Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
what about adding a holdable scifi riot shield (say using the nanoshield technology making it not vunerable to bilebomb) as a utility item a marine can carry replacing his main weapon which would block / greatly minimize bilebomb damage. I'd see it being sort of a marine variety of the whip gl deflection.
<!--quoteo(post=1956635:date=Aug 3 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Aug 3 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956635"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you have most of the marines spamming GLs with a couple welding the ARCs. Gorge bile bomb won't kill the weldy marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If marines have GLs, welding marines and arcs and the aliens can only defend with a couple of gorges, who should win in that scenario?
We used to see this with turrets all the time, and it has been fixed. Now it's the turn of alien structures I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was alien com in this game. You should account the fact, that the marines already lost the game in the moment where they couldn't hold tram. They tried to get to locker, but couldn't get it either. After we got all upgrades, I placed whips in every passage to stop the counter attacks. This was after we got 3 hives and end-tech. Docking is a cool map but has way to much RTs. That leads to to much res, and whip spam. You see this very rarely on summit or tram.
Anyway. I see the problem more in the ability of ending games fast that are already decided. Whips are to pricey to place them to soon. This only works with to much res in the end game.
I agree, there should be more slippery slope at the end of the game, so alien can finish the game rapidly once it's won. But one shouldn't be able or inclined to spam structure like that anyway. Also similar screen could be done early game with hydras spam.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't anyone else feel like the game has already been decided the moment khammander starts planting whips around? 15 res structure that a single marine can gun down with an LMG in a minute. It's not an awesome investment, if your team is still missing vital upgrades.
And if the opposing team is sitting with 4 hives... ...yeah, y u no recycle yet? :3
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1957626:date=Aug 5 2012, 10:40 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Aug 5 2012, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't anyone else feel like the game has already been decided the moment khammander starts planting whips around? 15 res structure that a single marine can gun down with an LMG in a minute. It's not an awesome investment, if your team is still missing vital upgrades.
And if the opposing team is sitting with 4 hives... ...yeah, y u no recycle yet? :3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game is only over when you hold more RT's than your enemy. The Alien Commander right now doesn't have much of a res sink except for Whips primarily. If Marines cannot kill off Harvesters/Upgrades early game and hold at least Onos Bar or Lockers/Terminal in that game, then you're obviously in big trouble and should have recycled sooner.
Towards end game if the Aliens have decent res flow it allows the Alien Commander to spend res on things s/he otherwise wouldn't have considered early game including Whip spam. I can guarantee you that the Alien Comm in that screenshot had a good amount of res left anyway.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
This is why I've always liked an overall 'supply limit' to structures (similar to supply caps for units in traditional RTSs), based on the number of tech nodes you hold. Then you can adjust the supply value of each structure to reduce the frequency that they can be built, without needing to nerf them into oblivion like has happened to sentries. The effect is similar to the turret factory limits in NS1, but gives more freedom to the comm (they get to choose the diversity of structure within the overall limit) and allows individual structures to still be powerful enough to be useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1957753:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:43 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 5 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why I've always liked an overall 'supply limit' to structures (similar to supply caps for units in traditional RTSs), based on the number of tech nodes you hold. Then you can adjust the supply value of each structure to reduce the frequency that they can be built, without needing to nerf them into oblivion like has happened to sentries. The effect is similar to the turret factory limits in NS1, but gives more freedom to the comm (they get to choose the diversity of structure within the overall limit) and allows individual structures to still be powerful enough to be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hard part is notifying the comm about this limitation.
But yes, a better system of caps would be nice. And it wouldn't even have to be linear. The jumps from 1->2 could be moderate (4->7 turrets!), but 2->3 and 3->4 be smaller (7->9, 9->10) so it's not a strict "I have more territory, I get way more stuff and allow the other team to consolidate and break through.
You'd think the flamer would burn everything to the ground but does nothing a Gorge's structures. My last game I was gorge defending our only hive and 5 Marines armed with flamethrowers tried to break through my barricade and they all died to my Hydras and pukes doing very little damage to me and my plants.
Wouldn't it make sense if the Flame does better damage against alien structures? What are those structures made of??
<!--quoteo(post=1957753:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:43 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 5 2012, 01:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is why I've always liked an overall 'supply limit' to structures (similar to supply caps for units in traditional RTSs), based on the number of tech nodes you hold. Then you can adjust the supply value of each structure to reduce the frequency that they can be built, without needing to nerf them into oblivion like has happened to sentries. The effect is similar to the turret factory limits in NS1, but gives more freedom to the comm (they get to choose the diversity of structure within the overall limit) and allows individual structures to still be powerful enough to be useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with supply limits is that in RTS you gain over the game stronger units and stronger defense. In NS2 you gain only stronger units but no stronger defense structures, currently this has to be balanced out by placing more of the weaker defense structures.
I'm not for some super whips or something like that, but i don't think a supply limit would work without other adjustments.
Just about the screenshot, it was taken just at the end of the game, but it was a similar picture 20 minutes before that, alien defenses all over the place, just less advanced. It was one of this long game.
It makes any kind of marine comeback very hard, because they get slaped into the face as soon as they leave an area.
They should bring back the whip push, at least you could use your tres to end the game. It was like "ho, we lost the game, it means in 5 minutes we will have 15 whips here taking down the cc."
<!--quoteo(post=1957743:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:24 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Aug 5 2012, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game is only over when you hold more RT's than your enemy. The Alien Commander right now doesn't have much of a res sink except for Whips primarily. If Marines cannot kill off Harvesters/Upgrades early game and hold at least Onos Bar or Lockers/Terminal in that game, then you're obviously in big trouble and should have recycled sooner.
Towards end game if the Aliens have decent res flow it allows the Alien Commander to spend res on things s/he otherwise wouldn't have considered early game including Whip spam. I can guarantee you that the Alien Comm in that screenshot had a good amount of res left anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I simply don't follow. I agree Khamm has tons of res nearing end game and not much to spend it on, but till the point he has 3 hives and stomp, can he afford to toss around 15 res whips? I don't think so, atleast. And if you hold 3 hives and get stomp, and marines aren't pushing out, well, they deserve whips popping up all over the place. :P
As it seems to got overlooked, my post on Yuukis picture:
<!--quoteo(post=1957615:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:19 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 5 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was alien com in this game. You should account the fact, that the marines already lost the game in the moment where they couldn't hold tram. They tried to get to locker, but couldn't get it either. After we got all upgrades, I placed whips in every passage to stop the counter attacks. This was after we got 3 hives and end-tech. Docking is a cool map but has way to much RTs. That leads to to much res, and whip spam. You see this very rarely on summit or tram.
Anyway. I see the problem more in the ability of ending games fast that are already decided. Whips are to pricey to place them to soon. This only works with to much res in the end game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a problem of whips. This is a problem of long lasting games that are already decided.
Comments
If marines have GLs, welding marines and arcs and the aliens can only defend with a couple of gorges, who should win in that scenario?
<img src="http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3172/fuuuuui.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
We used to see this with turrets all the time, and it has been fixed. Now it's the turn of alien structures I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was alien com in this game. You should account the fact, that the marines already lost the game in the moment where they couldn't hold tram. They tried to get to locker, but couldn't get it either. After we got all upgrades, I placed whips in every passage to stop the counter attacks. This was after we got 3 hives and end-tech. Docking is a cool map but has way to much RTs. That leads to to much res, and whip spam. You see this very rarely on summit or tram.
Anyway. I see the problem more in the ability of ending games fast that are already decided. Whips are to pricey to place them to soon. This only works with to much res in the end game.
And if the opposing team is sitting with 4 hives... ...yeah, y u no recycle yet? :3
And if the opposing team is sitting with 4 hives... ...yeah, y u no recycle yet? :3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Game is only over when you hold more RT's than your enemy. The Alien Commander right now doesn't have much of a res sink except for Whips primarily. If Marines cannot kill off Harvesters/Upgrades early game and hold at least Onos Bar or Lockers/Terminal in that game, then you're obviously in big trouble and should have recycled sooner.
Towards end game if the Aliens have decent res flow it allows the Alien Commander to spend res on things s/he otherwise wouldn't have considered early game including Whip spam. I can guarantee you that the Alien Comm in that screenshot had a good amount of res left anyway.
Hard part is notifying the comm about this limitation.
But yes, a better system of caps would be nice. And it wouldn't even have to be linear. The jumps from 1->2 could be moderate (4->7 turrets!), but 2->3 and 3->4 be smaller (7->9, 9->10) so it's not a strict "I have more territory, I get way more stuff and allow the other team to consolidate and break through.
Wouldn't it make sense if the Flame does better damage against alien structures? What are those structures made of??
The problem with supply limits is that in RTS you gain over the game stronger units and stronger defense. In NS2 you gain only stronger units but no stronger defense structures, currently this has to be balanced out by placing more of the weaker defense structures.
I'm not for some super whips or something like that, but i don't think a supply limit would work without other adjustments.
It makes any kind of marine comeback very hard, because they get slaped into the face as soon as they leave an area.
They should bring back the whip push, at least you could use your tres to end the game. It was like "ho, we lost the game, it means in 5 minutes we will have 15 whips here taking down the cc."
Towards end game if the Aliens have decent res flow it allows the Alien Commander to spend res on things s/he otherwise wouldn't have considered early game including Whip spam. I can guarantee you that the Alien Comm in that screenshot had a good amount of res left anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I simply don't follow. I agree Khamm has tons of res nearing end game and not much to spend it on, but till the point he has 3 hives and stomp, can he afford to toss around 15 res whips? I don't think so, atleast. And if you hold 3 hives and get stomp, and marines aren't pushing out, well, they deserve whips popping up all over the place. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1957615:date=Aug 5 2012, 04:19 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 5 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was alien com in this game. You should account the fact, that the marines already lost the game in the moment where they couldn't hold tram. They tried to get to locker, but couldn't get it either. After we got all upgrades, I placed whips in every passage to stop the counter attacks. This was after we got 3 hives and end-tech. Docking is a cool map but has way to much RTs. That leads to to much res, and whip spam. You see this very rarely on summit or tram.
Anyway. I see the problem more in the ability of ending games fast that are already decided. Whips are to pricey to place them to soon. This only works with to much res in the end game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't a problem of whips. This is a problem of long lasting games that are already decided.