Alien upgrades are too easy to snipe
ChickenOfWar
Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
Join Date: 2003-04-09 Member: 15352Members
I just played a few games where a single marine (the same guy too, damned annoying) was able to sneak into our base and kill the majority of our upgrades before we were able to get there. We (or at least I) responded immediately but the structures are just too damn squishy.
This would be slightly okay if aliens were able to do the same thing to marines, but they cant. I know someone is gonna come in here and say "two gorges with bilebomb can rush in there and maybe get a structure down!". But theres a difference between two people needing to cooperate AND spend pres in order to MAYBE take down the arms lab and one marine rushing up to the structure for free and taking it out while the alien team is busy elsewhere.
Even if those gorges did get the arms lab down, its an extremely simple matter to just build it back up and get your upgrades back. It's much more costly for the aliens to have to constantly replace their upgrades when they can be sniped so easily.
If the marines had to go through a similar ordeal to get their upgrades back perhaps it might be worth it to snipe the arms lab.
tl;dr its not fair that a single marine can be so detrimental to the alien team's progress over and over again when the aliens have to cooperate AND INVEST heavily in order to MAYBE temporarily set the marines back.
This would be slightly okay if aliens were able to do the same thing to marines, but they cant. I know someone is gonna come in here and say "two gorges with bilebomb can rush in there and maybe get a structure down!". But theres a difference between two people needing to cooperate AND spend pres in order to MAYBE take down the arms lab and one marine rushing up to the structure for free and taking it out while the alien team is busy elsewhere.
Even if those gorges did get the arms lab down, its an extremely simple matter to just build it back up and get your upgrades back. It's much more costly for the aliens to have to constantly replace their upgrades when they can be sniped so easily.
If the marines had to go through a similar ordeal to get their upgrades back perhaps it might be worth it to snipe the arms lab.
tl;dr its not fair that a single marine can be so detrimental to the alien team's progress over and over again when the aliens have to cooperate AND INVEST heavily in order to MAYBE temporarily set the marines back.
Comments
However I feel like aliens need to be able to do this to marines too but it'll create really problematic scenario where one or two skulks can just keep marines tied in their base and they can't move anywhere so it'll be really tricky and hard to balance this thing out and I'm not sure is this really even a problem to be honest, it's just how public works; it just lacks and will always lack teamplay because people don't take it that seriously.
tl;dr it all comes down that people don't scout or teamplay that well on public so ninjas will get into your hive and do that when in pcw ninjaing isn't viable tactic almost ever because you'll be spotted and if not you deserve to be able to take aliens upgrade down.
As a khammander, if you are not requesting your team to be in defending distance of your hive(s), then you need to devote some Team Resources to setting up static defenses.
Obviously, whips are an excellent option here: parking a few of these around your upgrades will make it that much harder for a marine to cozy up to a shell/veil/spur and axe it to death. As well, they can't just lob grenades in. Flamethrowers and arcs however, are a different problem.
Shades are a must, as they will make it a lot harder for a marine to locate your upgrade structures. I have taken to dropping my structures outside of the hive, counting on marines to assume they are there and to either hunt around for them or rely on commander scans to find them. Plus if you use shades, you can disable arc attacks that use scans for targetting.
Becoming a gorge as a khammander is a really good idea - it means you can drop some hydras in the hive for additional static defense, as well as put clogs around your upgrade structures.
Redundancy is also a good strategy - especially if you are swimming in Team resources. Drop additional upgrade structures across your hives and evolve them at will. Too often khammanders evolve the carapace shell and figure that's job well done and forget about it.
Finally, though I haven't done this myself, you can always use the shift's echo ability to transport structures from one part of the map to another. So if you are watching helplessly as a marine saunters into the base to kill your upgrades (again) you can *ZOINK* them to another part of the map.
To conclude - the khammander is far from helpless in protecting the upgrade structures.
Still going for shift first means giving up cara or regen or adrenaline for the far less useful camo or the (perhaps more useful but not as useful as cara/regen) feign death.
Increasing upgrade structure health would make it so you don't have to nerf the marines to balance this, everyone is happy except the rambo getting away with killing structures all the time.
Supsu would you mind linking a video showing a scout keeping an upgrade structure from being killed? I understand the concept I'm just having a hard time imagining the execution actually working.
Players spawning in should be the only ones effected by this upgrade loss too. Otherwise it's like a hidden modifier.
I'm sure you mean the Shade hive, which allows for development of camoflague, silence and feign death. I think silence is highly underrated - it's a great ability, even into middle game. That said, I realize that many players insist that "you can't win games without carapace or regeneration."
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Increasing upgrade structure health would make it so you don't have to nerf the marines to balance this, everyone is happy except the rambo getting away with killing structures all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the balance is right, actually - it's a real incentive to protect your hive, and a lesson that all khammanders must learn.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Supsu would you mind linking a video showing a scout keeping an upgrade structure from being killed? I understand the concept I'm just having a hard time imagining the execution actually working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he's talking about drifters, I think he is actually suggesting that players acting as scouts inform the khammander of imminent threats.
Oh and I can't say it enough, if you are a comm and you are in the hive watching someone destroying the upgrades next to it, burn in hell! ;) Alien comms can't beacon, so they should get out and protect the hive area. I don't know how many times I got killed by rines in a hive that I would leave almost dead and the comm was just watching me and the upgrades die from above instead of jumping out and finishing them/supporting me!
For alien structures getting sniped;
As a commander:
use foresight
use drifters
listen to your enemies moving on the map
jump out of the hive to defend if someone still manages to get into your hiveroom
As alien player:
Scout the map where no other aliens are
use parasite
communicate early when you spot something
Theres 2-3 routes into your hiveroom, and one of them usually being the only realistic choice for someone to get there. If you dont scout that you deserve to lose the structures.
Scouting is so basics, you need to know what your enemy is up to, so you can try and respond to it before its too late.
Sounds better for me. This will prevent upgradesniping.
I've seen you do that, and it makes a lot of sense, but I've found that when I do it those sneaky marines still find a way to sneak in. Also takes so long to get it done right, by the time I get it set up reasonably well I have 50 Team Resources waiting to be used...
Agreed, I think it should be easier to use Clogs as a "building defender" or outer shell or something. Clogs don't really do anything but block atm, and it seems a bit short sighted to leave them to such a simple task when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118513" target="_blank">just a few tweaks</a> would help them be so much more useful.
Build a couple drifters. Problem solved for 3-9 tres!
And it's not soley the comm's job to make sure the upgrade structures don't die- it's really a team responsibility. It<i> is</i> sort of like your main base and if marines are getting in there often and long enough to kill your tech structures over and over again then I'd think the structure survivability is the least of your problems.
Things that contribute to the upgrade structures getting sniped:
-Absent minded gorges - place hydras in key chokepoints to make it much more difficult for rines' to get anywhere near your main hive, and make sure to heal any damage from previous assaults so that stuff is not just sitting there in a weakened state when/if those marines make it back for round2+. I see a lot of gorges just build sand castles as close to the marine base as they can and ignore what is going on everywhere else in the map. If the marines keep sneaking in through north tunnels, move the sand castle there!
-Absent mined skulk play - you should be scouting for marines and if you notice they are gunning for your upgrades then at least 1 skulk should probably dedicate his existence to making that marines attempts fail miserabley
-Drifters - as people said above even just making one drifter and putting it in a key location to scout your weak/less active half of the map for rambo/james bond rines trying to sneak in the back door can be a massive help. Drifters are a great early warning system for anything, really- PGs, surprise marines pushes, RT harassment etc. Really under rated and under used in the early game.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not the structure itself that is problematic or too weak/snipable but the mentality of teamwork and strategy that is lacking on the alien team. Sniping upgrades is something that is completely preventable and it punishes an alien team for sloppy play imo. It is basic strategy- either you respond to marine attempts to snipe your tech structures or you don't and get punished for it over and over again. I don't see the problem with this- the answer should not be "well buff the shell and make it unsnipable". =P
+1.
- place drifter at hotspots
- go gorge and build some cloqs around your upgrades
- build a whipe beside the upgrades
- if an upgrade goes down, dont build a new one @ the same spot
- if an marine comes to hive again and again, told that to your team so they can scout the routes morew
But the most important thing are the drifters.
^^ agreed 100%. Concerns me that a lot of the feedback UWE are getting is from these whines.
What saddens me is that marines don't have to worry about their structures getting sniped. No effort on their part has to be made. The only argument for making alien upgrade structures unsnipable is the fact that marine structures are nigh unsnipable. And if they are sniped it's a relatively painless fix.
What saddens me is that marines don't have to worry about their structures getting sniped. No effort on their part has to be made. The only argument for making alien upgrade structures unsnipable is the fact that marine structures are nigh unsnipable. And if they are sniped it's a relatively painless fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Id say not true. Ive solo'd arm labs many time by my self. Just lack of teamwork.
He can "snipe" a base alone in the right moment.
But then, this is will be just another case of experienced players saying "everything is alright, you're just bad" (seen that used as an argument far too many times, without giving any real reasons)
Granted that this is kind of true in this case, there are many ways to protect your upgrades as aliens
But then, this is will be just another case of experienced players saying "everything is alright, you're just bad" (seen that used as an argument far too many times, without giving any real reasons)
Granted that this is kind of true in this case, there are many ways to protect your upgrades as aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beacon, phase gates, mines?
- Placing chambers in uncommon/difficult to reach locations (think vents, corners, behind props, etc)
- Covering chambers in clogs
- General defenses (whips/hydras) near the chamber
- Placing it behind the hive so you can jump out and defend easily
- Shade cloak
Granted, Aliens require their tech structures to mature properly. Marines rebuild and regain their abilities. So the loss of Alien Tech is a bigger deal. But the fact both sides are complaining is way too amusing.
Players spawning in should be the only ones effected by this upgrade loss too. Otherwise it's like a hidden modifier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea.
Players spawning in should be the only ones effected by this upgrade loss too. Otherwise it's like a hidden modifier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Marines would just lose every game instantly after their armslab had been sniped. Aliens don't lose when their upgrade is taken down, it just puts them behind.
ChickenOfWar: Skulk scouts that marines are coming from some side of the map, he informs the team, people gather, kill the marines. Scout doesn't immediately kill anyone, he just informs people to gather.