The rise and fall of amazing games

H3lixH3lix Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154722Members, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">we compare games vs their predessors</div><b><u>Disclaimer: This will be a long read. This is also NOT intended to be a troll post, so please don’t treat it as such. This thread is simply a speculative/theoretical post to answer/raise questions I have been thinking a lot, and sadly very passionately about recently. I will do my best to keep personal opinions out of my article and retain a neutral stance. I am not a professional writer and I do not claim to be one, so I apologize for any bad grammar or other errors found in this post. TL;DR will be located at the bottom just for the people who only want a summary.</u></b>

Think back to June 29th 2000, all of us who played the original Diablo, and even those who never have, got to look forward to and play the new Diablo II being released. While the game may not have been ground breaking or revolutionary it was quite addictive. We all enjoyed our single and multi-player item hunt. Many of us would farm the same bosses for hours on end hoping to get that one piece of gear with the absolute perfect stats on it for our build! We could even trade item’s online with friend’s and spend even more glorious time hacking and slashing away at the minions of hell! Many people including me considered ourselves addicted to this game. It was both simplistic and very in-depth at the very same time!
On the simple side of the spectrum anyone could hop into a quick Mephisto run and farm him for a few kill’s before work while drinking your morning coffee and watching the news. On the opposite side of the spectrum it was very detailed and in depth because of stat allocation, runes, gem’s, classes, and in general the mass and almost infinite options of character creation. Now, you’re probably thinking “but what about min/maxing? That removes all customizability”! Yes, there were certain cookie cutter builds, but this is true in every game that has the option of min/maxing. It all depends on how you want to play the game that suits your personal preferences and taste’s.

Now, jump forward to June 27th 2001. Blizzard-North was releasing Diablo II: Lord of destruction. Building upon what was previously a very successful game by anyone’s standards. They decided to release an expansion for this critically acclaimed and fan favorite game. As they and everyone else expected, it turned out to be another huge hit and sold millions of copies. Everyone loved the new act, and the memorable Baal run’s for more epic items! Blizzard-North threw down the gauntlet, and we as gamers happily accepted this new challenge. Besides a few minor tweaks of stats, and items and a few other miscellaneous things throughout the game, it roughly remained unchanged from its original form.
Now, it is Time to jump forward in time once more, this time to the launch of DIII. The date is May 15th 2012. The previous studio once known as Blizzard-North is no longer around. The company is now known as Activision-Blizzard. It is time for them to release their newest title for the Diablo universe. They release teaser footage about amazing new graphics, and features. First on the list of amazing new features, were the Nephalem cube, and the Cauldron of Jordan. The intended use of these amazing new features was to keep player in the field slaying demons and pushing back the minions of hell. Since this feature was added you would no longer have to return to town in order to salvage your garbage and sell your greys/other random vendor trash. Next Item on the list of new features was the ability to grab Health globes on the go, and add a CD to player consumed Pot’s to increase the skill ceiling of the game.

But the most amazing and highly anticipated new feature was the GAH, and the RMAH. These two features alone were supposed to take trading items and gearing up to a whole new level, and make it easier than ever before. With these new added features we could trade with thousands of people worldwide instead of just select friends on privately run and password locked servers. This made the process of gear acquisition much easier and more precise, as you could search for specific stats and items that best suited your character’s needs.

After many years of waiting for the game, and many teaser trailers later blizzard decided to remove the option of having the Nephalem cube, and the Cauldron of Jordan. The Auction Houses were also felt by many player’s to be lack-luster due to the limited amount of search features, and the magnitude of the same item being posted at once. Despite these changes The new title sold estimated 3.5 million copies in the first 24 hours. Over the duration of the first seven days it sold estimated 6.3 million copies. Millions of players across the globe logged in and began to furiously charge towards the ultimate difficulty labeled Inferno difficulty. Then problems started to arise, many people felt the game was over tuned and far to “gear dependent” thus forcing them to use the respective available auction houses. Not everyone felt as though they should be forced to buy gear in order to progress. Many players preferred the idea of farming their own gear, however this proved to be rather difficult due to the drop rates of items from within the game.

After more and more players reached inferno, more people felt that the game was just a cash grab with the RMAH and low drop rates forcing them into buying their gear. Diablo III too many people felt less like a one-time purchase and farm your gear, and more like a pay to win business model. Many players started posting stats and links all over the forums of different sites that provided statistical data that the game was dying fast as the time went on. People felt the game had changed for the worse, rather than the better in regards to its previous incarnations in the series. Many player’s felt like they had been duped out of their money by Activision-Blizzard into buying a game that was not about the gear hunt so much as it was a gear buy style of game. People began to wonder how a game that used to be about farming bosses for hours on end had become a run around and farm elites with extremely difficult (and sometime outright impossible ability affixes).

Many players began to feel alienated that the Diablo they grew up with and loved had received so many drastic changes. Some people felt it was for the worst, while others felt it was great. However as time draws on the 2 sides begin to argue their points to the points it has devolved into senseless name calling rather than constructive feedback. If you enjoyed the game you were labeled a fanboy/girl. If you hated the way the game had taken a turn for, you were labeled a troll/band-wagoner.

How could such a previously amazing series had have had such a downturn? How a game that at its peak sold estimated 7 million copies, turn out to be such a failure in so many people’s opinions? Many people believed it was due to the fact the difference between Diablo II and Diablo III was night and day. The only thing they had in common to many people was the hack and slash top down view of the player’s character in the in-game environment. Other than that everything had been changed, from the color scheme, play style, item drop rates to the new GAH/RMAH that had been implemented.

==========================================================

This brings me to the second portion of my article. Let me begin by introducing Natural selection. A game released October 31st 2002 by Unknown Worlds Entertainment. For the rest of this article it will be referred to as UWE. Now, I know you’re asking yourself, “but Helix, what does natural selection have to do with the Diablo universe? They are two completely different genres of games!” Well, please allow me to explain. For those who are unfamiliar with Natural selection it is a fps/rts style of game. It was originally nothing more than a mod released for the original half-life game. While it may be a mod for the original Half-Life game, UWE has no affiliation with Valve software. They are both independent game companies.

Natural Selection became popular to a very niche group (myself included). Many people loved the fact in this game both first person shooters had been combined with real time strategy. These gave the series an entirely new twist as players could play as the commander and tell his units (other real life players) on the field what to build and where to go. This was the marine side of the fence. Meanwhile the Alien forces known as the Kharaa, had no commander and had evolutions rather than “upgrades”. They also had different available life forms which kept the game very asymmetrical form of balance. While this may sound like an oxymoron it is in fact quite balanced. Both teams were supposed to play entirely differently but everything was supposed to have a soft/hard counter without homogenizing the game to much. Marines have flame throwers, grenade launchers, jet packs, scans, exoskeleton suits upgrades. While aliens had speed evolutions, increased bit damage, cloaking, and even the ability to build defensive structures wherever they were needed.

While I could not find specific numbers with Google for how many people actually downloaded and actively played Natural Selection 1 due to it being a very niche game. I played for several years and the community was always very active. I never had any problems finding matches to play for the several years I did play it.

Now, we fast forward through time again to the present. Natural Selection 2 is in beta stage. It has many of its previous players very excited to get to play a new and improved version of their long missed, well played favorite Natural Selection 1. Everyone’s first question tended to be, “Hey UWE, what is new and different about ns2 from ns1?” Natural Selection 2 in its current stage of development remains relatively the same as its predecessor. The biggest change is that the graphics are no longer of the Half-Life 1 quality; they have received a major overhaul to tax even the most powerful of gaming rigs. This game is now on par with many current releases such as Crysis 2, and Metro 2033 to name a few of the many, many high end graphically demanding games on the market.

The second change is that now both Marines, and Kharaa alike require a commander. A popular fan base coined name khammander for the aliens. Both sides of these races will go head to head in this games amazing new map’s for strategic and competitive maps for control of the resource nodes. This is most easily described to new players as minerals or gas from StarCraft or any other popular RTS game.

Natural Selection 2 has since gained a much, much larger fan base than its predecessor. Is is also most notably a stand-alone game now rather than merely just a mod for a currently existing game. Since Natural Selection 2 has not finished its beta stages yet it has not been released. There are also no available statistics on how many sales it has made so far due to its unreleased status. However the game boasts an extremely active population with hundreds of active and full servers in its peak hours and a very active forum community.

Now, you’re probably still wondering what Diablo III and Natural Selection 2 have in common. Well, the reason I am comparing these two amazing games is that Diablo II > Diablo III changed many, many aspects of the game. Some of these changes were for the worst, some were for the better. That however is for you, the reader to decide not me. The differences between Natural Selection 1 > Natural Selection 2 are few and far between regarding gameplay, not necessarily graphics.

I will conclude this article with the thought of did the Diablo series change to much from its predecessors and alienate its original fan base in order to attract a new crowd of players? The second question I would like to leave you with is, Since ns1 > ns2 changed relatively little about the game except for graphics the game has gotten a majority of its previous player to return due to nostalgia (myself included) and attracted thousand, if not millions of more player’s due to its original and unique game play style? I will leave you, the reader to decide what you think is the truth, as that is not my intention of this article. I want people’s different opinions on the rise and fall of these 2 games and why they think it occurred.

Thank you very much to everyone who actually read this entire thing and giving me your attention long enough to consider my personal thoughts and opinions stated in this article.

<u>TL;DR was Diablo’s mistake that it changed to much and alienated its player base? Or did something else cause it? Is NS2 so popular because it changed almost nothing but the graphics engine from its original? You decide. </u>

Comments

  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    Not sure if this this would be better of in the Off-Topic section. Good thread anyway
  • H3lixH3lix Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154722Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1957149:date=Aug 4 2012, 01:37 PM:name=ellnic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ellnic @ Aug 4 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if this this would be better of in the Off-Topic section. Good thread anyway<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    couldn't find an OT forum, my apologies if a moderator can/would move it, it would be appreciated.
  • SebenzaSebenza Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154649Members
    There's one major difference: UWE does not have a greedy publisher pushing towards a premature release.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Personally, I feel like one of the biggest causes of the wider market attraction is the vastly improved marketing, not changes to the game.
  • Matty101Matty101 Join Date: 2012-08-02 Member: 154618Members
    Had a quick skim, you right diablo felt like a short, shallow cash grab game.
    As for ns i never played ns1 due to most mods i tried for various games being very underpopulated, however a standalone tends to have a bigger more dedicated playerbase, as well they tend to imply more content and support thats why i got ns2.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
  • GrimfangGrimfang Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13086Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    It's a nice post, and while I don't really disagree much with what is said, I don't really know what will happen to NS2, it's still being developed, and the direction it has now looks good, but we are missing some changes and things could be put in that break the game in a way that makes it less fun. It seems that more and more people are joining servers, so it seems what is being done is the right thing, but time will tell.
  • H3lixH3lix Join Date: 2012-08-03 Member: 154722Members, NS2 Map Tester
    thank you to everyone who has read this and your positive responses so far. this took me awhile to write and i also posted it on the DIII forums, however they are only trolling it while the people on this forums (as I've grown to expect) show maturity and positive feedback regardless of their stances on topic's. Your time and attention is very, very much appreciated for allowing me to get this off my chest.
  • plausiblesargeplausiblesarge Join Date: 2012-08-02 Member: 154558Members
    Good thread.

    Although we have to note that there ARE significant differences between NS1 and NS2, such as the marines being able to buy their own weapons at the armory (NS Combat mode doesnt count), the alien commander, and the power system. The developers are relatively lucky that these features have been well received by the general community. The best way for the developers to remain true to the franchise, and to not alienate their players, is to remain vigilent and do the one thing blizzard cannot do - listen to their fan base. UWE has to be prepared to remove or change features that the community does not like, even if they are major parts of the game (like the power grid). So far they are doing a reasonable job and I applaud their efforts.

    Just remember UWE, stay vigilant, stay on the ball, and stay connected, and your game is guaranteed to be well loved
  • HeymanHeyman Join Date: 2005-03-29 Member: 46895Members
    edited August 2012
    You're putting NS2 on a rather high pedestal there. The graphics are certainly not on par with Crysis and Metro 2033. It's only intensive on the our computers due to a largely unoptimized engine and LUA scripting chokes. Gameplay is unbalanced as well.

    But what I can say, is that along the entire journey, the guys at Unknown Worlds have been honest. They have been transparent. They have been faithful to their community.

    I've been reading their blogs ever since I looked at the Dynamic Infestation test on the source engine. I watched them announce the engine change. I read how they managed to find investors to gamble on their project, while they worked on concept art and engine design. They updated the website often. I still remember the model previews and the glowies. I played the little puzzle game they made to keep them fed and programming full-time. I saw them endure the harsh criticism of the first alpha test, as well as the fallout for when they bit the bullet to switch to beta.

    Then it got better. The beta was no longer an unplayable mess. A really dedicated guy named Hugh joined the team. The game of my dreams, the game of THEIR dreams, is coming to fruition. It's not perfect, and it's not exactly how we envisioned it, but the sweat, blood, and tears they put into this is finally being seen by a lot of people, and those people are definitely telling UWE what they think about it.

    And it was just those few blog posts at the beginning that led me to witness it all. Those little tidbits of communication are probably the cause of where Natural Selection 2 and Unknown Worlds stand today. Max and Flayra have reached out to their community the best they can, at every point in this game's development. The karma is snowballing, and I think they're going to get their due.

    <b>tl;dr - They're doing it right</b>
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    NS2 isn't more popular than NS1 was, yet - NS1 had more than a million downloads, probably two by the end of it - and I don't think what popularity it does have is particularly because of changing little from its predecessor. Or at least, not because of the lack of change in itself, but possibly because NS was such a great concept from the start, so changing little while making it more easily available to the market is enough to bring in players.

    For me, personally, it's too early to say if NS2 will be a worthy successor. Though I have plenty of faith in UWE's skills, I don't agree with every design decision they make (of course, this was also true for NS1....) - but if nothing else I count my purchase of NS2 as payment for several <i>years</i> of enjoyment from the previous game, and am willing to simply wait and see if the sequel changes to my liking.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I think blizzard went full satan when they were bought by activision, look at this meeting about the no-lan feature (yes, there is no lan in sc2, so players lag out during pro tournament) :

    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_UFA1ieWA8s"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_UFA1ieWA8s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

    It seems there is also some dirty story with broodwar in korea, but I didn't really followed.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1957222:date=Aug 4 2012, 04:17 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 4 2012, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me, personally, it's too early to say if NS2 will be a worthy successor. Though I have plenty of faith in UWE's skills, I don't agree with every design decision they make (of course, this was also true for NS1....) - but if nothing else I count my purchase of NS2 as payment for several <i>years</i> of enjoyment from the previous game, and am willing to simply wait and see if the sequel changes to my liking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well said, my thoughts exactly.
  • hamham Join Date: 2011-08-31 Member: 119370Members, Constellation
    NS2 floats in a similar boat as CS:GO, with a comparable release date, development period, and competitive community waiting to see whether transferring is a good idea. A fog of uncertainty makes judgements on the final product of either game difficult at the moment. Hopefully we can look back on the developmental similarities and eventually successes between NS2 and CS:GO in the coming years, rather than the failures of Nuclear Dawn or Red Orchestra 2.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    Playing Nuclear Dawn over a free weekend filled me with an odd mixture of disappointment and relief. Disappointment because the game wasn't very good, and relief because I hadn't blindly bought it only to regret it.
  • Bloodshot12Bloodshot12 Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152578Members
    edited August 2012
    I have to disagree about Diablo 3 - the fault wasn't that it changed too much, but that it didn't change <i>enough</i>, and the few changes that they made were regressions instead of improvements.

    WARNING: THIS IS A LONG READ, you can get the basic idea if you skim each paragraph though

    Sequels are iterative in nature, that's why they are sequels. But Diablo 3 should have taken what Diablo 2 did and expanded upon it, not overhaul things just because they were flawed. The biggest example of this is the skill system. They toted it as being such an upgrade from diablo 2 because you no longer needed set builds, when in reality, only a handful of combinations work well for the hardest difficulty anyway, which made it effectively the same as Diablo 2, except they hand you everything, instead of giving the player choice. Even if it theoretically should work better, they are also taking the appeal out of what was already a very streamlined RPG series. I have another point to make as well as to why people dislike it so much, but I'll get to that in a minute.

    Lets rewind time back to 96. Diablo 1 was released, and it was universally praised. Blizzard expected this, so they absorbed condor beforehand and transformed them into blizzard north - but it was still Blizzard North doing the majority of the work. Diablo 2 comes along in 2000. What makes it so great? It took almost everything the original had and improved on it in some way. The skill tree was a great alternative to skill books because it let you control how you built your character. For many people, it didn't matter if they were doing it right or wrong, or if they completely ruined their builds. It was enjoyable to be able to control your character's growth and direction, and it was easy enough compared to other RPGs that it wasn't overwhelming for the average player to do. Diablo 3 introduced a linear progression for both stats and skills, with being able to mod your skills in real time with the runes. While this is a good idea in theory, in practice it isn't so good. Remember cookie-cutter character builds that serious players would follow in Diablo 2? This was supposed to avoid that. But the end result instead, was not cookie-cutter character builds, but cookie-cutter <i>classes</i>. The only thing that distinguished one player from another was his items, and his rune selections. But the worse part of it, is it takes the control away from the player, and it lessens the reward of the progression. I think it's fairly clear that the driving factor behind these decisions was to make the AH more useful, because it could turn a good profit for blizz. Even so, forget about the auction house. Go back and play Diablo 1 and 2. Gaining a level, seeing those buttons/button pop up is <i>satisfying</i> because your hard-earned work is going to change you in a way you choose. Look at Diablo 3 instead - they added monologues, and pretty yellow shockwaves and sparkles when you level up. All it is though is a mask to make leveling visually appealing, because there's no more control over it. And that lessens the gratification leveling up provides, as well as the drive to keep playing.

    Ok enough about the game mechanics. Another reason why Diablo 3 failed. Its art direction and departure from an established series.

    Check out Diablo 1. It was a survival-<i>horror</i> gothic action rpg. Blizzard North put in enormous effort into making every inch of that game seep atmosphere, to make you feel something when you play the game. Every single creature, even a simple zombie or skeleton, was intimidating in that game. It all served to further the theme that you were building up a character to <i>survive</i> (and eventually defeat the evil). It was as much horror as it was action, and if you go back and play it, it's clearly obvious to many people. Here's some examples, courtesy of Matt Uelmen:
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpp3bKo8xn0" target="_blank">Diablo - Hell</a>

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gjkNl97Qbg&feature=related" target="_blank">Diablo - Catacombs</a>

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cH8ZwL3A7Q&feature=related" target="_blank">Diablo - Dungeon</a>

    I mean, this stuff was <i>bone-chilling</i> when you first heard it, especially in 96. Combine that with the grim BUT REALISTIC imagery, It really struck a chord with people.

    Ask anyone who's played Diablo 1, and they can easily recount their first experience with the butcher, or king leoric, etc. Yes, the rpg aspects weren't as in depth as something like fallout, but it wasn't just the fact that it was real time combat. It was damn <b>immersive</b>, and all of the design decisions reflect that. Even how your character only walks - they could've easily made you run - but having your character do a fast walk slowed down the game's progression, and made it much more tense - especially when coming up on dangerous areas with monsters you aren't sure you can take. And add on top of that the storytelling in the game (how you find out more as you progress naturally, instead of being spoon-fed backstory and information with a button *cough* diablo 3 lore button *cough*. It gave meaning to the setting, and to what was going on and it made the simple story of Demons terrorizing a town way more interesting, in the same vein Half-Life's storytelling made the basic Doom plot "Teleportation gone wrong" more interesting (well HL wasn't only teleportation, but you get the idea)

    Skip ahead to Diablo 2. This was something many people were disappointed in, but not enough for them to not enjoy the game. Diablo 2 was severely missing the horror elements of Diablo 1 - BUT at the same time, it still had little things here and there, that would make you realize it's still there, it was just toned down. But it very much stayed true to the eerie themes of Diablo, albeit in very minor ways - even the music, it was still creepy, but not nearly close to the Diablo 1 stuff in terms of nailing the atmosphere. This would have been a potentially bigger problem, but the game made up for that with the sheer amount of improvements and expansion to the gameplay. It took what Diablo did, and made everything about it even <i>better</i> and that's a hard thing to do, especially since Diablo 1 was already an excellent game. Sure it may have lost some of that survival-horror charm in the process, but it was great enough that you could go and replay Diablo 1 and 2 and enjoy them for different reasons. (and on top of that, the hell portion of the game was probably the closest stylistically you'd see to the prior game, and did a pretty good job too)

    Now, on to Diablo 3. This was perhaps the biggest slap in the face, and I think we can all agree. Blizzard basically took the series established style, and <i>###### on it</i>, and the end result was some weird love-child between WoW and some of those japanese MMO styles you see, with a darker look. The new dev team's answer to creating atmosphere was semi-dark lighting, and tinting the screen with a dark blue, red, or green - a mistake many people make way too often. They lacked a basic understanding of why Diablo and D2's style worked so well, and sought to change something that was perhaps the biggest standout trait of the Diablo franchise. Diablo 2 may have reduced the horror aspect in the transition from Diablo 1, but Diablo 3 makes Diablo 2 look like your worst nightmare.

    NOW BEFORE YOU PROCESS THIS - think for a second. Many of these changes would have been okay, had it been a different IP. Hell, even if it was a reboot - it would at least establish from the get-go that they are deviating from the series. But it's not, it's a <b>sequel</b>. Even worse, Diablo was insanely <i>popular</i>. It's not like it was a dead franchise that needed to change or die, there are tons of people playing Diablo 2 and even Diablo 1 and making mods still for a <i>reason</i>. Diablo 3's direction - defeats the entire purpose of making a sequel to a game. If you took out the Diablo name, it would look more like a Diablo clone, whereas something like Path of Exile, just by looking at it for the first time, from playing prior games you might think that was diablo 3. It was also made worse that the storytelling methods in Diablo 3 only serve to make a simple story mediocre. Diablo 1 and 2 had great production values and excellent writing, and especially the cutscenes made you feel like you were watching a good movie.

    All in all, it wasn't a bad game by any means, but it is most certainly NOT Diablo. By making this game they may have got a lot of sales, but they turned it into something completely different, and alienated the many fans that loved the franchise and made it what it is.

    A lot of this probably comes from the new devs simply not understanding what blizzard north was attempting to accomplish with the Diablo series.

    IMO UWE with NS2 is falling into a similar place, though not as drastically as Diablo 3. I love NS2 flawed as it may be, but UWE has to find logical ways to take the good things from NS1, and expand upon them, while adding new things that make it better then it's predecessor. If they don't change enough, they run the risk of turning NS2 into a NS1 with better graphics, which makes the whole idea of NS2 pointless, and a failure as a product. But if they change too much, they are loosing the essence of what made the first game/mod great, and it hurts the game just as much.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    "Demon's Souls is what Diablo 3 should have been."

    Discuss.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
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