelligently avoided, and only debilitate higher lifeforms.
MACs effectively counter any lone lifeform, barring bilebombing gorges. As with hydras and sentries, anything not a player should not be able to completely counter a player. Players must be around in order to effectively deploy them.
Make it so they can only sustain constant welding for a few seconds, then they weld more slowly...
Not that theyre equivalent or anything, just pointing it out since I doubt it was intentional (at least I hope to God it wasnt).
<!--quoteo(post=1971202:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:22 PM:name=Tailor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tailor @ Sep 4 2012, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And a single skulk being countered by three macs in an undefended marine base is a problem because?
How is this more powerful than a mine?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can walk around a mine, and theyre only single use? Not to mention it feels downright unfair and lame and probably goes against some central tenet of UWE's design policy or other.
This is my favorite out of all the solutions proposed so far.
MACs effectively counter any lone lifeform, barring bilebombing gorges. As with hydras and sentries, anything not a player should not be able to completely counter a player. Players must be around in order to effectively deploy them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they *only* counter a single skulk. Nothing else. A lone fade can kill one easily, a lone lerk can kill one easily, a lone onos (lol) can kill one easily.
And macs *are* a player. A commander who spends 10 resources with the express purpose of countering a single skulk rush is perfectly viable imo.
And macs *are* a player. A commander who spends 10 resources with the express purpose of countering a single skulk rush is perfectly viable imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well they do other things too... Also I think a fade or lerk might have trouble if a skulk cant kill them. Also dont underestimate the ability to ignore one skulk, when the entire marine team is advancing into your base that may be all you have to spare and a player (imo) should be worth considerably more than some AI robots. There is also the side issue that if an exo shows up in your base with a mac train escort the only thing (I am not joking here, this is literally true in my experience) that can kill it is a bilebombing gorge or possibly the majority of your team focusing it. Nothing else can put out enough consistent dmg on the exo or the macs to kill them. Note that this does require several macs.
How about limiting repairs to 1 mac at a time (so any 1 object can only be welded by 1 mac at a time).
Huh? I kill crags all the time. They heal sloooow. Are you axing them or shooting them?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they *only* counter a single skulk. Nothing else. A lone fade can kill one easily, a lone lerk can kill one easily, a lone onos (lol) can kill one easily.
And macs *are* a player. A commander who spends 10 resources with the express purpose of countering a single skulk rush is perfectly viable imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 MAC dies easy. 2 MACs die easy. It's two MACs welding a third where it becomes a problem. 2 MACs welding the same target (whether it's a building or that third MAC) out-heals a skulk, fade, and lerk. I have not tried it with onos.
This has only been happening in 218 and I have noted it consistently, maybe it is some sort of strange bug? Btw I have tried both, even welding.
at the same time though I am noticing a lot of use for macs/drifters then what might have been originally intended. Alien coms just use drifters and spys to check out enemy movement most of the time. Sit them around key areas with a shade.
I also noticed crags being a lot tougher then last build, I unloaded 4 whole flamethrower clips into 2 crags sitting next to each other with help from other marines axeing. I have no idea whats going on there.
I'll assume you meant 217 :D I'll admit there are some bugs going around with almost-unkillable... Shifts I think? Maybe there's something weird with crags, too. I know they only pop a heal every what, 5 seconds? Maybe longer? Even a crag next to a hive shouldn't get healed so much a marine can't kill it. (assuming he's not being attacked)
No marine responded to my attack for probably about 1 minute, but I spent this 1 minute initially attacking the CC. But the comm just directed 4 MACs in the base to the CC and they just healed themselves and the CC. They were indestructible and there was no way of allowing any come back or advantage because of this.
The MAC like the ARC i'd like to see as perhaps more expensive, higher armored units. That should be the trade off for spam, and a cost of spam as well.
I also like the idea about only one MAC healing another MAC at any one time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even see the problem.. This is like saying 4 SCVs repairing themselves against one zergling is imba. Trust me bilebombs melts them like nothing. You don't see people complaining about gorges healing each other or alien units.
Because the MACs are 100% automatic. Gorges take manual action. I'm pretty sure SCVs doing it require macro from the player, while the zergling does not. This means the Terran player is spending time NOT doing something else, while the Zerg player is making his next moves.
MACs are intended to be in there so Marines don't have to do all the "boring" stuff like build and weld all the time. They are not intended to be a static defense.
First, Lerks and Fades cannot kill them by themselves at all (did not attempt to use vortex on the fade). Trying to spread the damage doesn't work. The only thing that might be feasible is using the enzyme cloud from a drifter, although this was not tested.
Gorges cannot kill this setup with spit. However, gorges with bilebomb can kill the first mac in ~5 seconds, with ~5.5 seconds for the second mac and ~7 seconds for the third mac. The second and third dying from the DOT.
An Onos can kill a single mac in 2.8 seconds. Barely has any time to get repairs from the other macs.
Finally, what you have all been waiting for....
A single skulk can kill a mac with two other macs backing it up in 11.6 seconds.
With a third mac backing it up, the skulk cannot solo a mac, and obviously with only 1 mac backing the target mac up, it dies more quickly.
IMO, I think 12 seconds is a totally acceptable time range to kill a mac with two macs repairing it.
Oh cool, thanks for going into that much detail! I didn't realize skulks had more sustained DPS than fades, so I had assumed my fade not being able to kill it meant skulks could not.
I'll admit a lot of the "urgency" I felt about this issue kinda fizzled. That being said, I'm still of the opinion that they should be toned down a bit.
For something that sits in a base and does nothing but repair damage, I think it is very transferable to this situation and discussion.
And for something comparable to trying to take down the obs, it takes a minimum of 6 seconds to kill a veil with an axe, which is the shortest duration of the upgrade chambers possible.
I think the amount of time for a lone marine to kill base structures is equal to a commander who took a few extra resources to further guard his base with a few macs instead of devoting those resources to turrets with a payoff late game with the ability to heal the exo's.
The Starcraft comparison doesn't hold as in this game you have players and non-player units. Flayra at some point said something like non-player units are not supposed to be able to repel players by themselves (it's not fun beating your head against a static defense). Sentries got nerfed to hell since they were (rightfully) providing too strong of a static defense. 4 MACs (20 tres) are unkillable to anything but gorges and onos (which are pretty much a waste of res right now). As a non-player unit, it's far too tough to destroy. A comm can even save the MACs just by moving them away, where they will self heal (for free) back up in no time. Bilebomb is great, but gorges suck against all player units. You can only have a few gorges at once or else non-exos will wipe the floor with you. And when exos sit in a good defensive position with MACs, it's nigh impossible to take them out, even with a balanced alien force. I've only seen exo parties die when they try to push in (and ARCs can do the pushing for them). With MACs you can also have rambo exos running around every which way on the map, destroying everything they come across, insta-healing from any non-gorge running into them.
<!--quoteo(post=1971550:date=Sep 5 2012, 12:03 AM:name=Tailor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tailor @ Sep 5 2012, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1971550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An interesting thing to note is that it is impossible for marines to kill a crag on their own with an axe, a rifle, or a pistol. A marine can kill it with a shotgun, but only if they basically stand on top of it to ensure maximum pellet saturation, and even then it takes 10 seconds.
For something that sits in a base and does nothing but repair damage, I think it is very transferable to this situation and discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol, you have no idea what you are talking about. Axes are great building dps and murder all buildings. Crags heal a flat 10 HP or armor every second or two. Your axe does far, far more than that. I'm too lazy to do the numbers, but from experience not even 5 crags (75 tres!) is enough to out-heal one marine's axe.
This is my favorite out of all the solutions proposed so far.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2nd
its the simplest solution to the problem and it would make gameplay better in my opinion. Its BS that a mac can replace a player with a welder