Team res is assigned to each team equally, and without regard for how many players each team has. Personal res is assigned for each player on a given team. What you're asking for is for each player to get access to a resource that is attributed equally to each team. This would be worse than the NS1 res pool, which turned out to be an exercise in what not to do in games with varying team sizes.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
i thought the gorge was a support class, whats with this suggestion of a skill based ability that lets him contend with marines? what kind of support class puts up their own in combat? :o
I personally am never bored with gorge. I normally start off by assisting in healing up the first harvester placed then move on to the desired location for second hive and start locking it down. I then act as a healbot for the skulks attacking the marines who attempt to attack 2nd hive location until new hive is dropped. After second hive is grown i make a hole in my clog wall and start pushing forward supporting the skulks until we can expand to the next area. When bile bomb is researched it gets even more fun
Maybe it's just the way i play gorge, but I am never bored.
I apologize for not reading this thread completely, i just wanted to get in my own gorge plea without making a new thread.
Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.
It would return the gorge to its glory without breaking the Khamm. Past these small ideas each needs a serious polish. Alien Khamm needing the most love and a <i>direction</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1958320:date=Aug 7 2012, 09:14 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 7 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I apologize for not reading this thread completely, i just wanted to get in my own gorge plea without making a new thread.
Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.
It would return the gorge to its glory without breaking the Khamm. Past these small ideas each needs a serious polish. Alien Khamm needing the most love and a <i>direction</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post wins the thread. Not griefable, makes gorge resource pool useful for gorges who want to remain gorge all game, and doesnt step on the khammanders toes.
<a href="http://youtu.be/E-MINfVtYik" target="_blank">Congratulations, Enjoy your victory tune</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1957432:date=Aug 4 2012, 11:22 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 4 2012, 11:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it would be interesting if gorges could build more structures - right now they can build hydras and clogs, and that's it. If they could also build the other standard alien structures that could be quite interesting, but I think it would definitely skew the balance of the game. I think the better solution perhaps is to create more and different structures that the gorge can build, the supplements but doesn't copy the abilities of the other upgrade structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">Check this topic out for some ideas along the lines you're talking about.</a>
As for making the Gorge buy standard structures.. it simply wouldn't work folks. The game is being designed so the entire team's res is the same no matter how big the team is -> so that gameplay can have some sort of consistency and stay fun no matter if there are more or less people.
Imagine this if you will: Khamm goes Shade hive. Drops Feign Death. All other players (possibly 15) go Gorge. Drop one Shade each at various places on the map - particularly on the path towards the second hive. All Gorges go back to Skulk. Its game over.
Imagine the same scenario with Shifts and their "Forward Egg Placement" ability - which is a 'vanilla' ability I believe. Rush Marine base and drop a Shift right outside with tons of eggs? That's the end of the game. And the same with Crags as the Skulks would have plenty of support right outside the base. Remember that if the Khamm isn't spending money on structures, he's spending the money on abilities -> this would completely break the game.
Its not fair to anyone playing as the Marines couldn't do anything, and the Kharaa would be SOO over powered that it would be like shooting at fish in a barrel. The idea is to separate what PRes and TRes allow you to do, thereby insuring a good bit of stability despite team size.
Non game breaking, something else to build, and allows for more intelligent placement on walls/roof etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge used to be able to create Mini-Cysts (weaker cysts, see Gorilla trailer). But since the change to limited free structures, Mini-Cyst was phased out because dropping new ones cause a Cyst chain to break, and infestation recedes also killing any structures the Alien Commander placed (unless he reconnects using normal Cysts).
While I agree the Gorge can use more structure variants, he'll just have to make do with what he has. Post-release will probably bring new toys to the table. That said, I would've love it if Shell/Veil/Spur were Hive-tied Gorge structures with special abilities and instead evolutions are researched on Crag/Shade/Shift Hives. After all, you lose evolution access and slots when a type of Hive goes down.
I think Gorges should have cysts back too and the ability to put them down even not connected, and keep 'em alive by healing them. Something like 1 heal spray keeps them alive for 1 min, then you have to heal them again or they start to die. That could help in creating 2 or more different fronts in defending/attacking a certain place
<!--quoteo(post=1959117:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:12 AM:name=Cico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cico @ Aug 8 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think Gorges should have cysts back too and the ability to put them down even not connected, and keep 'em alive by healing them. Something like 1 heal spray keeps them alive for 1 min, then you have to heal them again or they start to die. That could help in creating 2 or more different fronts in defending/attacking a certain place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't I would want to worry about the cysts staying alive all the time as gorge :/
In the past I also felt that gorge-minicysts were redundant with normal cyst.
The ideas I like so far: <!--quoteo(post=1957582:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:15 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 5 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe gorges should be able to buy eggs without jumping into the chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958320:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:14 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 6 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> (Personally Hydras are OK, but I'm not picky)
Gorges spending PRes to drop real cysts would be interesting too.
An overlooked ability I often see is how effective Gorges and Khammanders work together. I had a Gorge once going along helping my cysts and Extractors drop, and man did it speed things up early game.
<!--quoteo(post=1958887:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:42 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 8 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">Check this topic out for some ideas along the lines you're talking about.</a>
As for making the Gorge buy standard structures.. it simply wouldn't work folks. The game is being designed so the entire team's res is the same no matter how big the team is -> so that gameplay can have some sort of consistency and stay fun no matter if there are more or less people.
Imagine this if you will: Khamm goes Shade hive. Drops Feign Death. All other players (possibly 15) go Gorge. Drop one Shade each at various places on the map - particularly on the path towards the second hive. All Gorges go back to Skulk. Its game over.
Imagine the same scenario with Shifts and their "Forward Egg Placement" ability - which is a 'vanilla' ability I believe. Rush Marine base and drop a Shift right outside with tons of eggs? That's the end of the game. And the same with Crags as the Skulks would have plenty of support right outside the base. Remember that if the Khamm isn't spending money on structures, he's spending the money on abilities -> this would completely break the game.
Its not fair to anyone playing as the Marines couldn't do anything, and the Kharaa would be SOO over powered that it would be like shooting at fish in a barrel. The idea is to separate what PRes and TRes allow you to do, thereby insuring a good bit of stability despite team size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just silly. It wasnt game breaking in NS1 and wouldnt be in NS2. It would actually give the gorge a reason to gorge and give him more front line tools without hurting the alien Kham's role.
The whole team going gorge is a valid strategy. It is one of the few all in strategies the aliens have.
<!--quoteo(post=1959290:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just silly. It wasnt game breaking in NS1 and wouldnt be in NS2. It would actually give the gorge a reason to gorge and give him more front line tools without hurting the alien Kham's role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, let me clarify: The goal of how the Devs are progressing NS2 is to give each side a set of Team Resources, and with those TRes the Comm/Khamm must battle to the death in an RPG struggle. All other players are FPS and gain Personal Resources, with that PRes they purchase abilities which help them fight. This is not my opinion, this is how the game is set up right now.
By letting a Gorge build structures which currently are only available to the Khamm, this allows PRes to be spent on a structure which is balanced for a TRes only system. I.E. it would break the current game. All three of my examples seem like perfectly reasonable breakages - meaning total game breakers - at least to me they do.
That being said, I think the Gorge definitely needs more structures, more influence, more support, and more to do -> not just tasks like face hugging a Hive or Harvester, but skill based tasks - like being able to spit a foe, or building up defenses which the Gorge places (not the Khamm). I just don't think they should be the same structures which the Khamm places, as per the link from above <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">(or here)</a> -> I'm all for more awesome stuff for the Gorge to do. Actually if you read through the first post at that link, its talking about giving the Gorge the ability to manipulate some of the Khamm's structures to provide more (or different) effect.
And check out<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119596&view=findpost&p=1955199" target="_blank"> this post</a> too, a good bit simpler, but still would add a lot imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1959290:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole team going gorge is a valid strategy. It is one of the few all in strategies the aliens have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is in NS1, but not in NS2.. at least not very effectively right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1959506:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:13 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 9 2012, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh, let me clarify: The goal of how the Devs are progressing NS2 is to give each side a set of Team Resources, and with those TRes the Comm/Khamm must battle to the death in an RPG struggle. All other players are FPS and gain Personal Resources, with that PRes they purchase abilities which help them fight. This is not my opinion, this is how the game is set up right now.
By letting a Gorge build structures which currently are only available to the Khamm, this allows PRes to be spent on a structure which is balanced for a TRes only system. I.E. it would break the current game. All three of my examples seem like perfectly reasonable breakages - meaning total game breakers - at least to me they do.
That being said, I think the Gorge definitely needs more structures, more influence, more support, and more to do -> not just tasks like face hugging a Hive or Harvester, but skill based tasks - like being able to spit a foe, or building up defenses which the Gorge places (not the Khamm). I just don't think they should be the same structures which the Khamm places, as per the link from above <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">(or here)</a> -> I'm all for more awesome stuff for the Gorge to do. Actually if you read through the first post at that link, its talking about giving the Gorge the ability to manipulate some of the Khamm's structures to provide more (or different) effect.
And check out<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119596&view=findpost&p=1955199" target="_blank"> this post</a> too, a good bit simpler, but still would add a lot imo.
It is in NS1, but not in NS2.. at least not very effectively right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhh i understand now. If the devs think this way it explains why some of my ideas fell on deaf ears. Thank you for the break down. I will give this thread the consideration it deserves and the ones you linked so i can tailor my ideas to be useful.
i had an idea yesterday, i want to just throw in shortly, i'll make a more elaborate suggestion in an own topic, since i think i had some good ideas. But here for the gorge in short: make clogs researchable hive 2 ability. Reason: one gorge blocking marine progress in early game is lame. (or give gorge 3 clogs hive1, 6 hive2, 9 hive3, 12hive4) add researchable hive 1 ability remote detonated cysts. This way the gorge can have a more active role, and i think it would be fun strategically.
I'll elaborate later, just want to know what you think and if it was suggested before.
<!--quoteo(post=1959749:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:09 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i had an idea yesterday, i want to just throw in shortly, i'll make a more elaborate suggestion in an own topic, since i think i had some good ideas. But here for the gorge in short: make clogs researchable hive 2 ability. Reason: one gorge blocking marine progress in early game is lame. (or give gorge 3 clogs hive1, 6 hive2, 9 hive3, 12hive4) add researchable hive 1 ability remote detonated cysts. This way the gorge can have a more active role, and i think it would be fun strategically.
I'll elaborate later, just want to know what you think and if it was suggested before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only problem I see with this is that 3 clogs at 1 hive is pretty much useless. 3 clogs cannot block anything except for some floor vents which aren't used by marines much. 6 clogs is really the min to be useful.
however it is capped already. I'd much rather see clogs at hive 2, or as a researchable upgrade, but not from the start, since there's no counter to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1959759:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:29 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however it is capped already. I'd much rather see clogs at hive 2, or as a researchable upgrade, but not from the start, since there's no counter to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't go as far to say there is no counter to it. It depends on a couple things. Are you dealing w/ just one gorge or two. Two gorges blocking a hallway is very very hard to get through early in game. But one gorge can be brought down if you have at least 3 marines focusing on creating a hole that a marine can jump through and take out the gorge. Then the other marines can clear out the hydras.
But if Marines go for an early GL upgrade, gorge barricades are no match for a few GL rounds. They go down quite fast even if there are two gorges.
The problem I see w/ Marines trying to take out a barricade is that they keep going for the hydras. Problems is that the gorge can heal them long enough till the marines run out of ammo and have to go back to the armory. By the time they return the gorge has already put up another hydra in it's place. They need to focus on getting to the gorge and taking him out first, then clean up the mess afterwards.
the gorge can instantly replace clogs. Also, the comm needs to nano and medspam early game to maybe get rid of the gorge. And 3 marines shooting one clog makes them really vulnerable to any attack. So, there is no counter to it for vanilla marines. I guess researchable handgrenades could counter it, but i didn't really like that mechanic in NS1 for several reasons and wouldn't want to see it implemented again. GLs do counter it, but they are way up in the tech tree, and cost a lot of resources. Therefore i thought making clogs hive2 would help the problem. Or scaling the available clogs. I also think that 3 or 4 clogs are ok for a start. you can surely have a nice advantage against one or two marines, but can't hold of 5 or more on your own.
I'll post my ideas from yesterday to a new topic now.
<!--quoteo(post=1959784:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the gorge can instantly replace clogs. Also, the comm needs to nano and medspam early game to maybe get rid of the gorge. And 3 marines shooting one clog makes them really vulnerable to any attack. So, there is no counter to it for vanilla marines. I guess researchable handgrenades could counter it, but i didn't really like that mechanic in NS1 for several reasons and wouldn't want to see it implemented again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking out a clog and getting through sometimes requires timing especially if you have a quick gorge. It's been done before, hell I've even done it so it's a valid counter.
<!--quoteo(post=1959784:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GLs do counter it, but they are way up in the tech tree, and cost a lot of resources. Therefore i thought making clogs hive2 would help the problem. Or scaling the available clogs. I also think that 3 or 4 clogs are ok for a start. you can surely have a nice advantage against one or two marines, but can't hold of 5 or more on your own.
I'll post my ideas from yesterday to a new topic now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen GLs come out pretty quick when they realized that we blocked off good sections of the map. Without clogs there is not much stopping marines from rushing the gorge and killing it instantly. Hydras don't do enough damage to scare away marines. 3 clogs isn't enough to make a wall in 99% of the choke points.
<!--quoteo(post=1959759:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:29 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however it is capped already. I'd much rather see clogs at hive 2, or as a researchable upgrade, but not from the start, since there's no counter to it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, the gorge wall is the only counter to a marine rush in close spawns.
Like that phase gate marines have, Gorges should have the option to travel between the hives.
BUt yeah gorge is no fun playing at all. it feels very boring, it has pretty much the same problems as Engineers in Team fortress 2, because they added that smaller mobile combat sentry.
Gorge is just way to passive and boring, and you cant even build all that much then whats the point. standing round healing a bit here and there no thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=1960182:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:22 PM:name=RMJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RMJ @ Aug 9 2012, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like that phase gate marines have, Gorges should have the option to travel between the hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive Transport in NS1 is sorely missed. I loved being able to jump to the Hive that was under attack.
However, with the smaller maps in NS1, there's no point. And it was kinda unintuitive requiring people to explain how it worked to new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1960303:date=Aug 10 2012, 12:25 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 10 2012, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive Transport in NS1 is sorely missed. I loved being able to jump to the Hive that was under attack.
However, with the smaller maps in NS1, there's no point. And it was kinda unintuitive requiring people to explain how it worked to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call Mineshaft and docking small but I also wouldn't call them large, their a nice medium. Still can take a while to get from one hive to another, especially as a gorge. Plus there will be future maps which will probably be bigger yet.
I'd like to see a synergy between Gorges and the alien commander. Something should really be done in that regard, it already happens as it is. Alien comm could possibly grant the Gorge several structures to build outside of the hydras and blobs. Plus, it gives a little something extra to do as an Alien comm, and makes playing as a Gorge less boring/more variety in terms of creating.
<!--quoteo(post=1959808:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taking out a clog and getting through sometimes requires timing especially if you have a quick gorge. It's been done before, hell I've even done it so it's a valid counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It being doable doesn't mean it's a valid counter, and frankly, it isn't. A single skulk can make this kind of setup impenetrable. I held a hallway as skulk without upgrades together with a gorge and his wall for 10 minutes on my own. when the marines flanked the gorge, it was no problem to defend him. There were between 3 and 6 marines trying to kill us off this whole time, sometimes even more...
I know you can kill gorges behind gorgewalls, but the gorge needs to be really unfocused, to let you kill the clog, jump through, not kill you with spit, or stuck you with a clog, and then not get away from you... I hope the gorge changes somewhat ease this problem now.
<!--quoteo(post=1959808:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen GLs come out pretty quick when they realized that we blocked off good sections of the map. Without clogs there is not much stopping marines from rushing the gorge and killing it instantly. Hydras don't do enough damage to scare away marines. 3 clogs isn't enough to make a wall in 99% of the choke points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The GL upgrade costs 45 team resources and takes a lot of time to research. Gorge fortresses are out as soon as the game starts and cost nothing (10 pres...) (atm). Also it's just bad design, to make this tech path an absolute requirement, if anyone of the opposing team evolves to the only advanced lifeform available to them at round start.
But no more need for discussion imo, since i guess the healing nerf and the upcoming pres cost for hydras will ease the problem significantly.
<!--quoteo(post=1960463:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:57 AM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Aug 10 2012, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remove gorge buildings completely and make it a skillbased class to play. Aliens already have the kham for building.
The current gorge is just a griefer class that destorys all public rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree. They're forcing the Gorge into this "Lap Dog" Class - who makes no choices on their own, they just do what the Khamm wants. Copied from the changelog thread: Multiple Gorges were out of control, a single Gorge was still boring as all hell with little to no effect on the game. Fixing a Gorge rush issue by breaking the Gorge across your leg may solve the Gorge rush issue, but it also makes the Gorge even more painful of a class to play.
I vote for taking assisted building away from Gorges. Put all building process on the Khamm and have the Gorge deal with only transitive - non-permanent - structures. If that's what it takes to make Gorge an actual class instead of behaving like an NPC. Ever since Kharaan structures were given reduced growth times and (near) requirements for using the Gorges, the Gorge has become the complete workhorse of the team - and obviously it keeps getting worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1960465:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Nukoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nukoe @ Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see a synergy between Gorges and the alien commander. Something should really be done in that regard, it already happens as it is. Alien comm could possibly grant the Gorge several structures to build outside of the hydras and blobs. Plus, it gives a little something extra to do as an Alien comm, and makes playing as a Gorge less boring/more variety in terms of creating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Nukoe: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119928" target="_blank">Check out this thread.</a> My thoughts on a synergy between Khamm and Gorge.
@3del!: The only way the set up you're talking about works for the Gorge is when a Marine is trying to pass the Clog wall alone - and then the Gorge has to be really good to keep a Marine out. 9 times out of 10, the Gorge will lose this engagement if you attack properly; to attack properly: empty a clip into the lowest Clog. Clogs cannot be healed by the Gorge. Once the lowest Clog in a stack is destroyed, all the ones above it come crashing down and a Marine can easily run across. Hydras do minimal damage (only 20 of normal type) -> especially vs. armor. So the game plan should be this: <ol type='1'><li>Kill Lowest Clog</li><li>Kill Gorge</li><li>Kill Hydras/Keep moving</li></ol> = Marine will win every time in a 1 vs 1. Only time Gorge wins is when the Marine gets stuck shooting the Hydras (cause they aren't following the plan above).
<!--quoteo(post=1960568:date=Aug 10 2012, 10:02 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Aug 10 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@3del!: The only way the set up you're talking about works for the Gorge is when a Marine is trying to pass the Clog wall alone - and then the Gorge has to be really good to keep a Marine out. 9 times out of 10, the Gorge will lose this engagement if you attack properly; to attack properly: empty a clip into the lowest Clog. Clogs cannot be healed by the Gorge. Once the lowest Clog in a stack is destroyed, all the ones above it come crashing down and a Marine can easily run across. Hydras do minimal damage (only 20 of normal type) -> especially vs. armor. So the game plan should be this: <ol type='1'><li>Kill Lowest Clog</li><li>Kill Gorge</li><li>Kill Hydras/Keep moving</li></ol> = Marine will win every time in a 1 vs 1. Only time Gorge wins is when the Marine gets stuck shooting the Hydras (cause they aren't following the plan above).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if they aren't, the comm can give them advice and drop a nanoshield to help them break through.
It's part of learning the game. In NS1 it was often worth it to suicide and get a Gorge behind OCs, or just run past OCs. New players though would get stuck trying to shoot it down, wasting time and resources until they learned better.
Comments
Maybe it's just the way i play gorge, but I am never bored.
Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.
It would return the gorge to its glory without breaking the Khamm. Past these small ideas each needs a serious polish. Alien Khamm needing the most love and a <i>direction</i>.
Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.
It would return the gorge to its glory without breaking the Khamm. Past these small ideas each needs a serious polish. Alien Khamm needing the most love and a <i>direction</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post wins the thread. Not griefable, makes gorge resource pool useful for gorges who want to remain gorge all game, and doesnt step on the khammanders toes.
<a href="http://youtu.be/E-MINfVtYik" target="_blank">Congratulations, Enjoy your victory tune</a>
I like your idea of having a timer on gorge buildings, so that you can just keep building and building if you stay gorge for the whole round.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">Check this topic out for some ideas along the lines you're talking about.</a>
As for making the Gorge buy standard structures.. it simply wouldn't work folks. The game is being designed so the entire team's res is the same no matter how big the team is -> so that gameplay can have some sort of consistency and stay fun no matter if there are more or less people.
Imagine this if you will: Khamm goes Shade hive. Drops Feign Death. All other players (possibly 15) go Gorge. Drop one Shade each at various places on the map - particularly on the path towards the second hive. All Gorges go back to Skulk. Its game over.
Imagine the same scenario with Shifts and their "Forward Egg Placement" ability - which is a 'vanilla' ability I believe. Rush Marine base and drop a Shift right outside with tons of eggs? That's the end of the game. And the same with Crags as the Skulks would have plenty of support right outside the base. Remember that if the Khamm isn't spending money on structures, he's spending the money on abilities -> this would completely break the game.
Its not fair to anyone playing as the Marines couldn't do anything, and the Kharaa would be SOO over powered that it would be like shooting at fish in a barrel. The idea is to separate what PRes and TRes allow you to do, thereby insuring a good bit of stability despite team size.
Non game breaking, something else to build, and allows for more intelligent placement on walls/roof etc
Non game breaking, something else to build, and allows for more intelligent placement on walls/roof etc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge used to be able to create Mini-Cysts (weaker cysts, see Gorilla trailer). But since the change to limited free structures, Mini-Cyst was phased out because dropping new ones cause a Cyst chain to break, and infestation recedes also killing any structures the Alien Commander placed (unless he reconnects using normal Cysts).
While I agree the Gorge can use more structure variants, he'll just have to make do with what he has. Post-release will probably bring new toys to the table. That said, I would've love it if Shell/Veil/Spur were Hive-tied Gorge structures with special abilities and instead evolutions are researched on Crag/Shade/Shift Hives. After all, you lose evolution access and slots when a type of Hive goes down.
That could help in creating 2 or more different fronts in defending/attacking a certain place
That could help in creating 2 or more different fronts in defending/attacking a certain place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't I would want to worry about the cysts staying alive all the time as gorge :/
In the past I also felt that gorge-minicysts were redundant with normal cyst.
<!--quoteo(post=1957582:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:15 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Aug 5 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe gorges should be able to buy eggs without jumping into the chair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1958320:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:14 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 6 2012, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please give the gorge the Crag, Shade, Shift, and Whip. Get rid of the hydra (redundant) and make everything the gorge drops cost Pres. The Khamm would still retain the other structures for upgrades and have that spike block thing for defensive measures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Personally Hydras are OK, but I'm not picky)
Gorges spending PRes to drop real cysts would be interesting too.
An overlooked ability I often see is how effective Gorges and Khammanders work together. I had a Gorge once going along helping my cysts and Extractors drop, and man did it speed things up early game.
As for making the Gorge buy standard structures.. it simply wouldn't work folks. The game is being designed so the entire team's res is the same no matter how big the team is -> so that gameplay can have some sort of consistency and stay fun no matter if there are more or less people.
Imagine this if you will: Khamm goes Shade hive. Drops Feign Death. All other players (possibly 15) go Gorge. Drop one Shade each at various places on the map - particularly on the path towards the second hive. All Gorges go back to Skulk. Its game over.
Imagine the same scenario with Shifts and their "Forward Egg Placement" ability - which is a 'vanilla' ability I believe. Rush Marine base and drop a Shift right outside with tons of eggs? That's the end of the game. And the same with Crags as the Skulks would have plenty of support right outside the base. Remember that if the Khamm isn't spending money on structures, he's spending the money on abilities -> this would completely break the game.
Its not fair to anyone playing as the Marines couldn't do anything, and the Kharaa would be SOO over powered that it would be like shooting at fish in a barrel. The idea is to separate what PRes and TRes allow you to do, thereby insuring a good bit of stability despite team size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just silly. It wasnt game breaking in NS1 and wouldnt be in NS2. It would actually give the gorge a reason to gorge and give him more front line tools without hurting the alien Kham's role.
The whole team going gorge is a valid strategy. It is one of the few all in strategies the aliens have.
Eh, let me clarify: The goal of how the Devs are progressing NS2 is to give each side a set of Team Resources, and with those TRes the Comm/Khamm must battle to the death in an RPG struggle. All other players are FPS and gain Personal Resources, with that PRes they purchase abilities which help them fight. This is not my opinion, this is how the game is set up right now.
By letting a Gorge build structures which currently are only available to the Khamm, this allows PRes to be spent on a structure which is balanced for a TRes only system. I.E. it would break the current game. All three of my examples seem like perfectly reasonable breakages - meaning total game breakers - at least to me they do.
That being said, I think the Gorge definitely needs more structures, more influence, more support, and more to do -> not just tasks like face hugging a Hive or Harvester, but skill based tasks - like being able to spit a foe, or building up defenses which the Gorge places (not the Khamm). I just don't think they should be the same structures which the Khamm places, as per the link from above <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">(or here)</a> -> I'm all for more awesome stuff for the Gorge to do. Actually if you read through the first post at that link, its talking about giving the Gorge the ability to manipulate some of the Khamm's structures to provide more (or different) effect.
And check out<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119596&view=findpost&p=1955199" target="_blank"> this post</a> too, a good bit simpler, but still would add a lot imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1959290:date=Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 8 2012, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole team going gorge is a valid strategy. It is one of the few all in strategies the aliens have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is in NS1, but not in NS2.. at least not very effectively right now.
By letting a Gorge build structures which currently are only available to the Khamm, this allows PRes to be spent on a structure which is balanced for a TRes only system. I.E. it would break the current game. All three of my examples seem like perfectly reasonable breakages - meaning total game breakers - at least to me they do.
That being said, I think the Gorge definitely needs more structures, more influence, more support, and more to do -> not just tasks like face hugging a Hive or Harvester, but skill based tasks - like being able to spit a foe, or building up defenses which the Gorge places (not the Khamm). I just don't think they should be the same structures which the Khamm places, as per the link from above <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">(or here)</a> -> I'm all for more awesome stuff for the Gorge to do. Actually if you read through the first post at that link, its talking about giving the Gorge the ability to manipulate some of the Khamm's structures to provide more (or different) effect.
And check out<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119596&view=findpost&p=1955199" target="_blank"> this post</a> too, a good bit simpler, but still would add a lot imo.
It is in NS1, but not in NS2.. at least not very effectively right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhh i understand now. If the devs think this way it explains why some of my ideas fell on deaf ears. Thank you for the break down. I will give this thread the consideration it deserves and the ones you linked so i can tailor my ideas to be useful.
make clogs researchable hive 2 ability. Reason: one gorge blocking marine progress in early game is lame. (or give gorge 3 clogs hive1, 6 hive2, 9 hive3, 12hive4)
add researchable hive 1 ability remote detonated cysts. This way the gorge can have a more active role, and i think it would be fun strategically.
I'll elaborate later, just want to know what you think and if it was suggested before.
make clogs researchable hive 2 ability. Reason: one gorge blocking marine progress in early game is lame. (or give gorge 3 clogs hive1, 6 hive2, 9 hive3, 12hive4)
add researchable hive 1 ability remote detonated cysts. This way the gorge can have a more active role, and i think it would be fun strategically.
I'll elaborate later, just want to know what you think and if it was suggested before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only problem I see with this is that 3 clogs at 1 hive is pretty much useless. 3 clogs cannot block anything except for some floor vents which aren't used by marines much. 6 clogs is really the min to be useful.
I really hate seeing cap limits as a fix.
I wouldn't go as far to say there is no counter to it. It depends on a couple things. Are you dealing w/ just one gorge or two. Two gorges blocking a hallway is very very hard to get through early in game. But one gorge can be brought down if you have at least 3 marines focusing on creating a hole that a marine can jump through and take out the gorge. Then the other marines can clear out the hydras.
But if Marines go for an early GL upgrade, gorge barricades are no match for a few GL rounds. They go down quite fast even if there are two gorges.
The problem I see w/ Marines trying to take out a barricade is that they keep going for the hydras. Problems is that the gorge can heal them long enough till the marines run out of ammo and have to go back to the armory. By the time they return the gorge has already put up another hydra in it's place.
They need to focus on getting to the gorge and taking him out first, then clean up the mess afterwards.
GLs do counter it, but they are way up in the tech tree, and cost a lot of resources. Therefore i thought making clogs hive2 would help the problem. Or scaling the available clogs. I also think that 3 or 4 clogs are ok for a start. you can surely have a nice advantage against one or two marines, but can't hold of 5 or more on your own.
I'll post my ideas from yesterday to a new topic now.
Taking out a clog and getting through sometimes requires timing especially if you have a quick gorge.
It's been done before, hell I've even done it so it's a valid counter.
<!--quoteo(post=1959784:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 9 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GLs do counter it, but they are way up in the tech tree, and cost a lot of resources. Therefore i thought making clogs hive2 would help the problem. Or scaling the available clogs. I also think that 3 or 4 clogs are ok for a start. you can surely have a nice advantage against one or two marines, but can't hold of 5 or more on your own.
I'll post my ideas from yesterday to a new topic now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen GLs come out pretty quick when they realized that we blocked off good sections of the map.
Without clogs there is not much stopping marines from rushing the gorge and killing it instantly. Hydras don't do enough damage to scare away marines. 3 clogs isn't enough to make a wall in 99% of the choke points.
To be fair, the gorge wall is the only counter to a marine rush in close spawns.
BUt yeah gorge is no fun playing at all. it feels very boring, it has pretty much the same problems as Engineers in Team fortress 2, because they added that smaller mobile combat sentry.
Gorge is just way to passive and boring, and you cant even build all that much then whats the point. standing round healing a bit here and there no thanks.
Hive Transport in NS1 is sorely missed. I loved being able to jump to the Hive that was under attack.
However, with the smaller maps in NS1, there's no point. And it was kinda unintuitive requiring people to explain how it worked to new players.
However, with the smaller maps in NS1, there's no point. And it was kinda unintuitive requiring people to explain how it worked to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call Mineshaft and docking small but I also wouldn't call them large, their a nice medium. Still can take a while to get from one hive to another, especially as a gorge.
Plus there will be future maps which will probably be bigger yet.
The current gorge is just a griefer class that destorys all public rounds.
It's been done before, hell I've even done it so it's a valid counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It being doable doesn't mean it's a valid counter, and frankly, it isn't. A single skulk can make this kind of setup impenetrable. I held a hallway as skulk without upgrades together with a gorge and his wall for 10 minutes on my own. when the marines flanked the gorge, it was no problem to defend him. There were between 3 and 6 marines trying to kill us off this whole time, sometimes even more...
I know you can kill gorges behind gorgewalls, but the gorge needs to be really unfocused, to let you kill the clog, jump through, not kill you with spit, or stuck you with a clog, and then not get away from you... I hope the gorge changes somewhat ease this problem now.
<!--quoteo(post=1959808:date=Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Aug 9 2012, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen GLs come out pretty quick when they realized that we blocked off good sections of the map.
Without clogs there is not much stopping marines from rushing the gorge and killing it instantly. Hydras don't do enough damage to scare away marines. 3 clogs isn't enough to make a wall in 99% of the choke points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The GL upgrade costs 45 team resources and takes a lot of time to research. Gorge fortresses are out as soon as the game starts and cost nothing (10 pres...) (atm). Also it's just bad design, to make this tech path an absolute requirement, if anyone of the opposing team evolves to the only advanced lifeform available to them at round start.
But no more need for discussion imo, since i guess the healing nerf and the upcoming pres cost for hydras will ease the problem significantly.
The current gorge is just a griefer class that destorys all public rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree. They're forcing the Gorge into this "Lap Dog" Class - who makes no choices on their own, they just do what the Khamm wants. Copied from the changelog thread:
Multiple Gorges were out of control, a single Gorge was still boring as all hell with little to no effect on the game. Fixing a Gorge rush issue by breaking the Gorge across your leg may solve the Gorge rush issue, but it also makes the Gorge even more painful of a class to play.
I vote for taking assisted building away from Gorges. Put all building process on the Khamm and have the Gorge deal with only transitive - non-permanent - structures. If that's what it takes to make Gorge an actual class instead of behaving like an NPC. Ever since Kharaan structures were given reduced growth times and (near) requirements for using the Gorges, the Gorge has become the complete workhorse of the team - and obviously it keeps getting worse.
Why should I want to play the Gorge anymore?
<img src="http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4677/iwillbreakyou.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1960465:date=Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Nukoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nukoe @ Aug 10 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1960465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see a synergy between Gorges and the alien commander. Something should really be done in that regard, it already happens as it is. Alien comm could possibly grant the Gorge several structures to build outside of the hydras and blobs. Plus, it gives a little something extra to do as an Alien comm, and makes playing as a Gorge less boring/more variety in terms of creating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Nukoe: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119928" target="_blank">Check out this thread.</a> My thoughts on a synergy between Khamm and Gorge.
@3del!: The only way the set up you're talking about works for the Gorge is when a Marine is trying to pass the Clog wall alone - and then the Gorge has to be really good to keep a Marine out. 9 times out of 10, the Gorge will lose this engagement if you attack properly; to attack properly: empty a clip into the lowest Clog. Clogs cannot be healed by the Gorge. Once the lowest Clog in a stack is destroyed, all the ones above it come crashing down and a Marine can easily run across. Hydras do minimal damage (only 20 of normal type) -> especially vs. armor. So the game plan should be this:
<ol type='1'><li>Kill Lowest Clog</li><li>Kill Gorge</li><li>Kill Hydras/Keep moving</li></ol>
= Marine will win every time in a 1 vs 1. Only time Gorge wins is when the Marine gets stuck shooting the Hydras (cause they aren't following the plan above).
<ol type='1'><li>Kill Lowest Clog</li><li>Kill Gorge</li><li>Kill Hydras/Keep moving</li></ol>
= Marine will win every time in a 1 vs 1. Only time Gorge wins is when the Marine gets stuck shooting the Hydras (cause they aren't following the plan above).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if they aren't, the comm can give them advice and drop a nanoshield to help them break through.
It's part of learning the game. In NS1 it was often worth it to suicide and get a Gorge behind OCs, or just run past OCs. New players though would get stuck trying to shoot it down, wasting time and resources until they learned better.