twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
IMO Spore should leave a (less drastic) DoT effect on Marines, as it is too easy to avoid taking damage from Spores.
The current Bite may be powerful, but it just turns the Lerk in to another alien melee "assassin" class, beside Skulk and Fade. Unfortunately, the Lerk does not shine in that role, as the Skulk is more expandable, and the Fade is less risky and more powerful in that role.
I have to go with the Shotgun Spike camp on this debate. At least the Lerk will then have its own unique role.
<!--quoteo(post=1940683:date=May 31 2012, 09:32 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 31 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone explain to me the purpose of Damage Over Time? I want to deal damage NOW, not next week...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm still not sure about this myself. Skulks that stay alive to keep attacking are able to deal 'damage over time', just like a hypothetical lerk that doesn't use bite/spores.
Making an attack deal initial damage followed by "free" damage introduces all kinds of complexity. The fact that the damage of the DoT effect can be called "free" means it has to be paired with some kind of harsh penalty. In our case that's high risk entering melee range and low initial damage. This muddles things, so to speak - is the point of biting to deal the initial damage or the follow-up damage? Is it both? When would it ever be appropriate to do both, in terms of risk taken flying up close, rate of damage vs likelihood of meds arriving and so on? It just seems wrong. It's obviously powerful right now, because the 'numbers' are wrong - when those get tweaked to a perceived fair level, you'll have a weaker attack that is still just as complicated.
Whenever performance gets a big improvement from LUA changes etc, it would be a good idea to paste in the old shotgun spike code and try "that" lerk for a few days. I think it would work better while playing almost the exact same.
Swap spike and bite around so that bite is an upgrade, this way you would not have to tweak bite as much if at all due to it coming into the game later (unless khamm sacrifices something else).
This would encourage lerks to use the gas and fly around a lot, when your lerk starts biting it stops using the spores. It goes from being a partial support to all out attack unit which has definately changed how the games played (which is not always a bad thing). The DoT does not make the lerk fly in and out of battle it just stays and munches like a skulk would...just with a kicker in the bite.
If bites going to be useful in later game then umbra really needs to be bombed and not a projectile (I dont need an umbra cloud 5 metres in front of me...I need one around me as I try to attack an extractor/pg/rine etc or behind me as I flee from some rines). Umbra always made sense as a bombed weapon and not a projectile.
If lerk bite does light damage is probably affected by the same bug i posted about earlier that got passed up i think, which was with how they handle damage calculations.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
thanks twiliteblue, i'll report that / see if its intended
ontopic: i'd prefer less immediate damage from bite, but i'd leave the DoT alone. its nice flying in for one bite per marine. keeps you alive, harasses the hell out of the marines / drains resources / delays them.
<!--quoteo(post=1940746:date=Jun 1 2012, 10:26 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jun 1 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If lerk bite does light damage is probably affected by the same bug i posted about earlier that got passed up i think, which was with how they handle damage calculations.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118519" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118519</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've made a bug report with the information in that thread. Thanks.
Thx to twiliteblue and xDragon for finding that bug. If the damage calculation for light damage is really bugged, there is no sense in a balance discussion about the lerk bite. It obviously does to much damage because of the bug.
Ignoring this bug, I like the direction that the lerk takes with this DOT based bite. Contrary to other claims I have seen no single lerk that does not use spore anymore. Every lerk that engaged me, spored first to circle me unseen and than he bit me in the ass. The low energy needed for bite allows use of spores anyway.
If the damage calculation gets fixed, the lerk could fit his support / harass role even better.
Tux ( Defender of the while lerks <3 ) something is wrong With the actually lerk.. He can fly away in the squad of marines with fews turrets in the room and just don't die. It's a joke. He need to be more glass canon with less resist or less damage for actually resist. Or just a better hitbox..
We agree the bite is a bit OP at the moment, and we have already reduced the rate of fire of it a bit. We may decrease the initial damage it does as well, but we're definitely going to give the new lerk a good amount of time to play out before changing the values too much.
I think as is the case with all lifeforms really, the biggest issue is when everyone on the team goes lerk, which is super easy, and super powerful. (Probably even more powerful than mass BB lerk in the day since it requires no alien tech to be viable) Just had a game where we lost against mass lerks, despite aliens being locked to 2 - 3 RTs at most with us at 5 - 6.
Yeah, something is definitly wrong with the lerk, as it can easily kill a squad of 3 or 4 marines without taking big damages if he just gas a bit the marines and fly until they empty their clips, and bite them to death.
I agree with the general sentiment (and cory's solution), but in the long run the most important area to balance lerk bite might be its damage vs structures. To make sure the skulk is still useful - the bite damage vs structures needs to be balanced carefully. I think it's already lower, so reduced bite speed might be enough, we'll have to see...
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1940910:date=Jun 1 2012, 05:44 PM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ Jun 1 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with the general sentiment (and cory's solution), but in the long run the most important area to balance lerk bite might be its damage vs structures. To make sure the skulk is still useful - the bite damage vs structures needs to be balanced carefully. I think it's already lower, so reduced bite speed might be enough, we'll have to see...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk in the test build is no good against structures, with bite at least, because the rate has been reduced a lot. But spikes are still pretty good once you get more abilities.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle. The problem isn't that the bite is too strong, the problem is that the lerk is too tough. With the armor buff, shotgun nerf and super-poor performance, it's like a flying tank.
I am a dedicated Lerk player. I play it almost exclusively through all these builds... even those where it has been pathetic.
My impression so far in this build is that Bite is definitely to strong. I've waited with anticipation to see a good lerk buff. But I admit something is certainly off with it in 209.
First: If the emphasis is to get the lerk into close range. Well, bite certainly does that. It is very snappy when you are chasing down a marine, almost rapid fire bites. I think the speed of bite needs to be reduced. Lerk should be more of a "peck" or "finesse" bite. Could a sort of "Charge up" bite be interesting? Charging for up to three second would yield a harder strike while spamming bite would be lighter fast attacks? The skulk can be the snappy rabid one leaping into the fray and tearing them to pieces. The Lerk would be the opportunist and harasser, with the assists. Swooping in and out with a strong single nip.
The poison is something I really like. If the bite damage is reduced (which I would be ok with), a stronger neurotoxin might be appropriate... The lerk could be a good way to strip marine health while leaving their armor intact with the poison bite and the gas spores.
Second: I think lerk poison bite should be the second upgrade ability. Spikes should be the default at start. Matchups right now with lerk bite / early marine, the marine is going to die, maybe even two or three of his buddies too. With spikes you can 1v1 marines and it is satisfying to both (as good shooting will drive off a lerk, and nimble lerk can quickly wittle down and kill a solo rifle marine). Each can get their hits in, with still the favor towards lerk. As it is a 30 res lifeform. As marines get advanced upgrades, the poison would be a good counter to the increasing armor.
Now reading this thread there maybe some calculation issues with damage and a change in shotgun spread. I don't mind testing the current lerk and hopefully it turns out that there is just a error in some of the code.
The lerk bite is fine how it is to be honest. It's the buff to the lerks starting armor which makes 1 on 1 combat vs the lerk impossible for a marine. Literally a marine cannot do as much DPS as the lerk and it has more armor as well. So, it's just a balance fail overall.
Lerks should not be a rambo class like they are now. I think the point of poison bite it to get in and get the bite then leave allowing the marine to lose health then coming back in to finish it off. Does this ever happen? No... because it isn't needed. A single marine cannot kill a lerk so no point for him to play safely and skillfully.
<!--quoteo(post=1940910:date=Jun 1 2012, 05:44 PM:name=ubikjam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ubikjam @ Jun 1 2012, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with the general sentiment (and cory's solution), but in the long run the most important area to balance lerk bite might be its damage vs structures. To make sure the skulk is still useful - the bite damage vs structures needs to be balanced carefully. I think it's already lower, so reduced bite speed might be enough, we'll have to see...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to be really careful with this one - it's already tremendously annoying to kill RTs as a lerk because of the spike adrenaline change, and it IS something the lerk should be able to do if nobody stops you....
<!--quoteo(post=1940831:date=Jun 1 2012, 10:52 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 1 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We agree the bite is a bit OP at the moment, and we have already reduced the rate of fire of it a bit. We may decrease the initial damage it does as well, but we're definitely going to give the new lerk a good amount of time to play out before changing the values too much.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool thats probably fair. I think a slow Rate of Fire would be a better change honestly.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1940917:date=Jun 1 2012, 06:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 1 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle. The problem isn't that the bite is too strong, the problem is that the lerk is too tough. With the armor buff, shotgun nerf and super-poor performance, it's like a flying tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the changes to bite speed and the shotgun fix.. I was getting torn up in the PT with the same amount of armor + cara. Then again we'll just have to wait and see how it fairs when released.
The armor buff was more towards the performance boosts that are coming soon; can potentially mean that it's OP in this patch, but negated in the next.
<!--quoteo(post=1940917:date=Jun 1 2012, 06:46 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 1 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle. The problem isn't that the bite is too strong, the problem is that the lerk is too tough. With the armor buff, shotgun nerf and super-poor performance, it's like a flying tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this. I also think that the lerk didn't need more health, he just needs his old speed back. When shotguns are viable again the lerk won't be able to go freely into melee range. A skilled marine will take him down easily.
hrmm you know what might be interesting... instead of a bite how 'bout a kindda marine latch-on skill.. now there is no way a lerk could pick up a marine, but left4dead's jockey... so a lerk could sort of steer the marine over a clif or just aim him the other way (gl spammer) just a thought might be pretty funny... i just picture a bird flaping around franticly on a dude's face... or a turtle in a man's beard... wait.. damn drugs
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->I disagree, people should clearly practice more. Also, I do believe I'm quite inebriated..hic! 2nd warning<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1940969:date=Jun 1 2012, 10:46 PM:name=tux77)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tux77 @ Jun 1 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noobs noobs noobs dont whine get skill !!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's difficult when I can't aim at lerks without stripping down the game's graphics to an absurd level, in a game where half the entertainment value comes from the quality of the graphics and art direction
Just try to aim it again and again and you will see the result, like in mairne is you cant do some straft jump shoot or in skulk fot BH etcc you are underskilled ! practice and practice again and lerk will be a target not a oppnenent, just practice!!!!!!!!!!
sometime i play lerk and get flash lerked like in ns1 by sg and so son and i never whine because im low skilled i just try to be better....... do the same
and play in lwo level of graphic s like the old use of r_mode unlit and get mp_consistancy going up plz UWE :)
<!--quoteo(post=1940917:date=Jun 2 2012, 12:46 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 2 2012, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you guys are looking at it from the wrong angle. The problem isn't that the bite is too strong, the problem is that the lerk is too tough. With the armor buff, shotgun nerf and super-poor performance, it's like a flying tank.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
Thanks cory. Id rather take a slow process to this, the ROF is a definite plus atleast its not the same speed as a skulk to differentiate it. The shotgun fix and the damage calculations fix should put things in line. Excited to see how things go.
Comments
The current Bite may be powerful, but it just turns the Lerk in to another alien melee "assassin" class, beside Skulk and Fade. Unfortunately, the Lerk does not shine in that role, as the Skulk is more expandable, and the Fade is less risky and more powerful in that role.
I have to go with the Shotgun Spike camp on this debate. At least the Lerk will then have its own unique role.
I'm still not sure about this myself. Skulks that stay alive to keep attacking are able to deal 'damage over time', just like a hypothetical lerk that doesn't use bite/spores.
Making an attack deal initial damage followed by "free" damage introduces all kinds of complexity. The fact that the damage of the DoT effect can be called "free" means it has to be paired with some kind of harsh penalty. In our case that's high risk entering melee range and low initial damage. This muddles things, so to speak - is the point of biting to deal the initial damage or the follow-up damage? Is it both? When would it ever be appropriate to do both, in terms of risk taken flying up close, rate of damage vs likelihood of meds arriving and so on? It just seems wrong. It's obviously powerful right now, because the 'numbers' are wrong - when those get tweaked to a perceived fair level, you'll have a weaker attack that is still just as complicated.
Whenever performance gets a big improvement from LUA changes etc, it would be a good idea to paste in the old shotgun spike code and try "that" lerk for a few days. I think it would work better while playing almost the exact same.
<a href="https://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/_209_lerk_bite_damage" target="_blank">https://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...erk_bite_damage</a>
This would encourage lerks to use the gas and fly around a lot, when your lerk starts biting it stops using the spores.
It goes from being a partial support to all out attack unit which has definately changed how the games played (which is not always a bad thing).
The DoT does not make the lerk fly in and out of battle it just stays and munches like a skulk would...just with a kicker in the bite.
If bites going to be useful in later game then umbra really needs to be bombed and not a projectile (I dont need an umbra cloud 5 metres in front of me...I need one around me as I try to attack an extractor/pg/rine etc or behind me as I flee from some rines).
Umbra always made sense as a bombed weapon and not a projectile.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118519" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118519</a>
ontopic: i'd prefer less immediate damage from bite, but i'd leave the DoT alone. its nice flying in for one bite per marine. keeps you alive, harasses the hell out of the marines / drains resources / delays them.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118519" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118519</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've made a bug report with the information in that thread. Thanks.
Ignoring this bug, I like the direction that the lerk takes with this DOT based bite. Contrary to other claims I have seen no single lerk that does not use spore anymore. Every lerk that engaged me, spored first to circle me unseen and than he bit me in the ass. The low energy needed for bite allows use of spores anyway.
If the damage calculation gets fixed, the lerk could fit his support / harass role even better.
-Edited by Align</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Nice overpowered edit :) i will whine about Op post now :) like ###### say lerk is OP
--Cory
The lerk in the test build is no good against structures, with bite at least, because the rate has been reduced a lot. But spikes are still pretty good once you get more abilities.
My impression so far in this build is that Bite is definitely to strong. I've waited with anticipation to see a good lerk buff. But I admit something is certainly off with it in 209.
First: If the emphasis is to get the lerk into close range. Well, bite certainly does that. It is very snappy when you are chasing down a marine, almost rapid fire bites. I think the speed of bite needs to be reduced. Lerk should be more of a "peck" or "finesse" bite. Could a sort of "Charge up" bite be interesting? Charging for up to three second would yield a harder strike while spamming bite would be lighter fast attacks? The skulk can be the snappy rabid one leaping into the fray and tearing them to pieces. The Lerk would be the opportunist and harasser, with the assists. Swooping in and out with a strong single nip.
The poison is something I really like. If the bite damage is reduced (which I would be ok with), a stronger neurotoxin might be appropriate... The lerk could be a good way to strip marine health while leaving their armor intact with the poison bite and the gas spores.
Second: I think lerk poison bite should be the second upgrade ability. Spikes should be the default at start. Matchups right now with lerk bite / early marine, the marine is going to die, maybe even two or three of his buddies too. With spikes you can 1v1 marines and it is satisfying to both (as good shooting will drive off a lerk, and nimble lerk can quickly wittle down and kill a solo rifle marine). Each can get their hits in, with still the favor towards lerk. As it is a 30 res lifeform. As marines get advanced upgrades, the poison would be a good counter to the increasing armor.
Now reading this thread there maybe some calculation issues with damage and a change in shotgun spread. I don't mind testing the current lerk and hopefully it turns out that there is just a error in some of the code.
Lerks should not be a rambo class like they are now. I think the point of poison bite it to get in and get the bite then leave allowing the marine to lose health then coming back in to finish it off. Does this ever happen? No... because it isn't needed. A single marine cannot kill a lerk so no point for him to play safely and skillfully.
You have to be really careful with this one - it's already tremendously annoying to kill RTs as a lerk because of the spike adrenaline change, and it IS something the lerk should be able to do if nobody stops you....
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool thats probably fair. I think a slow Rate of Fire would be a better change honestly.
With the changes to bite speed and the shotgun fix.. I was getting torn up in the PT with the same amount of armor + cara. Then again we'll just have to wait and see how it fairs when released.
The armor buff was more towards the performance boosts that are coming soon; can potentially mean that it's OP in this patch, but negated in the next.
I agree with this. I also think that the lerk didn't need more health, he just needs his old speed back.
When shotguns are viable again the lerk won't be able to go freely into melee range. A skilled marine will take him down easily.
now there is no way a lerk could pick up a marine, but left4dead's jockey... so a lerk could sort of steer the marine over a clif or just aim him the other way (gl spammer)
just a thought
might be pretty funny... i just picture a bird flaping around franticly on a dude's face... or a turtle in a man's beard... wait.. damn drugs
:)
prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
☻☻
Also, I do believe I'm quite inebriated..hic!
2nd warning<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
it's difficult when I can't aim at lerks without stripping down the game's graphics to an absurd level, in a game where half the entertainment value comes from the quality of the graphics and art direction
sometime i play lerk and get flash lerked like in ns1 by sg and so son and i never whine because im low skilled i just try to be better....... do the same
and play in lwo level of graphic s like the old use of r_mode unlit and get mp_consistancy going up plz UWE :)
+1