Game Balance Issue
Anti_Good
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8707Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8707Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Large games vs small games</div> I noticed something peculiar today while playing on one of the larger servers (30 people). The marines were <i>consistently</i> winning. At first I attributed this to the skill of my commander, but then I tried playing as aliens and soon found out that even when the aliens were somewhat coordinated, they still lost. I found an explanation for this in the way that resources work. I know the NS team did a very good job at balancing <i>how</i> resources are produced, however there was a side effect that they probably had not anticipated.
The way that resources are distributed causes small games to favor the aliens team, while large games will favor the marines.
Look at how resources are generated: (I read this somewhere or other, if I'm wrong, just correct me, I think this is how it goes)
On the marines side, all the resources go into a "pot" that the commander can use at a rate of:
(controlled nodes)x(.23)x(#marines)x(#aliens/#marines)
On the aliens side, all the resources go into a "pot" then are divided up equally among the team with gorges getting 3x the amount other units do at a rate of:
(controlled nodes)x(.23)x(#aliens)x(#marines/#aliens)
This is then divided by [(#Gorges)x3 + (#other units)x1] to obtain the resources that each unit recieves. Gorges will recieve 3x this amount.
For now, let us assume that the teams are equal to keep things simple.
For the case of a smaller game (say 6v6) we can see that the resources will flow in at the rate
( let N = controlled nodes )
(N)x(.23)x(6)x(6/6) = 1.38N
This will be true for both teams, however we can safely assume that if the aliens are compotent they will only have one gorge running around, so the gorge will receive resources at the rate of:
1.38N/((1)x3 + 5) x 3 = .5175
So here we have the ratio of Commander resources to Gorge resources at 2.667:1
In a large game (15v15) the resources will flow in at the rate
(N)x(.23)x(15)x(15/15) = 3.45N
Meaning that if the aliens only have one gorge, the gorge will recieve resources at the rate of:
3.45N/((1)x3 + 14) x 3 = .6088N
This presents a problem for the aliens team, because now the ratio between Commander Resources and Gorge resources is: 5.667:1
The table of the ratios
#v# Ratio (marine pot:gorge)
1v1 -- 1:1
2v2 -- 1.333:1
3v3 -- 1.667:1
4v4 -- 2:1
5v5 -- 2.333:1
6v6 -- 2.667:1
7v7 -- 3:1
8v8 -- 3.333:1
9v9 -- 3.667:1
10v10-- 4:1
11v11-- 4.333:1
12v12-- 4.667:1
13v13-- 5:1
14v14-- 5.333:1
15v15-- 5.667:1
Well, what does this all mean?
It pretty much says that in a larger game, the aliens will not be able to build things as fast as the marines because of the resource distribution method. This means that they won't be able to build as fast, and likewise getting chambers/resource extractors/hives will take much longer relative to how fast the marines build structures. This gives the marines an advantage over the aliens as the size of the game grows larger and larger.
I will also state that the advantage that the marines obtain from this fades after every member of the aliens team other than the gorge reaches the maximum number of resources; however, this does not happen for several minutes. Once each member of the aliens team reaches maximum resource capacity, the ratio becomes 1:1 again, but this will occur after the critical first few minutes of a game, giving the marines enough time to move out secure an easy victory for the most part (either by moving phasegates into 2 hive locations or just expanding to enough resource nozzles).
The main point I'm trying to get across here is the fact that as the game gets larger and larger, the aliens initial construction rate becomes slower and slower relative to the marines. This becomes exponentially worse as the marines are able to secure/tap resource nozzles at a faster rate than the aliens, giving them an even greater advantage.
Possible solution:
Give all Gorge units a fixed percentage of all resources produced (divided among gorges), then divide up whatever is left among other units. This would eliminate the alien advantage in small games while reducing the marine advantage in large games.
Formula used to make table: (.23P)/((.23P)/(3+(P-1))x3)
The way that resources are distributed causes small games to favor the aliens team, while large games will favor the marines.
Look at how resources are generated: (I read this somewhere or other, if I'm wrong, just correct me, I think this is how it goes)
On the marines side, all the resources go into a "pot" that the commander can use at a rate of:
(controlled nodes)x(.23)x(#marines)x(#aliens/#marines)
On the aliens side, all the resources go into a "pot" then are divided up equally among the team with gorges getting 3x the amount other units do at a rate of:
(controlled nodes)x(.23)x(#aliens)x(#marines/#aliens)
This is then divided by [(#Gorges)x3 + (#other units)x1] to obtain the resources that each unit recieves. Gorges will recieve 3x this amount.
For now, let us assume that the teams are equal to keep things simple.
For the case of a smaller game (say 6v6) we can see that the resources will flow in at the rate
( let N = controlled nodes )
(N)x(.23)x(6)x(6/6) = 1.38N
This will be true for both teams, however we can safely assume that if the aliens are compotent they will only have one gorge running around, so the gorge will receive resources at the rate of:
1.38N/((1)x3 + 5) x 3 = .5175
So here we have the ratio of Commander resources to Gorge resources at 2.667:1
In a large game (15v15) the resources will flow in at the rate
(N)x(.23)x(15)x(15/15) = 3.45N
Meaning that if the aliens only have one gorge, the gorge will recieve resources at the rate of:
3.45N/((1)x3 + 14) x 3 = .6088N
This presents a problem for the aliens team, because now the ratio between Commander Resources and Gorge resources is: 5.667:1
The table of the ratios
#v# Ratio (marine pot:gorge)
1v1 -- 1:1
2v2 -- 1.333:1
3v3 -- 1.667:1
4v4 -- 2:1
5v5 -- 2.333:1
6v6 -- 2.667:1
7v7 -- 3:1
8v8 -- 3.333:1
9v9 -- 3.667:1
10v10-- 4:1
11v11-- 4.333:1
12v12-- 4.667:1
13v13-- 5:1
14v14-- 5.333:1
15v15-- 5.667:1
Well, what does this all mean?
It pretty much says that in a larger game, the aliens will not be able to build things as fast as the marines because of the resource distribution method. This means that they won't be able to build as fast, and likewise getting chambers/resource extractors/hives will take much longer relative to how fast the marines build structures. This gives the marines an advantage over the aliens as the size of the game grows larger and larger.
I will also state that the advantage that the marines obtain from this fades after every member of the aliens team other than the gorge reaches the maximum number of resources; however, this does not happen for several minutes. Once each member of the aliens team reaches maximum resource capacity, the ratio becomes 1:1 again, but this will occur after the critical first few minutes of a game, giving the marines enough time to move out secure an easy victory for the most part (either by moving phasegates into 2 hive locations or just expanding to enough resource nozzles).
The main point I'm trying to get across here is the fact that as the game gets larger and larger, the aliens initial construction rate becomes slower and slower relative to the marines. This becomes exponentially worse as the marines are able to secure/tap resource nozzles at a faster rate than the aliens, giving them an even greater advantage.
Possible solution:
Give all Gorge units a fixed percentage of all resources produced (divided among gorges), then divide up whatever is left among other units. This would eliminate the alien advantage in small games while reducing the marine advantage in large games.
Formula used to make table: (.23P)/((.23P)/(3+(P-1))x3)
Comments
Great post... I agree with you. Balance wise I think all the tech is pretty even. It's resources and respawn that needs to be looked at.
Where'd you get those numbers though? Are those official?
Thanks
It is worth something to an individual that will stop and think about it. How long does it take for the skulk's "resource bags" to fill up in a large game? Quite a while. And if you bothered to read the thread, I stated that the marines team will gain resources at a much faster rate for the beginning of the game. Because of this, the marines will be able to expand faster to more resource nozzles. This gives them an even greater advantage. Since the game runs on an exponential growth model (when you capture a res nozzle, then you can capture the next one in less and less time due to the increased rate at which you gain resources) it gives the marines a VERY BIG advantage in a larger game. Many people here will agree that the first few minutes of a game are the most critical.
Also if you even bothered to pay attention to my post you would have understood that the marines will _GAIN RESOURCES FASTER AND FASTER AS GAME SIZE INCREASES WHILE THE GORGE WILL RECIEVE THEM SLOWER AND SLOWER_.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->keep things simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did READ your own first post didn't ya Anti? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you have decent alien players though (not Marines who've just 'graduated' <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) most aliens will organize without talking a group rush, just because it enhances your lifetime in any group of marines. OT I know, but worth mentioning.
As for the "skulks' bags being full" - with a large team, that takes a LONG time to happen. Having more gorges to start with should actually help in that initial phase, I think, as more resources will get diverted to building. If the gorges get triple res as I think then:
Team of 10 with 1 gorge: gorge gets 3/12 = 25% of the resources.
Team of 10 with 2 gorges: gorges get 6/14 = 43% of the resources.
Team of 10 with 3 gorges: gorges get 9/16 = 56% of the resources.
So I think that it is important to have enough gorges on such servers. But it's a very tricky line to balance. I don't know how to get aliens to win on large servers; marines can travel to all 3 hives at the same time in groups of 3 and pretty easily hold off skulks from a distance, regardless of any resource issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea works in part, but remember that the hive structure costs a whopping 80 resources, and with three gorges running around, each getting a small fraction of the total team resources, it will take a very very long time in a large game.
With your calculations, a team of 10 with three gorges, would have the gorges getting 56% of the resources, but each receiving 18.75%. When you have one of these guys save up for a hive, then assuming both teams have equal resources, the marines will have gained 426.67 resources in the same amount of time. This is enough to have them running around with HA and HMG's to use against <i>skulks</i>
Keep in mind as well that the marines have an easier time with teamwork. Even if the aliens are "somewhat organized" in a 24 person game, can they handle a 10-marine rush? Not unless they do a 10-skulk rush, and good luck getting that together.
i dont think i can put up with anymore
"oh the aliens/marines are more powerfull...blah blah" posts....
so well done <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
btw, us marines took on a 5+ skulk rush...it was chaos....hehe...we all just saw this whole army of skulks charge out of the door and then everyone just started runing, screaming through their voice comm, and spraying like mad...
i got about two...the rest died at my feet...thanks to my nice teammates saving my butt <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I need to really get better at math...
my head hurts now
*POP* ooow..lol
Some very interesting research though, gj. =)
As for the "skulks' bags being full" - with a large team, that takes a LONG time to happen. Having more gorges to start with should actually help in that initial phase, I think, as more resources will get diverted to building. If the gorges get triple res as I think then:
Team of 10 with 1 gorge: gorge gets 3/12 = 25% of the resources.
Team of 10 with 2 gorges: gorges get 6/14 = 43% of the resources.
Team of 10 with 3 gorges: gorges get 9/16 = 56% of the resources.
So I think that it is important to have enough gorges on such servers. But it's a very tricky line to balance. I don't know how to get aliens to win on large servers; marines can travel to all 3 hives at the same time in groups of 3 and pretty easily hold off skulks from a distance, regardless of any resource issues.
Well, this is a big difference, but it seem to be all balanced now, atleast in the many games(big and small) that i've played!
But if someone disagree, speak to dev team and make them do something about it.. maybe set that solution of your in action?
On the other side of things, the marines could also get health out of the ammo unit as well, so they could crank their health back up without the commander having to drop supplies.
It felt a heck of a lot more balanced, and I quite enjoyed it.
While this is a skewing factor with resources and large games, it isn't the only one. And I know that this has been mentioned before in the forums, but the marines tend to have a lot of static costs in the way of their tech tree. That is, many of their buildings and research are only needed once for the entire team, yet aren't scaled by the number of players, making it easier to obtain much sooner. While this is also true for the alien hive, most of the alien upgrading relies more on each player having the resources to evolve.
Basically, this is why marines can toss down a phase gate real early in a large game like its nothing, yet would be more choked resource-wise in smaller games if they attempted to do so. The phase gate, motion tracking, distress beacon, and arms-lab upgrades are all things that provide a benefit for the entire team on a fixed cost. In fact, each of these things become (as mentioned by others) much easier to obtain in large games.
Name: Guns4Back2School
IP: 64.242.126.100:27015
I was playing on that and one of the admins slayed me..haha..i have to admit..that admin was kinda stupid. He slayed me right as I jump out from a vent to suicide into a hive full of Off chambers. He couldn't wait a sec longer? Heheh
I was playing on Coronas In Space this morning (all morning, oops) in my first 30 person game. It was fantastic. However, I definitely got the feeling that the resources were off, and came to the same conclusion you did. I will probably be reworking the alien resource model quite a bit for v1.1, so I'm not sure I have time to fix this properly for v1.04, but I'll definitely take it into consideration.
A few other things:
- We experimented with alien resource donation, but I removed it because it meant the aliens were spending their time donating instead of fighting.
- I'll probably implement a variable alien respawn time to even things out a bit for bigger games (goes down with more players)
- Once again, great analysis. Very useful.