UI guidance for new players
Typhon
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
So recently we got hives and comm chairs visible through walls. This was in an effort to aid new players, but I and others believe that even aside of the actual implementation (big bright red icon) being overpowering and distracting, its actually not particularly good information to be displaying to a new player. The enemy hive/chair is by definition deep in enemy territory, where their forces and defenses are strongest. Not the direction you should be pointing a new player towards. For the majority of the game, the hive/chair isn't even the primary objective, so highlighting it distracts from whatever the primary objective actually is at that point in time, such as defending a res node, securing an area, etc.
What would be much better to display would be some sort of 'default order' which should get the new player towards the front lines of the battle after they respawn, even if the commander doesn't have the time to explicitly give an order or is giving order by microphone (which doesn't help new players who don't know the names of the zones on the map). If an order is given by the commander, it overrides whatever these default orders might be.
Check from top to bottom:
1. If an enemy hive/chair is currently being attacked, an automatic 'attack' order is given for that location. <i>This</i> is the time when a default 'attack the hive/chair' actually makes sense: when the team is making a concerted push to attack it. Gets the player to support the attack, but doesn't send him off into enemy territory by himself. Possibly require that at least 2 players be in the zone of the chair/hive being attacked so a new player isn't given an order to help assist a rambo.
2. If friendly structures are currently being attacked, an automatic 'defend' order is given for that location. Zones containing a friendly Hive/chair would take priority over other zones (if multiple zones are being attacked).
3. If friendlies are present in the same zone as where the player died, then the order directs them back to that location with a 'rejoin your squad' order. Its a sensible default order that gets the player back with other players (so no just wandering off by himself) and back to the action.
4. If none of the above are true, an order is given to move to the nearest player in another zone (so the order doesn't direct the player to group up with a player right next to him).
Players should have the ability to turn off these default orders once they're familiar enough with the game that they feel they don't need them and can just rely upon the map and their commander.
What would be much better to display would be some sort of 'default order' which should get the new player towards the front lines of the battle after they respawn, even if the commander doesn't have the time to explicitly give an order or is giving order by microphone (which doesn't help new players who don't know the names of the zones on the map). If an order is given by the commander, it overrides whatever these default orders might be.
Check from top to bottom:
1. If an enemy hive/chair is currently being attacked, an automatic 'attack' order is given for that location. <i>This</i> is the time when a default 'attack the hive/chair' actually makes sense: when the team is making a concerted push to attack it. Gets the player to support the attack, but doesn't send him off into enemy territory by himself. Possibly require that at least 2 players be in the zone of the chair/hive being attacked so a new player isn't given an order to help assist a rambo.
2. If friendly structures are currently being attacked, an automatic 'defend' order is given for that location. Zones containing a friendly Hive/chair would take priority over other zones (if multiple zones are being attacked).
3. If friendlies are present in the same zone as where the player died, then the order directs them back to that location with a 'rejoin your squad' order. Its a sensible default order that gets the player back with other players (so no just wandering off by himself) and back to the action.
4. If none of the above are true, an order is given to move to the nearest player in another zone (so the order doesn't direct the player to group up with a player right next to him).
Players should have the ability to turn off these default orders once they're familiar enough with the game that they feel they don't need them and can just rely upon the map and their commander.
Comments
Look I know it's cool and all to give your opinion add your post count, but a "+1" is NOT the way to do it. Keep ###### oneliners away, this is the general rule for most forum.
OnT: I as a new player, didn't find the red see-through wall confusing or distracting. Tbh I barely notice it, in fact I like that there is an easy visual way to know where and how many hive/chairs are up since people tend to not say anything if they find another second base, mostly applies to EU where english isn't native languagish. With that said, I don't mind if these solution would be implemented at all, they seem solid and good. Especially the one pointing you to squad mates as people tend to go rambo as they are used too, as most FPS pubs these days are built to support that kind of play.
What would be much better to display would be some sort of 'default order' which should get the new player towards the front lines of the battle after they respawn, even if the commander doesn't have the time to explicitly give an order or is giving order by microphone (which doesn't help new players who don't know the names of the zones on the map). If an order is given by the commander, it overrides whatever these default orders might be.
Check from top to bottom:
1. If an enemy hive/chair is currently being attacked, an automatic 'attack' order is given for that location. <i>This</i> is the time when a default 'attack the hive/chair' actually makes sense: when the team is making a concerted push to attack it. Gets the player to support the attack, but doesn't send him off into enemy territory by himself. Possibly require that at least 2 players be in the zone of the chair/hive being attacked so a new player isn't given an order to help assist a rambo.
2. If friendly structures are currently being attacked, an automatic 'defend' order is given for that location. Zones containing a friendly Hive/chair would take priority over other zones (if multiple zones are being attacked).
3. If friendlies are present in the same zone as where the player died, then the order directs them back to that location with a 'rejoin your squad' order. Its a sensible default order that gets the player back with other players (so no just wandering off by himself) and back to the action.
4. If none of the above are true, an order is given to move to the nearest player in another zone (so the order doesn't direct the player to group up with a player right next to him).
Players should have the ability to turn off these default orders once they're familiar enough with the game that they feel they don't need them and can just rely upon the map and their commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Sadly the Dev said it's staying whether we like it or not.
I fail to see how explicitly giving players incorrect orders is supposed to help the situation. 3 Skulk chewing on a resource node, uhoh a marine is attacking a cyst somewhere! We have been given an order to defend, lets go! Marines closing in on a harvester near base. I have a friendly skulk in the next room, I have an order to go there!
No. Giving static orders will never work in a dynamic game like NS.
@imbalanxd: static orders are given already and work great: automatic build power node, automatic build structures, banners saying need a commander, hive death imminent etc. as long as it doesn't over ride commander's orders, they are some of the best methods to guide new players.
@imbalanxd: static orders are given already and work great: automatic build power node, automatic build structures, banners saying need a commander, hive death imminent etc. as long as it doesn't over ride commander's orders, they are some of the best methods to guide new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait wait wait... You're a playtester and you are advocating automatic defend orders whenever structures are attacked? Hmmm, well I guess that explains quite a bit.
I've also already expressed concern about automatic build orders passing themselves off as commander issued orders. I think its pretty vital the difference be known and clearly displayed. The other things you mentioned are examples of information display, not static orders.
I'll also mention that as described, this system would only trigger when you spawn in order to get new players back to the front lines. It would not be constantly running once you're out and doing things, so the situation you described of attacking a res node and then being told to go defend something wouldn't happen. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in the OP.
If the commander isn't commanding or communicating the extremely obvious (and in fact you can give a prompt to the commander to hold his hand and ensure it doesn't over ride his strategy, and then as the op said, turn them off down the road) such as defend the base power node thats under attack, then yes I think this would be invaluable to teaching new players and commanders the important things to focus on. Its an improvement over the current complete absence of guidance regarding the basics and priorities.
Edit: just thought I'd note to you that I have been vocally against banners, red hive icons, and even the mini map..
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Well it is a quick way to bump a thread if you simply agree with the OP. People might disagree with the "+1" posts and even I am not a fan, but it's not against the rules of these forums. However, there is a rule stating "<i>If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all</i>". Please leave the moderating of the forums to us :)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
As for the Hive/CC icons, yes they are here to stay. And I personally think it is not relaying the correct information either. But it does show the main objective. I've seen newbies that keep attacking the "red icon" because it is in their mind the main objective, they keep dying because it is indeed in a well defended area. After a while they catch on, most of the time and start sticking together. This is on the marine team mostly, which is also the team most new player tend to prefer from what I've seen. However I've also seen new player completely oblivious to the "death, rinse and repeat" thing and just keep going there, even if there is a big clog/hydra/whip wall of DEWM in their way. Because the HuD tells them with a big red shiny target so to speak. They wont even try a different route, because they don't know the map and just go in the direction that is most direct :P
The auto attack/build/defend orders are a different thing, it can indeed show newbies to build stuff. But it is a double edged sword if it is an automated system that bypasses the commander if he isn't keeping tabs on it. However it is a way to lessen the stress on the commander in pub games. I'm simply not sure about this one, as it does teach newbies stuff, but also can backfire...
I for one would love to see some kind of commander controlled squad system (marine team mostly) so he can designate teams, and an automated system that shows your squad members. Basically teaching newbie marine player to stick together. Maybe the alien team could use something similar though. Gorge Squad :P -> protect the Onos or heal your team mates? Heck, I dunno just thinking out loud here :)
There is going to be a way to disable it though, for more experienced players that no longer need it. Not sure what it will affect, but cl_autohelp 0 will probably make a return (DOOODEEEW :P)
If the commander isn't commanding or communicating the extremely obvious (and in fact you can give a prompt to the commander to hold his hand and ensure it doesn't over ride his strategy, and then as the op said, turn them off down the road) such as defend the base power node thats under attack, then yes I think this would be invaluable to teaching new players and commanders the important things to focus on. Its an improvement over the current complete absence of guidance regarding the basics and priorities.
Edit: just thought I'd note to you that I have been vocally against banners, red hive icons, and even the mini map..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I'm also against those things, but the reasons need to be right. Most people's reasons for not liking the hive/cc indicators are purely aesthetic, which warrants n consideration in my opinion.
I also think that customisable UIs are completely unacceptable in anything outside of MMOs like WoW. Its tacky and its inelegant, and nobody does it. Any potential solution must be universally applicable and unchangeable.
Thinking about it, the main things would be "press C to open your minimap", "listen to your commander and follow your team mates", "kill the bad guys".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to advocate against the idea that notifications and such helps new players. If you look at a carefully tested game that try to teach new features, e.g. portal, you might notice they usually do so by introducing slowly the features one by one, splitting them up in different aspects, and certainly not by providing a information firework that shows everything at once. It teaches something by hiding useless information, not by showing everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 needs moar of this.
NS2 needs moar of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Letting your escort die, clearly a noob.
NS2 needs moar of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that looks like a totally awesome game, man. where can i buy it?
We don't need all this crap with banners, and <b><u>telepathic</u></b> command point status bars, and status bars in general and always on floating icons!
NS1 had a very clean and <b><u><i><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->UN-INTRUSIVE<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></i></u></b> "UI" or augmented reality, that gave you ALL the info you needed around you and everything else through the minimap! (which was opened WHEN NEEDED)
So use the freaking MINIMAP for discovered techpoints (or structures in general), implement health indicators there for friendly structures if needed!
And stop this f-ing nonsense with telepathically announcing the EXACT stutus of techpoints! It's taking away immersion!
In NS1 there was some uncertainty over the hive's health (1% and 100% looked the same) and it built up huge suspense and desperation (<b><u>IMMERSION</u></b>) when taking one down. (For NS2 maybe you could have rough indicators for hive health like all the other structures.)
Which brings me to my second point, STOP F-ING HAND-WALKING ALL PLAYERS BECAUSE OF THE OH SO DELICATE AND FRAGILE NEW PLAYERS!
A big part of what makes a game fun is the challenge to learn it. Have a tutorial, instructional videos, help-widgets - WHATEVER - just DON'T make it a PERMANENT part of the game! Players won't stop playing a game they just bought because of a steep learning curve. Part of what made Diablo 2 (LOD) so fun to play was reading up and discovering all the things one could do to improve.
First players will learn the combat.
Then they will learn teamwork (sticking together or dying fast).
Then how defending base and RT is important.
- Now you got your basic soldier foundation. On top of this will come more advanced skills and understanding that will be picked up with experience by seeing what others do, listening to com, and hopefully thinking on ones own!
I dont know your experience, but in my own i would say that most PC games, irrespective of genre, used to allow customized UI to certain degrees.
Only when "porting" from consoles to PCs became the norm, did this become such a special (and often missed) feature.
Most of what i would consider to be "PC focused" games include said feature .. and now even crossplatformers are jumping in,
Dishonored would like to say <a href="http://www.shacknews.com/article/74820/dishonoreds-ui-options-are-exciting" target="_blank">hi</a>.
Only when "porting" from consoles to PCs became the norm, did this become such a special (and often missed) feature.
Most of what i would consider to be "PC focused" games include said feature .. and now even crossplatformers are jumping in,
Dishonored would like to say <a href="http://www.shacknews.com/article/74820/dishonoreds-ui-options-are-exciting" target="_blank">hi</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, who doesn't love customizable UI option? It's a slap in the face when PC games don't have these options!
Imbalanxd, dude read you own words before you reply :D
What would be much better to display would be some sort of 'default order' which should get the new player towards the front lines of the battle after they respawn, even if the commander doesn't have the time to explicitly give an order or is giving order by microphone (which doesn't help new players who don't know the names of the zones on the map). If an order is given by the commander, it overrides whatever these default orders might be.
Check from top to bottom:
1. If an enemy hive/chair is currently being attacked, an automatic 'attack' order is given for that location. <i>This</i> is the time when a default 'attack the hive/chair' actually makes sense: when the team is making a concerted push to attack it. Gets the player to support the attack, but doesn't send him off into enemy territory by himself. Possibly require that at least 2 players be in the zone of the chair/hive being attacked so a new player isn't given an order to help assist a rambo.
2. If friendly structures are currently being attacked, an automatic 'defend' order is given for that location. Zones containing a friendly Hive/chair would take priority over other zones (if multiple zones are being attacked).
3. If friendlies are present in the same zone as where the player died, then the order directs them back to that location with a 'rejoin your squad' order. Its a sensible default order that gets the player back with other players (so no just wandering off by himself) and back to the action.
4. If none of the above are true, an order is given to move to the nearest player in another zone (so the order doesn't direct the player to group up with a player right next to him).
Players should have the ability to turn off these default orders once they're familiar enough with the game that they feel they don't need them and can just rely upon the map and their commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
It can be annoying when your comm is not good at giving orders to his team, makes it very hard for your team to win when you have a couple of new players.
This sounds like a good idea and one that I think could work well, perhaps have it notify spawning aliens/marines and maybe the 2 within closest proximity to the warning.
The comm already get the message but doesn't always pass it on.
Imbalanxd, dude read you own words before you reply :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I'm a huge noob, because I'm struggling to think of a single mainstream shooter that allowed UI customisation passed disabling game tips. Maybe you could enlighten me?
<!--quoteo(post=1964834:date=Aug 19 2012, 03:00 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 19 2012, 03:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont know your experience, but in my own i would say that most PC games, irrespective of genre, used to allow customized UI to certain degrees.
Only when "porting" from consoles to PCs became the norm, did this become such a special (and often missed) feature.
Most of what i would consider to be "PC focused" games include said feature .. and now even crossplatformers are jumping in,
Dishonored would like to say <a href="http://www.shacknews.com/article/74820/dishonoreds-ui-options-are-exciting" target="_blank">hi</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dishonoured isn't a multiplayer game, and its as much of a first person shooter as skyrim. Irrelevant reference says hi.
Counter strike, Day of Defeat, TFC and most HL mods allowed for custom hud's. Battlefield series have it set at server level (hardcore mode). Heck even RB6 - Raven shield had it.
Its not exactly rare in the pc world for huds to be customizable.
Is that a personal sentiment, or are you genuinely proposing the UI-sections of the client be forcibly locked down?
Its not exactly rare in the pc world for huds to be customizable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok I can't speak for TFC, but I probably have like an entire year in playtime on the goldsource engine, and I have never seen a mod where the UI could be described as customizable. Keep in mind that just because it is possible to hack in a game, does not mean the developers support it. Similarly a UI is not customizable unless the game explicitly supports it.
And server level UI changes are "acceptable" I suppose, only because its player wide. However its not customisation because you have no control over it.
<!--quoteo(post=1964879:date=Aug 19 2012, 11:20 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 19 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is that a personal sentiment, or are you genuinely proposing the UI-sections of the client be forcibly locked down?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt I would be able to find a concrete design heuristic stating this, so I guess I would have to say personal opinion. I'm not saying the concrete design heuristic doesn't exist, I'm just saying I wouldn't be able to find it.
And server level UI changes are "acceptable" I suppose, only because its player wide. However its not customisation because you have no control over it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was not just TFC, it was all half life mods including Day of Defeat, this was not hacking it was what is known as modding or modifying in this case it was your HUD.
I recall skinning my steyr in CS with a coca cola skin, adding new sound packs the list goes on which again user mod files that could be shared.
The game offers files I can go and edit...package and share with others, thats supporting it in the truest form and allows for the most customization.
Most have file consistency checks now and as a quicker and easier solution (*cough*EA*cough*) they just make a hardcore mode (strips away x-hair unless iron sights, removes ammo counter on hud etc etc.
What is being proposed here could be a really cool feature to help the basic pub games play better, more accessible and easier to pick up (as people dont stick at something too long when they are just constantly dieing and not knowing what to do. Being reliant on a human comm is not ideal, this sounds like a good way to allow new players some help, make it either client or server based option and accept that the UI may change from server to server or from player to player (depending whether client or server path taken).
I recall skinning my steyr in CS with a coca cola skin, adding new sound packs the list goes on which again user mod files that could be shared.
The game offers files I can go and edit...package and share with others, thats supporting it in the truest form and allows for the most customization.
Most have file consistency checks now and as a quicker and easier solution (*cough*EA*cough*) they just make a hardcore mode (strips away x-hair unless iron sights, removes ammo counter on hud etc etc.
What is being proposed here could be a really cool feature to help the basic pub games play better, more accessible and easier to pick up (as people dont stick at something too long when they are just constantly dieing and not knowing what to do. Being reliant on a human comm is not ideal, this sounds like a good way to allow new players some help, make it either client or server based option and accept that the UI may change from server to server or from player to player (depending whether client or server path taken).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oooh, you're talking about aesthetic customisations like models. I have no problem with that kind of stuff, I heavily modded my NS1, the black ops stuff was the best. I don't think its particularly important, and it can lead to exploitation, but ye, I don't mind that stuff. I'm talking about interface customisation. Whether your gun looks like a rifle or a vending machine is irrelevant to the user interface. I'm talking about information access and display. When you design an interface, minimalism is important, and you give the user what you think they need. When you start introducing elements which can be turned off, you clearly aren't giving the user what they need anymore, and that's why its a poor solution.
No I am talking HUD components (Head Up Display - Another term for the information presented on your screen such as, minimap, ammo counters or even cross hairs just to name a few.
You said no games offer customizable UI but the minute you change the on screen HUD, which all the games I have listed do, that changes the UI.
The idea of the OP has great merit, allowing customisable UI through either client or server side is how you would expect this to be integrated (as may not be wanted for competitive play...but then again that change might be a mod).
@Imbalanxd: Ever seen <a href="http://visualhud.pk69.com/" target="_blank">this</a>? There is even more possible with the Quake Live HUD, like an indicator which tells you whether you die in 1 railgun or rocket hit.
Tribes: Ascend at least allows separate toggles for most of the HUD to get rid of the annoying stuff.
Firefall has customization.
Last but not least, "noone does it" is not an argument against it. E.g. noone does FPS/RTS games.
When you start introducing elements which can be turned off, you clearly aren't giving the user what they need anymore, and that's why its a poor solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're forgetting one major point: There's more than <b>one</b> type of player. Different players (read skill levels) = different needs.
So some users might not need the additions, but others might. Giving those that need them the option to have them and those that don't the option to remove them.. serves everyone.
Yeah, toggles definitely need to be in the game, at least for the annoying hint screens and stuff like that.