Skulk wall jump and the speed cap

rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
edited August 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">just gonna bring it up now</div>Are there any plans to further develop/balance skulk wall jump?

For those who watch competitive scrim/matches you will notice it's extremely popular for aliens to go fast shift/celerity hive. Celerity is a reasonably good upgrade (could use some work), however the primary reason teams are using it atm is because it makes it easier/quicker to exploit the uncapped speed of skulk walljump and get going to speed of 16+ very very easily by just wall jumping with celerity. It's also easy(er) to use when leap comes out.


Solution: cap skulk walljump to something like ~14 (maybe even less), currently it's capped at 20 I think which is like.. warp 9, might as well not even be a cap. The mechanics of wall jump itself could use some work still too, it's fairly unintuitive right now and it's noticeably more effective on some maps and more difficult on others. It just feels inconsistent and easily exploitable right now.



just wanted to point this out to the devs and make sure they are aware.
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Comments

  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    And i thought we do it because carapace gets changed next patch so it would be a waste of time practising that. :P

    But i agree 20 is too much.
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  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    A large part of the problem is the time it takes for your speed to ramp up to your actual 'stored' speed after a wall jump isnt it? Thus allowing the jump back and forth between walls trick to be easier performed..

    Definately agree that a <b>speed cap</b> AND <b>stored speed cap</b> needs to be put in place but i think there are underlying problems with walljump as well.
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  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1966785:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:32 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Aug 25 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And i thought we do it because carapace gets changed next patch so it would be a waste of time practising that. :P

    But i agree 20 is too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ah that too, forgive me. I was not talking just about archaea though, we do it too :>
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  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like flying around maps though ... as a skulk.
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  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    Yeah its nice, also gives you some kind of free silence effect at times...

    @rantology
    We = not only Archaea, but the "competitive teams" (i wasnt talking about us either)

    PS: the :P meant that it was kinda a phun comment - innocent/fake. (i.e. teams would never exploit mechanics *twinkle* *twinkle*)
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  • {GGs} Chicken{GGs} Chicken Join Date: 2011-11-22 Member: 134663Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Yeah cele + wall jump + leap is ridic atm. Pretty much flying. Even without ele or leap you can just farm speed jumping on 1 wall so you don't leave yourself exposed hopping on two, and then just derp off.
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Turn cheats on and darwin mode. Get celerity and jump. Then just hold jump to see skulk literally fly around at 20 speed never touching the ground. Sounds off topic but is a great way to show that 20 speed is a bit too much.
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  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    I vote to remove walljump entirely until performance is improved. It isn't actually possible to get any boost whatsoever with high latency or low FPS, and then you get some ###### who already had the advantage of getting smooth a 60 who goes a thousands miles an hour up and down walls.

    I view his entire mechanic as an exploit and nothing else.
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  • mf-mf- Join Date: 2008-06-17 Member: 64463Members
    BHOP was technically an exploit and was loved for years.

    I love walljump, the max speed just needs to be toned down and it will be fine. At the moment skulks need some sort of movement based skill.
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  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1966831:date=Aug 26 2012, 12:28 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Aug 26 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->BHOP was technically an exploit and was loved for years.

    I love walljump, the max speed just needs to be toned down and it will be fine. At the moment skulks need some sort of movement based skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nice thing about bhop was that it was entirely client based. The server had almost no input in what you were doing. With walljumping, however, the server needs to verify my collision with the wall, and with latency, that never happens.
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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1966823:date=Aug 26 2012, 11:31 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 26 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I vote to remove walljump entirely until performance is improved. It isn't actually possible to get any boost whatsoever with high latency or low FPS, and then you get some ###### who already had the advantage of getting smooth a 60 who goes a thousands miles an hour up and down walls.

    I view his entire mechanic as an exploit and nothing else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You don't need a supercomputer to use walljumping.
    I'm on a dual core 3.0Ghz, and I can still do it pretty reliably.
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  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    The speed cap is definitely far too high. You don't even need celerity to exploit it, it just makes it easier.

    14 still sounds a too fast, that's a 100% increase over the skulk base speed. Cap it to 12.
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  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    what wall jump needs are high initial boosts coupled with diminishing returns hitting a hard cap around 14. so effectively you'll cap out at around 12-13, but if you spent a long time jumping between walls you could get up to 14.
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  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Speed cap sounds like a good idea to me too... I'm just curious to know what happened to the argument that alien movement doesn't scale with marine aim?
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  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1966863:date=Aug 26 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Aug 26 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speed cap sounds like a good idea to me too... I'm just curious to know what happened to the argument that alien movement doesn't scale with marine aim?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Top speed doesn't really have anything to do with that argument. Bunnyhopping in NS only gave you roughly 30% more speed, so you can understand why the current 300% increase to the speed cap in NS2 is problematic.
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  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    But jumping crevice without leap is totally fine!

    Definitely agree the speed needs a lower cap.
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  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1966790:date=Aug 25 2012, 07:49 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Aug 25 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like flying around maps though ... as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    1. Cheats 1
    2. Alltech
    3. Darwinmode
    4. Go skulk and spam leap
    5. ........
    6. Profit
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1966805:date=Aug 25 2012, 11:03 PM:name=james888)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (james888 @ Aug 25 2012, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Turn cheats on and darwin mode. Get celerity and jump. Then just hold jump to see skulk literally fly around at 20 speed never touching the ground. Sounds off topic but is a great way to show that 20 speed is a bit too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--quoteo(post=1966898:date=Aug 26 2012, 11:05 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 26 2012, 11:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1966898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Cheats 1
    2. Alltech
    3. Darwinmode
    4. Go skulk and spam leap
    5. ........
    6. Profit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Said same thing but you said it in a better way. You literally fly like a little rocket. Fun for 5 minutes...
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  • bLink`bLink` Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146506Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Jumping around crevice is fun!
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