<!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Dec 21 2002, 12:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart+ @ Dec 21 2002, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for balance can make or break a game, anyone play Diablo 2 Expansion? Anyone seen how uber-powerful Amazons are then other classes, anyone see how worthless necromancers are? Why does this game last so long?
Hozart<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason is greed. People want to collect wealth and be more powerful. But you can't really compare RPG and FPS games since they are so different.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Dec 20 2002, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Dec 20 2002, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does there have to be something that will kill NS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Coz people like to spell gloom and doom. Old christian morals: if it's good it is sin and will be destroyed by the wrath of god. We just can't accept NS at face value. The sum of sins is constant, so when NS is clearly superior in all departments, there must be some EXTERIOR force just waiting to topple it over <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Dec 20 2002, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Dec 20 2002, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Dec 20 2002, 02:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Dec 20 2002, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does there have to be something that will kill NS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, every game has its Achilles heel.
-Siege cannons that can hit two hives from one location -Exploits like those being addressed (drawview, commandmode, etc)
The above is only an example but I think the point is made. Balance can make or break a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well thought out post. It is the reason that I kept playing starcraft for nigh on two years after it released. Balance - a game was never decided in advance. I agree that the most urgent balancing need in NS is siege guns - they should NEVER be able to cover two hives, very unfair to the aliens. But that's a map issue. Easier to fix than many other problems, or harder?
Oh I agree that the issue with Siege can be a map issue, but if Siege is being tweaked, we can't expect maps to be reworked for every patch. It's probably better to try and work within the maps we have now, or rework all the maps now before more get made.
My thoughts on map 'issues':
Bast: -Prevent siege of hive area from spawn -Move one of Atmospheric Porcessing dual resource nozzles to Engine Corridor -Move entire Engine Room Hive/Engine Corridor over to right and connect to Port Airlock -Change access to Docking Hydralics from vent above Aft Starboard Corridor so door is shut and needs to be welded open
Caged: -Add resource nodes in sewer & generator hives
Eclipse: -Move Triad resource node to Primary Generator Monitors area
Hera: -Move one of Holoroom dual resource nozzles and put it in processing -Prevent siege of two hives from east of processing -Add resource nodes in Data Core and Archiving hives
Nancy: -Enlarge the marine spawn/Bridge area (perhaps just make it longer) -Eliminate Port Airlock (since map was changed and it became a dead end)
Nothing: -Eliminate Ventilation chamber resource node -Move node at Cargo Bay/Viaduct vent exit to Viaduct access east
Tanish: -Move one resource node in Reactor room to Exterior Access Paths
As you can see, all of my concerns are mainly balance issues. I also don't think there should be dual resource nodes on any maps since they are far too important and cause early imbalance.
However, with map issues fixed there still needed to be balance changes made. I can't think of any map change that would affect some of the balance issues we have now. (like phase gates)
I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Christmas update has in store.
I cant wait for Kharaa Vs Kharaa, It will be so cool that i might listen to VANILLA ICE!!!!!! ICE ICE BABY!!!!!
Seriously AvA is going to be fun. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS will die very very soon, one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooooh . . . how scary and prophetic sounding!
Do me a favor-- can you put a flashlight under your chin and repeat that?
if I had remembered to bookmark the post with the website about playing to win, I'd give that right now as an example. It's not that the game isn't balanced, it's that the counters haven't been found yet to counter a good tactic, or they're not being employed. *shrug*
I like playing to win, it's fun for me, but what I really love is eating an entire 4 marine squad and take about 20 damage because they're all busy shooting each other <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it's fine, and after the exploiter/cheaters (I wish I could try that out, but that's one of those "I wear women's underwear at home" kinda feelings) can't use their silly tricks to annoy everyone, the game will be fine again. I can't wait to see what changes NS 1.04 will offer! Maybe it will cause more new strats to be tried in pub servers!
I don't see how we really can be so serious about balance right now considering how long ANY of you have played this game. Give the game a good 6 month to a year run and then make some major balances. There hasn't been anything I couldn't stop in this game so I am VERY skeptical of any balance changes proposed/suggested/etc.
This isn't like an RTS were unit performance is static. ::hint::
<!--QuoteBegin--BathroomMonkey+Dec 21 2002, 04:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Dec 21 2002, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS will die very very soon, one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooooh . . . how scary and prophetic sounding!
Do me a favor-- can you put a flashlight under your chin and repeat that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "NS will die very very soon, one way or another."
Scary.... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> The end is soon to come... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It wasn't balance, at least in my mind. Much like CS, the recent patches completely altered the gameplay, making it more realistic in most respects. It lost virtually all of its charm when it completely lost its old style.
Half-Life does NOT need any more semi, but not quite, realistic war mods. There are already like 10 of them.
This is my opinion. I believe the two sides should be totally different. The only thing that bridges the gap between aliens and marines is the <b>acid rocket.</b> People simply aren't used to getting down an dirty with claws, so they resort to what the know how to use: a ranged weapon, basically a rocket launcher. This is a real shame, because fades eschew the 80-dmg claws and teleport they've been endowed with for the simple, easy-to-use rocket launcher.
I was pretty surprised there was an "acid rocket" at all. IMO, it should be changed to a "acid spurt" that just shoots a spray of acid with short range (almost like a flamethrower, actually). Aliens should be the king of CQB, and so much so that they don't have as effective ranged attacks. Down with acid rocket! Long live Blink!
I would definitely use the claws more if I could blink better. I am constantly getting stuck in things or just flapping my claws in the air and getting killed.
I didn't start this thread to find what would kill NS. I started it because I was tired of all the "Change this or you will kill the mod" posts and the people that cry for things to be exactly the same (we need a siege Chamber because aliens have no siege). I think that this is the most kick **obscenity** mod I have played and hope it grows to smother CS.
Okay... final straw. I refuse to play NS until the model exploit is fixed. The DEV TEAM needs to read this. The bug has been spread and almost everybody knows it. Granted, 90% of the people who know how to use the but won't use it because they want to play legit but, the other 10% will just do it for fun and basically destroy the game. I've already uninstalled the game. It's not worth my time to play a game where people can easily expolit something and totally destory the other people's fun.
It sickens me that some people can do that and actually get pleasure from.
The bug is when aliens can morph into Marines and use their weapons and run about 3x as fast.
So, Morrik, let me get this straight. Even though Flayra has said he's already fixed this, even though there's a patch expected in the next little while that will fix this, even though every game has had big problmes with a variety of cheats at one time or another, even though, according to your own words 90% of the people don't use the cheat, you still feel it nescessary to uninstall Ns from your system?
And tell us that 1 exploit, an exploit that has already been fixed, will surely kill NS.
Charming.
It's like disowning your friends and burning their house down because some annoying drunk guy happened to show up at their party and ruined your evening.
Comments
Hozart<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason is greed. People want to collect wealth and be more powerful. But you can't really compare RPG and FPS games since they are so different.
Coz people like to spell gloom and doom. Old christian morals: if it's good it is sin and will be destroyed by the wrath of god. We just can't accept NS at face value. The sum of sins is constant, so when NS is clearly superior in all departments, there must be some EXTERIOR force just waiting to topple it over <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flayra, every game has its Achilles heel.
-Siege cannons that can hit two hives from one location
-Exploits like those being addressed (drawview, commandmode, etc)
The above is only an example but I think the point is made. Balance can make or break a game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well thought out post. It is the reason that I kept playing starcraft for nigh on two years after it released. Balance - a game was never decided in advance. I agree that the most urgent balancing need in NS is siege guns - they should NEVER be able to cover two hives, very unfair to the aliens. But that's a map issue. Easier to fix than many other problems, or harder?
Which maps are unfair do you think?
My thoughts on map 'issues':
Bast:
-Prevent siege of hive area from spawn
-Move one of Atmospheric Porcessing dual resource nozzles to Engine Corridor
-Move entire Engine Room Hive/Engine Corridor over to right and connect to Port Airlock
-Change access to Docking Hydralics from vent above Aft Starboard Corridor so door is shut and needs to be welded open
Caged:
-Add resource nodes in sewer & generator hives
Eclipse:
-Move Triad resource node to Primary Generator Monitors area
Hera:
-Move one of Holoroom dual resource nozzles and put it in processing
-Prevent siege of two hives from east of processing
-Add resource nodes in Data Core and Archiving hives
Nancy:
-Enlarge the marine spawn/Bridge area (perhaps just make it longer)
-Eliminate Port Airlock (since map was changed and it became a dead end)
Nothing:
-Eliminate Ventilation chamber resource node
-Move node at Cargo Bay/Viaduct vent exit to Viaduct access east
Tanish:
-Move one resource node in Reactor room to Exterior Access Paths
As you can see, all of my concerns are mainly balance issues. I also don't think there should be dual resource nodes on any maps since they are far too important and cause early imbalance.
However, with map issues fixed there still needed to be balance changes made. I can't think of any map change that would affect some of the balance issues we have now. (like phase gates)
I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Christmas update has in store.
Regards,
Savant
Regards,
Savant
It's happened to so many other great MODs
Seriously AvA is going to be fun. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ooooh . . . how scary and prophetic sounding!
Do me a favor-- can you put a flashlight under your chin and repeat that?
I like playing to win, it's fun for me, but what I really love is eating an entire 4 marine squad and take about 20 damage because they're all busy shooting each other <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think it's fine, and after the exploiter/cheaters (I wish I could try that out, but that's one of those "I wear women's underwear at home" kinda feelings) can't use their silly tricks to annoy everyone, the game will be fine again. I can't wait to see what changes NS 1.04 will offer! Maybe it will cause more new strats to be tried in pub servers!
This isn't like an RTS were unit performance is static. ::hint::
Ooooh . . . how scary and prophetic sounding!
Do me a favor-- can you put a flashlight under your chin and repeat that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"NS will die very very soon, one way or another."
lol <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The end is soon to come... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It wasn't balance, at least in my mind. Much like CS, the recent patches completely altered the gameplay, making it more realistic in most respects. It lost virtually all of its charm when it completely lost its old style.
Half-Life does NOT need any more semi, but not quite, realistic war mods. There are already like 10 of them.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I was pretty surprised there was an "acid rocket" at all. IMO, it should be changed to a "acid spurt" that just shoots a spray of acid with short range (almost like a flamethrower, actually). Aliens should be the king of CQB, and so much so that they don't have as effective ranged attacks. Down with acid rocket! Long live Blink!
I didn't start this thread to find what would kill NS. I started it because I was tired of all the "Change this or you will kill the mod" posts and the people that cry for things to be exactly the same (we need a siege Chamber because aliens have no siege). I think that this is the most kick **obscenity** mod I have played and hope it grows to smother CS.
It sickens me that some people can do that and actually get pleasure from.
The bug is when aliens can morph into Marines and use their weapons and run about 3x as fast.
This is what will destroy NS.
And tell us that 1 exploit, an exploit that has already been fixed, will surely kill NS.
Charming.
It's like disowning your friends and burning their house down because some annoying drunk guy happened to show up at their party and ruined your evening.