Simple nano-shield/construct change would be to limit the number of simultaneous nano abilities by number of comm stations.
If you only have 1 CS, you can only have 1 active nano-shield and/or nano-construct. This would give a greater incentive to secure more techpoints while limiting the nano-spam.
The asymmetrical balance can be described this way: aliens have more AoE buffs (umbra/enzyme) while marines buffs are single target (nano). The balance to this is that marine upgrades are applied to the entire team (weapons/armor) while alien upgrades are individually evolved (carapace/celerity).
I'm very happy with the removal of energy and making comm abilities cost T-res. This will keep the separation of T-res and P-res and remove the confusing energy per structure system that was no really intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1943810:date=Jun 16 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jun 16 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, nano-construct doesn't make any sense. Single marine can put up 3-4 RTs in the time aliens painfully grow one. It also allows for too quick phasegates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never really liked asymmetry in game mechanics more than asymmetry in map designs.
I can't really think of a suggestion for nanoshields/construct other than just removing it.
As someone stated previously, it's already hard enough to deal with a Nanoshielded Jetpack squad.
I was hoping they would remove the attack delay on Fade blink for this patch, but instead, they've made Jetpack encounters more of a pain in the ass with infinite nanoshield in ADDITION to slowing down Lerk Bite.
And don't tell me to rely on hydras or whips (NPC) to deal with a Jetpack (human). Absolutely no skill involved.
As for the rest of this build, I'll reserve judgment (especially the new Buy menu).
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->"You can't please anyone these days!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The only time I was realistically pleased was when the Skulk was introduced with a temporary speed-boost for the SKILL-BASED wall-jumping (THE 'GENIUS' BUILD).
This was such a great idea because if it was done correctly, it rewarded the player with a small speedboost that was great in closing the distance with a marine, and you could even avoid some of the incoming barrage of bullets down the long ass hallway.
A few builds later, I recall myself wall-jumping down a corridor in Mineshaft while a skulk next to me was just jumping and running in a STRAIGHT LINE.
I expected to be ahead of him, but there he was, still moving in the same speed as I was.
And there it was, as with most (in NS2's case, ALL) good things, it came to an end, and Skulk wall-jump was reduced to utter redundancy.
I can make a whole thread on wall-jump if I wanted to, but I really don't see it coming back now :|.
The only thing that could light a spark of hope for the aliens against Jetpacks is to remove the Fade hit delay during Blink. Right now, the best bet of winning and in dealing with the Jetpack problem?
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Taking out the power node/finishing off the CC with an Onos rush.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That doesn't really do much to solve a problem when it's completely IGNORING Jetpacks in the equation all together.
If you guys can honestly make a big of a gamble in this build with the removal of energy, then certainly removing the hit delay during Blink should be no problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1943855:date=Jun 16 2012, 12:02 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Jun 16 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple nano-shield/construct change would be to limit the number of simultaneous nano abilities by number of comm stations.
If you only have 1 CS, you can only have 1 active nano-shield and/or nano-construct. This would give a greater incentive to secure more techpoints while limiting the nano-spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds nice, yes. But nano-construct is nearly not used more than once at the same time. We would need to limit it in another way. What if we combine a cool-down and the dependency of CCs. Add a little number to the button for the times you can use it without cool down. As soon as you use it the first time, a cool-down-circle (like in Command and Conquer) would run clockwise on the button. If the cool down is finished, it allows one additional use. Max uses = amount of CCs.
Not that this is a democracy, but I'm all for Nano Construct being nerfed a bit too ... if it was intended to improve teamplay by having one marine build and the rest cover, well it isn't really working. They should be doing that already the lazy sods!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1943700:date=Jun 15 2012, 08:55 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 15 2012, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943700"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I definitely think nanoshield and cyst could use some short cooldowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I cant tell you how many times i said this / called for it, in every means possible, all the way up to the last hour.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1943796:date=Jun 16 2012, 06:07 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 16 2012, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this build is another step in the right direction.
I will say though, nanoshield and nanoconstruct need to go. I thought they were a bad idea when they were put into the game, and they still are. They're certainly in direct opposition of the design doc mantra of making NS2 an FPS first and an RTS second, even more so than was the case in NS1 (paraphrased).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd agree except that med/ammo packs already seem to violate the FPS first design. Instant health/ammo anywhere on the map is just as bad (or worse) than quick build/reduced damage. I've regularly helped marines solo 3+ skulks with med/ammo spam long before nanoshield was ever introduced.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1943896:date=Jun 16 2012, 07:20 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 16 2012, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instant health/ammo anywhere on the map is just as bad (or worse) than quick build/reduced damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not even close, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post in this thread.
As for med/ammo drops being a similar issue; yes and no. Some degree of comm interaction must be allowed or commanding will be terribly boring and detached. I want to write a longer post about it, but it seems pointless because: It worked fine in NS1 and NS2 is similar enough to make a direct analogy.
I think the bigger issue with things like cysts, nanoshield, etc is that both sides lack sufficient t.res sinks later in the game, primarily due to them running out of tech +- 15 minutes in. You really shouldn't be able to run though all the tech as fast as you can in NS2 atm, imagine if that was the case in an RTS, wouldn't make for very exciting gameplay. Most people agree the early and early-mid game is much more enjoyable than late, hence it would only make sense to prolong that enjoyable phase of the game significantly.
That being said, a cooldown on some t.res abilities would definitely be a good idea, even if tech costs/speeds were adjusted.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1943906:date=Jun 16 2012, 11:41 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 16 2012, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not even close, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post in this thread.
As for med/ammo drops being a similar issue; yes and no. Some degree of comm interaction must be allowed or commanding will be terribly boring and detached. I want to write a longer post about it, but it seems pointless because: It worked fine in NS1 and NS2 is similar enough to make a direct analogy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure I'd say med/ammo packs worked fine in NS1 as much as it was better than less direct comm interaction. To be frank, I think it could be redesigned to an AOE with a heal/ammo over time that would reduce the wastefulness of unused packs and the instant heal/ammo effect over aliens.
Also, nanoconstruct is mechanic that violates the FPS first design mechanic the least since its main function is macro-related (i.e. building stuff). Now, if may be OP in certain cases (builds RTs or PGs too fast or is too cheap), but that's an argument for adjusting the values, not removing the mechanic. Spending resources to build something faster is a common RTS mechanic that NS1/2 has been missing for a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1943907:date=Jun 16 2012, 02:42 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 16 2012, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the bigger issue with things like cysts, nanoshield, etc is that both sides lack sufficient t.res sinks later in the game, primarily due to them running out of tech +- 15 minutes in. You really shouldn't be able to run though all the tech as fast as you can in NS2 atm, imagine if that was the case in an RTS, wouldn't make for very exciting gameplay. Most people agree the early and early-mid game is much more enjoyable than late, hence it would only make sense to prolong that enjoyable phase of the game significantly.
That being said, a cooldown on some t.res abilities would definitely be a good idea, even if tech costs/speeds were adjusted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a really good point.
There are no real tres sinks later in the game. That fact leads to static defense spam, arc spam, cyst spam, and the current nano/med spam. The lack of endgame tres sinks directly results in a majority of the end game's frustrating features. It becomes less about marines vs aliens and more about marines vs buildings, or aliens vs arcs/turrets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, if may be OP in certain cases (builds RTs or PGs too fast or is too cheap), but that's an argument for adjusting the values, not removing the mechanic. Spending resources to build something faster is a common RTS mechanic that NS1/2 has been missing for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't defend a poor mechanic. Nanoconstruct needs to meet the sharp end of an axe. There is a reason why mist no longer affects alien structures. Both Nano-shield and medpacks needs to put on a cooldown system as well. Same with cysts.
At the current rate this game is heading everyone better grab a life preserver quick.
<!--quoteo(post=1943927:date=Jun 16 2012, 09:37 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 16 2012, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't defend a poor mechanic. Nanoconstruct needs to meet the sharp end of an axe. There is a reason why mist no longer affects alien structures. Both Nano-shield and medpacks needs to put on a cooldown system as well. Same with cysts.
At the current rate this game is heading everyone better grab a life preserver quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could say, that staring at a building for several seconds in an FPS is a bad mechanic. There is nothing bad in the idea of nano-construct. It is just to strong and needs a viable counter on the alien side. If marines can fast build, aliens should have an abilities to fast destroy the buildings. It just has to be equal and not a 200% effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1943915:date=Jun 16 2012, 03:09 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 16 2012, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, nanoconstruct is mechanic that violates the FPS first design mechanic the least since its main function is macro-related (i.e. building stuff).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm quite sure everyone was talking about nanoshield being bad for FPS-gameplay, because meds+shield are overkill for protection. I think meds giving health over time makes sense, but on the other hand, meds worked in NS1 (as fana said).
About nano-construct: I feel like NS is not just the right game for it. For most buildings the buildingtime is already not that long, so it is only needed in the few cases of a pg or maybe getting up a rt in the frontlines. In both cases it just steals the aliens a good chance to react to it. I always felt like getting those buildings up in dangerous territory were the most intense as a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1943930:date=Jun 16 2012, 03:45 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jun 16 2012, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One could say, that staring at a building for several seconds in an FPS is a bad mechanic. There is nothing bad in the idea of nano-construct. It is just to strong and needs a viable counter on the alien side. If marines can fast build, aliens should have an abilities to fast destroy the buildings. It just has to be equal and not a 200% effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, lets give Alien Kham a player targeted ability that increases their attack rate and boosts energy regen.
Now Aliens can chomp down a power node in 1-2 seconds and a com station in 5-10 seconds, or kill Marines before they could even blink. That just caused more issues than the initial problem, not to mention more work of balancing instead of just removing nano construction.
Less is more. Get rid of nano construction (and nano shield).
I think nano construction is fine, provided it goes on cooldown. There's absoutely nothing wrong with giving the marine commander a trade-off opportunity, i.e do I spend this res on ensuring a fast construction, and thus faster map control or do I save the res allowing me to pour it into tech progression? It's a perfect mechanic really, I even hope they bring back structure misting for the alien commander. These are the kind of features we need to encourage as they add a lot of depth and choices to the commander's side of the game. Alternatively, if they don't want to introduce 'artificial' cooldowns, they could simply tweak the build rate increase, or up the cost, or fix the broken lategame economy (see my earlier post) It would be foolish to cut the mechanic simply because it is currently poorly balanced.
Nanoshield is a little trickier, since it directly and massively affects the outcome of any engagement, something you probably don't want in an FPS, certainly not one that wants to cater to competitive player. I would argue it's fine on buildings but may need some tweaking on players, or just attempt tweaking it first as well.
For me the alien supremacy is over balance is more balanced and docking is a good map esteticly and strategicly. sg is now dangerous good thing too, i get a duble kill today and sg feel more like ns1.
good build but still bad optimisation, 20 fps with low graphism with 8 giga ram and 560ti, I hop for the release it will be mmore stable.
so this game for a proper release just need one more map and more optimisation, good job anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1943941:date=Jun 16 2012, 10:04 PM:name=banny)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (banny @ Jun 16 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->good build but still bad optimisation, 20 fps with low graphism with 8 giga ram and 560ti, I hop for the release it will be mmore stable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What processor do you have? I have 8gb ram and 560t like you but get 50-60fps with 4.0ghz processor.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me the alien supremacy is over balance is more balanced and docking is a good map esteticly and strategicly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry you believe this. While alien supremacy is indeed over, Marines are now top dog. Balance of power has completely shifted in favor of Marines. The team resource collection rate just demonstrates the fact that Marine's scaling and tech is far superior to what aliens' have to offer. Especially with how they are now getting their tech even faster. Nano-shield and medpack spam is through the roof while Aliens have no equivalent. Edit: Lerks are back to being garbage. Fades are still garbage vs JPs, toss in nano-shield and the JPs are nearly invincible. JPs have no counter.
If aliens are not able to shut Marines down (IE Marines still in possession of their frontal lobes) within the first 2-5 minutes of the game, then its going to be nearly impossible for Aliens to pull a win.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1943940:date=Jun 16 2012, 09:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 16 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think nano construction is fine, provided it goes on cooldown.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The cooldown will help with spamming RTs, but won't fix the problem with PGs. A PG going up or not is such a game changer that it's imperative that the aliens have some time to try to stop it. Nanoconstruct almost entirely removes that window of time where the aliens can attack and wipe out the marines before they get the PG up.
...and don't even try suggesting making it so PGs can't be nanoconstructed -- this game really doesn't need any more hidden modifiers.
<!--quoteo(post=1943940:date=Jun 16 2012, 04:52 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 16 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think nano construction is fine, provided it goes on cooldown. There's absoutely nothing wrong with giving the marine commander a trade-off opportunity, i.e do I spend this res on ensuring a fast construction, and thus faster map control or do I save the res allowing me to pour it into tech progression? It's a perfect mechanic really, I even hope they bring back structure misting for the alien commander. These are the kind of features we need to encourage as they add a lot of depth and choices to the commander's side of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm wondering if this sentiment is shared by other comms, that nano-construct gives "a lot of depth and choices", because I don't see it. I agree that comms need things to do, but I rather see features like drifters who can use enzyme-cloud to support their team.
I'd just like to say that I loved 209; Loved playing as a lerk. I've played well as a lerk and still lost the game. With 210... its just crap.
I'm sorry but you either need to drop grenade launchers completely or make all explosions hurt friendlies. And Jesus H Christ, optimise the CPU-side code, avoid JIT completely, compile the lua to machine code, do something... this build is slowing down even more now and my GPUs are happily cold.
I don't understand why there was such a huge change. All the marines needed was for their upgrades to cost a little less. Most of the time, if the marines had a few good players they would win. Now its a given.
<!--quoteo(post=1943979:date=Jun 17 2012, 09:45 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 17 2012, 09:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm wondering if this sentiment is shared by other comms, that nano-construct gives "a lot of depth and choices", because I don't see it. I agree that comms need things to do, but I rather see features like drifters who can use enzyme-cloud to support their team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Admittedly, this is all that nanoconstruct really does. It gives me something to do other than staring at a bunch of marines building an RT. The only changing variables when using nanoconstruct on RT's are opportunity cost and estimation of RT life span. Not alot of depth at all. Given a certain nanoconstruct cost we will eventually see a corresponding cookie cutter build.
Not a fan of artificial cooldowns on abilities in a game like ns2. They only hide the underlying problem and cause the decision making to become MMO like where its "nano construct every time its off cooldown" because its a good deal for its res cost. It would be better to find that 'balanced' res cost that acts as a soft counter to construct spam by ensuring it is never economically viable. I guess it all comes down to the intended purpose of nanoconstruct which is a design question that we mortal forum users can't answer.
For pg's and relo's, i think it highly unlikely nanoconstruct will ever be removed for the good reasons already stated. Flayra has already stated that he'd do anything to ensure relocations happen which is why we have nanoconstruct in the first place (besides removing the techpoint limitation presumably). It might be something we just have to stick with i guess?
<!--quoteo(post=1943690:date=Jun 15 2012, 09:17 PM:name=Locke504)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locke504 @ Jun 15 2012, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I can guess the logic between the new changes. More res on both sides gives rines more energy for nano and meds and upgrades, and conversely gives aliens more advanced life forms.
What ends up happening though, is rines get all their upgrades so quick that advanced lifeforms don't have as much effect on the field. Couple this with near infinite nano shield and construct, and aliens just get raped.
One good idea proffered was to put nano abilities on a cooldown.
Also, with 4+ rt's, it is almost impossible for rine comm to spend their res quick enough. I had to go double arms labs and robo labs just to get close.
Docking is pretty fun though.
Just my 2 cents.
-Locke<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bite radius seems wrong, and ive never liked nano shield, its TOO much. its the only legit OP function in the game. and ive been saying that since its inception. its just like the old fade blink, looks pretty but screws the game up.
nano construction has no place in the game. what then IS the purpose of macs then? just put cat packs back in the game instead of these game breaking functions.. or idk, put a function in the game that doesnt totally op'ers marine.
if youre so hell bent on adding nano abilities (that wont break the game) then add something like nano scan (spending x amount of tres on a marine and at certain intervals a scan pulse will emit from him. the more marines with him the wider the pulse. then add a time limit and cooldown. not totally op, and adds a function that acts as a benefit without being a total necessity to end the game.
or something like nano repair, where com spends x res on a marine and hes able to repair or build faster for x amount of time. if youre dead set on adding a type of nano shield, create an area effect that acts like a 3 sided force field the com (or even marine) can place on an area, has x health and has a cooldown. turrets cannot shoot through it and it requires a power node.
something that doesnt reward for hitting A and tapping mouse 1 over and over. <hr /> <!--quoteo(post=1943979:date=Jun 16 2012, 05:45 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 16 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that comms need things to do, but..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ehhhhhh??? <hr /> <!--quoteo(post=1943989:date=Jun 16 2012, 07:01 PM:name=crakinshot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crakinshot @ Jun 16 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to say that I loved 209; Loved playing as a lerk. I've played well as a lerk and still lost the game. With 210... its just crap.
I'm sorry but you either need to drop grenade launchers completely or make all explosions hurt friendlies. And Jesus H Christ, optimise the CPU-side code, avoid JIT completely, compile the lua to machine code, do something... this build is slowing down even more now and my GPUs are happily cold.
I don't understand why there was such a huge change. All the marines needed was for their upgrades to cost a little less. Most of the time, if the marines had a few good players they would win. Now its a given.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gl is fine, if anything the blast radius may be a TAD more than it has to be but its tolerable. marines dont need less cost, they need more teamwork, and thats how its always going to be. kharaa owns movement, they will always be able to "move" better.
<!--quoteo(post=1944035:date=Jun 17 2012, 12:23 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jun 17 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The better question is where the heck is the official changelog?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're on track to not having change logs at all any more.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
Just popping in to say that Lerks now are absolutely useless for hitting RTs. In NS1 it was less efficient to use a lerk, but still possible. Now it feels like I might as well just gorge and use spit to take it down... it might go faster.
Comments
If you only have 1 CS, you can only have 1 active nano-shield and/or nano-construct. This would give a greater incentive to secure more techpoints while limiting the nano-spam.
The asymmetrical balance can be described this way: aliens have more AoE buffs (umbra/enzyme) while marines buffs are single target (nano). The balance to this is that marine upgrades are applied to the entire team (weapons/armor) while alien upgrades are individually evolved (carapace/celerity).
I'm very happy with the removal of energy and making comm abilities cost T-res. This will keep the separation of T-res and P-res and remove the confusing energy per structure system that was no really intuitive.
I never really liked asymmetry in game mechanics more than asymmetry in map designs.
I can't really think of a suggestion for nanoshields/construct other than just removing it.
As someone stated previously, it's already hard enough to deal with a Nanoshielded Jetpack squad.
I was hoping they would remove the attack delay on Fade blink for this patch, but instead, they've made Jetpack encounters more of a pain in the ass with infinite nanoshield in ADDITION to slowing down Lerk Bite.
And don't tell me to rely on hydras or whips (NPC) to deal with a Jetpack (human). Absolutely no skill involved.
As for the rest of this build, I'll reserve judgment (especially the new Buy menu).
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->"You can't please anyone these days!"<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The only time I was realistically pleased was when the Skulk was introduced with a temporary speed-boost for the SKILL-BASED wall-jumping (THE 'GENIUS' BUILD).
This was such a great idea because if it was done correctly, it rewarded the player with a small speedboost that was great in closing the distance with a marine, and you could even avoid some of the incoming barrage of bullets down the long ass hallway.
A few builds later, I recall myself wall-jumping down a corridor in Mineshaft while a skulk next to me was just jumping and running in a STRAIGHT LINE.
I expected to be ahead of him, but there he was, still moving in the same speed as I was.
And there it was, as with most (in NS2's case, ALL) good things, it came to an end, and Skulk wall-jump was reduced to utter redundancy.
I can make a whole thread on wall-jump if I wanted to, but I really don't see it coming back now :|.
The only thing that could light a spark of hope for the aliens against Jetpacks is to remove the Fade hit delay during Blink. Right now, the best bet of winning and in dealing with the Jetpack problem?
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Taking out the power node/finishing off the CC with an Onos rush.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That doesn't really do much to solve a problem when it's completely IGNORING Jetpacks in the equation all together.
If you guys can honestly make a big of a gamble in this build with the removal of energy, then certainly removing the hit delay during Blink should be no problem.
PLEASE.
If you only have 1 CS, you can only have 1 active nano-shield and/or nano-construct. This would give a greater incentive to secure more techpoints while limiting the nano-spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a great idea.
What if we combine a cool-down and the dependency of CCs. Add a little number to the button for the times you can use it without cool down. As soon as you use it the first time, a cool-down-circle (like in Command and Conquer) would run clockwise on the button. If the cool down is finished, it allows one additional use. Max uses = amount of CCs.
I cant tell you how many times i said this / called for it, in every means possible, all the way up to the last hour.
I will say though, nanoshield and nanoconstruct need to go. I thought they were a bad idea when they were put into the game, and they still are. They're certainly in direct opposition of the design doc mantra of making NS2 an FPS first and an RTS second, even more so than was the case in NS1 (paraphrased).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd agree except that med/ammo packs already seem to violate the FPS first design. Instant health/ammo anywhere on the map is just as bad (or worse) than quick build/reduced damage. I've regularly helped marines solo 3+ skulks with med/ammo spam long before nanoshield was ever introduced.
Not even close, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post in this thread.
As for med/ammo drops being a similar issue; yes and no. Some degree of comm interaction must be allowed or commanding will be terribly boring and detached. I want to write a longer post about it, but it seems pointless because: It worked fine in NS1 and NS2 is similar enough to make a direct analogy.
That being said, a cooldown on some t.res abilities would definitely be a good idea, even if tech costs/speeds were adjusted.
As for med/ammo drops being a similar issue; yes and no. Some degree of comm interaction must be allowed or commanding will be terribly boring and detached. I want to write a longer post about it, but it seems pointless because: It worked fine in NS1 and NS2 is similar enough to make a direct analogy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure I'd say med/ammo packs worked fine in NS1 as much as it was better than less direct comm interaction. To be frank, I think it could be redesigned to an AOE with a heal/ammo over time that would reduce the wastefulness of unused packs and the instant heal/ammo effect over aliens.
Also, nanoconstruct is mechanic that violates the FPS first design mechanic the least since its main function is macro-related (i.e. building stuff). Now, if may be OP in certain cases (builds RTs or PGs too fast or is too cheap), but that's an argument for adjusting the values, not removing the mechanic. Spending resources to build something faster is a common RTS mechanic that NS1/2 has been missing for a while.
That being said, a cooldown on some t.res abilities would definitely be a good idea, even if tech costs/speeds were adjusted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a really good point.
There are no real tres sinks later in the game. That fact leads to static defense spam, arc spam, cyst spam, and the current nano/med spam. The lack of endgame tres sinks directly results in a majority of the end game's frustrating features. It becomes less about marines vs aliens and more about marines vs buildings, or aliens vs arcs/turrets.
Don't defend a poor mechanic. Nanoconstruct needs to meet the sharp end of an axe. There is a reason why mist no longer affects alien structures. Both Nano-shield and medpacks needs to put on a cooldown system as well. Same with cysts.
At the current rate this game is heading everyone better grab a life preserver quick.
At the current rate this game is heading everyone better grab a life preserver quick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One could say, that staring at a building for several seconds in an FPS is a bad mechanic. There is nothing bad in the idea of nano-construct. It is just to strong and needs a viable counter on the alien side. If marines can fast build, aliens should have an abilities to fast destroy the buildings. It just has to be equal and not a 200% effect.
I'm quite sure everyone was talking about nanoshield being bad for FPS-gameplay, because meds+shield are overkill for protection. I think meds giving health over time makes sense, but on the other hand, meds worked in NS1 (as fana said).
About nano-construct:
I feel like NS is not just the right game for it. For most buildings the buildingtime is already not that long, so it is only needed in the few cases of a pg or maybe getting up a rt in the frontlines. In both cases it just steals the aliens a good chance to react to it. I always felt like getting those buildings up in dangerous territory were the most intense as a marine.
Sure, lets give Alien Kham a player targeted ability that increases their attack rate and boosts energy regen.
Now Aliens can chomp down a power node in 1-2 seconds and a com station in 5-10 seconds, or kill Marines before they could even blink. That just caused more issues than the initial problem, not to mention more work of balancing instead of just removing nano construction.
Less is more. Get rid of nano construction (and nano shield).
Iceburg ahoy!
Nanoshield is a little trickier, since it directly and massively affects the outcome of any engagement, something you probably don't want in an FPS, certainly not one that wants to cater to competitive player. I would argue it's fine on buildings but may need some tweaking on players, or just attempt tweaking it first as well.
sg is now dangerous good thing too, i get a duble kill today and sg feel more like ns1.
good build but still bad optimisation, 20 fps with low graphism with 8 giga ram and 560ti, I hop for the release it will be mmore stable.
so this game for a proper release just need one more map and more optimisation, good job anyway.
What processor do you have? I have 8gb ram and 560t like you but get 50-60fps with 4.0ghz processor.
I'm sorry you believe this. While alien supremacy is indeed over, Marines are now top dog. Balance of power has completely shifted in favor of Marines. The team resource collection rate just demonstrates the fact that Marine's scaling and tech is far superior to what aliens' have to offer. Especially with how they are now getting their tech even faster. Nano-shield and medpack spam is through the roof while Aliens have no equivalent. Edit: Lerks are back to being garbage. Fades are still garbage vs JPs, toss in nano-shield and the JPs are nearly invincible. JPs have no counter.
If aliens are not able to shut Marines down (IE Marines still in possession of their frontal lobes) within the first 2-5 minutes of the game, then its going to be nearly impossible for Aliens to pull a win.
The cooldown will help with spamming RTs, but won't fix the problem with PGs. A PG going up or not is such a game changer that it's imperative that the aliens have some time to try to stop it. Nanoconstruct almost entirely removes that window of time where the aliens can attack and wipe out the marines before they get the PG up.
...and don't even try suggesting making it so PGs can't be nanoconstructed -- this game really doesn't need any more hidden modifiers.
Keep It Simple Stupid.
I'm wondering if this sentiment is shared by other comms, that nano-construct gives "a lot of depth and choices", because I don't see it. I agree that comms need things to do, but I rather see features like drifters who can use enzyme-cloud to support their team.
I'm sorry but you either need to drop grenade launchers completely or make all explosions hurt friendlies. And Jesus H Christ, optimise the CPU-side code, avoid JIT completely, compile the lua to machine code, do something... this build is slowing down even more now and my GPUs are happily cold.
I don't understand why there was such a huge change. All the marines needed was for their upgrades to cost a little less. Most of the time, if the marines had a few good players they would win. Now its a given.
Admittedly, this is all that nanoconstruct really does. It gives me something to do other than staring at a bunch of marines building an RT. The only changing variables when using nanoconstruct on RT's are opportunity cost and estimation of RT life span. Not alot of depth at all. Given a certain nanoconstruct cost we will eventually see a corresponding cookie cutter build.
Not a fan of artificial cooldowns on abilities in a game like ns2. They only hide the underlying problem and cause the decision making to become MMO like where its "nano construct every time its off cooldown" because its a good deal for its res cost. It would be better to find that 'balanced' res cost that acts as a soft counter to construct spam by ensuring it is never economically viable. I guess it all comes down to the intended purpose of nanoconstruct which is a design question that we mortal forum users can't answer.
For pg's and relo's, i think it highly unlikely nanoconstruct will ever be removed for the good reasons already stated. Flayra has already stated that he'd do anything to ensure relocations happen which is why we have nanoconstruct in the first place (besides removing the techpoint limitation presumably). It might be something we just have to stick with i guess?
What ends up happening though, is rines get all their upgrades so quick that advanced lifeforms don't have as much effect on the field. Couple this with near infinite nano shield and construct, and aliens just get raped.
One good idea proffered was to put nano abilities on a cooldown.
Also, with 4+ rt's, it is almost impossible for rine comm to spend their res quick enough. I had to go double arms labs and robo labs just to get close.
Docking is pretty fun though.
Just my 2 cents.
-Locke<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bite radius seems wrong, and ive never liked nano shield, its TOO much. its the only legit OP function in the game. and ive been saying that since its inception. its just like the old fade blink, looks pretty but screws the game up.
nano construction has no place in the game. what then IS the purpose of macs then? just put cat packs back in the game instead of these game breaking functions.. or idk, put a function in the game that doesnt totally op'ers marine.
if youre so hell bent on adding nano abilities (that wont break the game) then add something like nano scan (spending x amount of tres on a marine and at certain intervals a scan pulse will emit from him. the more marines with him the wider the pulse. then add a time limit and cooldown. not totally op, and adds a function that acts as a benefit without being a total necessity to end the game.
or something like nano repair, where com spends x res on a marine and hes able to repair or build faster for x amount of time. if youre dead set on adding a type of nano shield, create an area effect that acts like a 3 sided force field the com (or even marine) can place on an area, has x health and has a cooldown. turrets cannot shoot through it and it requires a power node.
something that doesnt reward for hitting A and tapping mouse 1 over and over.
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<!--quoteo(post=1943979:date=Jun 16 2012, 05:45 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 16 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that comms need things to do, but..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ehhhhhh???
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<!--quoteo(post=1943989:date=Jun 16 2012, 07:01 PM:name=crakinshot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crakinshot @ Jun 16 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to say that I loved 209; Loved playing as a lerk. I've played well as a lerk and still lost the game. With 210... its just crap.
I'm sorry but you either need to drop grenade launchers completely or make all explosions hurt friendlies. And Jesus H Christ, optimise the CPU-side code, avoid JIT completely, compile the lua to machine code, do something... this build is slowing down even more now and my GPUs are happily cold.
I don't understand why there was such a huge change. All the marines needed was for their upgrades to cost a little less. Most of the time, if the marines had a few good players they would win. Now its a given.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gl is fine, if anything the blast radius may be a TAD more than it has to be but its tolerable. marines dont need less cost, they need more teamwork, and thats how its always going to be. kharaa owns movement, they will always be able to "move" better.
We're on track to not having change logs at all any more.