Opportunity for the old GL to still live.

Angry Hillbilly 2 · June 2012

I wholey agree with the move to make the GL a seperate weapon as the gl attachment was getting a little bit ridiculus with the zero trade off.

HOWEVER I think it is an oppertunity to support an entirely new play style/tactics and convert the old GL to become a support role and fire specilised ammunition. The model and animations are all there it would just require a bit of coding and a few particle effects :) The rifle attachment would need to be researched along with the ammunition type or perhaps in levels to release the more effective ones later in game. A marrine would have to choose 1 of the list and the capacity is as said. Would take a few seconds to get ammo for these from armoury to stop spamming

Ideas For ammuntion types:

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Tracer Dart:</span></b> (Maximum Capacity of 2)
This could be an marrine version of paracite and could be incredibly useful for tracking unwanted skulks and esspecially larger targets such as Onos or Fade. Would run out of battery after a bit, would give a bit of a warning for local marrines allowing for preperation.

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Smoke Shell</span></b> (Maximum Capacity 2 or 1)
Could be a very effective way of gaining ground when aliens have an area copmletely locked down. Alien Vision cannot penetrate it giveing marrines that much needed cover and hunt the usual hunters.

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Flare</span></b> (Maximum Capacity 2)
Does what it says on the tin. Would give marrines a bit more of a fighting chance in blackout rooms would have a medium lighting area but is ceratinly better than complete darkness.

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Mini Cam</span></b> (Maximum Capacity 1)
Would be fired from the launcher and with a toggle button the marrine would be able to go full screen and look around on the cam from a fixed point and perhaps fix the point of it and it would appear as a small screen at the bottom/top right/left hand side of screen as a little screen seeing through the cam (able to toggle on and off). Could be very useful for scouting. Early warning and stopping marrines getting bitten in the ass. (think of the mini screen size in advanced warfighter where u could see through ur buddies eyes that sorta size screen). This would also run out of battery after a while perhaps 30 sec to a couple of min cant decide.

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Decoy</span></b> (Maximum Capacity 1)
Would put up a holographic marrine for a few seconds and in the heat of battle could certainly confuse a skulk just enough to give the marrine the upper hand. Hologram would appear distorted in Fade blink view (maybe alien view but personally i dont want to encorage its use too much as theres not much of a trade off with it atm but hey ho its getting fixed.)

These are only things I can think of for types of ammunition which could all be used as a vital support role Im sure people can think of many others.

I dont think there would be a need for a very large trade off of useing it as they are support weapons and in effect a mini upgrade just as aliens get carapace/celerity...etc perhaps oen trade off is its heavier so takes 20% extra time to draw weapon...etc to be discussed.

<sub>edit: Corrected topic title from Oppertunity to Opportunity, sorry, could not resist. -Zaggy</sub>

Drummer · June 2012

interesting ideas, but i doubt the devs will do something like this, the two sides need to be asymmetrical. and these ideas are just copies of alien abilities

tracer dart = parasite
smoke shell = spore
mini cam = drifter
decoy = hallucination

the only unique idea is flare, which might actually work. but why have 2 similar weapons? how about a flashbang? after all, ns1 had hand grenades, with ns2 having the lighting system, a flashbang might be a cool idea. certainly it would be post-1.0 tho

Papayas · June 2012

Marine*

Not MarRine.

And what the 2nd post said.

And flare = Scan, an ability the marines can already do.

TimMc · June 2012

Tracer dart - Too similar to an obs.

Smoke shell - Its established that alien vision can see through smoke, so them not being able to would be odd.

Flare - Nice idea, could be useful but likely will not. I imagine if it screwed up alien vision (too bright, flushed out the colour?) it would be useful.

Mini cam - Sounds too complicated to operate, doesn't really suit the gameplay currently we have.

Decoy - Part of me likes this, and aliens sort of already have this. Seems more suited to something that would be deployed, rather than shot from a weapon though.

WorthyRival · June 2012

This is a great idea.
And I'm with King Mobs opinion below I just think the ammo types need to be more interesting/specialized.

I'd like a grenade round that acted like a beacon scan.
Marine would get 3-4 Shells ?

You would fire the shell.
Shell would land and pulse a scan sweep till a alien chomped the shell.

1 Chomp destroys the shell.
Easy for aliens to find as the scan sweeps pulse radius gives away it's location.

Great accompanyment for ARC sieges.

kingmob · June 2012

I like the idea of repurposing the art asset.
I like the idea of other types of ammunition to purchase/research

I just wasn't blown away with the ammo types.
I am not hung up on the asymetrical thing...I just wanna see something different.

couldn't they be stolen from RPG's instead (ice,fire dmg)
they smoke grenade and flare I could see ... I am one of those aliens that doesn't leave 'alien vision' on all the time.

Overall nice fresh idea for a thread.

Wonderboy2402 · June 2012

Despite what other people are saying. I like ALL these ideas. Particularly the tracking dart. That one just seems pretty cool and I doubt it would be that hard to code in.

Flares is ok too. Not sure it really is needed with flashlights and the emergency lights but could be fun to try out.

Right now GL is pretty boring and difficult to score kills on anything...

_Necro_ · June 2012

Nah, I don't like the ideas too. It's to complicated and not a clear design. The only thing I could imagine would be a flash-bang attachment for the LMG. Like you buy the mines in the armory you would buy that. It would blind an alien only for 2 secs but for 5 secs if it had alien-vision on. This way we could use the model and get a reason for the aliens to have AV not always on.

But this may be to op...

weezl · June 2012

@OP I liked it alot when I first read it, but then Drummer pointed out it was similar to the alien abilities.
(in "reality", the technology of two different races would automatically converge since the needs in combat are universally the same, but this is supposed to be an asymmetric game by design. if it would strive for maximum realism and believability we'd have something completely different.)

Anyway, I've already made a suggestion in the Q&A#1:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 9 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Suggestion for the GL problem:

-Add a standalone and dedicated GL!
-Make the GL-attachment (GL-A) a weaker type of attack!

The "main" GL would be the hard-hitter/demolition, with long fuse-time, long range and large damage - just like in NS1!
The current GL-A would be a weaker type tactical-support with short fuse; and thereby short range, and with smaller damage.
Then there's a bunch of tweaks I personally would like to do to the GL-A, that might be some brainstorming for you...

-Maybe make it explode on contact (like GL-A was when first introduced into ns2).
This would definitely differentiate the two GL:s, the demolitions GL would have the classic ns1 explode-on-contact-with-enemy and be more used as a siege-weapon.
While the tactical GL-A would (with appriate dmg ofc) be much more practical versus lifeforms.
-As far as structure-dmg goes, have it only be effective against "small" structures, basically hydras+cysts (maybe a little less vs hydras).
-Versus players, it shouldn't 1-shot a skulk!
Maybe 2 shot skulk when no upg, w1 makes it 1-shot skulk, cara makes it 2-shot again, w2 makes it 1-shot again. This way there would be an arms-race between the two. Tradeoffs.
-Maybe have it be less effective vs onos (but in return he's MUCH easier to hit and target-magnet), and only slightly less effective vs fade, because both are "bigger" lifeforms. Skulk/gorge/lerk/ take full dmg.</div>

New thoughts: The GL-A can be the NS1 handgrenade incarnation in NS2 if it bounces. It would be a cheap research for comm, a cheap buy for marines, and thereby fit as a weak attachment to the standard (weak) weapon. Drawback is that by bouncing it's similar to the dedicated GL...

Rowen · June 2012

More random ideas for alternate GL ammunition:

Incendiary grenade: Same effects as yet to fully develop flamethrower, the limited ammo would avoid stepping on it's toes too much.
Nerve gas: Specifically designed for alien physiology, it damages / drains them of energy / impedes energy regeneration / slightly slows them (pick option) while the alien is in the area of effect.
Hollow charge: Designed for bigger and slower lifeforms, explodes on hit and deals high single target damage and gets bonuses against armor but has no explosion radius. A good candidate for rifle attachment, I think.

sam8uca · June 2012

Awesome way to go!

Always loved SWAT3/4 with the teamwork and toys, but need to keep the NS2 speed.

I would make it a single ammo type that does multiple things to make it quick and simple...

Short range and limited time mini obs instead of tracer and cam.

Combine flare and smoke to give light and disrupt alien vision (like chaff, effects the wavelength of alien vision, not normal vision).

The light source (Marine blue of course) would let the aliens know it was being used.

Make it able to bounce round corners, but maybe not on infestation to force the Marine to enter an infested room to use it.

Let's a squad be a bit more tactical without Com support and counters darkness. The darkness thing bugs me, all modern forces use night vision, the individual Marine in NS2 is pretty low tech compared to modern day troops.

Angry Hillbilly 2 · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drummer @ Jun 4 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>interesting ideas, but i doubt the devs will do something like this, the two sides need to be asymmetrical. and these ideas are just copies of alien abilities

tracer dart = parasite
smoke shell = spore
mini cam = drifter
decoy = hallucination

the only unique idea is flare, which might actually work. but why have 2 similar weapons? how about a flashbang? after all, ns1 had hand grenades, with ns2 having the lighting system, a flashbang might be a cool idea. certainly it would be post-1.0 tho</div>

Asymetrical doesnt mean that both teams have to be ENTIRELY asymetrical. Like Weezel said in reality both esspecially marrine will have developed tech to assist. I think they tracer and smoke...etc are asymetrical enough. With aliens the spores are a constant stream of choking gas. Smoke (or perhaps a blinding flashbang like ppl have said aliens can see through smoke with AV) is a single shot burst.

Decoy would be a single holgraphic static image that would last a few seconds and hallucination is a chemical that as far as we know is gonna make ###### go nuts on the screen :P

Yea im certainly in 2 minds about the mini cam as it would take a bit to get to work but i still like the idea of having a visual in vents n stuff or perhaps fire one through to the hive base to get a good spotting.

Im a little iffy on firing beacon darts. I had thought of them but then thought would this perhaps make commander beacon uselss unless it was a much smaller area and shorter time blip. (although too small and its pretty useless.

I had also thought of a couple of offensive attachements like people have said such as a Holo round..etc. I was going to have a shotgun shell firer or slug to the list for a bit of help for marrines in close encounters but a shotgun shell would perhaps make the shotgun less used. A slug round might be rather handy as its very specific for accurcy but i dunno.

Another couple of ideas that came to me are:

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Herbicide</span> (capacity 1) (tier 3)
When fired is very effective at taking out cysts and causing Infestaion to retract. It also causes slight damage to alien buildings and confuses Hydras.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Repair dart</span> (Capacity 2) (tier 1/2)
When fired at a damaged building it contains nanites which are relased and will repair *insert number* amount of health over so many seconds of that building. Is not stackable and is effective on exo suits as well. Useful in combat however bile bomb disables the nanites instantaniously.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">Xenorepellent</span> (Capacity 1) (tier 2)
When fired it sticks to the ground and releases a high pitched beyond human hearing sound (as in alien players can hear it but not marrines, not an irritateing sound to the alien player.) that will cause the alien players screen to distort for a few seconds when within that small zone. Could be VERY useful for perhaps getting those skulks from chewin on nodes.

Soylent_green · June 2012

How about a grenade that flies stably(points in the direction of flight) and has a shaped charge. A direct hit on an alien ignores armor and does a flat percentage damage to health(I don't know, 20% of base health?). It is contact fused and explodes immediately on impact. Anything other than a direct hit does bugger all damage(say, a small spherical explosion of max 10 normal damage if you are right ontop of it).

On a skulk with a base health of 70 you would do an amazing 14 HP damage with a direct hit and no AP damage and you would have to nail the skulk with a direct hit; this is useless. You are far better off just shooting the skulk with your LMG.

But on an onos, which is a big target that is relatively easy to hit even with a slow-moving projectile, 20% of base health is a considerable amount of damage. This is an anti-onos weapon essentially; in a pinch you might fire one off at a fade when he is inattentive or gets right in your face.

It should probably not be very effective against structures for game play reasons.

bobrun · June 2012

Mmm, the goal of a grenade launcher is to clear an area, I don't think moving from that objective is really what the GL needs. The GL needs something to create space. If there's no space, Aliens have the advantage with their melee attacks. With a lot of space, Marines gets the advantage with their ranged attacks.

I think a sort of "wind" bomb could be what the GL needs. Similar to a grenade, but instead of doing damage, it push back strongly aliens AND marines around it. Like, if you received it at your feet, you get push back for around 15 feet. A grenade like that would create space for marines to fight better (easier to fight when the skulk is 20 feet from than 2), without altering the state of the aliens (no sickness or flames).

The push back effect could be similar to what is currently on the IP, simply stronger.

WorthyRival · June 2012

Rounds that are individually researchable to help deal with particular lifeforms might work.
The rounds would assist in trapping the life form for a very limited time. Will not kill.

Onos Round. Fires a slippy sludge on the ground that an onos will gain no traction on. Onos Moves slow on sludge. Best used in long corridors.
Or like Ice if run onto sludge turning ablities lost Ineria momentum carries onos said direction. Best used in corners.

Fade Round. Fire rounds into opposite walls in a corridor creates a small disruption field that nulifys fades blick and vortex abilitiy. Fades can walk through field. Good for setting up ambushs fades cannot blick past these fields if they try they are pulled into real world and cannot blink for 5 seconds.

Lerk Round. Round attaches to roofs only. Pulses a small stun field. Lerks can't fly into they must walk past. Flying past you drop out of the sky. best placed in tight areas like doorways as field is small doesn't reach the floor.

Infestation Round. Slows growth rate of infestation. Round expells a gas that covers the ground in a knee high mist. Best used when spawn locations are besieged with infestation. Or cyst spam. *Warning Skulks are extra hard to see in mist like little sharks circling*

rhez · June 2012

Another idea: remote detonation grenades

Fire a grenade that lodges in an alien but doesn't explode until the alternate fire is pressed again :D

Soylent_green · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bobrun @ Jun 5 2012, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Mmm, the goal of a grenade launcher is to clear an area</div>

We already have a dedicated grenade launcher for that. If the GL attachment for the LMG is to survive it must be something very different.

Soylent_green · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ Jun 6 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Another idea: remote detonation grenades

Fire a grenade that lodges in an alien but doesn't explode until the alternate fire is pressed again :D</div>

Tried and rejected as massively overpowered.

Angry Hillbilly 2 · June 2012

Yea im agreeing with Soylent on that one. Remote detination generally can be very OP. Esspecially in a game like NS lol. And i was thinking of this attachement of having much more of a support role than a offensive role. A couple of Tier 3 could have mid offensive capabilites but nothing groudbreaking. More to assist and take lead role unlike what the GL did/does.

The individual lifeform rounds is an interesting idea but im not quite sure how it would play out. The Onos oil slick round is very ammusing but i dont think a bit of ice is gonna stop an 8 ton (metric) beast from charging :P to be honest thats only gonna make it unable to stop and imagne going onto ice with celerity full pelt.....8 ton beast + 30mph = a very large mess :P

(quick crunch of the numbers (ignoring air resistence and assuming friction is negligble cus of the ice) (8000kg x 13.46m/s^-1) /1.5s on the ice = 71605N of force which to put it in persepective thats pretty much a fully loaded lorry comming at you xD OMG MAKE IT HAPPEN!) ....wow im really avoiding studying doing that....

TimMc · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jun 6 2012, 02:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>We already have a dedicated grenade launcher for that. If the GL attachment for the LMG is to survive it must be something very different.</div>

I don't think that is ever coming back. It was too much of an upgrade for the LMG - there was no trade off for the grenades.

I would like special ammo for the current, dedicated grenade launcher though.

_Necro_ · June 2012

It could make it back, if it is only a very little or not at all a combat upgrade.
Like the mines are. It could fulfill a situational job. We just need the right idea. Because the graphic and animation is done, it would be cheap to develop. But it must be something that isn't a combat-advantage.

Align · June 2012

When they say "the GL attachment coming back" they don't mean necessarily as an actual grenade launcher, just that it uses the same model (since we already have that).
I just wonder how that could be accomplished without presenting us with the same problem the GL attachment had, of being overall superior to the regular LMG.

TimMc · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 6 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>When they say "the GL attachment coming back" they don't mean necessarily as an actual grenade launcher, just that it uses the same model (since we already have that).
I just wonder how that could be accomplished without presenting us with the same problem the GL attachment had, of being overall superior to the regular LMG.</div>
Maybe the LMG isn't full auto anymore? Only burst fire? Seems like the easiest change.

Angry Hillbilly 2 · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 6 2012, 06:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe the LMG isn't full auto anymore? Only burst fire? Seems like the easiest change.</div>

Id agree with some sort of auto nerf with the attachement bit burst fire with the speek that aliens are is just asking to be eaten :P u need full auto unless you're a dead eye shot which doesnt come easy. Id say perhaps say the SUPPORT ATTACHMENT (NOT GL launcher) takes more power so slowers rate of fire i dunno.

But a huge nerf wouldnt be needed in my eyes as the original idea is these attachemnts are support non offensive (except for high tier ones) like the ones suggested. Everybodys suddnely going OMG HOW ABOUT MAGICAL GRENADE THAT IS REMODTE.... lol which tbh is going to make things worse than the orignal GL :P The ways of nerfing a marrine player are:

<b>Lowers the amount of rifle ammo that can be carried</b> (would certainly be a sensible trade off less space..etc I rather like this one)

<b>Weapon draw time</b> (perhaps the gun is heavier which it is but not that heavy surely)

<b>Manuvirablity </b> (however people could just adjust this with mouse sentiivity)

<b>Walking speed </b> (again its heavier but surely it doesnt look that heavy...)

Soylent_green · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 6 2012, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I just wonder how that could be accomplished without presenting us with the same problem the GL attachment had, of being overall superior to the regular LMG.</div>

I don't think that's a problem. Players <b>should</b> prefer a gun of their choice bought from the armory over a free gun if they're swimming in P-res. The problem with the old GL was that it was simply too useful at too many things.

Having a welder, or mines or a jetpack is always superior. If you're swiming in P-res you would always splurge for those things because there's no situation in which there is a noticable speed penalty or something for having them. The niche filled by having standard light armor is that it's gratis; the nichÃ© filled by the LMG is that it's free. If both teams are constantly swimming in P-res, then your prices are simply much too low.

Krovakon · June 2012

Perhaps making the Rifle butt more useful could be a solution

As we all know taking a Rifle w/launcher disables your ability to rifle butt. So right there could be a potentially vital trade off.

Increase the Rifle Butts usefulness and give an activation range on the grenade launcher attachment (If fired within certain range, will not explode)

This way there is a trade-off. Grenades can be used to siege lightly fortified positions while maintaining medium to long-range capabilities. However with no rifle butt to kill/push back the skulk, and with the inability to sacrifice yourself to kill that skulk with a grenade, He's just going to chew you apart if he gets close.

Just a thought~

Angry Hillbilly 2 · June 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krovakon @ Jun 7 2012, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>grenade launcher attachment (If fired within certain range, will not explode)
Grenades</div>

Support attachemnt. Not a grenade launcher attachemnet any more... lol :P

Support attachments. No grenades. We have a big ass launcher for that now.

However the idea of removing rifle butt is another trade off. And i agree with Solyant (again lol) people should prefer paid for stuff than free stuff if that makes sense :P

WorthyRival · June 2012

Maybe the attachment could be like a mini ammo factory that over time refilled your empty LMG ammo clips.
Would seem like a great investment for confident players
Not over powered. same as an ammo request to a commander

Could replenish 1 magazine every 30 seconds.

Sint · June 2012

Separate throwable flashbang granades would be nice, which would block both alien views. Maybe that droppable decoy would be also good, would help to kill overwhelming force of skulks for example if they go for it.

weezl · June 2012

great idea: it could be used as a UTILITY attachment!
most fitting according to me: something that increases dmg, so it sort of replaces HMG.
maybe lower firerate to half, but increase dmg 3x (would be 150% dmg, hmg was 200% but lower accuracy)

but other utility functions are also possible.

maybe it can be a stronger shotgun type attachment (similar to an under-barrel one), that has to be reloaded between each shot...

DarkOmen · June 2012

How about some sort of nano-targetting "grenade" launcher. The "grenade" shines a light on every target that it sees, causing other weapons to deal bonus damage to it's targets?

<ul><li>Support attachment</li><li>Doesn't overlap with any commander abilities</li><li>Works nicely with preemptive comm scanning</li><li>May be used by Marines to spearhead assaults</li><li>Cannot be used in a reactionary fashion; to kill an ambushing skulk, etc. <= (Drawback versus vanilla LMG)</li><li>Cannot be held along with a more powerful weapon <= (Drawback versus vanilla LMG)</li></ul>

Very marine IMO.

Opportunity for the old GL to still live.

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