<!--quoteo(post=1947052:date=Jun 27 2012, 04:41 PM:name=fwd-Random)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fwd-Random @ Jun 27 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quite a depressing thread to read. Sounds like 210 was a 6 month step backwards in terms of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah. 210 isn't the most playable, but it's a good groundwork to fix up. A lot of the problems are caused by high tres income and low cost. When the costs are evened out (lower tres income speed and increased building/upgrade cost) then the game will play much better.
Problems like nanoshields and arcs are half res income/cost problems and half the actual mechanic. Arcs have some problems, but it was exasperated in b210 by the first incarnation of the new res system which caused teams to float huge amounts of res after finishing upgrades earlier than ever. Thus, bigger arc trains even in relatively normal games.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1946971:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:37 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 27 2012, 08:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It didn't look like fuel costs increase or decrease by weight. But by my previous post, the distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is lowered by weight. That means that while fuel cost per time doesn't seem to be increased, fuel cost per distance traveled, speed, and acceleration is increased by weight because weight lowers the effectiveness of the jetpack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting with the JP. I guess the speed with different weapons out/weapons carried from walking/sprinting is being carried over to the jetpack. In general, when I need to cover a large distance, I switch to my axe to go slightly faster. Good to know this will also work with the JP.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Overall, this patch has been a big step in the right direction. Most of the issues talked about in this thread aren't actually new for this patch, they just became more apparent due to the changes. This is a good thing -- it means it's easier to see what's broken and what's not.
<!--quoteo(post=1946944:date=Jun 27 2012, 08:34 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 27 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, this is not how accurate aiming works. The only reason a wide spread can be helpful IRL is because even just one pellet or bullet hitting the target usually means incapacitation or death. In games, however, you need many pellets or bullets to hit in order to get a kill. In that scenario, less spread is always (provided you are not completely inept at aiming) beneficial, regardless of range.This is plainly obvious when using the shotgun, or conversely the pistol, so I don't understand how it's even possible to come to the conclusion you have.
What you are describing is one of the most beautiful mechanics from NS1. It's a shame you don't understand it and are willing to dismiss it just because you have problems playing marine at the moment.
1. It adds a skill element that can be learnt and improved on through practice -- either by parasiting while you're closing the distance towards the marine or by parasiting if you lose contact with the marine during an engagement.
2. It adds another incentive to use parasite (the original reason why it was implemented in version 3.0 of NS1).
It's a shame parasites can be healed by medpacks though, as it is a massive disincentive to using parasites for anything other than pure combat.
3. It helps balance weapon upgrades vs. armor upgrades. Before A0 = 2bites + parasite / A1 = 3 bites was implemented in NS1, good marine commanders never, ever, upgraded W1 first. Everything was pre-decided because that upgrade from A0 = 2 bites to A1 = 3 bites was so much more powerful than the W1 upgrade. After the change, the upgrades were more balanced, which allowed for new build orders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you could clarify with me about the difference between real life and videogaames. It was well needed.
To put it in simple terms... there is "spray" and there is "stream". They both have their advantages... one is better for stuff that is at a distance (Which skulks never are when they are attacking you). And one is better for things that are up close to you (Like skulks). I see the guns mechanics in NS2 to be a "Stream" like the lightning gun in quake. Amazing weapon if you have very high accuracy as you have to twitch and trace at the same time. Lots of fun. But the lightning gun gets much harder to aim accurately the closer and faster a target is to you. Then there is the m4a1 in counter-strike which is a wall of bullets or a "spray". It's more reliant on how fast you aim over how accurately you can trace. I prefer that style of gun mechanics because it gives an edge to players who have fast reaction times. Just the way maps are designed with walls so close together (Giving skulks plenty to get speed boosts) and tech points so close together compared to ns1... marines are almost always engaging skulks in close quarters where the lightning gun mechanics are not beneficial to the player. Maybe it's just because of leap at the moment but it seems to me that almost all of my kills on skulks are at point blank range.
Anyone who played counter-strike should understand this concept. We are basically arguing 2 different philosophies... you are defending the one implemented by the devs... which is give players perfect accuracy but demand perfect aim. Well that is all nice and everything... perhaps if we had proper reg and FPS it wouldn't be such a big deal to have it that way. But right now having perfect accuracy is pretty difficult for people with performance issues. For the greater good you could perhaps tweak the LMG to have more spread and more damage as well to make up for the apparent "lack of accuracy". It doesn't really matter how you balance it as long as it's balanced and works. I'm sure you will still disagree but that is fine because we are all entitled to our own <i><b>opinions</b></i>.
Of course anything that has less spread will be more "accurate" that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the gun mechanics could be modeled more "realistically" and more conventionally and give a tradeoff instead. I feel this way because right now... at least for me perfect accuracy isn't always possible. I know it probably will never be changed, but I did write a topic about bulletspread a few months back and the devs did actually end up increasing the spread by a substantial amount. Whether or not they did that due to my idea is unknown to me but, I do know they increased it.
I honestly just feel like skulks take too many bullets to kill, and am trying to find a solution. So, you can all pin it on me that I am a bad player or try to come up with other possible solutions. To me and others the skulks seem to take 30 bullets to kill. The question is what is the cause? Is it reg? Or is it the gun mechanics? I am not a game engineer so I cannot tell. I can only give my opinion on what I think could work. Anyone may feel free to think I am idiot for my ideas.
Oh, and to the second part of your post about parasites. That is mostly just your opinion. I think parasiting people is a bad gameplay mechanic... but you show how it benefits other aspects of the game. Well that is great but even so I still think it's not fun being on the other side of the parasite. Trust me... I love moving 200 MPH into marine start... parasiting two marines and leap over to them and biting their feet. It's great fun. So maybe leave it in... but what do the marines have as a counter? Nothing really. Armor 1... but you can't get that for a while and they will have leap to go with it.
I really think parasite is a really powerful and good thing to use... obviously. I just don't see the tradeoff to using it. You still have enough energy to leap and spam bite even after parasiting people. Something seems broken to me...
You can simulate higher spread by shaking a bit your mouse around the target instead of trying to hit it perfectly, I do that sometimes when I can't aim (so often). You just trade some lost bullets for more chances of hitting your target.
You can't simulate low spread with high spread however.
I can see what adhd is saying about Skulks taking too many bullets to kill, sometimes I shoot a Skulk with my full clip and he's still alive other times I shoot in the same pattern and the Skulk dies almost immediately (They both had full health) Obviously there's a lack of reliability when it comes to hit registration..
But, I don't think increasing bullet spread is a good idea..
And I've played every FPS ever made as well as having a 57:1 average kill to death ratio against Marine not to mention the 7,028,382 million hours that I have played of NS2 so I'm pretty sure my opinion outranks you all.
What can I say, I'm a God at playing FPS and and it is <b>very relevant to my argument</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1947237:date=Jun 28 2012, 04:39 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ Jun 28 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can see what adhd is saying about Skulks taking too many bullets to kill, sometimes I shoot a Skulk with my full clip and he's still alive other times I shoot in the same pattern and the Skulk dies almost immediately (They both had full health) Obviously there's a lack of reliability when it comes to hit registration..
But, I don't think increasing bullet spread is a good idea..
And I've played every FPS ever made as well as having a 57:1 average kill to death ratio against Marine not to mention the 7,028,382 million hours that I have played of NS2 so I'm pretty sure my opinion outranks you all.
What can I say, I'm a God at playing FPS and and it is <b>very relevant to my argument</b>.
Or maybe I'm just insecure..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weakening the Skulk's offensive capacity to below the amount that worked so well in NS1 just to compensate for hitreg problems would end up being just another thing they'd have to revert once hitreg improves. The causes of apparent balance issues are not necessarily balance issues themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1947244:date=Jun 28 2012, 04:52 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jun 28 2012, 04:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weakening the Skulk's offensive capacity to below the amount that worked so well in NS1 just to compensate for hitreg problems would end up being just another thing they'd have to revert once hitreg improves. The causes of apparent balance issues are not necessarily balance issues themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True.
So heres a crazy question for the devs... how do bullets work in NS2? When I hold down mouse1 are there 50 seperate bullet events being sent to the server or is it handled as a damage per second rounded off to the nearest whole number to coincide with ammo?
Cause the lmg literally feels identical to the lightning gun in quake which didn't fire bullets but a stream of DPS.
Because I know how the LMG sound works like if you hold down mouse1 a loop of the firing sound will continue until you release. There is no individual sounds for each bullet event... so why not take that even further and make it so when you hold down mouse1 you simply do DPS rather than individual bullet damage... would that help with reg? Or are bullets actually treated as bullets?
I think they are treated like bullets (in your comparison). But it's not that easy. If you hold your mouse button, the server get this as an update from your client (together with position and direction you are looking) and process this every game update turn. If you happen to aim right at a target, the server calculates this as a hit. If you release the mouse button or you run out of ammo, the server just stops to make this calculation in the update round.
At least thats how I would do it.
Now to the problem. The servers have problems to keep a steady tickrate (= game updates per second). So if the server can't calculate if you have hit or not, your bullet is lost. With a server tickrate of 30 you can only hit 30 bullets per second. With a server tickrate of 10 or 5... you get the picture.
Disclaimer: This is a strong simplification. Not taking into account, lag compensation etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1947229:date=Jun 28 2012, 05:11 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 28 2012, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course anything that has less spread will be more "accurate" that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the gun mechanics could be modeled more "realistically" and more conventionally and give a tradeoff instead. I feel this way because right now... at least for me perfect accuracy isn't always possible. I know it probably will never be changed, but I did write a topic about bulletspread a few months back and the devs did actually end up increasing the spread by a substantial amount. Whether or not they did that due to my idea is unknown to me but, I do know they increased it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're arguing to increase the spread and increase the damage by an amount that will be somewhat equal to damage output by the current lmg versus a skulk. This basically just removes some skill from using the LMG. All this would do is make things easier. It increases the skill floor (so bad players are better) and lowers the skill ceiling (so good players are capped earlier).
I can't disagree more with a suggestion that makes aiming your LMG easier. All changes like this do is hurt competition and artificially cap player-skill.
If a skulk is standing still it's 10 rounds every time to kill(no cara). 3 rounds with laser sighted pistol. It's just accuracy gets rough when your frames start suffering/server rubberbands/other performance derps. Hit registration seems to be rough also sometimes my cross hair is right on him and I don't even get the red X, not sure if it's due to the performance or what but I'm sure it will be ironed out in 2 months.
As far as i know, LMG spread has never been increased, its actually been decreased to be more accurate than NS1 (versus a bigger skulk too). Obviously a majority of that deals with the hit detection and can be adjusted as that improves.
Regarding hitting skulks the best advice I can give is that while you may be unable to track skulks perfectly, there are and will be people that can (within reason ofc), that is part of the skill in this game. This is not a game like DOTA where game knowledge is 9/10ths of the skill required to be good. NS blends movement skill and aiming skill, which is what leads it to be one of the most demanding games skillwise. There were people with hundreds/thousands of hours in NS1 that still could not match players with a fraction of that time played just because of their raw skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1947308:date=Jun 28 2012, 09:45 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 28 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're arguing to increase the spread and increase the damage by an amount that will be somewhat equal to damage output by the current lmg versus a skulk. This basically just removes some skill from using the LMG. All this would do is make things easier. It increases the skill floor (so bad players are better) and lowers the skill ceiling (so good players are capped earlier).
I can't disagree more with a suggestion that makes aiming your LMG easier. All changes like this do is hurt competition and artificially cap player-skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1947313:date=Jun 28 2012, 10:03 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 28 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as i know, LMG spread has never been increased, its actually been decreased to be more accurate than NS1 (versus a bigger skulk too). Obviously a majority of that deals with the hit detection and can be adjusted as that improves.
Regarding hitting skulks the best advice I can give is that while you may be unable to track skulks perfectly, there are and will be people that can (within reason ofc), that is part of the skill in this game. This is not a game like DOTA where game knowledge is 9/10ths of the skill required to be good. NS blends movement skill and aiming skill, which is what leads it to be one of the most demanding games skillwise. There were people with hundreds/thousands of hours in NS1 that still could not match players with a fraction of that time played just because of their raw skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get it... you think you have incredible aim and you have no problems so let's balance the game around you guys right? And no offense but I really don't need your advice on how to aim. My aiming is fine. I can kill plenty of things with the LMG current. I would rather have the aiming style be different and modeled like counter-strike. I guess that makes me a noob with bad aim.
It's not even that it makes aiming easier... I simply think twitch aiming at fast moving targets is much more appropriate than asking players to trace. Just the way the game is designed it seems very counter-intuitive. This is my opinion and you could balance the skulks differently with the LMG spread to make it just as skillbased if you really wanted to. It's just a different mechanic for a different style of play.
At least gorgeous now understands what I am trying to say. It makes aiming the LMG easier <i>up close</i> but as a tradeoff can't hit things further away. So, once again it's simply a tradeoff and would only change the gameplay not the skill... the reason I want that is because skulk vs marine combat is clearly imbalanced at the moment.
Maybe my viewpoint will change once 10 bullets are killing skulks and mouselag is not an issue. To claim that other players don't have this problem is simply pretentious and blatant elitism. Or you have a super computer and have a skewed opinion on this games balance.
Also I couldn't disagree with you more about raw skill vs experience. An experienced player doesn't even need to have that great of aim if he has superior tactics and positioning. It's all about timing and angles and knowing where other players are going to be. This all comes from experience not reflex. Reflex shares a large part because you can do more with less experience but nothing can outweigh experience. My aiming skill is probably leveled off now over the years but what I keep getting better at is tactics and being a smart player. I outsmart other people, and exploit my surroundings. Let's also not forget that experience carries over into new games as well. I might have 3 hours of NS but 4000 in CS and I'll still have more FPS and gaming experience than someone whose played 50 hours of NS.
But once again this is simply my opinion vs yours. But yours is more elite of course... since you never miss and everyone you know has superior aim.
I get it. You think I suck. Keep it that way because it gives me an advantage on the playing field ;)
P.S. The LMG spread has been increased since earlier betas. Go on an ask someone for confirmation because I noticed it for sure.
I never once said you suck or that I never missed.
Your suggestion makes the game easier. Period. You might as well be arguing for some slight autoaim correction like you get in xbox games. It would have the same effect as increasing spread and increasing damage to compensate.
This has nothing to do with your skill, my skill, or anyone else's level of skill. It's just a bad idea to raise the skill floor and lower the skill ceiling in a supposedly competitive game. This is especially true in this situation because there is no gameplay benefit. It is simply replacing player skill with game mechanics. Never a good idea.
You can increase the spread of your rifle by shooting a bit off your target, since you have good aim it shouldn't be hard to do. Just shake a bit your crosshair around the skulk instead of tracking it perfectly, it has exactly the same effect (i.e. bullets shooting randomly in a cone of fire) than increased spread.
There actually wasnt any elitism in my post, nor was i referring to my own aim, or really anyone's (it was a general statement). Compared to some of the NS1 players I played/trained with my aim is complete ###### (they like reminding me of it daily). Regarding rewarding twitch aim versus tracking NS is all about tracking and twitch reactions. If you cant react to the situation quickly enough it doesnt matter if your tracking is perfect.. There is also a high degree of movement for evasion while keeping your aim and also situational awareness and reactions to target the bigger threat first and/or using your environment for an advantage.
If the aiming style was like CS the lmg would basically be a shotgun (which is in the game already...), where a quick burst downed a skulk... I could personally never see that being balanced unless the clip size was very small, or you could only burst fire the gun (or some other weird mechanic).
Now this part will sound elitist but it honestly sounds like you want the game to be more like CS because you have so much experience in that game and want to benefit from that.
<!--quoteo(post=1947435:date=Jun 28 2012, 04:50 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 28 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There actually wasnt any elitism in my post, nor was i referring to my own aim, or really anyone's (it was a general statement). Compared to some of the NS1 players I played/trained with my aim is complete ###### (they like reminding me of it daily). Regarding rewarding twitch aim versus tracking NS is all about tracking and twitch reactions. If you cant react to the situation quickly enough it doesnt matter if your tracking is perfect.. There is also a high degree of movement for evasion while keeping your aim and also situational awareness and reactions to target the bigger threat first and/or using your environment for an advantage.
If the aiming style was like CS the lmg would basically be a shotgun (which is in the game already...), where a quick burst downed a skulk... I could personally never see that being balanced unless the clip size was very small, or you could only burst fire the gun (or some other weird mechanic).
Now this part will sound elitist but it honestly sounds like you want the game to be more like CS because you have so much experience in that game and want to benefit from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I also thought of the problem of having the LMG being too good up close, but then I realized you are only ever engaging things up close. So, why are we left with a weapon that's only good for medium range targets when everything we fight is jumping at our ankles? You can be good at this game no matter what mechanics are in it. I'm sure we can all do great with the trace aiming. My argument is that it does not <i><b>make sense.</b></i>
The LMG used to only have a 30 round magazine in alpha then they changed it for some odd reason. Make the LMG more powerful but limit it's ammo. It's only good for killing 1 skulk at a time anyway so why not let players kill skulks FASTER but make them carry less ammo. It would be balanced and in my opinion keep the gameplay fast and precise like in CS. That is what I would like to see... right now killing skulks is tedious and largely luck based. It's redundant to have to put 10 rounds into a little wall-walking dog. I am not arguing for realism but it seems kinda redic to have to put 10 rounds into something that can fly and jump off walls at 200 MPH.
<!--quoteo(post=1947439:date=Jun 29 2012, 08:00 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 29 2012, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If i die to an lmg as a skulk, i want it to be because he actually aimed and tracked, not because he 'kinda aimed' in my general area. Where is all this spread nonsense coming from. It certainly isn't the answer to problems stemming from performance.
*edit* oh yea, you totally forgot about every other alien lifeform when talking about 30 round mag being balanced
<!--quoteo(post=1947439:date=Jun 28 2012, 06:00 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 28 2012, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... you are only ever engaging things up close. So, why are we left with a weapon that's only good for medium range targets when everything we fight is jumping at our ankles?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you move in pairs, or at least with another marine than just yourself, you will then target the Alien attacking your partner('s ankles), while he targets the Alien attacking you - resulting in both of you firing at medium range (and hopefully killing both attackers).
If the hit detection and performance can get to levels that somewhat match NS1 (atleast on the default level) then i suspect you will see skulks dieing very quickly to good players. Good players in NS1 with its relatively similar damage values could feasibly kill 5 to 6 skulks with lmg/pistol without reloading.
<!--quoteo(post=1947443:date=Jun 28 2012, 05:09 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Jun 28 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you move in pairs, or at least with another marine than just yourself, you will then target the Alien attacking your partner('s ankles), while he targets the Alien attacking you - resulting in both of you firing at medium range (and hopefully killing both attackers).
That is how I see it being designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like riveting gameplay. Baitfest 2.0 rather than relying on your own aim and reflex.
<!--quoteo(post=1947443:date=Jun 29 2012, 08:09 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Jun 29 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you move in pairs, or at least with another marine than just yourself, you will then target the Alien attacking your partner('s ankles), while he targets the Alien attacking you - resulting in both of you firing at medium range (and hopefully killing both attackers).
That is how I see it being designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The most core element of NS. That which sets NS apart from generic deathmatch FPS. Hallowed be thy gameplay.
This tactic is an inevitable response to a melee vs ranged asymetry. It's also awesome because of the way it rewards teamwork. We like teamwork.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1947824:date=Jun 29 2012, 10:13 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jun 29 2012, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah, that's just what you want people to believe. People like you will do anything to try to silence my opinions / ideas<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not sure if trolling or just deranged.
<!--quoteo(post=1947840:date=Jun 29 2012, 05:04 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 29 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if trolling or just deranged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
k, think whatever your little mind wants. it wont make you anymore right calling me a troll and deranged cause i know youre wrong :)
this thread really does have a lot of negativity in it though. im sure if this community spent less time criticizing eachother and the dev team that a lot more progress could be had. i think its egos and entitlement that plague this forum.
for what resources and time uwe has they have put together a great game by anyones rights.
I just got called an idiot today in a gather for having a personal opinion about gameplay. we all have our own opinions and viewpoints and calling eachother idiots only makes other people angry and achieves nothing.
in the end it doesn't matter who has a more valid opinion... only that fruitful discussion is seen and pondered by the development team. we are all here to help them are we not? how is calling me an idiot and a troll helping? i have an opinion and a view and everyone else does as well.
if uwe constantly is getting cliquey / insider opinions then they are only seeing half the picture. i understand how much you guys love and want to defend this game and you feel like you are a big part. you feel like you have more right than others to express your own opinion.
well that isn't fair. and when someone has a differing opinion you go to the elitist viewpoint, or to the default viewpoint. never stopping to think of change or out of the box ideas. that is the bread and butter of ns games. they are out of the box thinking. crazy ideas are welcomed here and going off the trodden path is ENCOURAGED.
yall need to take a xanax and chill when people have an idea that directly disrupts your belief system.
nobody is personally attacking you or how you think (aside from people do that to me constantly).
i have a unique view of this game because i am a unique person. i am not a sheep and id like to think i am a free-thinker and creative minded.
well videogames are very logic based... so a lot of people who play them will be the same and have tunnel vision on what they believe is true about games. just because someone has a view that comes out of left field doesnt mean you have to call them unserious or deranged. its really a pretty cheap way to try to soil someones reputation. if you really know more and have better ideas then go forth...
i see no point in simply trying to slow down another person endeavour... its becoming to look like campaign time in washington. worry about yourself.
as a developer who seeks improvement... all criticism should be accepted as valid. even the when the uncomfortable topics come up about hit reg and fps... because it gives the devs an overall picture of things and how people FEEL about the game.
if one person thinks something sucks the devs want to hear it. someone else might think it is amazing. well it's the DEVELOPERS game and they can take both opinions and compromise. this is how good games are made... they appeal to a larger audience... to do this they need <b>all types of feedback</b>
because in the end the developers want to leave a lasting impact on their players. to do this they need to pull our emotions into this game. get our hearts racing and make us remember what it was like to play. they want to hit our emotions... and if people arent FEELING good about something it usually cant be fixed by adjusting numbers and balances but rather adding different experiences into the game.
this game gets to my emotions a lot and i want to see it hitting the positive ones more often. it makes me teary eyed thinking about how hard the developers worked on this game... and how much more recognition they deserve. these guys are ###### amazing and are real heroes of gaming. i dont want anyone to ever forget that
Comments
Nah. 210 isn't the most playable, but it's a good groundwork to fix up. A lot of the problems are caused by high tres income and low cost. When the costs are evened out (lower tres income speed and increased building/upgrade cost) then the game will play much better.
Problems like nanoshields and arcs are half res income/cost problems and half the actual mechanic. Arcs have some problems, but it was exasperated in b210 by the first incarnation of the new res system which caused teams to float huge amounts of res after finishing upgrades earlier than ever. Thus, bigger arc trains even in relatively normal games.
Interesting with the JP. I guess the speed with different weapons out/weapons carried from walking/sprinting is being carried over to the jetpack. In general, when I need to cover a large distance, I switch to my axe to go slightly faster. Good to know this will also work with the JP.
What you are describing is one of the most beautiful mechanics from NS1. It's a shame you don't understand it and are willing to dismiss it just because you have problems playing marine at the moment.
1. It adds a skill element that can be learnt and improved on through practice -- either by parasiting while you're closing the distance towards the marine or by parasiting if you lose contact with the marine during an engagement.
2. It adds another incentive to use parasite (the original reason why it was implemented in version 3.0 of NS1).
It's a shame parasites can be healed by medpacks though, as it is a massive disincentive to using parasites for anything other than pure combat.
3. It helps balance weapon upgrades vs. armor upgrades. Before A0 = 2bites + parasite / A1 = 3 bites was implemented in NS1, good marine commanders never, ever, upgraded W1 first. Everything was pre-decided because that upgrade from A0 = 2 bites to A1 = 3 bites was so much more powerful than the W1 upgrade. After the change, the upgrades were more balanced, which allowed for new build orders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad you could clarify with me about the difference between real life and videogaames. It was well needed.
To put it in simple terms... there is "spray" and there is "stream". They both have their advantages... one is better for stuff that is at a distance (Which skulks never are when they are attacking you). And one is better for things that are up close to you (Like skulks). I see the guns mechanics in NS2 to be a "Stream" like the lightning gun in quake. Amazing weapon if you have very high accuracy as you have to twitch and trace at the same time. Lots of fun. But the lightning gun gets much harder to aim accurately the closer and faster a target is to you. Then there is the m4a1 in counter-strike which is a wall of bullets or a "spray". It's more reliant on how fast you aim over how accurately you can trace. I prefer that style of gun mechanics because it gives an edge to players who have fast reaction times. Just the way maps are designed with walls so close together (Giving skulks plenty to get speed boosts) and tech points so close together compared to ns1... marines are almost always engaging skulks in close quarters where the lightning gun mechanics are not beneficial to the player. Maybe it's just because of leap at the moment but it seems to me that almost all of my kills on skulks are at point blank range.
Anyone who played counter-strike should understand this concept. We are basically arguing 2 different philosophies... you are defending the one implemented by the devs... which is give players perfect accuracy but demand perfect aim. Well that is all nice and everything... perhaps if we had proper reg and FPS it wouldn't be such a big deal to have it that way. But right now having perfect accuracy is pretty difficult for people with performance issues. For the greater good you could perhaps tweak the LMG to have more spread and more damage as well to make up for the apparent "lack of accuracy". It doesn't really matter how you balance it as long as it's balanced and works. I'm sure you will still disagree but that is fine because we are all entitled to our own <i><b>opinions</b></i>.
Of course anything that has less spread will be more "accurate" that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the gun mechanics could be modeled more "realistically" and more conventionally and give a tradeoff instead. I feel this way because right now... at least for me perfect accuracy isn't always possible. I know it probably will never be changed, but I did write a topic about bulletspread a few months back and the devs did actually end up increasing the spread by a substantial amount. Whether or not they did that due to my idea is unknown to me but, I do know they increased it.
I honestly just feel like skulks take too many bullets to kill, and am trying to find a solution. So, you can all pin it on me that I am a bad player or try to come up with other possible solutions. To me and others the skulks seem to take 30 bullets to kill. The question is what is the cause? Is it reg? Or is it the gun mechanics? I am not a game engineer so I cannot tell. I can only give my opinion on what I think could work. Anyone may feel free to think I am idiot for my ideas.
Oh, and to the second part of your post about parasites. That is mostly just your opinion. I think parasiting people is a bad gameplay mechanic... but you show how it benefits other aspects of the game. Well that is great but even so I still think it's not fun being on the other side of the parasite. Trust me... I love moving 200 MPH into marine start... parasiting two marines and leap over to them and biting their feet. It's great fun. So maybe leave it in... but what do the marines have as a counter? Nothing really. Armor 1... but you can't get that for a while and they will have leap to go with it.
I really think parasite is a really powerful and good thing to use... obviously. I just don't see the tradeoff to using it. You still have enough energy to leap and spam bite even after parasiting people. Something seems broken to me...
You can't simulate low spread with high spread however.
But, I don't think increasing bullet spread is a good idea..
And I've played every FPS ever made as well as having a 57:1 average kill to death ratio against Marine not to mention the 7,028,382 million hours that I have played of NS2 so I'm pretty sure my opinion outranks you all.
What can I say, I'm a God at playing FPS and and it is <b>very relevant to my argument</b>.
Or maybe I'm just insecure..
But, I don't think increasing bullet spread is a good idea..
And I've played every FPS ever made as well as having a 57:1 average kill to death ratio against Marine not to mention the 7,028,382 million hours that I have played of NS2 so I'm pretty sure my opinion outranks you all.
What can I say, I'm a God at playing FPS and and it is <b>very relevant to my argument</b>.
Or maybe I'm just insecure..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people just want to be heard.
True.
So heres a crazy question for the devs... how do bullets work in NS2? When I hold down mouse1 are there 50 seperate bullet events being sent to the server or is it handled as a damage per second rounded off to the nearest whole number to coincide with ammo?
Cause the lmg literally feels identical to the lightning gun in quake which didn't fire bullets but a stream of DPS.
Because I know how the LMG sound works like if you hold down mouse1 a loop of the firing sound will continue until you release. There is no individual sounds for each bullet event... so why not take that even further and make it so when you hold down mouse1 you simply do DPS rather than individual bullet damage... would that help with reg? Or are bullets actually treated as bullets?
At least thats how I would do it.
Now to the problem. The servers have problems to keep a steady tickrate (= game updates per second). So if the server can't calculate if you have hit or not, your bullet is lost. With a server tickrate of 30 you can only hit 30 bullets per second. With a server tickrate of 10 or 5... you get the picture.
Disclaimer: This is a strong simplification. Not taking into account, lag compensation etc.
You're arguing to increase the spread and increase the damage by an amount that will be somewhat equal to damage output by the current lmg versus a skulk. This basically just removes some skill from using the LMG. All this would do is make things easier. It increases the skill floor (so bad players are better) and lowers the skill ceiling (so good players are capped earlier).
I can't disagree more with a suggestion that makes aiming your LMG easier. All changes like this do is hurt competition and artificially cap player-skill.
Regarding hitting skulks the best advice I can give is that while you may be unable to track skulks perfectly, there are and will be people that can (within reason ofc), that is part of the skill in this game. This is not a game like DOTA where game knowledge is 9/10ths of the skill required to be good. NS blends movement skill and aiming skill, which is what leads it to be one of the most demanding games skillwise. There were people with hundreds/thousands of hours in NS1 that still could not match players with a fraction of that time played just because of their raw skill.
I can't disagree more with a suggestion that makes aiming your LMG easier. All changes like this do is hurt competition and artificially cap player-skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1947313:date=Jun 28 2012, 10:03 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 28 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as i know, LMG spread has never been increased, its actually been decreased to be more accurate than NS1 (versus a bigger skulk too). Obviously a majority of that deals with the hit detection and can be adjusted as that improves.
Regarding hitting skulks the best advice I can give is that while you may be unable to track skulks perfectly, there are and will be people that can (within reason ofc), that is part of the skill in this game. This is not a game like DOTA where game knowledge is 9/10ths of the skill required to be good. NS blends movement skill and aiming skill, which is what leads it to be one of the most demanding games skillwise. There were people with hundreds/thousands of hours in NS1 that still could not match players with a fraction of that time played just because of their raw skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get it... you think you have incredible aim and you have no problems so let's balance the game around you guys right? And no offense but I really don't need your advice on how to aim. My aiming is fine. I can kill plenty of things with the LMG current. I would rather have the aiming style be different and modeled like counter-strike. I guess that makes me a noob with bad aim.
It's not even that it makes aiming easier... I simply think twitch aiming at fast moving targets is much more appropriate than asking players to trace. Just the way the game is designed it seems very counter-intuitive. This is my opinion and you could balance the skulks differently with the LMG spread to make it just as skillbased if you really wanted to. It's just a different mechanic for a different style of play.
At least gorgeous now understands what I am trying to say. It makes aiming the LMG easier <i>up close</i> but as a tradeoff can't hit things further away. So, once again it's simply a tradeoff and would only change the gameplay not the skill... the reason I want that is because skulk vs marine combat is clearly imbalanced at the moment.
Maybe my viewpoint will change once 10 bullets are killing skulks and mouselag is not an issue. To claim that other players don't have this problem is simply pretentious and blatant elitism. Or you have a super computer and have a skewed opinion on this games balance.
Also I couldn't disagree with you more about raw skill vs experience. An experienced player doesn't even need to have that great of aim if he has superior tactics and positioning. It's all about timing and angles and knowing where other players are going to be. This all comes from experience not reflex. Reflex shares a large part because you can do more with less experience but nothing can outweigh experience. My aiming skill is probably leveled off now over the years but what I keep getting better at is tactics and being a smart player. I outsmart other people, and exploit my surroundings. Let's also not forget that experience carries over into new games as well. I might have 3 hours of NS but 4000 in CS and I'll still have more FPS and gaming experience than someone whose played 50 hours of NS.
But once again this is simply my opinion vs yours. But yours is more elite of course... since you never miss and everyone you know has superior aim.
I get it. You think I suck. Keep it that way because it gives me an advantage on the playing field ;)
P.S. The LMG spread has been increased since earlier betas. Go on an ask someone for confirmation because I noticed it for sure.
Your suggestion makes the game easier. Period. You might as well be arguing for some slight autoaim correction like you get in xbox games. It would have the same effect as increasing spread and increasing damage to compensate.
This has nothing to do with your skill, my skill, or anyone else's level of skill. It's just a bad idea to raise the skill floor and lower the skill ceiling in a supposedly competitive game. This is especially true in this situation because there is no gameplay benefit. It is simply replacing player skill with game mechanics. Never a good idea.
If the aiming style was like CS the lmg would basically be a shotgun (which is in the game already...), where a quick burst downed a skulk... I could personally never see that being balanced unless the clip size was very small, or you could only burst fire the gun (or some other weird mechanic).
Now this part will sound elitist but it honestly sounds like you want the game to be more like CS because you have so much experience in that game and want to benefit from that.
If the aiming style was like CS the lmg would basically be a shotgun (which is in the game already...), where a quick burst downed a skulk... I could personally never see that being balanced unless the clip size was very small, or you could only burst fire the gun (or some other weird mechanic).
Now this part will sound elitist but it honestly sounds like you want the game to be more like CS because you have so much experience in that game and want to benefit from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I also thought of the problem of having the LMG being too good up close, but then I realized you are only ever engaging things up close. So, why are we left with a weapon that's only good for medium range targets when everything we fight is jumping at our ankles? You can be good at this game no matter what mechanics are in it. I'm sure we can all do great with the trace aiming. My argument is that it does not <i><b>make sense.</b></i>
The LMG used to only have a 30 round magazine in alpha then they changed it for some odd reason. Make the LMG more powerful but limit it's ammo. It's only good for killing 1 skulk at a time anyway so why not let players kill skulks FASTER but make them carry less ammo. It would be balanced and in my opinion keep the gameplay fast and precise like in CS. That is what I would like to see... right now killing skulks is tedious and largely luck based. It's redundant to have to put 10 rounds into a little wall-walking dog. I am not arguing for realism but it seems kinda redic to have to put 10 rounds into something that can fly and jump off walls at 200 MPH.
If i die to an lmg as a skulk, i want it to be because he actually aimed and tracked, not because he 'kinda aimed' in my general area. Where is all this spread nonsense coming from. It certainly isn't the answer to problems stemming from performance.
*edit* oh yea, you totally forgot about every other alien lifeform when talking about 30 round mag being balanced
If you move in pairs, or at least with another marine than just yourself, you will then target the Alien attacking your partner('s ankles), while he targets the Alien attacking you - resulting in both of you firing at medium range (and hopefully killing both attackers).
That is how I see it being designed.
That is how I see it being designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like riveting gameplay. Baitfest 2.0 rather than relying on your own aim and reflex.
That is how I see it being designed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most core element of NS. That which sets NS apart from generic deathmatch FPS. Hallowed be thy gameplay.
This tactic is an inevitable response to a melee vs ranged asymetry. It's also awesome because of the way it rewards teamwork. We like teamwork.
Nah, that's just what you want people to believe.
Not sure if trolling or just deranged.
k, think whatever your little mind wants. it wont make you anymore right calling me a troll and deranged cause i know youre wrong :)
this thread really does have a lot of negativity in it though. im sure if this community spent less time criticizing eachother and the dev team that a lot more progress could be had. i think its egos and entitlement that plague this forum.
for what resources and time uwe has they have put together a great game by anyones rights.
I just got called an idiot today in a gather for having a personal opinion about gameplay. we all have our own opinions and viewpoints and calling eachother idiots only makes other people angry and achieves nothing.
in the end it doesn't matter who has a more valid opinion... only that fruitful discussion is seen and pondered by the development team. we are all here to help them are we not? how is calling me an idiot and a troll helping? i have an opinion and a view and everyone else does as well.
if uwe constantly is getting cliquey / insider opinions then they are only seeing half the picture. i understand how much you guys love and want to defend this game and you feel like you are a big part. you feel like you have more right than others to express your own opinion.
well that isn't fair. and when someone has a differing opinion you go to the elitist viewpoint, or to the default viewpoint. never stopping to think of change or out of the box ideas. that is the bread and butter of ns games. they are out of the box thinking. crazy ideas are welcomed here and going off the trodden path is ENCOURAGED.
yall need to take a xanax and chill when people have an idea that directly disrupts your belief system.
nobody is personally attacking you or how you think (aside from people do that to me constantly).
i have a unique view of this game because i am a unique person. i am not a sheep and id like to think i am a free-thinker and creative minded.
well videogames are very logic based... so a lot of people who play them will be the same and have tunnel vision on what they believe is true about games. just because someone has a view that comes out of left field doesnt mean you have to call them unserious or deranged. its really a pretty cheap way to try to soil someones reputation. if you really know more and have better ideas then go forth...
i see no point in simply trying to slow down another person endeavour... its becoming to look like campaign time in washington. worry about yourself.
as a developer who seeks improvement... all criticism should be accepted as valid. even the when the uncomfortable topics come up about hit reg and fps... because it gives the devs an overall picture of things and how people FEEL about the game.
if one person thinks something sucks the devs want to hear it. someone else might think it is amazing. well it's the DEVELOPERS game and they can take both opinions and compromise. this is how good games are made... they appeal to a larger audience... to do this they need <b>all types of feedback</b>
because in the end the developers want to leave a lasting impact on their players. to do this they need to pull our emotions into this game. get our hearts racing and make us remember what it was like to play. they want to hit our emotions... and if people arent FEELING good about something it usually cant be fixed by adjusting numbers and balances but rather adding different experiences into the game.
this game gets to my emotions a lot and i want to see it hitting the positive ones more often. it makes me teary eyed thinking about how hard the developers worked on this game... and how much more recognition they deserve. these guys are ###### amazing and are real heroes of gaming. i dont want anyone to ever forget that