2nd Hive Asap
tleng
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9503Members
Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">how to get 2nd hive quickly</div> First of all, the alien team should only have 1 gorge. That's the most important part.
Next, the gorge builds only resource towers. I usually build 4 rts, but 3 should work even though I think it's faster with 4. After the 4th RT, wait for 80rp and throw up your hive. No defense or offense chambers until the 2nd hive has started building.
The skulks have to defend the RTs you've already built, and they HAVE to protect the new hive coming online. As the gorge, once you've started the 2nd hive then you can start protecting the 2nd hive with 2 offense chambers at a time. Throw those up at chokepoints for both hives with 2 defence chambers behind them. This will slow down any solo marines.
Remember, always try to build a 1:1 ratio of offense to defence chambers. With this build order, I've been accused of using the resource exploit because I get the 2nd hive up so quickly.
BTW the resource exploit still works even in 1.03. Just press F4 and come back, and all your resources go to the gorge.
Next, the gorge builds only resource towers. I usually build 4 rts, but 3 should work even though I think it's faster with 4. After the 4th RT, wait for 80rp and throw up your hive. No defense or offense chambers until the 2nd hive has started building.
The skulks have to defend the RTs you've already built, and they HAVE to protect the new hive coming online. As the gorge, once you've started the 2nd hive then you can start protecting the 2nd hive with 2 offense chambers at a time. Throw those up at chokepoints for both hives with 2 defence chambers behind them. This will slow down any solo marines.
Remember, always try to build a 1:1 ratio of offense to defence chambers. With this build order, I've been accused of using the resource exploit because I get the 2nd hive up so quickly.
BTW the resource exploit still works even in 1.03. Just press F4 and come back, and all your resources go to the gorge.
Comments
Oh, and it kills me to see gorges that decide to pick the resource nodes that are near the marines starting base. I can't even remember how many times I have seen a gorge try and take the node right outside the marine base on ns_nancy as their first or second node. You are just going to lose that node quickly, a total waste of 22 resources. Get the nodes that the marines have to fight to get to!
if u got good skuls , u can parasit every marine , leaving the base so the marines are really stressed <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
when building 2nd hive , another gore is needed for taking marine respoints and healing fades
Next, the gorge builds only resource towers. I usually build 4 rts, but 3 should work even though I think it's faster with 4. After the 4th RT, wait for 80rp and throw up your hive. No defense or offense chambers until the 2nd hive has started building.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much the standard way. Unfortunately, average marines with an agressive commander will cut through unupgraded skulks without much trouble, and will either siege you before the second hive comes up, or even lock down two hives before you have started building it.
Putting the whole load of the early game defense on your skulks is risky.
I've found that an early defense chamber to give the skulks 50% more life (depending on how things look, either after the second or third res tower), as well as building defenses at strategic chokepoints after the third res tower but before I start to build the 2nd hive, is a safer way. As long as your team doesn't waste resources going Lerk, it won't delay the 2nd hive more than about two minutes.
you should build according to how each game is going at that time
trying to build res nodes with no defence when the marines are chomping through your skulls is stupid as is building def/off towers at hive or other locations when your skulls are keeping the marines safe already
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though it works, the only time it is usefull is when you need resources fast, because when the skulks have full resources all the resources go to the groge and if a skulk f4's then the resources will be going to the skulk and the gorge....
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
the number of gorges may go up to 2 if you have plenty of res towers.
Skilled marines cant stop skilled kharaa from getting the second hive. The game is won or lost on the battle to siege/save the second hive, with fade/umbra vs hmg/ha/gl/jetpacked marines.
That's NS on a high level of play.
Yeah, one question:What are you smoking?
The "one gorge is the key to success" myth is the thing that gets the aliens screwed over more often than anything. The real key to winning is <b>2</b> gorges. One gorge's job is to take a small(key word) cadre of skulks around from rec. point to rec point building rec towers and expanding defense, while the other builds a minimal defense at the closest hive, and plops himself down until the resource counter says 80. Works every time, unless, of course, you happen to suck.
Yeah, one question:What are you smoking?
The "one gorge is the key to success" myth is the thing that gets the aliens screwed over more often than anything. The real key to winning is <b>2</b> gorges. One gorge's job is to take a small(key word) cadre of skulks around from rec. point to rec point building rec towers and expanding defense, while the other builds a minimal defense at the closest hive, and plops himself down until the resource counter says 80. Works every time, unless, of course, you happen to suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
see this guy and other guys like him are why kharaa loses all the time. you are supposed to have one gorge and his only goal is to get the second hive up ASAP so the skulks can become fades ASAP. all those chamber defenses gorges make early are a FADE-DELAYING-WASTE-OF-TIME! chamber defense is not needed in the early game if you have good skulks that communicate and work as a team.
Yeah, one question:What are you smoking?
The "one gorge is the key to success" myth is the thing that gets the aliens screwed over more often than anything. The real key to winning is <b>2</b> gorges. One gorge's job is to take a small(key word) cadre of skulks around from rec. point to rec point building rec towers and expanding defense, while the other builds a minimal defense at the closest hive, and plops himself down until the resource counter says 80. Works every time, unless, of course, you happen to suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just played 2 games where they told to have only 1 gorge, seeing I never tried this I decided too, everytime we tried we failed, how are you gonna secure a hive and save up for one at the same time? you can't, either that or you rely too mouch on skulks but most end up getting killed, well the ones I played ith atleast, so for now I believe 2 gorges is best.
The reason for going two gorges early is to get the income up faster. Thus, it is IMPERATIVE that the gorges build at least one, preferably two resource towers each before one of them starts to save up for hive.
Two gorges only work if you have at least 6-7 players - any smaller than that, and the share splitting and loss of a skulk becomes too bothersome.
In an 8-player game, one gorge will be getting 3/10 or 30% of the resources. With two gorges, they will be getting 3/12 or 25% of the resources each.
At start, the resources in an 8-player game is 10 + 10 * 8 * 0.23 * num_nodes resources per minute, or about 10 + 20/node a minute. So a single gorge will get 10 res/min, while two gorges will get 7.75 res/min. Saving up for first res node takes a single gorge 2.2 minutes while two gorges can build two after 2.9 minutes.
Single gorge:
2.2 min: builds res tower, 0 res @ 10/min
2.7 min: res tower built, 5 res @16/min
3.8 min: builds res tower, 0 res@16/min
4.2 min: rew tower built, 8 res @ 23/min (total income 70 res/min)
Two gorges:
2.9 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@7.5/min
3.4 min: 2 res tower built, 4 res@18/min
4.4 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@18/min
4.9 min: 2 res towers built, 9 res@27/min (total income 110 res/min)
As can be seen, two gorges can get a higher total income earlier. At this point, the income for the gorges is enough to either build defenses, if the marines are good, or saving up for 2nd hive if the marines are not.
So, yea .. two gorges are better. Unfortunately, only if you have TWO good gorges - if you only have one good gorge and one that sucks, you are better of with one gorge.
You wont be saying that when 2 or 3 skilled marines with shotguns blow through any skulks you have defending your hive and then take that hive down. Or even if that doesn't happen, and you get your precious fades early in the game, by that time the marines are expected to have a few upgrades, correct? Well then they can get both the hives by exploiting the gap in your defenses that not defending the hive early gets you (because I've noticed that if gorges don't build defenses early, a lot of the time they forget to) and if the marines have bullet upgrades, then they're gonna take your first hive down, then you're back where you started. That is, of course, considering that you have skilled marines on the other team.
After you get the hive started, however, 2 gorges is very nice. One can be defensive, and build roadblocks within Kharaa territory (securing the hive sites first) while the other goes offensive, and acts both as a mobile source of healing and a nice way to block off the marines once you kill the phase gate. Time left alone in a marine base is critical, and even allowing a few minutes by throwing down 2 OC's and 2 DC's in the path of the marines can make a game.
Or, when one of the gorges gets bored, he can always go build a wall outside the marine spawn, leaving the other to handle hive operations <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, one question:What are you smoking?
The "one gorge is the key to success" myth is the thing that gets the aliens screwed over more often than anything. The real key to winning is <b>2</b> gorges. One gorge's job is to take a small(key word) cadre of skulks around from rec. point to rec point building rec towers and expanding defense, while the other builds a minimal defense at the closest hive, and plops himself down until the resource counter says 80. Works every time, unless, of course, you happen to suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yesterday I played in a game where we followed a one gorge strategy, by the time the second hive had gone up and I had gestated into a fade, being the first person to do so, there were already three marines outside our second hive moments away from dropping a phase gate and the third hive had alreay been secured. The only reason we went on to win that game was because I attacked instantly which tied them up for long enough that a second fade could come support me and we managed to kill them, even then it was an extremely close thing as we only had a single move chamber and I came close to dying twice due my inability to blink away to safety.
Recently I haven't seen a single two gorge strategy go down very well, victories by this method always happen because two or three players are organised enough to take down one of the hives either by good use of a Lerk to take down a tf or phase, or by badly placed turrets enabling them to be chomped safely. Using this technique almost certainly gurantee's victory in my opinion since the presence of offence chambers all over the map stops the humans from taking back the hive with any sort of effectiveness.
A two gorge strategy will not work against a phase gate rush since the marines will reinforce far too quickly, especially in high player games where the death of a squad of Kharaa really harms the team since it takes a long time for them to reincarnate, once a squad of Kharaa dies players tend to charge in in ones and twos to get mown down by the marines providing covering fire and if you wait for everyone to come back your screwed since the phase gate is now up and running as is a tf and turrets if the marine team have the points.
In short:
1 Gorge to start the game with
- Builds 2-3 res total in the safest spots near the chosen second hive & first hive
- Prompty saves for the second hive and throws it up asap.
- Starts working on hive defense as the second hive is building.
2nd Gorge evolves when the second hive is building.
- Travels with the offensive teams and caps res nodes.
- Sets up "healing stations" for the offensive players.
The only time this strategy lost was when multiple other players decided to become gorges after I evolved and plopped down useless walls of lame next to a single res node far into our territory. With this strategy, by the time marines take the third hive, fades are evolving. The first gorge should have 1-2 skulk guards depending on the size of the team. The rest of the skulks generally make it hard for the marines to either step out of base or hold the third hive.
SKULK DEFENSE:
what it <b>ISN'T</b>: camping at the hives waiting to pounce on approaching marines.
<b>in other words: KILLING MARINES THAT ARE DIRECT THREATS TO HIVES.</b>
what is <b>IS</b>: constantly taking the battle to the marines, camping near their locations, parasiting them, COMMUNICATING THEIR POSITION TO THE REST OF THE SKULKS, and rushing them wherever they are. When the game starts ambush them when they try to leave base, then ambush them when they try to get another resource node, and then rush them again as they try to take that first hive. STAY ON THEM AT ALL TIMES. if a solo rambo goes for your hive you should know about it before he gets nearby.
<b>in other words: RECONAISSANCE, PARASITE TAGGING, <i>VOCAL COMMUNICATION</i>*, HARRASSMENT, MAP-WIDE MONITORING OF MARINE MOVEMENTS, AND FINALLY KILLING MARINES.</b>
<b><i>*people whine that its low quality, but its quick, efficient - and if people keep their comms SHORT and stay off the radio unless the info is important, it is an invaluable tool.</i></b>
======
several people here have said something to the effect that if you leave defense up to the skulks, marines will 'magically APPEAR' at one of your hives near the time the second hive is up. well that won't happen if you do skulk defense the way you are supposed to as i stated above. if your skulks are relentlessly harassing marines everytime they try to advance their front line your gorge(s) will have more than enough time to make that second hive AND he will know if he really needs to make a few DCs and OCs beforehand at one of the hives IF NECESSARY.
and thats the KEY point. early defense should not be necessary if your skulks are defending properly. but in the case that in the skulks are sucking and the marines are really good, if the skulks are at least communicating and letting the team know where the marines are and if they are a threat to hives, the gorge can use the resources to fend off a marine rush with chamber defense. BUT THATS ONLY IF NECESSARY.
some gorges make defense no matter what the situation just to be safe but when you hardly have any resources coming in and only one hive to store the excess, OCs and DCs can be VERY EXPENSIVE in terms of resources and time. on the other end of the spectrum if you have two hives and 4 resources, OCs and DCs are cheap. You can run around one hive and plop down 16 OCs and 8 DCs without stopping to gain resources. As soon as the second hive goes up, the chamber defense can be built in seconds.
here's a good quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Single gorge:
2.2 min: builds res tower, 0 res @ 10/min
2.7 min: res tower built, 5 res @16/min
3.8 min: builds res tower, 0 res@16/min
4.2 min: rew tower built, 8 res @ 23/min (total income 70 res/min)
Two gorges:
2.9 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@7.5/min
3.4 min: 2 res tower built, 4 res@18/min
4.4 min: builds 2 res towers, 0 res@18/min
4.9 min: 2 res towers built, 9 res@27/min (total income 110 res/min)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this shows how 2 gorges can be significantly more effective than one and i can't dispute this. i think it shows that both scenarios get you that hive in about the same amount of time if the gorges are doing what they are supposed to. but if one of those gorges start building a chamber defense for no reason it delays the second hive.
now once the second hive comes up it's easy for fades to back the marines up and push for the third hive or the marine start. as a marine i start to feel a little queasy when i hear acid rockets splashing nearby.
so my point is this, one gorge or two gorge, you should be only building resource chambers and the second hive. once the second hive is building, THEN AND ONLY THEN should you build chamber defense UNLESS the marines are BUILDING close to a hive and you are no where near getting the second hive up; good skulk D will give you an early warning to determine this.
so when is chamber defense necessary?
at the hive?
in a perfect world of perfect skulks you don't need chamber defense but if the marines have a few solo rushers, one or two OCs at a hive will be enough to fend him off long enough for skulk backup to assist.
at resource node outposts?
it shouldn't be necessary. if the marines take one of your resource chambers one of two things happen.
#1 they leave immeadiately afterwards.
if that happens go over there and build it back.
#2 they set up an outpost there.
in the time they spend to build that outpost you can make two more resource chambers somewhere else. and if all they do is make a resource tower with no defenses, have a skulk go over there and eat it and then build it back.
skulks should use resource nodes to monitor marine movement and swarm on marines. if the resource chamber goes down let the skulks secure the area and if they can't secure it, at least they know where to harass the marines while you build elsewhere.
The kharaa are a speading infection and you have to think of them that way. Think of them like a spilt glass of milk and the marines a small napkin. If they push you at one end, you have three other ways to go. In the early game don't worry about pushing them back, if you do, its a plus but slowing them down long enough for the gorges to get the second hive up is all thats important. Let the skulks do the pushing and the gorges solely focus on hives and resource development rather than chamber defense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so my point is this, one gorge or two gorge, you should be only building resource chambers and the second hive. once the second hive is building, THEN AND ONLY THEN should you build chamber defense UNLESS the marines are BUILDING close to a hive and you are no where near getting the second hive up; good skulk D will give you an early warning to determine this.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
According to your figures written above, the gorges will be about ready to start up a hive in around 5-6 minutes if resource capping goes well. While that is surely a decent start up for the alien economy, consider that your average-staying-together marine squad will be able to reach the hive in question within 3-4 minutes. It takes them about a minute to kill the gorge saving up for the hive. You are now back at square one. A gorge can not fight a group of marines, and in your scenario the skulks are off parasiting, talking about, and "monitoring" the marines' movements. They may be able to kill some marines, but they will never stop the marine rush 100%, the TSA just have too much of a numbers advantage.
My suggestion, while including a token harrassment skulk just to keep the marines busy, is to <i>assign most if not all of the skulks to gorge /hive bodyguard duty.</i> Basically, hardcore defense of the hive and resources. They should also move in groups.
I propose the aliens are best served digging in at one hive and letting the marines have the other. Get as many resources as you can with all due speed, but once you have staked out which hive you want, build an offensive chamber just inside each entrance to the hive. Now the single gorge saves up for the hive. Skulks wait on the ceilings to attack any marines that get too close, and if any OC's get damaged, the gorge uses heal spray on them. The gorge also heals any wounded skulks. (No need for defense chamber yet because of this)
For the cost of 14 and then another 14 res (28 total) you can delay the marines for several more minutes. It takes just over a minute to recoup your losses if you captured two res towers at the beginning. (1 halfway between the current hive and your starting one, and the second inside the second hive itself.)
Why do I say the OC's will hold the marines off so much better than skulks only?
1- They have a long range with a good powered shot, and can cover long halls outside the entrance. Sure they suck at very long range, but so do lmgs. At close range offensive chambers can be deadly to unupgraded marines.
2- Because of their high level of health, on top of being healed by the gorge, it takes so much ammo and time for marines to kill it most marines won't even bother. (Most marines I see will only attack buildings if they have HMG, Grenades, or siege cannon- they won't have those yet) Certainly it won't go down from casual fire.
3- If the marines try to jump over it or close range with it, the skulks have an easier time killing them because they are distracted, and they closed distance with you for you.
So the point is, as I told it so long windedly, you should build basic defenses at the hive you are taking because the time it buys you to save for the hive, keep it until you evolve fades (and it can take a while to get 44 res per fade), and overall have a more solid defense more than make up for the resources it takes to build them.
Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree the aliens' first objective should be to acquire the fade form ASAP.
-Leu
1. Give skulks access to carapace
2. Creates a place where skulks can get healed 3 times per tick
3. Gives you a little more wiggle room in dealing with a marine rush.
Remember, the marine rush depends on aliens being backed up to spawn. If skulks can just run behind the DCs to heal back up, the spawn rate thing isn't as crippling. Also, LMGs don't exactly belt out damage. If you can get enough cross-healing going on between the DCs and the hive, the marines may be forced to stop and build a turret farm (which gives you more time to reinforce, nail up a second hive, or just build some OCs).
Personally, I'm a fan of locking down strategic choke points before building the 2nd hive. Take eclipse, for example. If you lock down keyhole, power subjunction and west core access, you have protected two hives and four resource points. It may take longer for the second hive to come up if you spend the 120 res to put up a minimum defense(2OC, 1DC), but on the other hand, you have gained a superior defensive shell where the skulks can repair and the marines can't penetrate without giving warning, and they won't be able to get withing siege distance of any hive.
Same thing with tanith - acid processing and central access tunnels protects the storage and fusion reactor. If you start in satcom, you move acid process defenses to chem transport. If you start in waste, you need to add defense in west access. 2-3 points to defend, depending.
While 120 res sounds like a lot, it isn't really. At 90 res/minute with 4 res nodes (8v8 game), it only delays the hive by a minute and a half. IMO, well worth it.
Putting up defenses INSIDE the hives is a no-no (at least until you need to start thinking about jetpacks). That's just feeding the siege. Those first defenses are so costly that they must be put in the RIGHT places, where they will keep the marines out of whole sections of the map.
The important thing is keeping in touch with your teammates, getting as many nozzles as you safely can (they'll usually pay for themselves quickly enough, even if they die when you leave), and responding to the marines, rather than sticking to some predetermind order (but there is an ideal structure to follow).
I have never seen two gorges do better than one good one. I think it's just been that I've never seen two good gorges at the same time. I understand that a second one can be usefull (capping twice as many nozzles would be nice, but there's usually not that many to be captured in the first place, and having defense already built when the second hive is going up would be nice), but 90% of the time, I'd rather it stayed at one, assuming that one is not a fool. With a monopoly on the income, one can get the three DC's up after the second hive begins, get a couple OC's up, walk to the other hive and have enough by the time they arrive to get a few OC's and DC's there, too, and then build three movements the moment the second hive's up (depending on how many nozzles the marines let you take/keep, and how few OC's/DC's they let you get away with).
And a quick question...
Once the second hive is building, the marines usually already have the third hive. What use is the second gorge? You now have someone who's not fighting, only one of them will be able to build the third hive (if that ever comes up), one gorge can handle defenses for two hives, and then more from there, and that second gorge is costing your teammates resources, and once that second hive is up, they need it more than the gorges, as you need stronger units more than you need more structures (fades and/or lerks kill many more marines than OC's, and with only a few OC's to slow them down, even the slowest alien can arrive in time to help out). When the second hive comes up, your team should be defending what they have while the gorge soldifies your defenses with structures. Once that's done, is there really a need for ANY gorges? You just need combat potential to get the third hive, or level the marine base (or in case of real trouble, defend what you already have). If a specific instance comes up where DC's are absolutly needed, without a gorge everyone should be rich enough to go gorge and get a good start on what's needed, then use their enhanced income to go back to a combat unit.
If you started with two gorges, you aggressivly grabbed nozzles, and got that second hive up, and defended... two gorges is even more useless than before. Maybe the forumla for gorges should be 3 - # hives, rather than 1 per hive.
Once the second hive is building, the marines usually already have the third hive. What use is the second gorge? You now have someone who's not fighting ..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... man, you must never have seen a good offensive gorge playing. A gorge can take out an undefended non-siege marine outpost on his own. Rush in, drop a few OC's on the phasegate, a DC, build them up while dodging turret fire...
A minute or two later, the only thing left of the marine base is a strange constalletion of OC's and DC's.
Hell, a passing skulk said "Wow! Generator was free all this time!".
Little did he know...
Of course, once the second hive is up, gorges are crucial to a successful offensive. Fades love knowing that any marine rushing them from around the corner will run into a web. The ability to web phasegates is great as well. And of course, in any area not covered by siege, a gorge well supplied with resources just owns completly - web to slow down the marines, chambers to take over the area. A fade or two to keep the marines mind from the REAL threat, and you are all set...
A perfect alien attack team is two fades, one lerk and one gorge. Played correctly, the marines are pretty much dead meat, unless they are fighting inside siege coverage and have HA, welders and skill.
I prefer 2 gorges... One builds 2 RTs, and saves for a hive, the other builds one RT, and then 3 DCs where the two gorges are. A gorge with full carapace, backed by 3 def towers can handle pretty much anything the marines send his way, provided your carapaced skulks are doing something... If your skulks are winning the early containment game without carapace, then the marines flatly suck. Carapace is VITAL versus anyone that can aim. That is all I have to say.
Two gorges are REQUIRED because they can't receive donations anymore <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->