@Kyhron Well the Marines need a debuff in theyr current state, with JP as standard equip from the 5min mark, with a high DMG SG in theyr hands, the unlimited nano, shield, meds, turrets and ARCs.
Had several games today where marines had central as 2. Base while the Aliens had everything else, but no chance to win against mass JP and Turrets. And with Armor 3 a skulk has a hard day even in 1vs1 that normally should be a win for the skulk but even beginners have it easy against a skulk. Even a Fade has almost no chance to kill a lone Marine if he has a shotgun.
Marines had so many buffs in the last patches while the Aliens go nerfed in many ways. The only chance to win a game as Aliens is to try to kill the CC in the first 5min, if they can not do it, the Marines just start turtling up.
The whole Alien side is overcomplicated in sense of researcches and Upgrades while the Marines have a way simpler and smaler techtree. Things like JP that should be a "rare" equip are standard and if fear the EXO.
The combat mechanic is pure chaos in this build, IMO.
It is hard to explain whats wrong with this build, because there are different variables that affect the overall feeling.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1946324:date=Jun 24 2012, 10:53 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jun 24 2012, 10:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I think they are at least aware of most of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup. Every single one. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1946480:date=Jun 25 2012, 10:30 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 25 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best part of ns1 was the simple marine vs skulk gameplay, and the sneaking around on large maps.
Personally I find Ns2 quite 'messy' in caparison.
It just feels like it is missing an 'X' factor that will turn a great game into and outstanding game... but I can't for the life of me put my finger on what that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1946323:date=Jun 24 2012, 09:43 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jun 24 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After some rounds on the new Build I need to say, that I can't enjoy NS2 in this build. The direction it is going is good but some things need to be changed.
Some points I wan't to bring up:
1. Skulk feels very slow and les controlable now. The walljump can't be used as a good travel method now. Leap is to "weak", but since you can have it at 1min mark I think it needs to be so. Also the feedback for xeno is hard to understand (I can say when I am gona explode). The delay between leap and bite is to high.
2. Lerk is to slow to be a realy ambusher. Poison bite is nice if the Marine com sleeps but with the actual resincome the poison is usless it should corrode the Armor instead of hurting the health, Lerk has gas for this. Umbra is ok and it will be changed anyway to be more usefull.
3. The Fade needs a lower delay from blink to swipe, it was changed some builds ago but since the armor ups are more effective now it should be removed again. The blink time should be increased by 2 or 3s, so he can escape better, but the delay between blinks should be increased as tradeoff. Vortex is ok and depends alot on the situation.
4. Gorge is ok, only the max of 3 Hydras and 10 clogs is a bit anoying sometimes, especially in bigger games or on small games. Maybe allow the com to research additional hydras/clogs on a mature hive. It's unfair that marines can spam longrange def and a Gorge can only place 3. It is the only realy def structures for the Aliens beside the melee range whip.
5. Onos feels alright, but there is still some major stuck problems sometimes when you evolve Onos.
6. Alien com is too stressfull. He needs to scout, mist, build, research, heal, disorient, replace cysts, move whips, microing Drifters/enzyme etc. Painfull gardening.
7. Resincome is very slow compared to Marines and also the number of total res used for ups is ways to big compared to the Marines. Make the researches cheaper but double the research time. The total res used to get all ups should be almost the same as Marines need and not almost twice as much.
8. Whips are usless as soon as 1 ARC is on the field even if it has bombard, the ARCs can be moved out of range and kill em, something a whip can not.
9. JP can fly way to long and are tooo fast to really be contered by any Alien, not sure if Spider will help.
10. ARCs are to powerfull. To high range too much DMG for a mobile unit. You need to get close with a whip and have LoS or a well organised geoup of Aliens, but as soon as the Marine com splits em in 2 or 3 groups Aliens can not deal with em. Also the AoE is to large. Most games are won by ARC spam.
11. Marines have a big advantage in getting res, they can have 4 or more RTs in a very short time with nanoconstruct, while Aliens need ages to cysts and build the RT. Do faster resticks for aliens but lower for marines, increase the harvester costs but extractorcosts stay where they are. Asymetry.
12. Overall resincome compared to used Tres to get all ups as Marines is to high and ends in spamfest of any kind. Lot of things need to be more expensive especially turrets and ARCs
13. There in no more early game and everything feels to fast. It is more rush for RTs in the beginning and the start spaming. Tacticas as Marines are almost inexistant and almost everything the Aliens do can be contered by spaming Meds, Shield, Turrets or ARCs. If the gorge has hard limits for his things the Marines also should have for ARCs and turrets. Aliens can't use the res to gain an advantage with buildings because of high mobile ARCs. 200 res are gone in 10s. While aliens can't do the same with bilebomb.
14. As Marine your only job is to get RTs, the rest does the com with ARCs and turrets, I often feel usless on the Field.
15. Marine shouldn't be able to sprint, they are more mobile than most Aliens. And with JP you can be linke a fly that avoids every slap.
16. The game performance is bad in this build because of the many res you have to use, ending in GL and ARC only playstyle.
There more points but I am to drunk to weite em all down. Build 210 feels like onslaught on UT 2k4. Hope you can change som estuff for 211 so it feels a bit slower and that the AI units lose on importance and the players are the key to win again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: skulks are fine, I met some annoying skilled skulks players that where fast enough and very annoying to hit movement form wall to ceiling to wall jump around and eat my but, skulks fine you just sucks.
2: Lerks are fine, still annoying ######, met some skilled skulks platers that dunno how almoste always hit with spikes while manouver very fast around, gues you skills as lerk sucks to.
3: Fades are still strong, met view stupid fades I could kill in 1 clip of main marine gun but most fades still kill me very fast.
4: gorge is boring as hell, yes can be fun with bile bomb a marines base but thats all you do with gorge, bile bomb and heal onos ass, hydra still useless, 3 is way to view, still prever cost hydra and unlimited.
5: stuck in general sucks, no matter marine or any life form evolution getting stuck just sucks should have method to unstuck you with out killing your self.
6: Go try marine commanding, aliens is cakewalk if one commanding can be stressfull is marine unless alien team sucks and marines are actualy listing, even if team listens but got very strong alien team its still stressfull.
7: Wait till marines get all there upgrades wich you already got, then they need spend more resourses as aliens and will be equal.
8: Whips are like turrets, and your arc is your gorge bilbombing and its aoe, dont hear us marines complain that gorge is to mobile and kill our base form save distance and our turrets cant hit them either. there strong and weaknesses, go kill arcs with your team, arc weak point is movement when unprotected and need to be deployed.
9: Lerks can fly for way to long, unlimited with out getting tired, so your complain is based on nothing. would love to see lerks need energy to even fly, so you can whine more.
10: so far I know arc do not do aoe damage, dunno for sure but mostly more then 1 arc firing so cant be for sure unless you test it with 1 arc. and if you let marine commander even build that many arcs and even split them to attack form 2 sides it means they also got split there marine force to protect them, focus on 1 get it down then rush to second arc group and your done, depents on your team.
11: Depents on your alien commander, yes you will be slower with tech upgrades if you want fast resoursers but same is for the marines, nano construck cost resoursers to use, marines need build buildings while aliens only need a cysts and everything builded automaticly, this more sounds like commanding choise issue and aliens not protecting there cysts then income issue.
If you want fast resourse towers you get slower upgrades, want upgrades you get less resourse towers, same for marines, invalid argument.
12: Can say the same for aliens whips and cysts spamming, yes if you got to many resourse towers and swimming in Team ress then something enemy team did wrong, this stroy is for both sides that got to many resourse towers, learn get enemy resourse towers down and protect yours once you got all upgrades both team can spam stuff, like whips, turrets ect ect ect, all depents on who got upperhand and can keep the upperhand.
13: Again story we swim in resourses, make tons of whips, cysts smap marine base and plant them and watch the show, 2 or 3 gorge can aoe down marine base in very fast pace, matter of team work.
early game, whel there is, but if one team graps way more resoursers then other team and other team dont want to or cant prevent enemy team keeping them then yes one team will grow faster in upgrades then other and one side will struggle more as other gets stronger, its very taticfull but one team fails the other will benefit form it. goes for both sides.
14: Depents on your commander and your team, if you got team only runs around mindless then yes you should not do more then make RT, rest requires a brain and if you function worse then a mac then your useless, I mostly command try to limit the use of turrets and only use arc if realy no progress to kill them otherwise and use turrets only when aliens are pushing realy hard and marines are more bushy using phase gate form 1 place to other to do anything els then defend.
15:Lerks ever heared of it, sprint aint very good, its handy to move form 1 place to other a tiny bit faster with limit, fades, lerks, skulks move way faster by base and onos can rush straigh way can be seen as onos sprint and got upgrades that improve alien movement speed that is very stupid if you see onos run faster then speed of sound.
Hole JP b###### is utter noncense, get lerks get them down or lure them in arears that not make them able to fligh high.
16: last but not least, also team issue, one team is stronger, swimming in resourses and nothing els to do then spam turrets arc, med packs and other ######, same for aliens cyst, whips and other buildings spam.
Preformance whise, yes this does take presure on the server, one server takes it beter then other, one pc takes it better then other, 1 options is simple, limit the use of turrets, whips, cysts ect, for expample could limit cysts to number needed to cover the hole map + view extra, this mean aliens cant spam more cysts then nessery on certain place, draw back will be bad alien commander placing cysts wrong will cut him self on expanding, limit whips to nessery limit to protect an arear form gernade bombarment, and arc should be limited as well, no need to have 50 of them, turrets could be limited to xx per powernode side, draw back for marine commander would be bad placed turrets will be useless and cant make more.
Client wise realy need improvements as well but I bet dev are more bushy to finish the game, balance it and then turn on tuning the engine and preformance.
most of your arguments are based on team, one team suck other will profit visa versa its not game issue, its player issue.
I find 210 most balanced build so far, both side are equaly strong even marines missing most of there stuff, and yes team with more skilled players will win, no balance will chance that.
Could you pls stop insulting me? The only thing I've read is that I suck... Dam do I really need to read this from a person that plays this game for some months? I am for sure not a noob or sucking at any class, alot of PLL know me on the Servers but you don't. Be more polite than a kid...
Can't you just be more on topic instead of insulting posters? If you can't don't post anything nexttime! And btw thos speedy skulks are a bug on high speed gains on ramps and several props.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Aliens have multiple problems in this build:
A) Fade lose his role as an harasser, he is an disabler now. Where is the fearfull scary fade gone? 2 good marines with lvl1 armor+shotgun and a fade has no chance.
In theory it was: 1 Marine vs 1 skulk= skulk win 2 Marines vs 1 skulk= marine win
Now we have: 1 Marine vs 1 Fade = 50-50 chance 2 Marines vs 1 Fade= Marine win
This is cause: better hit detection of shotgun, fadeblink is visible and cost much energy, reduced swipedamage (4 hits vs lvl3 armor) I only talk about fade vs marines here, not vs structures (vortex) Most players save for onos now and i see less fades on the field since some builds.
B) Aliens have nothing effective vs jetpackers. Sure, every class can kill an Jetpacker, but u have normally 7-8 on the field. And this is under the 10 min mark normally.
C) Aliens have nothing effective vs arctrains and turretfarms. Sure you can disable arcs with vortex, but in this time you cannot destroy them. So you just get some time.
D) Marines swimming in t.res, and that with "only" 4 rts. Swimming in res= Spam of everything (arcs,turrets, meds, nano)
Btw the game "feels" balanced maybe for some people and statistics telling the same. But thats not true. Nearly noone in my friendslist play ns2 atm (and i have an huge friendlist with ppl playing since alpha) So we have many new players right now and they have not enough knowing about gamemechanics.
Strange thing is, the build seem the work better in competitive enviroment. But there are normally less static structures. Like this show: <a href="http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/322597103" target="_blank">http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/322597103</a>
To summarize: Seem to work for clanmatches but not on public servers.
I dont like the fact, that aliens need more teamplay to win a game than marines now. And that is without exo.
I think the majority of the problems stems from the lack of scaling for Aliens, while Marines continue to get more damage and more armor as the game progresses. And because Marine players cried waterfalls that Aliens were so overpowered that they were hit repeatedly with a nerf bat and now we are seeing the repercussions.
<!--quoteo(post=1946502:date=Jun 25 2012, 11:28 AM:name=-Azona-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jun 25 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1: skulks are fine, I met some annoying skilled skulks players that where fast enough and very annoying to hit movement form wall to ceiling to wall jump around and eat my but, skulks fine you just sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks can be very fast but like I said they're extremely glitchy at the moment still (I can still get a quick-boost whilst leaping from the wall to the floor and continue hopping long at that pace.) <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: Lerks are fine, still annoying ######, met some skilled skulks platers that dunno how almoste always hit with spikes while manouver very fast around, guess you skills as lerk sucks to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks are probably the least-skilled alien at the moment, sadly; I've always kept away from the class but played one-day to see that you can just spam spikes and finish with a bite at most marines unless they're nano'd and med-spammed for more than a few seconds straight. If some Lerk-player just throw themselves in the face of a marine whilst umbra'ing and volleying spikes it seems to drop performance horribly for said marine as well. My real gripe with the Lerk is that it's currently the most 'advanced' unit on the alien-team (in terms of countering; a small and strong [Skulk] flying unit with ranged and melee attacks that can temporarily disable sentries and give other aliens an Umbra 'shield' cloud.) This is mostly down to hatred for the thing since performance on both clients and the server can be wobbly making Lerks some of the most annoying aliens whether mediocre or pro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: Fades are still strong, met few stupid fades I could kill in 1 clip of main marine gun but most fades still kill me very fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades are pretty strong until Marines get lvl 3. Once that happens shotguns can kill them in two successful hits or two/three-quarts of a single clip with the rifle (Nades can also destroy them.) It doesn't help when the Marine armour stacks up so much that the Fade can't simply chip away at it without running in and leaving every second (though these are considered 'pro-players' because they'll only deal one swipe and leave :L) Honestly I'm thinking the Fade should lose its Vortex ability for another ranged attack like the Acid-rocket even though it wasn't exactly a fun mechanic on its own.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4: gorge is boring as hell, yes can be fun with bile bomb a marines base but thats all you do with gorge, bile bomb and heal onos ass, hydra still useless, 3 is way to view, still prever cost hydra and unlimited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QQ. I want the Gorge to be more useful too. Even when Bile Bombing you're nothing more than a glass-cannon where you can't escape Marines unless you're right next to a swarm of alien-defenses.
Look at these three screenshots from one of todays public games and you'll know the biggest problem of build 210 (and a bit less in the previous builds):
Guessed it? No, no excessive turretspam. Only about 5-6. <b>The problem</b> is all upgrades (and JPs and all weapons) and ARCs being available at 1 CC and 1 extractor. I emailed Charlie about this a week ago but he didn't answer - quite usual on negative feedback. And now don't tell me "team up, all onos and rush them, lolol easymore" . NO, this simply doesn't work in public games, I'm happy if half the team listens to me as a comm in pubs.
This problem was always there but in 210 it is much more annoying than before. While this "only" happens in about 15% of all games these games take up at least 30% of my total time in NS2. It usually ends in a massive alien ragequit because it's extremely annoying and frustrating to fight against that - like running against a wall that is slowly moving forwards, crushing you in the end and there's nothing you can do about it.
<b>The solution</b> could be so simple. Limit something to number of CCs/Hives. I suggest this: Scale weapon/armor/carapace/regeneration upgrades with number of ccs/hives: lost your 2nd CC? -> your w3/a3 is now only worth 10% extra damage/20 armor carapace: armor = classBaseArmor + (carapace.isActive() ? (numberOfHives*classExtraArmor+classExtraStaticArmor) : 0) - where static armor is a bit extra in order to keep cara useful at hive 1.
I suggest values around 8 for SkulkClassExtraArmor and 5 for SkulkClassExtraStaticArmor here, so skulks with cara at hive 1 would have 23 armor, 31 at hive 2 and so on. This would also fix carapace being too strong at hive 1 and make alien turtling even less effective.
ARCs also need fixing, just compare them to whips with bombard: - cost less (20 vs 30 res) - do not need infestation to fire (!) - can fire through walls - higher radius - cannot fight players (the 10 extra res should cover this) - takes twice as much player time to kill them (assuming a mature whip) - cannot fight back bile bombs like the whip tosses back grenades. Tossing back grenades doesn't work properly though since the rapid fire GL change. - can move much faster (due to whips needing infest to move fast) - more damage and HUGE hitrange instead of (almost) single target damage of bombard
Solution: Make them require LOS, decrease health a bit and reduce radius to whip bombard radius. Could also remove the infest requirement to root whips...
Lol, unroot the billion whips and push the base with them ? But I guess 2 arcs are enough to destroy them all...
So builds ago it was the standard way of finishing the game as alien, build 10 whips and move them into marine base. Was an elegant solution to the stalemates.
Whips cannot root / bombard when not on infestation. And even a single ARC is enough to clean all infest in a large radius as you can see quite well on that screenshot. I did try to spam their base with cysts at one point but gave up when I saw 30 (unbuilt) cysts being killed by a single ARC hit.... That hit has a huge hit range. Anyway, there were grenades all over the place, the cysts had no chance to finish building. Even if whips would not need infest to root - 2 or more ARCs would "lol" at them, killing them through a wall before the first bombard hits anything.
They never had less than one ARC deployed there eventhough I (the alien comm) decided to go gorge and bile them from pipe junction...... Didn't work out due to excessive GL spam.
alien comm definitely needs a way to help the team make a push end game. if the marine commander has as much as a single ARC deployed with a marine or two in base, whip army isn't an option.
Suggestion: 4th hive upgrade/research ability that's only available after getting crag shade and shift. whatever it is is solely for the commander's use to finish off a turtled base with.
<!--quoteo(post=1946579:date=Jun 25 2012, 07:17 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Jun 25 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->alien comm definitely needs a way to help the team make a push end game. if the marine commander has as much as a single ARC deployed with a marine or two in base, whip army isn't an option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am hoping what they need is coordination...not more nerfs or buffs If they were given two waypoints 1 = attack 2 = defend the aliens could be much more coordinated.
<!--quoteo(post=1946323:date=Jun 24 2012, 12:43 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jun 24 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After some rounds on the new Build I need to say, that I can't enjoy NS2 in this build. The direction it is going is good but some things need to be changed.
Some points I wan't to bring up:
1. Skulk feels very slow and les controlable now. The walljump can't be used as a good travel method now. Leap is to "weak", but since you can have it at 1min mark I think it needs to be so. Also the feedback for xeno is hard to understand (I can say when I am gona explode). The delay between leap and bite is to high.
2. Lerk is to slow to be a realy ambusher. Poison bite is nice if the Marine com sleeps but with the actual resincome the poison is usless it should corrode the Armor instead of hurting the health, Lerk has gas for this. Umbra is ok and it will be changed anyway to be more usefull.
3. The Fade needs a lower delay from blink to swipe, it was changed some builds ago but since the armor ups are more effective now it should be removed again. The blink time should be increased by 2 or 3s, so he can escape better, but the delay between blinks should be increased as tradeoff. Vortex is ok and depends alot on the situation.
4. Gorge is ok, only the max of 3 Hydras and 10 clogs is a bit anoying sometimes, especially in bigger games or on small games. Maybe allow the com to research additional hydras/clogs on a mature hive. It's unfair that marines can spam longrange def and a Gorge can only place 3. It is the only realy def structures for the Aliens beside the melee range whip.
5. Onos feels alright, but there is still some major stuck problems sometimes when you evolve Onos.
6. Alien com is too stressfull. He needs to scout, mist, build, research, heal, disorient, replace cysts, move whips, microing Drifters/enzyme etc. Painfull gardening.
7. Resincome is very slow compared to Marines and also the number of total res used for ups is ways to big compared to the Marines. Make the researches cheaper but double the research time. The total res used to get all ups should be almost the same as Marines need and not almost twice as much.
8. Whips are usless as soon as 1 ARC is on the field even if it has bombard, the ARCs can be moved out of range and kill em, something a whip can not.
9. JP can fly way to long and are tooo fast to really be contered by any Alien, not sure if Spider will help.
10. ARCs are to powerfull. To high range too much DMG for a mobile unit. You need to get close with a whip and have LoS or a well organised geoup of Aliens, but as soon as the Marine com splits em in 2 or 3 groups Aliens can not deal with em. Also the AoE is to large. Most games are won by ARC spam.
11. Marines have a big advantage in getting res, they can have 4 or more RTs in a very short time with nanoconstruct, while Aliens need ages to cysts and build the RT. Do faster resticks for aliens but lower for marines, increase the harvester costs but extractorcosts stay where they are. Asymetry.
12. Overall resincome compared to used Tres to get all ups as Marines is to high and ends in spamfest of any kind. Lot of things need to be more expensive especially turrets and ARCs
13. There in no more early game and everything feels to fast. It is more rush for RTs in the beginning and the start spaming. Tacticas as Marines are almost inexistant and almost everything the Aliens do can be contered by spaming Meds, Shield, Turrets or ARCs. If the gorge has hard limits for his things the Marines also should have for ARCs and turrets. Aliens can't use the res to gain an advantage with buildings because of high mobile ARCs. 200 res are gone in 10s. While aliens can't do the same with bilebomb.
14. As Marine your only job is to get RTs, the rest does the com with ARCs and turrets, I often feel usless on the Field.
15. Marine shouldn't be able to sprint, they are more mobile than most Aliens. And with JP you can be linke a fly that avoids every slap.
16. The game performance is bad in this build because of the many res you have to use, ending in GL and ARC only playstyle.
There more points but I am to drunk to weite em all down. Build 210 feels like onslaught on UT 2k4. Hope you can change som estuff for 211 so it feels a bit slower and that the AI units lose on importance and the players are the key to win again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am to drunk to weite em all down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
All of your points are on point. I've been saying this for like, the LONGEST time now.
My biggest concern is Jetpacks and a respectable counter, along with the delayed attack for Fade after a blink.
2nd concern is the GL/ARC spam. It really isn't fun tbh.
I just stopped playing a few days after the build released. It really just isn't fun to be an alien OR a marine right now.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Swipe delay after Fade Blink has been removed and imo it didnt solve the issue <b>enough</b>. The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1946585:date=Jun 26 2012, 01:40 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 26 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am hoping what they need is coordination...not more nerfs or buffs If they were given two waypoints 1 = attack 2 = defend the aliens could be much more coordinated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure coordinated attacks may help, but not really in build 210. 30s after the coordinated attack all marines are back with fresh JP and weapons. Also it doesn't work in PUB.
Was Alien com yesterday and provided as much info I could by scouting with my Dungeon Keeper hand, the response I got from 2 players was I talk too much and they muted me. Also a group of SGs can clear out 2-3 Onos without problems and if they have JP you can not even flee.
We pushed Central with Lerks umbraing, Onoses stomping and smashing, fades using vortex and gorges healing, we got destroyed in less than 1 min because the marines had way better mobility than the Aliens in the end.
@penguin Just because there are placeholder icons for possible upgrades, it doesn't mean that they will actually get into the game. Those icons existed a really really long time now(i remember seeing them even before arcs got into the game), and the problem why they are not in the game is not that it would be hard to actually code it. I'd say nothing to be concerned about... (if devs wouldnt also think that it might be a bit op they could have easily implemented it by now) -----
After trying out the ns2b mod, which also removes the swipe delay... i agree - thats not enough to solve the jp issue. I ll keep my comments on the planned change for after 211... (since it sounds pretty much set in stone for the patch anyway)
<!--quoteo(post=1946501:date=Jun 25 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jun 25 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exosuits ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know you're joking, but anyway: If early game is short and people want more early game, focusing on the exosuit is backwards. What the Marines needs is the opposite of the exosuit if anything. Maybe Rubber Men. Uhm... :) Well, I know I'm not very psyched for the exo right now. I want more early game. More LMG's and shotties, more Skulks and Lerks, less structures on the maps.
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2012
WHy not add more symmetry into the game like in the old ns1 days, you had to fight your way for more map control and to maintain more than one hive to get more possibilites to win your opponent. More hive gives more lifeforms.
<b>No it's not repetable</b> to do this in each game, because the actually gameplay is dynamic, combat and so on. At current beta stage, unlocking all lifeform to one hive was a big mistake. Although I'm crossing my fingers that the beta testers and the dev team will find a good solution.
<b>Just an quick example:</b> Having more then one CC will give possiblity to more upgrades, like be able to build arcs? So now marines like aliens has to stroggle to maintain more cc?
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1946695:date=Jun 26 2012, 08:54 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Jun 26 2012, 08:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Just an quick example:</b> Having more then one CC will give possiblity to more upgrades, like be able to build arcs? So now marines like aliens has to stroggle to maintain more cc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was implemented in one of the early builds, so that marines could not research advanced weapons until they had two CC.
<!--quoteo(post=1946622:date=Jun 25 2012, 11:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 25 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swipe delay after Fade Blink has been removed and imo it didnt solve the issue <b>enough</b>. The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imo the problem is also that even with jp rush strats, A1 suffices in making the marines considerably more resilient vs fades and other lifeforms. Then when A3 rolls out, you find yourself with JP rines that are not only incredibly mobile, they are also pretty damn tanky. Maybe JPs should come at an armour trade-off, either that or they're going to have to cut into mobility a bit. (Alternatively reinstating A2 3 swipes could work as well, vs early JP strategies at least)
<!--quoteo(post=1946714:date=Jun 27 2012, 01:51 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 27 2012, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe JPs should come at an armour trade-off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 Great idea :)
Yeah, one of the major issues with jetpacks is they are dirt, dirt cheap to individual marines, and offer absolutely no negative side effect. Buying weapons offers at least some negative side effects (Shotguns have less range, reload slowly which can be problematic, GL's aren't so useful for super close range combat, don't have much ammo, etc) and I'm guessing the exo will have some kind of mobility disadvantage? Jetpacks, being one of the cheapest items available, and just so good in every single situation versus every single alien lifeform make them awkward. As a marine, unless we have like 1 or 2 RT's and I have no pres at all, I'm buying a jetpack every single time because it dramatically increases my power, and because it also dramatically increases my average lifetime, it will probably pay it's self back by the time I buy. Even the cheapest weapons however I actually have to think about, welders mean I lose my axe, shutguns are significantly more expensive than JPs, and I'm more likely to die and lose it, and Flame throwers/GL's are a bit more specialized and costly. It's the same as aliens. When I see a marine with a bought weapon, it changes how I deal with them depending on what kind of alien I'm playing, how likely I am to stay away, how I'm going to move towards them to get in range, etc. Once jetpacks become common, non JP marines just look like easy (at least in comparison) kills and JP's become depending on my life form annoying, or extremely annoying/basically a hard counter.
Some kind of negative to JP's would make it more of a choice on the marine side (If the negative is armor, then the question is do I want mobility or tankiness) and probably help aliens to deal with them, or offer them more strategies to try and combat them with.
I am wondering if UWE do log lategame win-ratio. At the moment the balancing is pretty good on nearly all maps. These statistics do count lategame wins as well. So its either possible to win lategames for both sides or the aliens just win early/mid-games too often :D .
<!--quoteo(post=1946622:date=Jun 25 2012, 11:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 25 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swipe delay after Fade Blink has been removed and imo it didnt solve the issue <b>enough</b>. The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, FINALLY. I can't wait to Fade then. It'll be hard to judge without a public 211.
<!--quoteo(post=1946714:date=Jun 26 2012, 10:51 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 26 2012, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe JPs should come at an armour trade-off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+2 for a good idea!
Maybe another trade off for JP's is that if they buy an advanced weapon (shotgun, GL, FT) that their flight time is decreased due to the weapons extra weight compared to the LMG. If they stick w/ the LMG, flight time is normal.
<!--quoteo(post=1946622:date=Jun 26 2012, 12:29 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 26 2012, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swipe delay after Fade Blink has been removed and imo it didnt solve the issue <b>enough</b>. The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least we are moving in the right direction now.
I realize protolab is still missing the jet pack upgrades. It shouldn't be hard to take the current jet pack and make it a "fully" tech jet pack, and just reduce it's recharge speed/flight speed/jet fuel.
<!--quoteo(post=1946785:date=Jun 26 2012, 10:42 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jun 26 2012, 10:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+2 for a good idea!
Maybe another trade off for JP's is that if they buy an advanced weapon (shotgun, GL, FT) that their flight time is decreased due to the weapons extra weight compared to the LMG. If they stick w/ the LMG, flight time is normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea! and what some guy mentioned about the armour trade off for choosing the jetpack research :)
Here is the general trend of game balance that I have noticed over the years.
Marines have never gotten a substantial buff of any kind until nano-construct, jetpacks were tuned to be better (Happened in last few months), and improved shotgun (Build 211). All this happened over the course of a handful of builds. So, maybe UWE is wising up and realizing the extreme advantages they have been giving the alien team since the beginning. Only until recently have they realized they need to buff the marines instead of ruining the alien gameplay to make it balanced.
Aliens have always been "overpowered" and the way I see UWE balancing this is by nerfing and changing aspects of the alien team that were fun. They also buff aliens a lot, but nerf a lot of the gameplay on aliens so it becomes boring and tedious.
Instead, why don't they just improve the marines? Stop making the aliens useless and tedious and start making the marines actually balanced throughout the entire game. I know it's easier said than done but this is simply my observation.
One thing that has been bothering me for about 3 months now is when they lowered the CC health. You basically get a skulk rush EVERY single competitive game now because it's extremely viable due to the flimsy CC. It boggles my mind how this has been left untouched for so many months.
The skulk on marine combat is fundamentally flawed... I can't quite put my finger on it but I am 75% sure it comes down to gun mechanics.
I had no problem engaging all types of lifeforms in NS1 with fluid and precise aiming. I knew if I aimed well the skulk would die. There was no mouselag and when i click fast my pistol fired just as fast (Not true in NS2 due to bad FPS). The gun mechanics worked and I had confidence in my marine. Now when I see a skulk I kind of say a little prayer and hope that my lmg can even hit the damn skulk a few times. I pray my FPS doesnt drop when I see a skulk and my mouse actually moves where I want it to without mouselag. It's more luck based than skill when you come across even a decent skulk. It's too hard to hit stuff in ns2... it's a huge problem that has never been addressed seriously. I'm sure it's an FPS problem but even when I have good FPS things still feel pretty off.
There needs to be a serious overhaul and tweak done to the pistol and lmg to make them more effective vs skulks. 1 skulk vs 1 marine the marine should win almost all the time (Less the skulk is being stealthy how it should be).
I'm tired of seeing skulks jump around all crazy while I lose my FPS and mouse responsiveness then get owned... when in ns1 that skulk would have died trying to close the gap on me out in the open.
Marines are basically useless and are moreso a kamakaze class than the skulk now due to how ineffective they are. All a marine is good for is going out and doing damage then dieing. Until you get jetpacks you really are pretty useless against skilled skulks (Especially with leap and parasite). Has anyone else noticed how easy it is to get a parasite on a marine right before leaping at them and insta-raping them with 2 bites?
Parasite+leap 30 seconds into the game coupled with bad gun mechanics and mouselag. Game will be solid once it gets fixed. The game is still fun... and all that... just not balanced as usual. Of course balance will always be a little off until release but theres some stuff that keeps getting overlooked when it could be tweaked quite easily.
We have given the skulk a pseudo rifle. 1 parasite is the equivalent to a melee bite that should have been earned through skillfun planning... not this railgun parasite + leap crap. Either let them have the parasite or leap... not both at the same time 30 seconds into the game.
EDIT:
Upon further refection I have thought that perhaps the LMG's effective range is set too much for mid range combat. Let's be honest... how often are people killing skulks at long to medium ranges? It doesn't happen often because skulks aren't stupid and don't put themselves in the effective range for the LMG. Why not make the LMG more effective at close range by raising the bullet spread? Perhaps add a mechanic like CS where the more you spray the less accurate you are at a distance. It makes sense to me and I am usually killing skulks near point blank range every time (Where the LMG is least effective).
Comments
Well the Marines need a debuff in theyr current state, with JP as standard equip from the 5min mark, with a high DMG SG in theyr hands, the unlimited nano, shield, meds, turrets and ARCs.
Had several games today where marines had central as 2. Base while the Aliens had everything else, but no chance to win against mass JP and Turrets. And with Armor 3 a skulk has a hard day even in 1vs1 that normally should be a win for the skulk but even beginners have it easy against a skulk. Even a Fade has almost no chance to kill a lone Marine if he has a shotgun.
Marines had so many buffs in the last patches while the Aliens go nerfed in many ways. The only chance to win a game as Aliens is to try to kill the CC in the first 5min, if they can not do it, the Marines just start turtling up.
The whole Alien side is overcomplicated in sense of researcches and Upgrades while the Marines have a way simpler and smaler techtree. Things like JP that should be a "rare" equip are standard and if fear the EXO.
The combat mechanic is pure chaos in this build, IMO.
It is hard to explain whats wrong with this build, because there are different variables that affect the overall feeling.
Yup. Every single one. :)
Personally I find Ns2 quite 'messy' in caparison.
It just feels like it is missing an 'X' factor that will turn a great game into and outstanding game... but I can't for the life of me put my finger on what that is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exosuits ;)
Some points I wan't to bring up:
1. Skulk feels very slow and les controlable now. The walljump can't be used as a good travel method now. Leap is to "weak", but since you can have it at 1min mark I think it needs to be so. Also the feedback for xeno is hard to understand (I can say when I am gona explode). The delay between leap and bite is to high.
2. Lerk is to slow to be a realy ambusher. Poison bite is nice if the Marine com sleeps but with the actual resincome the poison is usless it should corrode the Armor instead of hurting the health, Lerk has gas for this.
Umbra is ok and it will be changed anyway to be more usefull.
3. The Fade needs a lower delay from blink to swipe, it was changed some builds ago but since the armor ups are more effective now it should be removed again. The blink time should be increased by 2 or 3s, so he can escape better, but the delay between blinks should be increased as tradeoff. Vortex is ok and depends alot on the situation.
4. Gorge is ok, only the max of 3 Hydras and 10 clogs is a bit anoying sometimes, especially in bigger games or on small games. Maybe allow the com to research additional hydras/clogs on a mature hive. It's unfair that marines can spam longrange def and a Gorge can only place 3. It is the only realy def structures for the Aliens beside the melee range whip.
5. Onos feels alright, but there is still some major stuck problems sometimes when you evolve Onos.
6. Alien com is too stressfull. He needs to scout, mist, build, research, heal, disorient, replace cysts, move whips, microing Drifters/enzyme etc. Painfull gardening.
7. Resincome is very slow compared to Marines and also the number of total res used for ups is ways to big compared to the Marines. Make the researches cheaper but double the research time. The total res used to get all ups should be almost the same as Marines need and not almost twice as much.
8. Whips are usless as soon as 1 ARC is on the field even if it has bombard, the ARCs can be moved out of range and kill em, something a whip can not.
9. JP can fly way to long and are tooo fast to really be contered by any Alien, not sure if Spider will help.
10. ARCs are to powerfull. To high range too much DMG for a mobile unit. You need to get close with a whip and have LoS or a well organised geoup of Aliens, but as soon as the Marine com splits em in 2 or 3 groups Aliens can not deal with em. Also the AoE is to large. Most games are won by ARC spam.
11. Marines have a big advantage in getting res, they can have 4 or more RTs in a very short time with nanoconstruct, while Aliens need ages to cysts and build the RT. Do faster resticks for aliens but lower for marines, increase the harvester costs but extractorcosts stay where they are. Asymetry.
12. Overall resincome compared to used Tres to get all ups as Marines is to high and ends in spamfest of any kind. Lot of things need to be more expensive especially turrets and ARCs
13. There in no more early game and everything feels to fast. It is more rush for RTs in the beginning and the start spaming. Tacticas as Marines are almost inexistant and almost everything the Aliens do can be contered by spaming Meds, Shield, Turrets or ARCs. If the gorge has hard limits for his things the Marines also should have for ARCs and turrets. Aliens can't use the res to gain an advantage with buildings because of high mobile ARCs. 200 res are gone in 10s. While aliens can't do the same with bilebomb.
14. As Marine your only job is to get RTs, the rest does the com with ARCs and turrets, I often feel usless on the Field.
15. Marine shouldn't be able to sprint, they are more mobile than most Aliens. And with JP you can be linke a fly that avoids every slap.
16. The game performance is bad in this build because of the many res you have to use, ending in GL and ARC only playstyle.
There more points but I am to drunk to weite em all down. Build 210 feels like onslaught on UT 2k4. Hope you can change som estuff for 211 so it feels a bit slower and that the AI units lose on importance and the players are the key to win again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1: skulks are fine, I met some annoying skilled skulks players that where fast enough and very annoying to hit movement form wall to ceiling to wall jump around and eat my but, skulks fine you just sucks.
2: Lerks are fine, still annoying ######, met some skilled skulks platers that dunno how almoste always hit with spikes while manouver very fast around, gues you skills as lerk sucks to.
3: Fades are still strong, met view stupid fades I could kill in 1 clip of main marine gun but most fades still kill me very fast.
4: gorge is boring as hell, yes can be fun with bile bomb a marines base but thats all you do with gorge, bile bomb and heal onos ass, hydra still useless, 3 is way to view, still prever cost hydra and unlimited.
5: stuck in general sucks, no matter marine or any life form evolution getting stuck just sucks should have method to unstuck you with out killing your self.
6: Go try marine commanding, aliens is cakewalk if one commanding can be stressfull is marine unless alien team sucks and marines are actualy listing, even if team listens but got very strong alien team its still stressfull.
7: Wait till marines get all there upgrades wich you already got, then they need spend more resourses as aliens and will be equal.
8: Whips are like turrets, and your arc is your gorge bilbombing and its aoe, dont hear us marines complain that gorge is to mobile and kill our base form save distance and our turrets cant hit them either. there strong and weaknesses, go kill arcs with your team, arc weak point is movement when unprotected and need to be deployed.
9: Lerks can fly for way to long, unlimited with out getting tired, so your complain is based on nothing. would love to see lerks need energy to even fly, so you can whine more.
10: so far I know arc do not do aoe damage, dunno for sure but mostly more then 1 arc firing so cant be for sure unless you test it with 1 arc. and if you let marine commander even build that many arcs and even split them to attack form 2 sides it means they also got split there marine force to protect them, focus on 1 get it down then rush to second arc group and your done, depents on your team.
11: Depents on your alien commander, yes you will be slower with tech upgrades if you want fast resoursers but same is for the marines, nano construck cost resoursers to use, marines need build buildings while aliens only need a cysts and everything builded automaticly, this more sounds like commanding choise issue and aliens not protecting there cysts then income issue.
If you want fast resourse towers you get slower upgrades, want upgrades you get less resourse towers, same for marines, invalid argument.
12: Can say the same for aliens whips and cysts spamming, yes if you got to many resourse towers and swimming in Team ress then something enemy team did wrong, this stroy is for both sides that got to many resourse towers, learn get enemy resourse towers down and protect yours once you got all upgrades both team can spam stuff, like whips, turrets ect ect ect, all depents on who got upperhand and can keep the upperhand.
13: Again story we swim in resourses, make tons of whips, cysts smap marine base and plant them and watch the show, 2 or 3 gorge can aoe down marine base in very fast pace, matter of team work.
early game, whel there is, but if one team graps way more resoursers then other team and other team dont want to or cant prevent enemy team keeping them then yes one team will grow faster in upgrades then other and one side will struggle more as other gets stronger, its very taticfull but one team fails the other will benefit form it. goes for both sides.
14: Depents on your commander and your team, if you got team only runs around mindless then yes you should not do more then make RT, rest requires a brain and if you function worse then a mac then your useless, I mostly command try to limit the use of turrets and only use arc if realy no progress to kill them otherwise and use turrets only when aliens are pushing realy hard and marines are more bushy using phase gate form 1 place to other to do anything els then defend.
15:Lerks ever heared of it, sprint aint very good, its handy to move form 1 place to other a tiny bit faster with limit, fades, lerks, skulks move way faster by base and onos can rush straigh way can be seen as onos sprint and got upgrades that improve alien movement speed that is very stupid if you see onos run faster then speed of sound.
Hole JP b###### is utter noncense, get lerks get them down or lure them in arears that not make them able to fligh high.
16: last but not least, also team issue, one team is stronger, swimming in resourses and nothing els to do then spam turrets arc, med packs and other ######, same for aliens cyst, whips and other buildings spam.
Preformance whise, yes this does take presure on the server, one server takes it beter then other, one pc takes it better then other, 1 options is simple, limit the use of turrets, whips, cysts ect, for expample could limit cysts to number needed to cover the hole map + view extra, this mean aliens cant spam more cysts then nessery on certain place, draw back will be bad alien commander placing cysts wrong will cut him self on expanding, limit whips to nessery limit to protect an arear form gernade bombarment, and arc should be limited as well, no need to have 50 of them, turrets could be limited to xx per powernode side, draw back for marine commander would be bad placed turrets will be useless and cant make more.
Client wise realy need improvements as well but I bet dev are more bushy to finish the game, balance it and then turn on tuning the engine and preformance.
most of your arguments are based on team, one team suck other will profit visa versa its not game issue, its player issue.
I find 210 most balanced build so far, both side are equaly strong even marines missing most of there stuff, and yes team with more skilled players will win, no balance will chance that.
im off to eat bye.
Could you pls stop insulting me? The only thing I've read is that I suck... Dam do I really need to read this from a person that plays this game for some months? I am for sure not a noob or sucking at any class, alot of PLL know me on the Servers but you don't. Be more polite than a kid...
Can't you just be more on topic instead of insulting posters? If you can't don't post anything nexttime!
And btw thos speedy skulks are a bug on high speed gains on ramps and several props.
A)
Fade lose his role as an harasser, he is an disabler now.
Where is the fearfull scary fade gone? 2 good marines with lvl1 armor+shotgun and a fade has no chance.
In theory it was:
1 Marine vs 1 skulk= skulk win
2 Marines vs 1 skulk= marine win
Now we have:
1 Marine vs 1 Fade = 50-50 chance
2 Marines vs 1 Fade= Marine win
This is cause: better hit detection of shotgun, fadeblink is visible and cost much energy, reduced swipedamage (4 hits vs lvl3 armor)
I only talk about fade vs marines here, not vs structures (vortex)
Most players save for onos now and i see less fades on the field since some builds.
B)
Aliens have nothing effective vs jetpackers.
Sure, every class can kill an Jetpacker, but u have normally 7-8 on the field. And this is under the 10 min mark normally.
C)
Aliens have nothing effective vs arctrains and turretfarms. Sure you can disable arcs with vortex, but in this time you cannot destroy them. So you just get some time.
D)
Marines swimming in t.res, and that with "only" 4 rts.
Swimming in res= Spam of everything (arcs,turrets, meds, nano)
Btw the game "feels" balanced maybe for some people and statistics telling the same.
But thats not true.
Nearly noone in my friendslist play ns2 atm (and i have an huge friendlist with ppl playing since alpha)
So we have many new players right now and they have not enough knowing about gamemechanics.
Strange thing is, the build seem the work better in competitive enviroment. But there are normally less static structures.
Like this show: <a href="http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/322597103" target="_blank">http://de.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/322597103</a>
To summarize:
Seem to work for clanmatches but not on public servers.
I dont like the fact, that aliens need more teamplay to win a game than marines now. And that is without exo.
Skulks can be very fast but like I said they're extremely glitchy at the moment still (I can still get a quick-boost whilst leaping from the wall to the floor and continue hopping long at that pace.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2: Lerks are fine, still annoying ######, met some skilled skulks platers that dunno how almoste always hit with spikes while manouver very fast around, guess you skills as lerk sucks to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks are probably the least-skilled alien at the moment, sadly; I've always kept away from the class but played one-day to see that you can just spam spikes and finish with a bite at most marines unless they're nano'd and med-spammed for more than a few seconds straight. If some Lerk-player just throw themselves in the face of a marine whilst umbra'ing and volleying spikes it seems to drop performance horribly for said marine as well. My real gripe with the Lerk is that it's currently the most 'advanced' unit on the alien-team (in terms of countering; a small and strong [Skulk] flying unit with ranged and melee attacks that can temporarily disable sentries and give other aliens an Umbra 'shield' cloud.) This is mostly down to hatred for the thing since performance on both clients and the server can be wobbly making Lerks some of the most annoying aliens whether mediocre or pro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: Fades are still strong, met few stupid fades I could kill in 1 clip of main marine gun but most fades still kill me very fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are pretty strong until Marines get lvl 3. Once that happens shotguns can kill them in two successful hits or two/three-quarts of a single clip with the rifle (Nades can also destroy them.) It doesn't help when the Marine armour stacks up so much that the Fade can't simply chip away at it without running in and leaving every second (though these are considered 'pro-players' because they'll only deal one swipe and leave :L) Honestly I'm thinking the Fade should lose its Vortex ability for another ranged attack like the Acid-rocket even though it wasn't exactly a fun mechanic on its own.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4: gorge is boring as hell, yes can be fun with bile bomb a marines base but thats all you do with gorge, bile bomb and heal onos ass, hydra still useless, 3 is way to view, still prever cost hydra and unlimited.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QQ. I want the Gorge to be more useful too. Even when Bile Bombing you're nothing more than a glass-cannon where you can't escape Marines unless you're right next to a swarm of alien-defenses.
<img src="http://www.platinerz.de/img/1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://www.platinerz.de/img/2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://www.platinerz.de/img/3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Guessed it? No, no excessive turretspam. Only about 5-6.
<b>The problem</b> is all upgrades (and JPs and all weapons) and ARCs being available at 1 CC and 1 extractor. I emailed Charlie about this a week ago but he didn't answer - quite usual on negative feedback.
And now don't tell me "team up, all onos and rush them, lolol easymore" . NO, this simply doesn't work in public games, I'm happy if half the team listens to me as a comm in pubs.
This problem was always there but in 210 it is much more annoying than before. While this "only" happens in about 15% of all games these games take up at least 30% of my total time in NS2. It usually ends in a massive alien ragequit because it's extremely annoying and frustrating to fight against that - like running against a wall that is slowly moving forwards, crushing you in the end and there's nothing you can do about it.
<b>The solution</b> could be so simple. Limit something to number of CCs/Hives. I suggest this:
Scale weapon/armor/carapace/regeneration upgrades with number of ccs/hives:
lost your 2nd CC? -> your w3/a3 is now only worth 10% extra damage/20 armor
carapace: armor = classBaseArmor + (carapace.isActive() ? (numberOfHives*classExtraArmor+classExtraStaticArmor) : 0) - where static armor is a bit extra in order to keep cara useful at hive 1.
I suggest values around 8 for SkulkClassExtraArmor and 5 for SkulkClassExtraStaticArmor here, so skulks with cara at hive 1 would have 23 armor, 31 at hive 2 and so on. This would also fix carapace being too strong at hive 1 and make alien turtling even less effective.
ARCs also need fixing, just compare them to whips with bombard:
- cost less (20 vs 30 res)
- do not need infestation to fire (!)
- can fire through walls
- higher radius
- cannot fight players (the 10 extra res should cover this)
- takes twice as much player time to kill them (assuming a mature whip)
- cannot fight back bile bombs like the whip tosses back grenades. Tossing back grenades doesn't work properly though since the rapid fire GL change.
- can move much faster (due to whips needing infest to move fast)
- more damage and HUGE hitrange instead of (almost) single target damage of bombard
Solution: Make them require LOS, decrease health a bit and reduce radius to whip bombard radius. Could also remove the infest requirement to root whips...
Lol, unroot the billion whips and push the base with them ? But I guess 2 arcs are enough to destroy them all...
So builds ago it was the standard way of finishing the game as alien, build 10 whips and move them into marine base. Was an elegant solution to the stalemates.
Even if whips would not need infest to root - 2 or more ARCs would "lol" at them, killing them through a wall before the first bombard hits anything.
They never had less than one ARC deployed there eventhough I (the alien comm) decided to go gorge and bile them from pipe junction...... Didn't work out due to excessive GL spam.
Suggestion: 4th hive upgrade/research ability that's only available after getting crag shade and shift. whatever it is is solely for the commander's use to finish off a turtled base with.
I am hoping what they need is coordination...not more nerfs or buffs
If they were given two waypoints 1 = attack 2 = defend the aliens could be much more coordinated.
Some points I wan't to bring up:
1. Skulk feels very slow and les controlable now. The walljump can't be used as a good travel method now. Leap is to "weak", but since you can have it at 1min mark I think it needs to be so. Also the feedback for xeno is hard to understand (I can say when I am gona explode). The delay between leap and bite is to high.
2. Lerk is to slow to be a realy ambusher. Poison bite is nice if the Marine com sleeps but with the actual resincome the poison is usless it should corrode the Armor instead of hurting the health, Lerk has gas for this.
Umbra is ok and it will be changed anyway to be more usefull.
3. The Fade needs a lower delay from blink to swipe, it was changed some builds ago but since the armor ups are more effective now it should be removed again. The blink time should be increased by 2 or 3s, so he can escape better, but the delay between blinks should be increased as tradeoff. Vortex is ok and depends alot on the situation.
4. Gorge is ok, only the max of 3 Hydras and 10 clogs is a bit anoying sometimes, especially in bigger games or on small games. Maybe allow the com to research additional hydras/clogs on a mature hive. It's unfair that marines can spam longrange def and a Gorge can only place 3. It is the only realy def structures for the Aliens beside the melee range whip.
5. Onos feels alright, but there is still some major stuck problems sometimes when you evolve Onos.
6. Alien com is too stressfull. He needs to scout, mist, build, research, heal, disorient, replace cysts, move whips, microing Drifters/enzyme etc. Painfull gardening.
7. Resincome is very slow compared to Marines and also the number of total res used for ups is ways to big compared to the Marines. Make the researches cheaper but double the research time. The total res used to get all ups should be almost the same as Marines need and not almost twice as much.
8. Whips are usless as soon as 1 ARC is on the field even if it has bombard, the ARCs can be moved out of range and kill em, something a whip can not.
9. JP can fly way to long and are tooo fast to really be contered by any Alien, not sure if Spider will help.
10. ARCs are to powerfull. To high range too much DMG for a mobile unit. You need to get close with a whip and have LoS or a well organised geoup of Aliens, but as soon as the Marine com splits em in 2 or 3 groups Aliens can not deal with em. Also the AoE is to large. Most games are won by ARC spam.
11. Marines have a big advantage in getting res, they can have 4 or more RTs in a very short time with nanoconstruct, while Aliens need ages to cysts and build the RT. Do faster resticks for aliens but lower for marines, increase the harvester costs but extractorcosts stay where they are. Asymetry.
12. Overall resincome compared to used Tres to get all ups as Marines is to high and ends in spamfest of any kind. Lot of things need to be more expensive especially turrets and ARCs
13. There in no more early game and everything feels to fast. It is more rush for RTs in the beginning and the start spaming. Tacticas as Marines are almost inexistant and almost everything the Aliens do can be contered by spaming Meds, Shield, Turrets or ARCs. If the gorge has hard limits for his things the Marines also should have for ARCs and turrets. Aliens can't use the res to gain an advantage with buildings because of high mobile ARCs. 200 res are gone in 10s. While aliens can't do the same with bilebomb.
14. As Marine your only job is to get RTs, the rest does the com with ARCs and turrets, I often feel usless on the Field.
15. Marine shouldn't be able to sprint, they are more mobile than most Aliens. And with JP you can be linke a fly that avoids every slap.
16. The game performance is bad in this build because of the many res you have to use, ending in GL and ARC only playstyle.
There more points but I am to drunk to weite em all down. Build 210 feels like onslaught on UT 2k4. Hope you can change som estuff for 211 so it feels a bit slower and that the AI units lose on importance and the players are the key to win again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am to drunk to weite em all down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
All of your points are on point. I've been saying this for like, the LONGEST time now.
My biggest concern is Jetpacks and a respectable counter, along with the delayed attack for Fade after a blink.
2nd concern is the GL/ARC spam. It really isn't fun tbh.
I just stopped playing a few days after the build released. It really just isn't fun to be an alien OR a marine right now.
The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)
I'm concerned about how those supposed research upgrades are gonna play out. It feels like it's been "maxed out" enough.
If they were given two waypoints 1 = attack 2 = defend the aliens could be much more coordinated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure coordinated attacks may help, but not really in build 210. 30s after the coordinated attack all marines are back with fresh JP and weapons.
Also it doesn't work in PUB.
Was Alien com yesterday and provided as much info I could by scouting with my Dungeon Keeper hand, the response I got from 2 players was I talk too much and they muted me. Also a group of SGs can clear out 2-3 Onos without problems and if they have JP you can not even flee.
We pushed Central with Lerks umbraing, Onoses stomping and smashing, fades using vortex and gorges healing, we got destroyed in less than 1 min because the marines had way better mobility than the Aliens in the end.
Those icons existed a really really long time now(i remember seeing them even before arcs got into the game), and the problem why they are not in the game is not that it would be hard to actually code it.
I'd say nothing to be concerned about... (if devs wouldnt also think that it might be a bit op they could have easily implemented it by now)
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After trying out the ns2b mod, which also removes the swipe delay... i agree - thats not enough to solve the jp issue. I ll keep my comments on the planned change for after 211... (since it sounds pretty much set in stone for the patch anyway)
I know you're joking, but anyway: If early game is short and people want more early game, focusing on the exosuit is backwards. What the Marines needs is the opposite of the exosuit if anything. Maybe Rubber Men. Uhm... :) Well, I know I'm not very psyched for the exo right now. I want more early game. More LMG's and shotties, more Skulks and Lerks, less structures on the maps.
<b>No it's not repetable</b> to do this in each game, because the actually gameplay is dynamic, combat and so on. At current beta stage, unlocking all lifeform to one hive was a big mistake. Although I'm crossing my fingers that the beta testers and the dev team will find a good solution.
<b>Just an quick example:</b>
Having more then one CC will give possiblity to more upgrades, like be able to build arcs? So now marines like aliens has to stroggle to maintain more cc?
Having more then one CC will give possiblity to more upgrades, like be able to build arcs? So now marines like aliens has to stroggle to maintain more cc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was implemented in one of the early builds, so that marines could not research advanced weapons until they had two CC.
The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imo the problem is also that even with jp rush strats, A1 suffices in making the marines considerably more resilient vs fades and other lifeforms. Then when A3 rolls out, you find yourself with JP rines that are not only incredibly mobile, they are also pretty damn tanky. Maybe JPs should come at an armour trade-off, either that or they're going to have to cut into mobility a bit. (Alternatively reinstating A2 3 swipes could work as well, vs early JP strategies at least)
+1 Great idea :)
Some kind of negative to JP's would make it more of a choice on the marine side (If the negative is armor, then the question is do I want mobility or tankiness) and probably help aliens to deal with them, or offer them more strategies to try and combat them with.
These statistics do count lategame wins as well. So its either possible to win lategames for both sides or the aliens just win early/mid-games too often :D .
I wanna see the detailed statistics *g*.
The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, FINALLY.
I can't wait to Fade then. It'll be hard to judge without a public 211.
+2 for a good idea!
Maybe another trade off for JP's is that if they buy an advanced weapon (shotgun, GL, FT) that their flight time is decreased due to the weapons extra weight compared to the LMG.
If they stick w/ the LMG, flight time is normal.
The issue, imo, is that jetpacks recharge in the air or recharge too soon. (0.7 sec) and as such one can make it from DC to crossroads without landing, making it very hard in that long time to survive the marine with a shotgun pointed at you in their position of advantage. But We'll see what the public thinks after 211 drops. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least we are moving in the right direction now.
I realize protolab is still missing the jet pack upgrades. It shouldn't be hard to take the current jet pack and make it a "fully" tech jet pack, and just reduce it's recharge speed/flight speed/jet fuel.
Maybe another trade off for JP's is that if they buy an advanced weapon (shotgun, GL, FT) that their flight time is decreased due to the weapons extra weight compared to the LMG.
If they stick w/ the LMG, flight time is normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea! and what some guy mentioned about the armour trade off for choosing the jetpack research :)
Marines have never gotten a substantial buff of any kind until nano-construct, jetpacks were tuned to be better (Happened in last few months), and improved shotgun (Build 211). All this happened over the course of a handful of builds. So, maybe UWE is wising up and realizing the extreme advantages they have been giving the alien team since the beginning. Only until recently have they realized they need to buff the marines instead of ruining the alien gameplay to make it balanced.
Aliens have always been "overpowered" and the way I see UWE balancing this is by nerfing and changing aspects of the alien team that were fun. They also buff aliens a lot, but nerf a lot of the gameplay on aliens so it becomes boring and tedious.
Instead, why don't they just improve the marines? Stop making the aliens useless and tedious and start making the marines actually balanced throughout the entire game. I know it's easier said than done but this is simply my observation.
One thing that has been bothering me for about 3 months now is when they lowered the CC health. You basically get a skulk rush EVERY single competitive game now because it's extremely viable due to the flimsy CC. It boggles my mind how this has been left untouched for so many months.
The skulk on marine combat is fundamentally flawed... I can't quite put my finger on it but I am 75% sure it comes down to gun mechanics.
I had no problem engaging all types of lifeforms in NS1 with fluid and precise aiming. I knew if I aimed well the skulk would die. There was no mouselag and when i click fast my pistol fired just as fast (Not true in NS2 due to bad FPS). The gun mechanics worked and I had confidence in my marine. Now when I see a skulk I kind of say a little prayer and hope that my lmg can even hit the damn skulk a few times. I pray my FPS doesnt drop when I see a skulk and my mouse actually moves where I want it to without mouselag. It's more luck based than skill when you come across even a decent skulk. It's too hard to hit stuff in ns2... it's a huge problem that has never been addressed seriously. I'm sure it's an FPS problem but even when I have good FPS things still feel pretty off.
There needs to be a serious overhaul and tweak done to the pistol and lmg to make them more effective vs skulks. 1 skulk vs 1 marine the marine should win almost all the time (Less the skulk is being stealthy how it should be).
I'm tired of seeing skulks jump around all crazy while I lose my FPS and mouse responsiveness then get owned... when in ns1 that skulk would have died trying to close the gap on me out in the open.
Marines are basically useless and are moreso a kamakaze class than the skulk now due to how ineffective they are. All a marine is good for is going out and doing damage then dieing. Until you get jetpacks you really are pretty useless against skilled skulks (Especially with leap and parasite). Has anyone else noticed how easy it is to get a parasite on a marine right before leaping at them and insta-raping them with 2 bites?
Parasite+leap 30 seconds into the game coupled with bad gun mechanics and mouselag. Game will be solid once it gets fixed. The game is still fun... and all that... just not balanced as usual. Of course balance will always be a little off until release but theres some stuff that keeps getting overlooked when it could be tweaked quite easily.
We have given the skulk a pseudo rifle. 1 parasite is the equivalent to a melee bite that should have been earned through skillfun planning... not this railgun parasite + leap crap. Either let them have the parasite or leap... not both at the same time 30 seconds into the game.
EDIT:
Upon further refection I have thought that perhaps the LMG's effective range is set too much for mid range combat. Let's be honest... how often are people killing skulks at long to medium ranges? It doesn't happen often because skulks aren't stupid and don't put themselves in the effective range for the LMG. Why not make the LMG more effective at close range by raising the bullet spread? Perhaps add a mechanic like CS where the more you spray the less accurate you are at a distance. It makes sense to me and I am usually killing skulks near point blank range every time (Where the LMG is least effective).
Consider my thoughts...