Aliens upgrades
Rapid_Sausage
Join Date: 2012-08-05 Member: 154811Members
Join Date: 2012-08-05 Member: 154811Members
<div class="IPBDescription">we shouldn't be limited to only one per upgrade structure</div>The thing that bothered me the most in the 216 patch was that aliens can't have 2 upgrades that an upgrade stucture provides (ex carapace + regeneration, adrenaline + celerity), it's like telling the marines that they can either have the grenade launcher/flame thrower OR the jetpack.
it's very limiting and can only allow for so many tactics, i would like to have more versatility with my class customization, we already have to spend a nice sum of personal resources to get the lerks/fades, why can't we customiza them to the role we see fit?
it's very limiting and can only allow for so many tactics, i would like to have more versatility with my class customization, we already have to spend a nice sum of personal resources to get the lerks/fades, why can't we customiza them to the role we see fit?
Comments
The second hive will open up a second tech tree (either Crag/Shade/Shift) and you can take on of those evolutions. It is better balanced to prevent an onos from getting regen and carapace and just being immortal. It also prevents a lerk from getting celerity + adrenaline which is a sick combination for such a fast energy heavy alien.
You can eventually choose 3 paths, and each path has a set of abilities you will have to pick. You are still able to customize it the way you want it, but each alien will have a balanced set of abilities.
The second hive will open up a second tech tree (either Crag/Shade/Shift) and you can take on of those evolutions. It is better balanced to prevent an onos from getting regen and carapace and just being immortal. It also prevents a lerk from getting celerity + adrenaline which is a sick combination for such a fast energy heavy alien.
You can eventually choose 3 paths, and each path has a set of abilities you will have to pick. You are still able to customize it the way you want it, but each alien will have a balanced set of abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
onos aren't immortal with cara/regen, but skilled fades come close. other classes aren't unbalanced with cara+regen.
because it's too powerful.
because it's too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've actually purposed this. Both are very powerful combos.
People just need to stop crying and play the damn game. Was perfectly balanced to have cara+regen on onos, fade was only issue. All other trees were balanced aswell. Silence+Camo, balanced. Celerity+Adren, balanaced.
People just need to stop crying and play the damn game. Was perfectly balanced to have cara+regen on onos, fade was only issue. All other trees were balanced aswell. Silence+Camo, balanced. Celerity+Adren, balanaced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg, is UW one of those developers that succumb to the pressures of whiners that demand nerfs of things already in good shape?
its self balancing if you ask me
its self balancing if you ask me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Personally I think Carapace and Adrenaline are too powerful in their basic design. Sure they're great to use, but they require absolutely no skill. Regardless, limiting players to only the most powerful evolutions is only hurting the overall design, not helping it.
carapace and adrenaline FEEL too powerful because they're usually available relatively early in the game before marines can upgrade their armor.
if you think about it, aliens don't get straight up damage upgrades the more the game progresses, they rely on the available upgrades (passive and active), so carapace + adrenaline essentially fulfill the role of damage/combat ability upgrades.
one way to fix this is to make carapace/adrenaline increase in intensity the more shells/spurs you have, up to 3 levels.
but it is a bad idea to nerf something so hard because a percentage of players deem it too powerful.
its self balancing if you ask me<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not to mention regen doesn't work in combat.
if you think about it, aliens don't get straight up damage upgrades the more the game progresses, they rely on the available upgrades (passive and active), so carapace + adrenaline essentially fulfill the role of damage/combat ability upgrades.
one way to fix this is to make carapace/adrenaline increase in intensity the more shells/spurs you have, up to 3 levels.
but it is a bad idea to nerf something so hard because a percentage of players deem it too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't just FEEL to powerful, they ARE too powerful. They are the only evolutions which require absolutely no skill to use. One is a flat benefit to armor, the other is a flat benefit to energy regeneration. All other evolutions are based on promoting one kind of play style vs. another.
Technically you could count Silence into that assessment as well, but the flat bonus of a "lack of sound" doesn't numerically benefit a player -> it also only benefits a player who is good at using the lack of sound to sneak up on someone.
Check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118789&st=0" target="_blank">this thread for some thoughts on replacing Carapace</a>, it was written before Adrenaline was added in though I've been meaning to suggest removing Adrenaline as well. If you notice in the topic, I don't suggest removing the scaling of Kharaan armor - I suggest moving to a Hive based system. Please take a look see, I think its a good read.
Technically you could count Silence into that assessment as well, but the flat bonus of a "lack of sound" doesn't numerically benefit a player -> it also only benefits a player who is good at using the lack of sound to sneak up on someone.
Check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118789&st=0" target="_blank">this thread for some thoughts on replacing Carapace</a>, it was written before Adrenaline was added in though I've been meaning to suggest removing Adrenaline as well. If you notice in the topic, I don't suggest removing the scaling of Kharaan armor - I suggest moving to a Hive based system. Please take a look see, I think its a good read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could also say, following your logic, that weapon and armor upgrades for marines are too powerful. They require absolutely no skill to use. One is a flat benefit to armor, the other is a flat benefit to damage. All other weapons are based on promoting one kind of play style vs. another. And these upgrades work for EVERY weapon and you don't have to sacrifice one for a different upgrade. You will always have your weapons and armor upgrades unless the arms lab is destroyed.
Not saying they are, just saying that since it's a flat benefit which, in your eyes, takes no skill, doesn't automatically make it OP.
Oh yes, you're absolutely correct. But that's something which the Dev's have said they want: flat increases for Marines, no flat increases <u>as evolutions</u> for Kharaa. I'm not against Kharaa getting a flat increase, I just think it should be on the Hives instead of as a player selected evolution. That way players naturally gain a benefit as the game goes on, not in something they must choose to research, and they aren't being forced to choose Armor over Regen or Silence.
Its not that flat benefits are "the devil", its that they're a boring option in a system of evolutions which are supposed to add an influx of dynamism and intricacy into the game. If Carapace keeps you alive without you doing anything and if Adrenaline keeps you attacking without you doing anything, then why would you use any other ability which does not have that same guarantee?
Carapace ALWAYS trumps Regen
Adrenaline ALWAYS trumps Celerity, and Hyper-Mutation for that matter too.
^This is why its bad. (really take a look at that thread, pretty sure I go over all of this)
P.S. does anyone even use hyper-mutation... ever?
Oh yes, you're absolutely correct. But that's something which the Dev's have said they want: flat increases for Marines, no flat increases <u>as evolutions</u> for Kharaa. I'm not against Kharaa getting a flat increase, I just think it should be on the Hives instead of as a player selected evolution. That way players naturally gain a benefit as the game goes on, not in something they must choose to research, and they aren't being forced to choose Armor over Regen or Silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TBH, I'd be fine with stuff being tied to the hives if it wasn't lost upon the destruction of the hive. ATM, mid-end game, if you don't have at least 2 hives, if not 3, then you're pretty much owned. And at times (could be due to pub players not wanting to follow the Khamm's orders...) it seems like a couple marines (specifically marines with GLs) can take out a hive in less than 30 seconds. Basically once you lose your second hive in the mid-late game and even sometimes in the early game it's GG. You just lost all of your upgrades which kept you even with the marines. Now they have more upgrades and have pushed you back, preventing you from rebuilding and getting those vital upgrades. Maybe a bit of a system like JP. You get your 2nd or 3rd hive and there's an upgrade building which you can place anywhere where you research your tech and as long as you don't lose that building you'd keep your tech regardless of how many hives you have.
The problem as I see it is that marines can drop a second CS and as soon as it finishes, drop the PL. Once the PL is dropped, they can forget about defending their second CS. It serves absolutely no purpose unless the PL gets destroyed. Also, the difference between having alien tech in a different building than the hives is that 1) you can place it back in your main hive (or wherever you want) that is much more defended than what is more than likely the front lines and 2) You'd keep those vital upgrades even if your 2nd or 3rd hive was destroyed (couldn't research them if the hives were destroyed, but you'd keep the ones you'd already sunk all that tres into) thus allowing the chance for a comeback if you're forced into your first hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1962162:date=Aug 13 2012, 06:55 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 13 2012, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Samus1111111:
Its not that flat benefits are "the devil", its that they're a boring option in a system of evolutions which are supposed to add an influx of dynamism and intricacy into the game. If Carapace keeps you alive without you doing anything and if Adrenaline keeps you attacking without you doing anything, then why would you use any other ability which does not have that same guarantee?
Carapace ALWAYS trumps Regen
Adrenaline ALWAYS trumps Celerity, and Hyper-Mutation for that matter too.
^This is why its bad. (really take a look at that thread, pretty sure I go over all of this)
P.S. does anyone even use hyper-mutation... ever?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, cara always trumps regen, but I believe that's because it helps you in-combat. Regen requires you to run out of combat and stay out of combat for it to start working. Maybe people would choose regen if (as other people have suggested) instead of requiring out of combat and then giving you a fast regen, worked in combat and just increased the alien's natural regen by a certain amount.\
I must argue and adrenaline trumping celerity. That depends on the current lifeform you are. In most cases, yes, adrenaline trumps celerity, but that is only due to the role of the lifeform. For example, I'd never take adrenaline on a skulk since the skulk is meant to be fast and attack quickly. I have plenty of energy (unless I'm spamming parasite) so that it makes adrenaline useless for me. Now, on a lerk or a fade, you'd want adrenaline since lerks are dumping gas which is energy heavy and fades are blinking around all the time (again, energy heavy). Lerks are naturally fast and the bonus of flying makes it hard enough for marines to hit them that they don't need any extra speed. Fades have blink or shadow step which means they can get out using their abilities and don't have to rely on speed. Gorge is obvious that you'd want adrenaline since you're using your abilities all the time and thus using tons of energy. Speed isn't important because you're either 1) hiding behind your wall 2) hiding behind an onos or 3) belly sliding away. Onos is a toss-up. I think people tend to pick adrenaline in order to be able to use stomp more, but maybe if celerity didn't require a ramping up in the speed and was instead a flat bonus, more people might pick it.
And no, I have never used hyper-mutation, but it does seem useful if you ever (for whatever crazy reason) decide that you no longer want to be an onos or fade or even lerk. Maybe your team desperately needs a gorge and no one else wants to be it? XD.
The answer is no. Ironically though, do you realize what your suggestion entails?
This change was made because overall, the combinations of Regen + Carapace and celerity + adrenaline had the potential to get out of hand. Next to that, having to actually choose between the one or the other presents another choice which - however strange it may seem - actually promotes diversion. If you don't get this, read the info on Diablo 3 design. They chose to limit the amount of choices to increase diversity as well, and succeeded (yes, they still need to balance their things out too).
Basically it was a well-thought out change. I personally think it'll improve gameplay, aliens were way too potent in 215. This is one of the changes that turned that tide.
This change was made because overall, the combinations of Regen + Carapace and celerity + adrenaline had the potential to get out of hand. Next to that, having to actually choose between the one or the other presents another choice which - however strange it may seem - actually promotes diversion. If you don't get this, read the info on Diablo 3 design. They chose to limit the amount of choices to increase diversity as well, and succeeded (yes, they still need to balance their things out too).
Basically it was a well-thought out change. I personally think it'll improve gameplay, aliens were way too potent in 215. This is one of the changes that turned that tide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to see the ability, when a fourth hive is built, to pick one of the previously locked options. Since it takes so much work to secure and build a 4th hive, it should be rewarded. Now, with the mutation selection locked to 1 per hive, there is no point in a fourth hive.
turned the tide abit too much in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1962234:date=Aug 13 2012, 08:58 AM:name=Samus1111111)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Samus1111111 @ Aug 13 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1962234"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see the ability, when a fourth hive is built, to pick one of the previously locked options. Since it takes so much work to secure and build a 4th hive, it should be rewarded. Now, with the mutation selection locked to 1 per hive, there is no point in a fourth hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
games that let a 4th hive be built is one of two things:
1. The game is nearing an end and no one will really have the time to make use of the unlocked upgrade.
2. The game is ridiculously unbalanced and shouldn't have lasted that long in the first place.
1. The game is nearing an end and no one will really have the time to make use of the unlocked upgrade.
2. The game is ridiculously unbalanced and shouldn't have lasted that long in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or there's a third in my experience:
3) marines have been pushed back into their base, but are still able to hold out since they have enough upgrades. The dropping of a 4th hive and allowing a 4th mutation could be the extra boost that the aliens need to get over the hump that is turtleing marines.
This occurs when the alien's have spent their pres already to push the marines back into their base and at that point it's just a waiting game for alien's to build up enough pres (assuming the alien's don't burn it all by going rambo into the marine base, but that's not a prob with the game, but with the players).
3) marines have been pushed back into their base, but are still able to hold out since they have enough upgrades. The dropping of a 4th hive and allowing a 4th mutation could be the extra boost that the aliens need to get over the hump that is turtleing marines.
This occurs when the alien's have spent their pres already to push the marines back into their base and at that point it's just a waiting game for alien's to build up enough pres (assuming the alien's don't burn it all by going rambo into the marine base, but that's not a prob with the game, but with the players).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
don't you think that balancing the game based on something that has a 1 in 10 (or so) chance of occurring isn't right?
I wouldn't call it a 1 in 10...
As you stated, it doesn't happen often and at that point, the game is basically over. Why not give them some incentive to push for an objective to end the game? In my experience (limited to pubs, haven't and probably won't play competitive), marines can survive in their home base almost infinitely unless enough of the aliens save up and simultaneously go fade and/or onos. Getting a 4th hive is extremely difficult and should thus be rewarded. I honestly don't think that it would imbalance the game in any way since it would give the aliens incentive and it would help end games that are already over. Heck, most marines (in these situations) end up just recycling so that the game ends and a new one can start.
So imagine this, aliens start at Generator on docking.
They upgrade Generator to a Crag Hive so they can build Shells and have <b>ether</b> Cara or regen.
They then build Tram Hive and the commander chooses to upgrade it to a Crag Hive as well.
They can now choose Cara <b>and</b> Regen, because they made the choice to have two Crag Hives.
This would expand to be the same for the others, if you wanted Adrenalin and Celerity and Hypermutation, your Khamm could choose to build 3 Shift Hives etc.
This seems a logical progression of forcing only one upgrade per type, force the tactical upgrade choices for the Khamm.
Obviously the best choice might be to still go, First hive Crag for cara, second hive shift for adren, but there can be more choices.
Angelusz -> Any particular place you'd suggest to look? I'd be interested in reading about that.
So imagine this, aliens start at Generator on docking.
They upgrade Generator to a Crag Hive so they can build Shells and have <b>ether</b> Cara or regen.
They then build Tram Hive and the commander chooses to upgrade it to a Crag Hive as well.
They can now choose Cara <b>and</b> Regen, because they made the choice to have two Crag Hives.
This would expand to be the same for the others, if you wanted Adrenalin and Celerity and Hypermutation, your Khamm could choose to build 3 Shift Hives etc.
This seems a logical progression of forcing only one upgrade per type, force the tactical upgrade choices for the Khamm.
Obviously the best choice might be to still go, First hive Crag for cara, second hive shift for adren, but there can be more choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting thought, but it would dramatically reduce the number of available upgrades, which I think is the wrong direction to be moving. More upgrades need to be both available and viable.
cara is probably better if you plan to go all-in against marines. but if you are merely trying to get extractors down, regeneration can be more handy, even for a skulk. this is also because carapace slows you down quite a bit, making it harder to escape without taking quite some damage. people didn't mind that due to the leap upgrade. but they fixed leap to be affected by the slow as well now. when at full health, leap usually lets you escape from approaching marines. you can also use regen to parasite marines (which will probably be more useful in the next builds) or to take down single marines every now and then.
that said, i still think carapace is overall more powerful right now, especially when you are attacking with some teammates at the same time. but with some minor cara nerf, these two evolutions will both make sense, depending on your playtyle.
as for silence, i think it is quite underrated. especially when you have leap, it is easy to confuse a marine in melee range. it can also hide the fact that a gorge is healing just around the corner and in bigger battles, it can buy you several seconds of 1v1 (or at least 1v at-least-not-all-of-them) if the rest of the marines are distracted by something or someone (e.g. fade, onos). i'm not sure if this is also true on a competitive level (you can hear the marine being hit), but you will probably not notice this on a mini-map while busy shooting at something (requires aim and your focus) whereas teamspeak has a delay of 1-2 seconds. so while the actual gain will depend on your enemies awareness, there should still be some combat benefit overall (not all marines focusing you right away) even against the very good ones.