ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Since we now have shaders (which we didn't when the original blink effect was being done), why not apply a 25-50% transparent shader to the fade model (like how the Shade cloak gives a semi-transparent white glow to all cloaked structures)? I think that would solve much of the tracking issue, while still preserving the visual distinction between fades blinking/not blinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1957760:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:01 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 5 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since we now have shaders (which we didn't when the original blink effect was being done), why not apply a 25-50% transparent shader to the fade model (like how the Shade cloak gives a semi-transparent white glow to all cloaked structures)? I think that would solve much of the tracking issue, while still preserving the visual distinction between fades blinking/not blinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup, this is also a better option (though I would rather a much higher transparency).
<!--quoteo(post=1957752:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 5 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still waiting for your answer to my question, tweadle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Does anyone else feel like I haven't answered it? It feels like I'm banging my head against a wall.
A nice shader on the model, some smoky particles and voilà .
What I'd like is to have blink and shadow step merged. Each time I play with shadow step I think "damn hitting shift so much hurts my pinkie, it would be nice if it was on mouse 2 instead".
Then a new player was like "hey yuuki, how do you do to blink? it does nothing when I press mouse 2!", and me "hu I'm not blinking, ok it looks like blink, does the same, but it's not blink, use your shift key!"
<!--quoteo(post=1957787:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 5 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone else feel like I haven't answered it? It feels like I'm banging my head against a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@Tweadle: Look, what you want is a combination of a skulk and a lerk that needs energy to fly. Very boring. Also you know that there is a goal of making NS2 immerse. That they don't want to make a Quake3 without textures. I'm all with you that gameplay > graphics. But a hovering, fully visible fade? Srsly? This would look so retarded. I can't think of any way, this would look good. I don't even see a problem in having difficulties to actually track the fade. It is to difficult right now(!) and it even may have to much health. But ironhorse has pointed out how it could be solved, without striping the last cool bit of the night crawler ability from it. Even making it 200% more vulnerable while blinking, may be a solution. You should depend on being fast and unhitable. The visual appearance helps to achieve this, but is to much in its implementation right now.
On topic: dePara said already that the fade is nerved on HBZ servers and it doesn't do harm to it. It is a deadly slaughtering machine and it has to be, because it is 50res to buy. But in good hands, it sure is op right now.
Also shadow step is redundant with blink. Remove it. Give fade blink from the start and another ability for 2nd hive research.
Also a deadly counter would be good. Flamer anyone? No blink while burning sounds to harsh. But an actual useful energy drain while burning, so he can only blink for a short way, would be enough to allow marines to finish it off.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
If their reason for keeping the current blink mechanics is that they want it to look cool, they've failed. Shadowstep looks awesome because it's fully "nightcrawler'd", but the hovering orb makes blink look silly. I think this is a case where you have to go all the way (aesthetics > gameplay) or none of the way (aesthetics < gameplay). Since we already have shadowstep which looks great, I don't see why we can't also have a blink that doesn't look as awesome, but plays great.
As I've suggested in previous threads, the Fade should be like this: Weapon 1: Swipe Weapon 1 alternate: Blink (NS1 model but with animations that make it look better) Weapon 2: Shadowstep. Weapon 3: Vortex.
This would solve the problem with hive 1 aliens being almost completely useless against jetpacks, while keeping the "woah that's cool" effects of shadowstep.
Okay, for those who doesn't like rants the TL;DR: is quite in unison of this thread. At least what I get is the general: "Fades are cool the way they are, they should just be implemented a bit differently either through nerfs or visually". First: I read the thread, but I might haven't picked up a few things. Second: I am a Biscuiteer. If it wasn't for the Halibut channel, I wouldn't have found this awesome game So I haven't been around for long and if you are sensitive to that. Just... Please ignore this and spare yourself some but-clenching. Third: I am going to rationalize something which should probably not be rationalized. A quote I can't find also promised that the owner of the quote would kill anyone if they did... But I am going to risk it anyway.
<b>Warning Long!</b> The Rant: Fades are awesome... Because they are so easy. It requires no skill to play one and it is easy to kill a bunch of marines even for a beginner. Good ones manage to kill entire team spawns after spawn after spawn after ... etc. Some extraordinaire Fade players even manage to take out entire bases solo just because the marines just can't counter a Fade. This makes it sometimes too cumbersome for marines just to fend them off. In my three days of gameplay on both sides I have seen many leave the server just because a Fade hoard was imminent or is just a few are raping group after group of soldiers who try to defend a resource tower away from base even with a "Phase gate".
Now, the game plays in an era in which "Phasing" is possible... a derivative of warping I assume. Whenever I play as a marine and see my infantry portal charge up, it really looks like it needs loads of energy to phase/warp me in. Given the fact that I am a human, with kilograms of equipment probably coming from a safe base far away, I wouldn't be surprised. Even the most realistic and optimistic looks in the crystal ball concerning warping or "Phasing" says it still requires loads of energy.
The Fade has somehow evolved the ability to do somewhat the same thing. Fades gained the ability to enter some sub-dimensional realm I will refer to as Limbo. Here comes the point of this rant: How does a <a href="http://i1-games.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Natural-Selection-2-Fade-Reveal-Trailer_6.jpg" target="_blank">Fade with dimensions and size of a human</a> but in total heavier than a marine when taking the amount of hitpoints into account against a fully upgraded marine, draw its energy from? How does a Fade, which has in the current build loads of life and armor half of that of an Onos with the right traits, still being able to drop in and out of Limbo without tiring and still have the metabolic energy to regenerate damaged tissue on such a short notice? Without having to cool down whatever gland they are using to achieve such a feat. Without needing a massive pool of energy to get their body in and out of <u>an other dimension</u>. A Fade sure doesn't look like it has a build-in powernode or massive energy producing organs.
If you don't want to nerf anything about the Fade, make it possible for the marines to cancel out the Fade's ability to Blink back into Limbo once it dropped out or just tear them out of Limbo when a machine or explosion distort that dimensional plane. Like the Vortex of a Fade can render grenade explosions and entire bases useless. It doesn't have to be a stationary sentry (read: not one-time-use), it can also be a re-textured mine which triggers on energy signatures. Let it be kill-able by other aliens without the mine hurting them so that Fades can come in and play as well. I think it is reasonable in an age where humans have developed Phasing-technology that can transport humans and machines from a large distance, that they also found ways to counter Phasing as well. It can even be double edged: whenever this mine explodes nearby phase gates or infantry portals that they will also go offline for a period of time. Whenever it is a stationary weapon (read: re-usable)... let the vortex hit it hard, even damage them. That way Fades need to act quick to escape an imminent death. Still giving prepared marines time to kill the most dumbest of Fades and for unprepared marines to get their resources waste away. I can only assume these things cost a lot to produce.
In my opinion a Fade is an assassin class. They should plan their attack, especially, their line of approach, see the window of opportunity, go in, kill, get out, rinse and repeat. Not just go in, blink randomly while getting kill after kill, and after a few hits get out to regenerate to get back in again. Whenever a Fade is stupid enough to frontal approach a group of marines... They should die horribly for it. Right now it is just get close, swipe your blades 2 times and get the kills. While the marines are pumping the Fade full bullet after bullet, where the Fade's speed and eternal blinking make it seem it needs more magazines worth of bullets or shotgun shells than one marine can carry to kill one fade. Whereas the reloading time is even enough for a Fade to kill several marines. Half the hitpoints of an onos + speed is worth a lot of bullets, in some cases even more than an onos should be killed with. In my ideal form of a Fade that should only happen when a marine is stupid enough to go out alone... Then the marine needs to be punished and should be easily slaughtered by frontal attack by a Fade.
For those thinking about Fades costing loads of resources and therefore should have the potential k/d efficiency out of it! I agree, but think about wherein these resource have to go: A new Fade needs to evolve/develop an ability/organ/brain/whatever so complex that it is able to get in and out of Limbo on command and still have enough energy to get it going. I am sure that alone requires lots of energy and/or "resources" to create. Just like the Onos requires lots of resource to create their mass. The Fade shouldn't be developing into more armor and health which equals to half an onos equaling to more weight to bring into Limbo. You are still able to get the same k/d ratio, I am sure of that, you just have to plan more and be smarter, sneakier than Fades tend to be played right now. Hide until the marines pass by and attack from behind and get off... A more Guerrilla-type of gameplay. Right now I have to be sneakier with a Skulk than a Fade to win a kill where the Fade should be the Assassin of the two... just saying. The Fade should not be the speed-tank of eternal blinks... leave the tanking to the Onos. Leave the hunter/pack attacks to the Skulks. Leave the "being fast with a small hitbox" to the Lerks. If you don't want to give the marines more gadgets to play with... Nerf the Fade down to be that: an Assassin, at its best with the element of surprise and able to get out when it gets hot under their asses. So what would their advantage be over a Skulk, well their speed. their hard-to-hit-hitboxes and bad visibility when in Limbo. Their ability to get in and out of the battlefield, land a few surgical strikes and get out to charge up for the next attack near a tactically placed Crag or supporting Gorge.
Now, I am aware that the exoskeleton is coming for the marines. And I know a good shotgun-ner with jetpacks can take out a Fade with either luck or loads of skill. Flamethrowers are good weapons as they are now as well... But most of the time they don't tend to kill a Fade. Indeed, A Fade shouldn't be killed by a single flamethrower or one shotgun-jetpackiteer.
Also, I am not all against the Fade. In fact I love them for being in the game: The damage output: Keep it! It has pointy bladed claws/arms/things to begin with, it should damage as such. I would probably instantly die when one of those things get smashed inside a body with low armor. Their speed inside limbo: Keep it! it is a different dimension anyway, so why should the same laws of physics apply there as well. Their visual for marines outside Limbo: Keep it! Like I said above, it is another dimension anyway!
Now you want some good suggestions for a nerf or else this last rant was just for nothing: (<b>TL;DR: -ish</b>) - Although I picked up a nerf in life/armor doesn't really affect much, however, it should be made so that in Limbo or outside Limbo a Fade shouldn't survive a frontal attack on a group of marines. Make a hitbox that will hurt more when the bullets get in from the front. This way a Fade can pass through a corridor gaining a better position circling around the marines without being killed. But should it make it the mistake of just charging in from a long corridor... the Fade has to be killable. - Make the energy usage cost of Blink cost more. Make it impossible even with traits to just eternally blink. Let it have a cooldown of a second or 2. Anything to make it more plausible that transporting that entire Fade as it is now into 2 dimensional planes does something to the Fade itself and not being a godly power of doom and despair. - Give marines the ability to block the Blink if you don't want to the Fade to be changed in any form. Let the marines feel at least save from uncoordinated attacks of random Fades. Yet make them shiver when a Gorge/Skulk/Onos takes out the defenses against the blinkers. (Exoskeletons don't count as such)
Not sure about your accusation that I want a skulerk with energy flight. Is that how you felt the fade was in NS1? Anyway, I actually think your idea of taking <i>more</i> damage in blink is interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1958212:date=Aug 6 2012, 07:32 PM:name=Scriblon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scriblon @ Aug 6 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are awesome... Because they are so easy. It requires no skill to play one and it is easy to kill a bunch of marines even for a beginner. Good ones manage to kill entire team spawns after spawn after spawn after ... etc. Some extraordinaire Fade players even manage to take out entire bases solo just because the marines just can't counter a Fade. This makes it sometimes too cumbersome for marines just to fend them off. In my three days of gameplay on both sides I have seen many leave the server just because a Fade hoard was imminent or is just a few are raping group after group of soldiers who try to defend a resource tower away from base even with a "Phase gate".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This problem is pretty fundamental and I'm glad you picked up on it so quickly - that should say something to others. You've got layers of factors here; that fades are too easy to play, that fades are too hard to kill (similar), that fades come in waves and that people don't like playing against the fade. Fades being too easy to play would be solved with higher energy costs coupled with more momentum for blink. Fades being hard to kill is very closely linked to them being pretty impossible to see but also stems from their ease of use. Redesigning the blink animation to be more representative of view-direction would be an improvement and a fully fledged model would be a cure. That fades come in waves is a more deeply rooted problem. I still think that there needs to be more res-sinks and, because making the choice to lifeform is so obvious, you have to design the fade around a very different set of parameters. [It's similar situation with personal weapons where giving a shotgun too much 'oomph' is too potent but 'oomph' is what is satisfying - this is endemic of the fact that purchasing things is separated from the main economy.] When you combine all these factors, you hav,e not only a fade that is frustrating to play against, but a fade that is highly abundant and potentially very powerful with little skill, especially against nooblets. The irony is that they become effectively useless in average hands versus jetpacks (moving blink to hive1 would solve this).
Whatever you do, please do not bring back the fully visible flying fade from NS1. It's bad enough we have the ball effect and vulnerability now. I want to teleport around like nightcrawler with swords taped to his wrists.
I'd much rather buff flamethrowers and/or add some other marine counter, such as exo's railgun or an activated no-blink-zone obs upgrade, than to see the Fade reduced to a shell of what he was meant to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1958225:date=Aug 6 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This problem is pretty fundamental and I'm glad you picked up on it so quickly - that should say something to others. You've got layers of factors here; that fades are too easy to play, that fades are too hard to kill (similar), that fades come in waves and that people don't like playing against the fade. Fades being too easy to play would be solved with higher energy costs coupled with more momentum for blink. Fades being hard to kill is very closely linked to them being pretty impossible to see but also stems from their ease of use. Redesigning the blink animation to be more representative of view-direction would be an improvement and a fully fledged model would be a cure. That fades come in waves is a more deeply rooted problem. I still think that there needs to be more res-sinks and that making the choice to lifeform so obvious means that you have to design the fade around a very different set of parameters. It's similar with personal weapons where giving a shotgun too much 'oomph' can create spiralling problems because it has no effect on the main economy. When you combine all these factors, you have not only a fade that is frustrating to play against but a fade that is highly abundant and potentially very powerful with little skill, especially against nooblets. The irony is that they become effectively useless in average hands versus jetpacks (moving blink to hive1 would solve this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, true soooooo true. The problem main problem that i have laways tought of was the res system, that emphasizes lifeform wawe playstyle. When RT, chamber, hive res dumps were taken away from ns1 gameplay it fruthermore lures players to evolve to that nasty fade, especially in public play. I have also always tought it is an gamebreaker.
I would love to see that they would even try to bring back the fade momentum carrying movement style. In experienced hands current fade is SO forgiving and powerful at the same time.
I refuse to believe that a good looking fade animation is incompatible with more visibility and information.
<!--quoteo(post=1958232:date=Aug 6 2012, 08:29 PM:name=sebu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sebu @ Aug 6 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, true soooooo true. The problem main problem that i have laways tought of was the res system, that emphasizes lifeform wawe playstyle. When RT, chamber, hive res dumps were taken away from ns1 gameplay it fruthermore lures players to evolve to that nasty fade, especially in public play. I have also always tought it is an gamebreaker.
I would love to see that they would even try to bring back the fade momentum carrying movement style. In experienced hands current fade is SO forgiving and powerful at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, Charlie even acknowledged the tech explosion issue (though not everyone believes it is one) but his only response so far has been to punish people for dying by denying them resource flow. This response is pretty negligible and, quite frankly, inferior to the RFK model. The snowballing issue, that he was so keen to avoid rfk for, still exists in his reverse implementation only now the system feels negative rather than rewarding, is more confusing than rfk, has less effect than even a modest rfk and is more random than rfk.
*edit* forgot to mention that rfk was deemed as counter-productive to resource scaling but the same complaint applies to rfd
<!--quoteo(post=1958235:date=Aug 6 2012, 01:36 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, Charlie even acknowledged the tech explosion issue (though not everyone believes it is one) but his only response so far has been to punish people for dying by denying them resource flow. This response is pretty negligible and, quite frankly, inferior to the RFK model. The snowballing issue, that he was so keen to avoid rfk for, still exists in his reverse implementation only now the system feels negative rather than rewarding, is more confusing than rfk, has less effect than even a modest rfk and is more random than rfk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely hate the RFD system, they should remove xenocide if they insist on keeping it. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1958235:date=Aug 6 2012, 02:36 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, Charlie even acknowledged the tech explosion issue (though not everyone believes it is one) but his only response so far has been to punish people for dying by denying them resource flow. This response is pretty negligible and, quite frankly, inferior to the RFK model. The snowballing issue, that he was so keen to avoid rfk for, still exists in his reverse implementation only now the system feels negative rather than rewarding, is more confusing than rfk, has less effect than even a modest rfk and is more random than rfk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep. But really? Everyone doesn't see that as a long lasting problem? Since the new res flow was introduced i saw immediately there was a gamebreaking problem in the air whit the tech distribution on alien team adn have been scrunching my teeth ever since.
I guess the charlies plan was to go along whit it and he tought that hell overcome it whit somewhat easy solution, but it hasnt been proven to be so. And the punish per death doesn't solve anything, because the backbone of RFK supports the snowballing so heavily.
But what you gonna do? if the Gorge res dumps are nullified there is no specific way that is VITAL to invest your res in in the early/early-mid game.
TBH the tech snowball is still rolling strong. Sadly i dont even see it stopping anytime soon... :(
<!--quoteo(post=1958225:date=Aug 6 2012, 08:12 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 6 2012, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(snip) The irony is that they become effectively useless in average hands versus jetpacks (moving blink to hive1 would solve this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I can't really reply to the current discussion because of my recent join date. Also have the feeling I need to find a post with commonly used acronyms... But I can say something about the quote. It is the arms race which is an prominent theme and important factor to success. Or at least that is what i found. So, When the marines go out in jet packs go with the lurk and spikes. Althought I haven't got much experiences to back this up yet. Still, I have successfully taken jet packers down with spikes while hiding in a corner...
I just love Hypermutation to adjust to marine tactics.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957787:date=Aug 5 2012, 12:34 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Aug 5 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957787"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone else feel like I haven't answered it? It feels like I'm banging my head against a wall.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you haven't answer it, as i clearly said in my reply, but here i'll say it again:
<!--quoteo(post=1957274:date=Aug 4 2012, 02:49 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 4 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it doesn't? You are only addressing where the night crawler approach has failed and that this is a reason for implementing full visibility, not actually providing a reason on why full visibility should be used over any of the other "plurality if ways"??
Thats what I'm looking for. Not talking about whats wrong currently, you know I agree with you there (as well as the free swipe that is unavoidable)<b> but why full visibility over the other methods? </b>What does it bring? Sure easier tracking, but also a higher entrance of use (noobs get gunned down entering rooms like lerks do because they wont bob or weave.)
Im not accusing nostalgia of being the motivator again, I'm just concerned it is after the mutual understanding of the other options being on the table.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good start to balancing aliens would be to restrict evolutions to one per hive upgrade type (either cara or regen, not both). Yeah it's another change reverting back to NS1 but it makes sense.
Not sure how to balance fades, but they are clearly imbalanced atm.
There seems to be no disadvantage to almost the entire team going fade - which is not something you want in a class based game. Its made worse when they have feint. Basically immortal with blink.
That fact that so many fades will stay "unblinked" in front of half the marine teams fire, means they are way too tough. They feel like they should be the ninajas, and rapid defenders. Lone marine killing a harvester - no problem with a fade to save it. Big assault - zip the fades in while onos soaks up damage.
Possible changes: - Make feint disable alt fire for 10 seconds. No leap, healspray, blink, stomp or gas. Feint then becomes useful only when friends take the pressure off. Fades still have shadowstep, onos still have charge, gorges still have slide to escape. - Increase blink momentum and make slower on initial entry. - Reduce fade health a tad. - Change adrenaline so not training wheels for fades. I personally want it to be energy gain when fade takes damage.
I dont see too big problems with fades, other than i would like to see shadowstep as hive 2 and blink as hive 1 ability. (so you are not ###### by having hive 1 fades vs jetpacks)
It takes quite a while to get fades, if the marines dont get their upgrades and weapons by that time to properly fight fades its only fair that they have a hard time.
I see the problem with fades more in the leap + cara skulks that might be a tiny bit too strong. (since you need more focus to deal with the fades while skulks work on your rts or whatever[1v1 against cara leap skulk is heavily in favor of the skulk if you dont have a shotgun])
The GameJoin Date: 2012-08-06Member: 154872Members
Agree with most of the posts here regarding the current blink mechanic, needs to cost more for starters.
I think an across the board regeneration nerf would be good, couple that with a nerf (though not much) to Fade HP to say 205/215 and Carapace /w Gorge buddy will become much more prevalent and viable, currently I only ever see Gorges in the Alien base or bile-bombing during the final rush.
As for dealing with Fades, as most have said, with a shotgun and some upgrades it's doable, but if the fade is skilled your chances are numbered
Best tip for people having trouble with Fades (and Onos' for that matter): When you see it running, chase it down quickly and kill it before it dissapears.
<!--quoteo(post=1958273:date=Aug 7 2012, 08:02 AM:name=rhez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ Aug 7 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good start to balancing aliens would be to restrict evolutions to one per hive upgrade type (either cara or regen, not both). Yeah it's another change reverting back to NS1 but it makes sense.
Also bring back focus please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> AN alien can only select either cara or regen with one hive currently.
Or are you suggesting that you should not be able to research both tech tree options until you get a second hive (ie cara one hive, regen the next)? If that is what your suggesting sorry it aint going to happen, they are already grouped based on shift, shade and crag. Each has sub branches that can be researched.
As in my earlier comment aliens are limited to how many upgrades based on the number of hives (so 2 hives allows cara and regen when 1 hive offers only either or not both).
<!--quoteo(post=1958399:date=Aug 6 2012, 10:16 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Aug 6 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->AN alien can only select either cara or regen with one hive currently.
Or are you suggesting that you should not be able to research both tech tree options until you get a second hive (ie cara one hive, regen the next)? If that is what your suggesting sorry it aint going to happen, they are already grouped based on shift, shade and crag. Each has sub branches that can be researched.
As in my earlier comment aliens are limited to how many upgrades based on the number of hives (so 2 hives allows cara and regen when 1 hive offers only either or not both).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, what he's saying is that currently if you have carapace and regen researched at 1 hive, you can take one or the other. At two hives, you can have both: regen and carapace. That is, you can take a second evolution even from the same tech path.
However, in NS1 you could only have 1 upgrade from each tech path. Once the second hive went up and you got another tech path going (say defense chamber and movement chamber) then you could have one upgrade from each, say regen and celerity, but you <b>could not</b> double up on one tech path. You could not take both carapace and regen.
We're largely reusing balance values from NS1 (damage, HP, armor, etc.), which were designed around having cara or regen, but now in NS2 we can have both. This has to be examined carefully (this combination in particular as they're the most directly relevant to combat), for balance concerns.
I've been looking forward to trying out limiting upgrades to 1 per type of hive. IE carapace OR regen, but not both. One of the biggest problems with alien's being so strong in the mid-late game boils down to cara + regen being too powerful on the fade.
I'm not sure how it would play, though. It might gives too much advantage to marines in the mid game which would kill aliens who already struggle to survive through the early game.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1958430:date=Aug 7 2012, 04:09 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 7 2012, 04:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been looking forward to trying out limiting upgrades to 1 per type of hive. IE carapace OR regen, but not both. One of the biggest problems with alien's being so strong in the mid-late game boils down to cara + regen being too powerful on the fade.
I'm not sure how it would play, though. It might gives too much advantage to marines in the mid game which would kill aliens who already struggle to survive through the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sure on Pub servers you wont see a huge different. I play without cara most of the time, cause i didnt like the speedpenalty. I thought adrenalin is the biggest problem right now cause nonstop blinking, its more like flying with it. But i forgot it to take some days ago. 46-6 as an fade without cara + adrenalin. In scrims or gathers for sure you wont stay alive with this combination.
In my opinion there different reasons for the "fade-op" right now: - Adrenalin needs an closer look (nonstop bilebombing gorges are problem also) - Regeneration kicks in to fast (healing gorges are nearly useless most of the time) - HP reduction to 200 might help (with 220 on our servers i cant see a huge different to 250)
<!--quoteo(post=1958424:date=Aug 6 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 6 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, what he's saying is that currently if you have carapace and regen researched at 1 hive, you can take one or the other. At two hives, you can have both: regen and carapace. That is, you can take a second evolution even from the same tech path.
However, in NS1 you could only have 1 upgrade from each tech path. Once the second hive went up and you got another tech path going (say defense chamber and movement chamber) then you could have one upgrade from each, say regen and celerity, but you <b>could not</b> double up on one tech path. You could not take both carapace and regen.
We're largely reusing balance values from NS1 (damage, HP, armor, etc.), which were designed around having cara or regen, but now in NS2 we can have both. This has to be examined carefully (this combination in particular as they're the most directly relevant to combat), for balance concerns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. However, remember in NS1 when you built a chamber, you got all 3 of the upgrades made available (3 chambers to max effectiveness). Now the Khammander has to research them one-by-one on unique structures, but often only nabs 1 or 2 for effectively lower cost. So, yay opportunity costs.
I'd be interested in seeing how locked down upgrades per path would work out. Although as a Fade I typically run Regen + Cele/Adren, so it wouldn't change my build.
I really think now that there is an easy solution.
The fade should not go head on with more than two marines, because he is an assassin. So the solution:<ul><li>move the glowing ball while blinking in the middle of the model, so he is easier to hit.</li><li>make the fade 200% vulnerable while blinking</li><li>remove shadow step, make blink hive1</li><li>fix the flamer so that he is a hard counter to the fade because of energy drain (the flamer is broken with adrenaline right now!)</li></ul>
There is no need to cut down the health of the fade again. This leads to paper-fades. We got this already. The fade should endure some shots. But he should play like an assassin. NOT moving frontal with blink into a group of marines. Points above fixes that. With this, if you don't play the fade sneaky, you are dead meat. Also you can't escape so easy anymore.
I second the above poster. Fades shouldn't be one man armies. They're ruining matches right now as it is, and making every other alien class completely obsolete. Sure, they cost a lot of res, but not enough to essentially turn on god mode. Maybe once flamethrowers become an actual hard counter to Fades, will we not see the entire enemy team going fade. I'd love for them to be actual sneaky ninjas, as opposed to what they are right now. I'm more of an alien fan but, I find myself trying to play Marine more often simply because of how overpowered they feel...cheapens any win.
Comments
Glad theres Consensus at least on how to better implement the visuals should they stay..
Yup, this is also a better option (though I would rather a much higher transparency).
<!--quoteo(post=1957752:date=Aug 5 2012, 07:38 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 5 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still waiting for your answer to my question, tweadle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does anyone else feel like I haven't answered it? It feels like I'm banging my head against a wall.
What I'd like is to have blink and shadow step merged. Each time I play with shadow step I think "damn hitting shift so much hurts my pinkie, it would be nice if it was on mouse 2 instead".
Then a new player was like "hey yuuki, how do you do to blink? it does nothing when I press mouse 2!", and me "hu I'm not blinking, ok it looks like blink, does the same, but it's not blink, use your shift key!"
lol @ avatar change
I don't even see a problem in having difficulties to actually track the fade. It is to difficult right now(!) and it even may have to much health. But ironhorse has pointed out how it could be solved, without striping the last cool bit of the night crawler ability from it. Even making it 200% more vulnerable while blinking, may be a solution. You should depend on being fast and unhitable. The visual appearance helps to achieve this, but is to much in its implementation right now.
On topic:
dePara said already that the fade is nerved on HBZ servers and it doesn't do harm to it. It is a deadly slaughtering machine and it has to be, because it is 50res to buy. But in good hands, it sure is op right now.
Also shadow step is redundant with blink. Remove it. Give fade blink from the start and another ability for 2nd hive research.
Also a deadly counter would be good. Flamer anyone? No blink while burning sounds to harsh. But an actual useful energy drain while burning, so he can only blink for a short way, would be enough to allow marines to finish it off.
As I've suggested in previous threads, the Fade should be like this:
Weapon 1: Swipe
Weapon 1 alternate: Blink (NS1 model but with animations that make it look better)
Weapon 2: Shadowstep.
Weapon 3: Vortex.
This would solve the problem with hive 1 aliens being almost completely useless against jetpacks, while keeping the "woah that's cool" effects of shadowstep.
First: I read the thread, but I might haven't picked up a few things.
Second: I am a Biscuiteer. If it wasn't for the Halibut channel, I wouldn't have found this awesome game So I haven't been around for long and if you are sensitive to that. Just... Please ignore this and spare yourself some but-clenching.
Third: I am going to rationalize something which should probably not be rationalized. A quote I can't find also promised that the owner of the quote would kill anyone if they did... But I am going to risk it anyway.
<b>Warning Long!</b>
The Rant:
Fades are awesome... Because they are so easy. It requires no skill to play one and it is easy to kill a bunch of marines even for a beginner. Good ones manage to kill entire team spawns after spawn after spawn after ... etc. Some extraordinaire Fade players even manage to take out entire bases solo just because the marines just can't counter a Fade. This makes it sometimes too cumbersome for marines just to fend them off. In my three days of gameplay on both sides I have seen many leave the server just because a Fade hoard was imminent or is just a few are raping group after group of soldiers who try to defend a resource tower away from base even with a "Phase gate".
Now, the game plays in an era in which "Phasing" is possible... a derivative of warping I assume. Whenever I play as a marine and see my infantry portal charge up, it really looks like it needs loads of energy to phase/warp me in. Given the fact that I am a human, with kilograms of equipment probably coming from a safe base far away, I wouldn't be surprised. Even the most realistic and optimistic looks in the crystal ball concerning warping or "Phasing" says it still requires loads of energy.
The Fade has somehow evolved the ability to do somewhat the same thing. Fades gained the ability to enter some sub-dimensional realm I will refer to as Limbo. Here comes the point of this rant: How does a <a href="http://i1-games.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Natural-Selection-2-Fade-Reveal-Trailer_6.jpg" target="_blank">Fade with dimensions and size of a human</a> but in total heavier than a marine when taking the amount of hitpoints into account against a fully upgraded marine, draw its energy from?
How does a Fade, which has in the current build loads of life and armor half of that of an Onos with the right traits, still being able to drop in and out of Limbo without tiring and still have the metabolic energy to regenerate damaged tissue on such a short notice? Without having to cool down whatever gland they are using to achieve such a feat. Without needing a massive pool of energy to get their body in and out of <u>an other dimension</u>. A Fade sure doesn't look like it has a build-in powernode or massive energy producing organs.
If you don't want to nerf anything about the Fade, make it possible for the marines to cancel out the Fade's ability to Blink back into Limbo once it dropped out or just tear them out of Limbo when a machine or explosion distort that dimensional plane. Like the Vortex of a Fade can render grenade explosions and entire bases useless. It doesn't have to be a stationary sentry (read: not one-time-use), it can also be a re-textured mine which triggers on energy signatures. Let it be kill-able by other aliens without the mine hurting them so that Fades can come in and play as well.
I think it is reasonable in an age where humans have developed Phasing-technology that can transport humans and machines from a large distance, that they also found ways to counter Phasing as well. It can even be double edged: whenever this mine explodes nearby phase gates or infantry portals that they will also go offline for a period of time.
Whenever it is a stationary weapon (read: re-usable)... let the vortex hit it hard, even damage them. That way Fades need to act quick to escape an imminent death. Still giving prepared marines time to kill the most dumbest of Fades and for unprepared marines to get their resources waste away. I can only assume these things cost a lot to produce.
In my opinion a Fade is an assassin class. They should plan their attack, especially, their line of approach, see the window of opportunity, go in, kill, get out, rinse and repeat. Not just go in, blink randomly while getting kill after kill, and after a few hits get out to regenerate to get back in again. Whenever a Fade is stupid enough to frontal approach a group of marines... They should die horribly for it. Right now it is just get close, swipe your blades 2 times and get the kills. While the marines are pumping the Fade full bullet after bullet, where the Fade's speed and eternal blinking make it seem it needs more magazines worth of bullets or shotgun shells than one marine can carry to kill one fade. Whereas the reloading time is even enough for a Fade to kill several marines. Half the hitpoints of an onos + speed is worth a lot of bullets, in some cases even more than an onos should be killed with.
In my ideal form of a Fade that should only happen when a marine is stupid enough to go out alone... Then the marine needs to be punished and should be easily slaughtered by frontal attack by a Fade.
For those thinking about Fades costing loads of resources and therefore should have the potential k/d efficiency out of it! I agree, but think about wherein these resource have to go: A new Fade needs to evolve/develop an ability/organ/brain/whatever so complex that it is able to get in and out of Limbo on command and still have enough energy to get it going. I am sure that alone requires lots of energy and/or "resources" to create. Just like the Onos requires lots of resource to create their mass. The Fade shouldn't be developing into more armor and health which equals to half an onos equaling to more weight to bring into Limbo.
You are still able to get the same k/d ratio, I am sure of that, you just have to plan more and be smarter, sneakier than Fades tend to be played right now. Hide until the marines pass by and attack from behind and get off... A more Guerrilla-type of gameplay. Right now I have to be sneakier with a Skulk than a Fade to win a kill where the Fade should be the Assassin of the two... just saying.
The Fade should not be the speed-tank of eternal blinks... leave the tanking to the Onos. Leave the hunter/pack attacks to the Skulks. Leave the "being fast with a small hitbox" to the Lerks. If you don't want to give the marines more gadgets to play with... Nerf the Fade down to be that: an Assassin, at its best with the element of surprise and able to get out when it gets hot under their asses.
So what would their advantage be over a Skulk, well their speed. their hard-to-hit-hitboxes and bad visibility when in Limbo. Their ability to get in and out of the battlefield, land a few surgical strikes and get out to charge up for the next attack near a tactically placed Crag or supporting Gorge.
Now, I am aware that the exoskeleton is coming for the marines. And I know a good shotgun-ner with jetpacks can take out a Fade with either luck or loads of skill. Flamethrowers are good weapons as they are now as well... But most of the time they don't tend to kill a Fade. Indeed, A Fade shouldn't be killed by a single flamethrower or one shotgun-jetpackiteer.
Also, I am not all against the Fade. In fact I love them for being in the game:
The damage output: Keep it! It has pointy bladed claws/arms/things to begin with, it should damage as such. I would probably instantly die when one of those things get smashed inside a body with low armor.
Their speed inside limbo: Keep it! it is a different dimension anyway, so why should the same laws of physics apply there as well.
Their visual for marines outside Limbo: Keep it! Like I said above, it is another dimension anyway!
Now you want some good suggestions for a nerf or else this last rant was just for nothing: (<b>TL;DR: -ish</b>)
- Although I picked up a nerf in life/armor doesn't really affect much, however, it should be made so that in Limbo or outside Limbo a Fade shouldn't survive a frontal attack on a group of marines. Make a hitbox that will hurt more when the bullets get in from the front. This way a Fade can pass through a corridor gaining a better position circling around the marines without being killed. But should it make it the mistake of just charging in from a long corridor... the Fade has to be killable.
- Make the energy usage cost of Blink cost more. Make it impossible even with traits to just eternally blink. Let it have a cooldown of a second or 2. Anything to make it more plausible that transporting that entire Fade as it is now into 2 dimensional planes does something to the Fade itself and not being a godly power of doom and despair.
- Give marines the ability to block the Blink if you don't want to the Fade to be changed in any form. Let the marines feel at least save from uncoordinated attacks of random Fades. Yet make them shiver when a Gorge/Skulk/Onos takes out the defenses against the blinkers. (Exoskeletons don't count as such)
Thank you for reading.
Not sure about your accusation that I want a skulerk with energy flight. Is that how you felt the fade was in NS1? Anyway, I actually think your idea of taking <i>more</i> damage in blink is interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1958212:date=Aug 6 2012, 07:32 PM:name=Scriblon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scriblon @ Aug 6 2012, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are awesome... Because they are so easy. It requires no skill to play one and it is easy to kill a bunch of marines even for a beginner. Good ones manage to kill entire team spawns after spawn after spawn after ... etc. Some extraordinaire Fade players even manage to take out entire bases solo just because the marines just can't counter a Fade. This makes it sometimes too cumbersome for marines just to fend them off. In my three days of gameplay on both sides I have seen many leave the server just because a Fade hoard was imminent or is just a few are raping group after group of soldiers who try to defend a resource tower away from base even with a "Phase gate".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This problem is pretty fundamental and I'm glad you picked up on it so quickly - that should say something to others. You've got layers of factors here; that fades are too easy to play, that fades are too hard to kill (similar), that fades come in waves and that people don't like playing against the fade. Fades being too easy to play would be solved with higher energy costs coupled with more momentum for blink. Fades being hard to kill is very closely linked to them being pretty impossible to see but also stems from their ease of use. Redesigning the blink animation to be more representative of view-direction would be an improvement and a fully fledged model would be a cure. That fades come in waves is a more deeply rooted problem. I still think that there needs to be more res-sinks and, because making the choice to lifeform is so obvious, you have to design the fade around a very different set of parameters. [It's similar situation with personal weapons where giving a shotgun too much 'oomph' is too potent but 'oomph' is what is satisfying - this is endemic of the fact that purchasing things is separated from the main economy.] When you combine all these factors, you hav,e not only a fade that is frustrating to play against, but a fade that is highly abundant and potentially very powerful with little skill, especially against nooblets. The irony is that they become effectively useless in average hands versus jetpacks (moving blink to hive1 would solve this).
I'd much rather buff flamethrowers and/or add some other marine counter, such as exo's railgun or an activated no-blink-zone obs upgrade, than to see the Fade reduced to a shell of what he was meant to be.
True, true soooooo true. The problem main problem that i have laways tought of was the res system, that emphasizes lifeform wawe playstyle. When RT, chamber, hive res dumps were taken away from ns1 gameplay it fruthermore lures players to evolve to that nasty fade, especially in public play. I have also always tought it is an gamebreaker.
I would love to see that they would even try to bring back the fade momentum carrying movement style. In experienced hands current fade is SO forgiving and powerful at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1958232:date=Aug 6 2012, 08:29 PM:name=sebu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sebu @ Aug 6 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958232"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, true soooooo true. The problem main problem that i have laways tought of was the res system, that emphasizes lifeform wawe playstyle. When RT, chamber, hive res dumps were taken away from ns1 gameplay it fruthermore lures players to evolve to that nasty fade, especially in public play. I have also always tought it is an gamebreaker.
I would love to see that they would even try to bring back the fade momentum carrying movement style. In experienced hands current fade is SO forgiving and powerful at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, Charlie even acknowledged the tech explosion issue (though not everyone believes it is one) but his only response so far has been to punish people for dying by denying them resource flow. This response is pretty negligible and, quite frankly, inferior to the RFK model. The snowballing issue, that he was so keen to avoid rfk for, still exists in his reverse implementation only now the system feels negative rather than rewarding, is more confusing than rfk, has less effect than even a modest rfk and is more random than rfk.
*edit* forgot to mention that rfk was deemed as counter-productive to resource scaling but the same complaint applies to rfd
I absolutely hate the RFD system, they should remove xenocide if they insist on keeping it. :/
Yep. But really? Everyone doesn't see that as a long lasting problem? Since the new res flow was introduced i saw immediately there was a gamebreaking problem in the air whit the tech distribution on alien team adn have been scrunching my teeth ever since.
I guess the charlies plan was to go along whit it and he tought that hell overcome it whit somewhat easy solution, but it hasnt been proven to be so. And the punish per death doesn't solve anything, because the backbone of RFK supports the snowballing so heavily.
But what you gonna do? if the Gorge res dumps are nullified there is no specific way that is VITAL to invest your res in in the early/early-mid game.
TBH the tech snowball is still rolling strong. Sadly i dont even see it stopping anytime soon... :(
The irony is that they become effectively useless in average hands versus jetpacks (moving blink to hive1 would solve this).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although I can't really reply to the current discussion because of my recent join date. Also have the feeling I need to find a post with commonly used acronyms... But I can say something about the quote.
It is the arms race which is an prominent theme and important factor to success. Or at least that is what i found. So, When the marines go out in jet packs go with the lurk and spikes. Althought I haven't got much experiences to back this up yet. Still, I have successfully taken jet packers down with spikes while hiding in a corner...
I just love Hypermutation to adjust to marine tactics.
No, you haven't answer it, as i clearly said in my reply, but here i'll say it again:
<!--quoteo(post=1957274:date=Aug 4 2012, 02:49 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 4 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it doesn't?
You are only addressing where the night crawler approach has failed and that this is a reason for implementing full visibility, not actually providing a reason on why full visibility should be used over any of the other "plurality if ways"??
Thats what I'm looking for. Not talking about whats wrong currently, you know I agree with you there (as well as the free swipe that is unavoidable)<b> but why full visibility over the other methods? </b>What does it bring? Sure easier tracking, but also a higher entrance of use (noobs get gunned down entering rooms like lerks do because they wont bob or weave.)
Im not accusing nostalgia of being the motivator again, I'm just concerned it is after the mutual understanding of the other options being on the table.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also bring back focus please.
There seems to be no disadvantage to almost the entire team going fade - which is not something you want in a class based game. Its made worse when they have feint. Basically immortal with blink.
That fact that so many fades will stay "unblinked" in front of half the marine teams fire, means they are way too tough. They feel like they should be the ninajas, and rapid defenders. Lone marine killing a harvester - no problem with a fade to save it. Big assault - zip the fades in while onos soaks up damage.
Possible changes:
- Make feint disable alt fire for 10 seconds. No leap, healspray, blink, stomp or gas. Feint then becomes useful only when friends take the pressure off. Fades still have shadowstep, onos still have charge, gorges still have slide to escape.
- Increase blink momentum and make slower on initial entry.
- Reduce fade health a tad.
- Change adrenaline so not training wheels for fades. I personally want it to be energy gain when fade takes damage.
It takes quite a while to get fades, if the marines dont get their upgrades and weapons by that time to properly fight fades its only fair that they have a hard time.
I see the problem with fades more in the leap + cara skulks that might be a tiny bit too strong. (since you need more focus to deal with the fades while skulks work on your rts or whatever[1v1 against cara leap skulk is heavily in favor of the skulk if you dont have a shotgun])
I think an across the board regeneration nerf would be good, couple that with a nerf (though not much) to Fade HP to say 205/215 and Carapace /w Gorge buddy will become much more prevalent and viable, currently I only ever see Gorges in the Alien base or bile-bombing during the final rush.
As for dealing with Fades, as most have said, with a shotgun and some upgrades it's doable, but if the fade is skilled your chances are numbered
Best tip for people having trouble with Fades (and Onos' for that matter): When you see it running, chase it down quickly and kill it before it dissapears.
Also bring back focus please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AN alien can only select either cara or regen with one hive currently.
Or are you suggesting that you should not be able to research both tech tree options until you get a second hive (ie cara one hive, regen the next)? If that is what your suggesting sorry it aint going to happen, they are already grouped based on shift, shade and crag. Each has sub branches that can be researched.
As in my earlier comment aliens are limited to how many upgrades based on the number of hives (so 2 hives allows cara and regen when 1 hive offers only either or not both).
Or are you suggesting that you should not be able to research both tech tree options until you get a second hive (ie cara one hive, regen the next)? If that is what your suggesting sorry it aint going to happen, they are already grouped based on shift, shade and crag. Each has sub branches that can be researched.
As in my earlier comment aliens are limited to how many upgrades based on the number of hives (so 2 hives allows cara and regen when 1 hive offers only either or not both).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, what he's saying is that currently if you have carapace and regen researched at 1 hive, you can take one or the other. At two hives, you can have both: regen and carapace. That is, you can take a second evolution even from the same tech path.
However, in NS1 you could only have 1 upgrade from each tech path. Once the second hive went up and you got another tech path going (say defense chamber and movement chamber) then you could have one upgrade from each, say regen and celerity, but you <b>could not</b> double up on one tech path. You could not take both carapace and regen.
We're largely reusing balance values from NS1 (damage, HP, armor, etc.), which were designed around having cara or regen, but now in NS2 we can have both. This has to be examined carefully (this combination in particular as they're the most directly relevant to combat), for balance concerns.
I'm not sure how it would play, though. It might gives too much advantage to marines in the mid game which would kill aliens who already struggle to survive through the early game.
I'm not sure how it would play, though. It might gives too much advantage to marines in the mid game which would kill aliens who already struggle to survive through the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sure on Pub servers you wont see a huge different. I play without cara most of the time, cause i didnt like the speedpenalty.
I thought adrenalin is the biggest problem right now cause nonstop blinking, its more like flying with it. But i forgot it to take some days ago. 46-6 as an fade without cara + adrenalin.
In scrims or gathers for sure you wont stay alive with this combination.
In my opinion there different reasons for the "fade-op" right now:
- Adrenalin needs an closer look (nonstop bilebombing gorges are problem also)
- Regeneration kicks in to fast (healing gorges are nearly useless most of the time)
- HP reduction to 200 might help (with 220 on our servers i cant see a huge different to 250)
However, in NS1 you could only have 1 upgrade from each tech path. Once the second hive went up and you got another tech path going (say defense chamber and movement chamber) then you could have one upgrade from each, say regen and celerity, but you <b>could not</b> double up on one tech path. You could not take both carapace and regen.
We're largely reusing balance values from NS1 (damage, HP, armor, etc.), which were designed around having cara or regen, but now in NS2 we can have both. This has to be examined carefully (this combination in particular as they're the most directly relevant to combat), for balance concerns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. However, remember in NS1 when you built a chamber, you got all 3 of the upgrades made available (3 chambers to max effectiveness). Now the Khammander has to research them one-by-one on unique structures, but often only nabs 1 or 2 for effectively lower cost. So, yay opportunity costs.
I'd be interested in seeing how locked down upgrades per path would work out. Although as a Fade I typically run Regen + Cele/Adren, so it wouldn't change my build.
The fade should not go head on with more than two marines, because he is an assassin. So the solution:<ul><li>move the glowing ball while blinking in the middle of the model, so he is easier to hit.</li><li>make the fade 200% vulnerable while blinking</li><li>remove shadow step, make blink hive1</li><li>fix the flamer so that he is a hard counter to the fade because of energy drain (the flamer is broken with adrenaline right now!)</li></ul>
There is no need to cut down the health of the fade again. This leads to paper-fades. We got this already. The fade should endure some shots. But he should play like an assassin. NOT moving frontal with blink into a group of marines. Points above fixes that. With this, if you don't play the fade sneaky, you are dead meat. Also you can't escape so easy anymore.