Alien Structure / Upgrade Costs
eh?
Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
So the hive cost 40 tres at the moment and is the most critical factor in determining whether aliens win.
Upgrades cost 20 tres for the initial hive evolution, plus the 15 tres structure cost and the 10-15 tres upgrade research. This means it cost 10 more tres to get carapace than it does to get another hive.
This forces aliens to always drop a second hive first because it is cheaper and confers an infinitely greater advantage in both map control and obviously leap and other abilities.
I wanted to hear some people's potential solutions to this. Mine so far is to remove crag, shade, shift hive evolution costs and increase the cost of the hives to compensate. That way it is viable to get upgrades reasonably early in the game before a hive, but initial alien tres may need to be lowered in order to prevent getting instant carapace every game.
Well then again thats only an issue because carapace is currently imbalanced, but thats another topic.
Upgrades cost 20 tres for the initial hive evolution, plus the 15 tres structure cost and the 10-15 tres upgrade research. This means it cost 10 more tres to get carapace than it does to get another hive.
This forces aliens to always drop a second hive first because it is cheaper and confers an infinitely greater advantage in both map control and obviously leap and other abilities.
I wanted to hear some people's potential solutions to this. Mine so far is to remove crag, shade, shift hive evolution costs and increase the cost of the hives to compensate. That way it is viable to get upgrades reasonably early in the game before a hive, but initial alien tres may need to be lowered in order to prevent getting instant carapace every game.
Well then again thats only an issue because carapace is currently imbalanced, but thats another topic.
Comments
I only upgrade to crag hive and get carapace if my team is failing to secure the second hive room.
Would be interested to see how it plays out with 60 res hives, or even the mammoth 80 res hives we played around with a bit on NS2b mod. Hives wouldn't be such a joke to put down then and the early game would be extended- also forcing aliens to put a lot more thought, teamwork, and defenses into getting that hive up instead of "Oh well, I can drop another one because they're so cheap".
Upgrades cost 20 tres for the initial hive evolution, plus the 15 tres structure cost and the 10-15 tres upgrade research. This means it cost 10 more tres to get carapace than it does to get another hive.
This forces aliens to always drop a second hive first because it is cheaper and confers an infinitely greater advantage in both map control and obviously leap and other abilities.
I wanted to hear some people's potential solutions to this. Mine so far is to remove crag, shade, shift hive evolution costs and increase the cost of the hives to compensate. That way it is viable to get upgrades reasonably early in the game before a hive, but initial alien tres may need to be lowered in order to prevent getting instant carapace every game.
Well then again thats only an issue because carapace is currently imbalanced, but thats another topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a beautiful avatar you've got there.
I also think that would be good. I'd like to see upgrades taken before second hives, but right now it's just too expensive. You're better off trying to hold till second hive is up with hydras than trying to get upgrades to give your skulks staying power against good shooters.
It is a problem of cheap Leap. Leap is such a powerful upgrade it has to made distinct to the other upgrades. Spikes only benefit the few lerks in your team. Blink only the few fades. But Leap! Man! Leap benefits every new spawning alien. It benefits the class, that is free! The class that is played the most time.
Leap needs to be way more costly. Or even needs an own upgrade building. Or increase the research time by x3 or x4 so the hive can't research anything else for a while.
Second hive is only the first choice because leap is so extremely important. Make leap pricey enough so it hinders other upgrades (in time or res). I think this is the only way to get rid of the fact that it is always the first choice.
Edit: Only other solution I can think of would be some kind of trade off. Researching leap? Ok, but every other upgrade after you got leap will take now longer to research. But this is very unintuitive. Making skulks slower or weaker when leap is researched isn't also a good solution...
Yes with the current system. But I have to say the current system is not working so well. Having to research abilities doesn't really offer additional choices. Basically you need to follow your team composition, if you have or plan to have a lot of fades you research blink. If you have lerks or want to do a lerk rush you research spikes. In general you research leap first because you have a lot of skulks. Lerks and gorges usually get stuck with no abilities for a while, increasing the cost or the research time would make it even worse.
The real strategic choice is which lifeforms players evolve to, abilities just follows.
Also Lerk- or Fade-rush isn't the normal tactic. You want to have both life forms in your team.
The kham than decides which life form gets stronger first. I don't think it's an option without decisions. Or just follows your players. The only problem with this system is Leap.
IMHO the whole Skulk-Upgrades should be handled completely different from the other ability-upgrades. They are natural to distinct and preferred over any other ability-upgrade.
Would be interested to see how it plays out with 60 res hives, or even the mammoth 80 res hives we played around with a bit on NS2b mod. Hives wouldn't be such a joke to put down then and the early game would be extended- also forcing aliens to put a lot more thought, teamwork, and defenses into getting that hive up instead of "Oh well, I can drop<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! You nailed it. Exactly what I have to say on the subject.
Theyre cheap, give a lot, and build so fast.. two gorges can get 2nd hive up in under 1:20.. Marines will barely have 3 extractors at this point, if skulks failed to pressure.
I'd be down for ~60 tres and ~%30 more build time.
Theyre cheap, give a lot, and build so fast.. two gorges can get 2nd hive up in under 1:20.. Marines will barely have 3 extractors at this point, if skulks failed to pressure.
I'd be down for ~60 tres and ~%30 more build time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if you nuked marine building spam aswell. They pop structures out all the time, and no one whines.
Speaking of structure spam though - maybe that is the imbalance. Currently marines drop loads of buildings to create a base. Aliens tend to try to survive with nothing but a hive for as long as possible - more res for upgrades. Maybe there needs to be more emphasis on additional structures.
Crags are pretty much useless now that gorges heal structures so well, and without umbra on the crag its of little consequence. Shade is the only essential structure, then a costly whip spam. Shifts need to get more of a purpose in the hive rooms.
Because that's too logical.
Instead, let's just think of ways to gimp aliens even further because we're bad at marines.
OPs suggestion sounds really good, but I also would like to see more crags/shades/shifts being build instead of hives.
I think longer hive build time could be a great help or a more expensive hive. Right now it's pretty easy to know marines spawned in cafe and you are in tram depart... it's almost a no brainer to drop a hive in generator pretty much right off the bat due to how far the marines have to go to get to it. Once you get that 2nd hive it's pretty much GG unless your team is horribly bad.
Now that little strat doesn't require much game knowledge or intelligence and it certainly requires minimal teamwork and almost no skill to do. Yet it's incredibly effective. I don't understand why the aliens have to be so easymode while the marines are forced to have PHD's to win a game xD
Please note my obvious exaggeration haters.
EDIT: On the starting TRES subject...
Since this game is supposedly based on tradeoffs and asymmetry then why are both teams starting with the same TRES? Aliens can get by with pretty much 0 upgrades for a very long time... marines on the other hand cannot. Asymmetric or imbalance? You be the judge.
The alien comm can waste res left and right on stupid expansions, badly placed whips, and all kinds of other nonsense and still get away with it. If you see the marine commander drop a robotics factory as his first tech the marines are likely to lose. With this idea in mind.. why are we giving leniency to the alien commander and demanding precision out of the marine commander... all the while giving them both the same bank account? Sounds stupid to me.
Well to be fair, the marines are likely to lose nomatter what...