The tradeoffs of lifeform upgrades
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I don't think they balance out</div>So when I resumed playing the beta a few weeks ago, I was stunned that individual alien upgrades had been introduced. Not stunned in a bad way, just stunned like, it was a bold move and could make things interesting. But after playing with it as comm for a few games, I don't think its working out. As I said, I wasn't active when the change was first introduced, so forgive me if this has been done to death.
The primary "problem" with this upgrade system is upgrading something when there is nobody to use it. Aliens aren't the same as marines. Marine weapons can be recycled, and even then, a marine can buy a good 2-3 shotguns before being out of resources, making it a pretty sure bet that your shotgun upgrade is going to be utilised. With aliens its a different story. In 10 or 15 minutes of gameplay, the average alien will have one, at most two chances to evolve into a higher lifeform. When you lose that lifeform, its gone. It isn't coming back. And any upgrades the comm researched can almost be said to go with it, because if there are no other players using that lifeform, the upgrade becomes useless.
Now this isn't reeaally a problem, its a tradeoff. Its what strategy is all about; risk reward. For example: upgrading leap can be seen as a low risk. You know its going to be used, because you know that at any one time, a lot of people are going to be skulks, and leap is going to be used a lot. In a different case you have something like blink, expensive, and applies to very few life forms. You can pre-emptively upgrade it, hoping someone goes fade, or maybe ask someone to go fade, and make sure blink is up as soon as they evolve, or you can begin researching it as soon as you see a fade on the battle field. But at any time that person can die, or they can change their mind, or sometimes its just a case of noone going fade, and that is the risk factor.
So with low risk comes minimal payoff in the form of leap, and with high risk comes great payoff in the form of blink... right? Well, I don't think its working that way to be honest. Sure, blink is good, but so is leap. With the tradeoff, a fade with blink should be exponentially more powerful than he is without it. Or should I rather say, the gain that a fade gets with blink, should be much greater than the gain that a skulk gets with leap, but I definitely do not think it is working that way. Considering the amount of risk involved with upgrading blink, it should be a profound game changer, but it isn't. In fact, given the risk of upgrading even something like spikes, it too should be a (maybe less) profound game changer, but once again it really isn't. I don't think this risk factor of the alien upgrade economy has been fully taken into account, and I think its effects on the alien teams ability to consistently provide opposition to marines is showing.
That's pretty much my main point, this one is more of a side-note and pertains to how this upgrade system favours "competitive play", for lack of a better word.
I think this lifeform based upgrade system heavily favours competitive play because of the aforementioned risk involved. There's a big difference between researching an upgrade because someone <b>might </b>use a lifeform, and researching an upgrade because you know your teammate is evolving into that lifeform soon. Even then, if you are in a pub game and someone has explicitly told you he is going to evolve into lifeform x and requires upgrade y, the direct value of that upgrade is related to how good said player is. How well is he going to use the upgrade, and how long will he survive in order to make use of the upgrade? These are things you cannot possibly know in random public play, but things which must be known if you are to accurately estimate the risks and payoffs involved with choosing an upgrade. And that, after all, is the fundamental basis for any real time strategy game. Without that its just clicking buttons and waiting for timers.
Furthermore, there is this interesting case of lack of "synergy" between upgrades from different classes. That isn't to say a fade with blink and a lerk with spikes will ruin each others mojo, not at all. But think of it this way: the "value" of an upgrade can in most cases be directly attributed to the number of people using it. If you upgrade spikes, and your team has one lerk, the upgrade could be said to be worth x. However, if you have 5 lerks, the upgrade could then be said to be worth 5x. Thats obviously not an exact science or anything, but you get the point. Now this is the problem. Almost always the alien commander must take multiple lifeform upgrades. For example, my first move is to go leap, then blink, then spikes. However, it can be argued that each upgrade for a different lifeform detriments the value of the other upgrades. This is because the more lerks I have, the fewer skulks I have, which means increasing the value of spikes decreases the value of leap. And every fade I have massively decreases the number of lerks, as a fade costs almost two lerks.
Now that's all fine and well, I can't definitively prove that the system I just described is a "bad one". However, it is my theory that instead of the strength of the alien team (pseudo) linearly increasing as more resource are spent on upgrades, it is almost kept constant due to this fluctuation in the contribution of each upgrade. It is my opinion that (although it may sound boring) alien lifeform upgrades need to be amalgamated into a single upgrade which benefits all lifeforms, pretty much mimicking the effect a new hive used to have. This way the contribution of the upgrade can't fluctuate, and the risk tradeoff is kept constant, and much more manageable for public and competitive play alike.
The primary "problem" with this upgrade system is upgrading something when there is nobody to use it. Aliens aren't the same as marines. Marine weapons can be recycled, and even then, a marine can buy a good 2-3 shotguns before being out of resources, making it a pretty sure bet that your shotgun upgrade is going to be utilised. With aliens its a different story. In 10 or 15 minutes of gameplay, the average alien will have one, at most two chances to evolve into a higher lifeform. When you lose that lifeform, its gone. It isn't coming back. And any upgrades the comm researched can almost be said to go with it, because if there are no other players using that lifeform, the upgrade becomes useless.
Now this isn't reeaally a problem, its a tradeoff. Its what strategy is all about; risk reward. For example: upgrading leap can be seen as a low risk. You know its going to be used, because you know that at any one time, a lot of people are going to be skulks, and leap is going to be used a lot. In a different case you have something like blink, expensive, and applies to very few life forms. You can pre-emptively upgrade it, hoping someone goes fade, or maybe ask someone to go fade, and make sure blink is up as soon as they evolve, or you can begin researching it as soon as you see a fade on the battle field. But at any time that person can die, or they can change their mind, or sometimes its just a case of noone going fade, and that is the risk factor.
So with low risk comes minimal payoff in the form of leap, and with high risk comes great payoff in the form of blink... right? Well, I don't think its working that way to be honest. Sure, blink is good, but so is leap. With the tradeoff, a fade with blink should be exponentially more powerful than he is without it. Or should I rather say, the gain that a fade gets with blink, should be much greater than the gain that a skulk gets with leap, but I definitely do not think it is working that way. Considering the amount of risk involved with upgrading blink, it should be a profound game changer, but it isn't. In fact, given the risk of upgrading even something like spikes, it too should be a (maybe less) profound game changer, but once again it really isn't. I don't think this risk factor of the alien upgrade economy has been fully taken into account, and I think its effects on the alien teams ability to consistently provide opposition to marines is showing.
That's pretty much my main point, this one is more of a side-note and pertains to how this upgrade system favours "competitive play", for lack of a better word.
I think this lifeform based upgrade system heavily favours competitive play because of the aforementioned risk involved. There's a big difference between researching an upgrade because someone <b>might </b>use a lifeform, and researching an upgrade because you know your teammate is evolving into that lifeform soon. Even then, if you are in a pub game and someone has explicitly told you he is going to evolve into lifeform x and requires upgrade y, the direct value of that upgrade is related to how good said player is. How well is he going to use the upgrade, and how long will he survive in order to make use of the upgrade? These are things you cannot possibly know in random public play, but things which must be known if you are to accurately estimate the risks and payoffs involved with choosing an upgrade. And that, after all, is the fundamental basis for any real time strategy game. Without that its just clicking buttons and waiting for timers.
Furthermore, there is this interesting case of lack of "synergy" between upgrades from different classes. That isn't to say a fade with blink and a lerk with spikes will ruin each others mojo, not at all. But think of it this way: the "value" of an upgrade can in most cases be directly attributed to the number of people using it. If you upgrade spikes, and your team has one lerk, the upgrade could be said to be worth x. However, if you have 5 lerks, the upgrade could then be said to be worth 5x. Thats obviously not an exact science or anything, but you get the point. Now this is the problem. Almost always the alien commander must take multiple lifeform upgrades. For example, my first move is to go leap, then blink, then spikes. However, it can be argued that each upgrade for a different lifeform detriments the value of the other upgrades. This is because the more lerks I have, the fewer skulks I have, which means increasing the value of spikes decreases the value of leap. And every fade I have massively decreases the number of lerks, as a fade costs almost two lerks.
Now that's all fine and well, I can't definitively prove that the system I just described is a "bad one". However, it is my theory that instead of the strength of the alien team (pseudo) linearly increasing as more resource are spent on upgrades, it is almost kept constant due to this fluctuation in the contribution of each upgrade. It is my opinion that (although it may sound boring) alien lifeform upgrades need to be amalgamated into a single upgrade which benefits all lifeforms, pretty much mimicking the effect a new hive used to have. This way the contribution of the upgrade can't fluctuate, and the risk tradeoff is kept constant, and much more manageable for public and competitive play alike.
Comments
In an ideal world something better could have been thought up. Maybe prices varying depending on what categories and types of upgrades are evolved and which tech path is chosen. Or something. Maybe have synergies or bonus effects where an upgrade gives small bonus properties to other lifeforms/abilities (loosely, in the style of D3 runes).
But now we're in RPG tech-tree territory, which needs A LOT of work and thought.
The reason we've come to this current model is so that a second hive wouldn't be "make or break". The main objective is not to buy individual upgrades, but to not have all of them be activated with a 2:nd hive up (KABOOM).
Try thinking up something that both satisfies your argument and that condition, it's not trivial.
You can get flamethrowers, but if only 1 guy buys one and then immediately dies the research was pretty useless. This rarely ends up being the case however. This is further offset by the cheaper costs for marines to buy a weapon compared to alien life forms. Add in further the fact that a marine can pick up a dropped weapon from another player and it's even more apparent that there is a difference.
Honestly though, other than making the life forms cost a bit less (or increasing the amount of PRES earned) I probably wouldn't change it much myself. Generally the higher life forms have a pretty good chance of killing a minimum of 1 marine assuming the alien isn't playing completely suicidal. Fades practically have to try to get killed most of the time (even more so if they have adrenaline and there's no flamethrower around). The extra mobility of most of the alien life forms means that careful play leads to an exceptionally long lifespan so buffing them up too much is a bit silly.
In short, bad players are bad and will die. The research is unlikely to be wasted if you research the core abilities first (leap, blink). The rest are done on a situational basis, or once you have so much TRES that there's no point not to get them.
Try thinking up something that both satisfies your argument and that condition, it's not trivial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One way which I suggested in the past is to have iterative improvements, rather than all out upgrades, except then it was a suggestion for things like carapace and regeneration. You can basically compare it to level 1, 2 and 3 of marine guns or armour. The way it currently works is essentially like going from level 0 to level 3 in one jump, but never going any further.
My suggestions involved multiple levels of carapace (similar to the 3 levels in NS1, but in this case the upgrade wouldn't be at maximum potential in 90% of cases). It also wouldn't be limited to just 3 levels of improvement, but several. It could potentially be 20 minutes into the game and the commander could still be making more upgrades to carapace. At the time it was a suggestion to counteract strategic monotony, and also to end stalemates. If (for example) carapace and regeneration had 10 levels, instead of just one, it would really be a case of choosing to spread it out evenly, supporting all players equally, or to try and specialise in one. It would also prevent stalemates by eventually having upgrades get to a (very costly) point where marines simply could not hold out any longer.
it could apply to lifeform upgrades as well, making them initially cheap, but relatively weak, and progressively improve them. However its not a very elegant solution, and is difficult to package in a usable, intuitive manner.
This is the part where I think you've got it "wrong". I agree it's not working that way but I think it was not designed to anyway. As in, I don't believe the ability unlocks were introduced with that tradeoff structure in mind, not for their cost nor their time to complete. I believe the ability unlocks were introduced to <u>vary and stagger</u> the alien's combat effectiveness. The way I understand it, it goes back to when RFK was removed and a new problem emerged where after a certain time every alien hit a magic pRes number to evolve fade (or whatever lifeform was op for that build, onos etc). The sudden arrival of a number of fully capable fades on the battlefield often (in my experience) resulted in a few <i>decisive</i> battles. Which team won those battles is not the point here, it was the fact that the game took a clear direction shortly after that event.
In theory that problem was "fixed" by stopping the accrual of pRes while you're dead. In practice, deaths averaged out and there was still a wave of fades around the same time anyway imo. It's hard to be certain about cause and effect because so many changes were being made around this time. However, I am certain (both theoretically and practically) that ability unlocks has <i>completely</i> resolved this problem*.
[smallprint]*in pub games[/smallprint].
But I'll bet the problem has been exemplified in comp games (speculating though because I haven't seen many lately). The time criticality of comp games is just not found in pub games. Pub game mentality is more like <i>Eventually everything will be unlocked, so I'll just wait</i> whereas I'd expect comp games to exploit ability unlocks to the maximum. <i>Oh we only have blink, not spikes or bile? ok full team of fades thx.</i> Of course, I'm exaggerating but it does illustrate the point.
Personally I found the ability unlocks one of the most frustrating and game altering things to happen to aliens. The classic example is when I'd evolve to fade long before the kham was ready to research blink, and I'd often die while blink was being researched. Unlike all my NS1 experiences, my individual abilities as a fade were suddenly tied to and limited by the whim and abilities of the kham. A big loss of individually which alien players had erstwhile enjoyed, and another example of the core asymmetry imo. Anyway, shadow-step now undermines the need for blink.
Lastly, keep in mind there has been a protracted back-and-forth between tying lifeforms or ability unlocks to additional hives going right back to NS1. It's a complicated problem, but at least there's innovation going on with the ability unlocks.
So I guess in summary, ability unlocks has "worked" but it's come at a cost and I'm waiting to see how it pans out in competitive games.
If there's any balance in the costs (and that's a big IF*) then it's probably a reflection on the ease with which aliens can get res. I'd say that's mostly due ot the mobility advantage aliens have, but also because of the grow vs build models. I think bigger maps expose this underlying problem. Some builds ago when we used to play mineshaft, I came to the conclusion that if a map had 99 res points, marines would get 2-4 and aliens would get <i>the rest</i>. At least until PG/JP, but the game was usually decided by then.
*Simply because there actually hasn't been much time to refine the ability unlock model yet.
Upgrades for the default-lifeform are simply a complete other thing.
I would love to see Leap get its own upgrade building. A huge cost-increase in comparison to blink and spikes and a fixed (and long!) research time.
An upgrade for the default lifeform will always be superior over the other specific upgrades. It won't and shouldn't compete with the other upgrades.
Go on...
Upgrades for the default-lifeform are simply a complete other thing.
I would love to see Leap get its own upgrade building. A huge cost-increase in comparison to blink and spikes and a fixed (and long!) research time.
An upgrade for the default lifeform will always be superior over the other specific upgrades. It won't and shouldn't compete with the other upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more upgrade buildings, the things are too easy to snipe. Leap is also just too valuable of an upgrade to be in a weak little structure, you'd have annoying rambos sniping it every game.
Alien evolutions are not tied to structures. The com can drop what ever structure, but only 1 type per hive.
Just like lifeforms cost res, each evolutions cost different res. The best like carapace would cost more than celerity. Celerity would cost more than silence etc..
There are different levels of evolutions depending on hives. Ex.: 2 hives - 2 levels of carapace, 2 levels of celerity, etc. available at additional costs. 3 hives - 3 level shade - total invisibility, 3 level carapace - max armor.
Res is refunded if the player wants to switch lifeforms or evelotions at any time. It is risky, because if a player dies he loses all the res he has spent.
Advantages:
No more player raging "com why didn't your get cara first!".
More tactics - mix and match any evolution possible.
Com not worrying about losing an upgrade structure and hiding it in the back of the base.
Balances out evolutions with res cost.
Lets players spend their res more often instead of saving for only fade or onos.
Alien evolutions are not tied to structures. The com can drop what ever structure, but only 1 type per hive.
Just like lifeforms cost res, each evolutions cost different res. The best like carapace would cost more than celerity. Celerity would cost more than silence etc..
There are different levels of evolutions depending on hives. Ex.: 2 hives - 2 levels of carapace, 2 levels of celerity, etc. available at additional costs. 3 hives - 3 level shade - total invisibility, 3 level carapace - max armor.
Res is refunded if the player wants to switch lifeforms or evelotions at any time. It is risky, because if a player dies he loses all the res he has spent.
Advantages:
No more player raging "com why didn't your get cara first!".
More tactics - mix and match any evolution possible.
Com not worrying about losing an upgrade structure and hiding it in the back of the base.
Balances out evolutions with res cost.
Lets players spend their res more often instead of saving for only fade or onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only problem is that this makes it very hard (if not impossible) to save for fade or onos which are pretty much required for mid-late game. If res is required for every single mutation, what happens if the alien runs out? They are stuck there with no upgrades against marines with (at the very least) weapon and armor upgrades that are permanent. Not to mention, tacking on extra costs to a lifeform that costs 75 pres and is countered by a 10 pres upgrade is just dumb ><.
Not to mention that it is a bit late in the game for a complete re-haul of the alien tech tree...