Lerk bite FAR to powerful

AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
So with the inclusion with Lerk bite, you've made the lerk OP... It can shoot from afar, fly away, zig zag to make it hard to hit, make it hard to see, make you have DOT in spores, AND now can bite you.

The lerk is now in the action too much. After about 5 games, the lerks just fly up to you bite you twice and you die. Congrats you now have a flying skulk. Every lerk I saw didnt bother flying around, or crop dusting, or shooting, they now fly to you, bite you twice, you die, and they fly to next one.

There needs to be some trade off, they are far too hard to hit, to much escape potential, and do far too much damage now. What is their counter? There needs to be a trade off for getting up close and personal, right now it doesn't seem to be so.

Lerk bite death is too sudden. The way the notes made it sound, you get a DOT poison. They may bite you for a miniscule amount of health, but over 10 seconds you may tick down 10 health per second. The poison effect doesn't even happen, the initial bite is just too strong.

I know this is the first revision, but if you are dead set on adding this in, it needs to have a trade off, not be the primary weapon or if it is, they trade something, and make it not hit as hard initially and make it more of a DOT.
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Comments

  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940466:date=May 31 2012, 12:03 PM:name=Alchemda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alchemda @ May 31 2012, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940466"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be some trade off, they are far too hard to hit, to much escape potential, and do far too much damage now. What is their counter? There needs to be a trade off for getting up close and personal, right now it doesn't seem to be so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You mean like having to fly straight into a shotgun and get a point-blank blast to your face?
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940470:date=May 31 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ May 31 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean like having to fly straight into a shotgun and get a point-blank blast to your face?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You mean having to shoot that lerk three times at point blank range and it still flying away? It can kill you before that you know.
  • SkiTSkiT Join Date: 2012-05-22 Member: 152452Members
    edited May 2012
    +1 too much damage and resist for really hard hitbox..
  • AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940471:date=May 31 2012, 11:08 AM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ May 31 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean having to shoot that lerk three times at point blank range and it still flying away? It can kill you before that you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    exactly... if they are going to do that, they need to have to be careful and do it discreetely. As it stands, they take far too much damage, and have too much escape for such a in your face ability.
  • weezlweezl Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    lerk bite should probly be 40 (or maybe even 30) damage to emphasize the poison DOT more, as it is now the direct bite dmg is by far the primary effect.
  • AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940476:date=May 31 2012, 11:16 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 31 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lerk bite should probly be 40 (or maybe even 30) damage to emphasize the poison DOT more, as it is now the direct bite dmg is by far the primary effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    QFT
  • fenrir1179fenrir1179 Join Date: 2011-11-05 Member: 131263Members
    or maybe the bite has a long cooldown? so if the lerk misses he's gotta have a plan to bail quick.. or get squished....
    and what if marines could get a phosphorus pellet upgrade for their shotguns? so like the flamethrower it would dot as well..
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940476:date=May 31 2012, 11:16 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 31 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lerk bite should probly be 40 (or maybe even 30) damage to emphasize the poison DOT more, as it is now the direct bite dmg is by far the primary effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I would say even lower. Biting someone repeatably should be discouraged unless they are on their last legs.

    The poison is already so powerful that bite damage itself should be very low.
  • Sr LanceSr Lance Rhythm is a Lancer Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32862Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Current damage for Lerk bite:

    kLerkBiteDamage = 50
    kBitePoisonDamage = 4 // per second
    kLerkBiteEnergyCost = 5
    kLerkBiteDamageType = kDamageType.Light

    # Skulk Damage - Also consider the damage ratio between Skulk + Lerk
    kBiteDamage = 75
    kBiteDamageType = kDamageType.Normal

    Lerk does 4 poison damage every second until you are on 5hp, medpacks will stop the poison.

    The Lerks primary attack is no longer ranged, meaning the Lerk has to get up close and be exposed for longer periods of time which makes it all the more vulnerable. With Lerk costing 30pres I would not expect a marine we little upgrades to win in a battle, which brings us to another issue the shotgun. The shotguns cone of fire has changed to give off more spread, this is currently being looked into and will be addressed.

    I still believe the current HP/A ratio is fine and that the fault is with the shotgun at the moment and possibly some players performance.

    Previous HP:
    125 / 30
    Cara 125 / 60

    Now:
    125 / 50
    Cara 125 / 80

    Another factor might be to consider is the amount of starting res, which allows players to go Lerk within 1-2 minutes of the game.
  • AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
    Seems like the consensus is the bite should be in the game, but lower initial bite damage to health and put the emphasis on the DOT. And make the cooldown not the same as a skulk bite, maybe half a skulk bite time till next bite.
  • AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
    I like the concept of the poison, and the medpack stopping it, but how often can you get a commander in a PUG game to drop a med pack for you.. NEVER. There's gotta be a way for the marine to do something about the poison. Waiting on a commander while you sit there with no aliens around and your health is ticking down, just not a good or fun gameplay mechanic.

    What may help commanders notice "Hey this person is lerk poisoned" is put a Dripping green poison above their head in commander view? Rather than.. need medpack.. need medpack.. need medpack..
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    I agree with the comments that the Lerk's bite is very powerful. I would drastically reduce the damage of the bite to make it a token amount (kind of like the basic bile attack of the Gorge) but give it a DOT poison effect that continues over time. So - the idea there is that if you do manage to land a bite, the marine WILL die eventually if they don't get a medpack or visit the armory.

    To my mind this would bring the Lerk back to its status as a creature which denies the progress of the marines, rather than a front line troop. I think in a few days we will be seeing some excellent users of the 209 Lerk, turning it into the next Blink/Stab...
  • AlchemdaAlchemda Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25942Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940525:date=May 31 2012, 01:16 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ May 31 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with the comments that the Lerk's bite is very powerful. I would drastically reduce the damage of the bite to make it a token amount (kind of like the basic bile attack of the Gorge) but give it a DOT poison effect that continues over time. So - the idea there is that if you do manage to land a bite, the marine WILL die eventually if they don't get a medpack or visit the armory.

    To my mind this would bring the Lerk back to its status as a creature which denies the progress of the marines, rather than a front line troop. I think in a few days we will be seeing some excellent users of the 209 Lerk, turning it into the next Blink/Stab...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yup
  • WolpertingerWolpertinger Join Date: 2011-12-24 Member: 138958Members
    I am completly convinced that the stats of the Lerk Bite are the result of rolling a dice.
  • rhombusrhombus Lerk Queen Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2012
    Wait for next patch as quite a few tweaks will be implemented. We only had a certain amount of time to play with the bite/some other changes.. usually happens when you have a schedule to keep.

    We do, however, appreciate the feedback from these changes.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    The high Rate of fire is what should be fixed imo, just lower it and it is good. As for dying in 2 shotgun blasts, no way a 30 res lifeform should be easily countered by a 20 res shotty.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    The suggestions made so far in this thread would make the lerk completely useless.

    Personally, I don't understand why Lerk bite was brought back instead of properly implementing burst-fire (!) or shotgun spikes.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I dont think much is needed 2 fix the lerk mostly, just cap the poison damage to 20 max or something and revert the armor increase.

    I would like to see a small energy cost added for flapping however to promote better play.
  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2012
    The bite is good at the start of the game, but it's countered pretty well with armor upgrades and shotguns. Armor 2 marines require something like 5 bites while they only need two shotgun shots to finish you off. The lerk is pretty much a sitting duck when it collides into you for that chewing. It's only like 25 level 0 rifle bullets as well to kill one. The DOT isn't a problem either really if you've a commander that's awake. The amount of medspam you can do is pretty ridiculous right now.

    When the exo comes out, I don't see the lerk being very useful anymore in the end game. Spikes and bite both are poor against high armor. You don't want to risk 30 res to go bite an exo marine a single time.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2012
    There is nothing wrong with the initial bite damage.
    The only problem is the DOT. Which is quite silly for a melee attack. Especially since the DOT cant kill you.
    You put your life on the line every time you go for a single bite.
    With the DOT, the lerk seems to be supposed to bite marines once, get out, get back in for the kill.
    If the marine gets a medpack, you put your life on the life for nothing. And as we all know, medpacks are FREE, atm.
    Starting off with 2 melee abilities makes the lerk very weak, and unable to compete against decent marines.
    The lerk have lost it's harassing/support role in early game(spikes/ranged spores).
    I see two solutions to this:
    1. remove the DOT from bite and make lerk spores ranged(projectile).
    2. remove bite completely and make spikes primary weapon, and re-add shotgun spikes for burst damage(2nd tier ability)
    I like the first solution the most.
  • GadxGadx Join Date: 2003-03-22 Member: 14788Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Lerk bite isn't the issue, its the shotgun damage.

    Another possible solution could be to add an energy cost on flapping again.
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1940624:date=May 31 2012, 06:23 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ May 31 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ^Agreed.
  • 0+0=00+0=0 Join Date: 2012-03-23 Member: 149263Members
    edited May 2012
    Eh.. too long of a post..

    TL/dR

    Skulk spends 30 res on Red Bull and turns into a Lerk. I dun like it much.. I think it boils down to is Lerk gonna be a

    1) DOT based attacker

    2) flying skulk
  • James.OllerheadJames.Ollerhead Join Date: 2012-04-27 Member: 151174Members
    I think that two changes would really help balance lerk

    1. Initial bite dmg is too much, and the poison is overshadowed by skulk-like lerks going in and getting off multiple attack. Make the base damage something stupid low (around 20 damage)

    2. The fact that no matter what poison will bring you to 5 hp is a pain in the ass. It should be a static DOT (does say 60-80 damage), that WILL KILL the marine if he does not go back. But if he gets bit once at full health, he can still run around with some left (~20-40 health)

    This would make it so we don't have "flying skulks" and make lerks a differnt playstyle (closer to what I think the developers envisioned). HP/Armor does seem a bit too high, but I think that would have to be adjusted after these changes.

    -Just some suggestions. Your opinions?
  • Bloodshot12Bloodshot12 Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152578Members
    Hit detection and damage needs a buff or lerk needs less heath, I was moving up with a squad of 6 marines, 3 had shotguns, and a single lerk with carapace took out the entire squad with bite because the hits either didn't register, and when they did it would move so fast we would barely be able to damage it before it could escape and heal
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    I really like the shotgun spike idea proposed earlier, or some other area effect style weapon, as opposed to the bite. I think the bite is staying though, given the momentum it has.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'd rather not see the Lerk become a flying skulk. I'm fine with lerk bite, but wasn't the damage way below 50 in NS1? I thought it was actually lower per bite than the skulk, but fired faster. (a real risk since that energy might be needed to fly away)
    IIRC, the strategy in NS1 was to gas /umbra as you flew in, then make the kill with bite. In NS2, though, it seems like you need to be close to bite, close to gas, close to do anything. Isn't lerk supposed to be ranged support?
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    Can someone explain to me the purpose of Damage Over Time? I want to deal damage NOW, not next week...
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    Wilson, what I like about damage over time is that it affects how the marine acts. It's like how people run to get out of the lerk's gas cloud - they know they're taking damage while they are standing in it. If they know they're poisoned and they'll die without a medkit or an armory to heal them, then they will either run to the armory or start begging for a medkit.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    i think the lerk has taken completely the wrong direction in its current implementation. it's no longer area denial/harass/support and now just another move-around-really-quick-get-in-your-face-and-chew-it-off lifeform. the same as skulk and fade.
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