cysts cost energy again?

weezlweezl Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited May 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Now every game starts with carapace upgrade 100%.
Where's the design doc tradeoffs?

Suggestion:
Cysts cost TR.
Hive abilities cost TR (mist, and make it AOE again).
Buildings keep costing TR. Please don't make skulks drop free buildings like gorges.
edit: Also drifters cost TR again (imo 1TR, not 2 this time).
Make dropping hives REQUIRE A PRESENCE; infestation/gorge/drifter! This is NS not a 'you sunk my battleship' guessing game!

This way you get TRUE tradeoff between tech/expand/economy/scouting.
Right it's mostly a joke in the start and completely a joke past early game.



Don't get me started on the onos...
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Comments

  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
    agree. Real-time-strategy is all about resource, and if the one most important thing 'Cyst' cost only some energy, which is not related to amount of how many resource production aliens have, is bit problematic. All the Khammanders are spamming cyst again in build 208, because they lose nothing, just gain energy constantly and can also drop cysts constantly. I really hate cyst-spamming and that's one of the two things that i cannot understand why UWE doesn't handle it. (another one is alien resource system, which causes even 6 min. onos)
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  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    +1
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  • SkiTSkiT Join Date: 2012-05-22 Member: 152452Members
    I agree, energy cost for cyst it's a mistake... Every Aliens comm spam cyst and i hate that too.
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  • bLink`bLink` Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146506Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Commander can just spam cyst everywhere so quick.
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  • TheIcarusKidTheIcarusKid Join Date: 2012-03-23 Member: 149258Members
    One of the biggest problem for TRes cysts is how easily the aliens can get reslocked. Perhaps they should cost 1 TRes instead of 2, and keep the current smaller range?
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  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1938229:date=May 22 2012, 09:46 PM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 22 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the biggest problem for TRes cysts is how easily the aliens can get reslocked. Perhaps they should cost 1 TRes instead of 2, and keep the current smaller range?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe they should give gorges the ability to put down infestation, possibly unconnected infestation, in remote areas, without using mini cysts.
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  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    we already tried cyst for energy and it screwed aliens because marines would keep rushing the cyst chain at the beginning of the game and cut the cyst chains, meaning the alien expansion was significantly slowed. this wouldn't be such a big deal if gorges still had mini cysts, but now that they are gone the aliens will get straight shafted.
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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b>
    <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
    1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud
    2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation
    3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    In theory, the Alien commander should be able to strike a balance between the three that suits play style and team strategy. For example, if the Aliens went for a triple-extractor turtle strategy, the commander may focus more on option <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->with some emphasis on <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, with little use of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.

    Alternatively, a commander wishing to execute a lerk rush could heavily favour <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to support the rush and <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed it up.

    Right now, cyst spam seems to be the order of the day. Is it possible this is due to three reasons?

    1. We are currently not experienced with enzyme cloud, and therefore option <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    2. We are not realising the benefits of <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed tech, and therefore it is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    3. The balance of energy cost and effectiveness of each of the three choices is not quite right yet, messing with the tradeoffs and leading to the overuse of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Before hearing this explanation, I was a cyst-energy sceptic. Now, I'm very excited about the strategic depth it could open up. What do you guys reckon?
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  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 02:49 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.
    You guys talking about cyst spamming are really being hyperbole. The system allows nice tradeoffs and the timings can be easily tweaked for whatever reason e.g. 4:10 augmentation might be a bit too early but thats a balance discussion. Cysts costing energy makes 2nd hive meaningful and fast hive an option. If anything the new energy system has really opened up kham strategy and provided alot more different viable options/build orders.

    As for enzyme mist. Its just much too micro intensive given its short range/duration and an unreliable and unresponsive UI. I'll probably try to use it alot myself but its probably too much of a headache trying to drag select drifters and but having it select alien players instead etc. I'm sure people will start to use it more, but whether its worth the 20 energy anywhere before 5 minutes is probably debatable.

    <!--QuoteBegin-"whee"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("whee")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We already tried cyst for energy and it screwed aliens because marines would keep rushing the cyst chain at the beginning of the game and cut the cyst chains, meaning the alien expansion was significantly slowed. this wouldn't be such a big deal if gorges still had mini cysts, but now that they are gone the aliens will get straight shafted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Killing cysts should be meaningful. I also honestly don't see this as being any worse than cysts costing tres. If you don't have map presence to defend, then i don't see the problem with it.

    <!--QuoteBegin-"Classic319"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Classic319")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Real-time-strategy is all about resource, and if the one most important thing 'Cyst' cost only some energy, which is not related to amount of how many resource production aliens have, is bit problematic. All the Khammanders are spamming cyst again in build 208, because they lose nothing, just gain energy constantly and can also drop cysts constantly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wrong. The biggest and most fundamental resource in any RTS is time. Energy is needed for resource production and expansion - it is very much related. You want to cyst that 4th harvestor, you're going to pay heavily in mist and augmentation timing. There is no cyst spam untill late game - this is the only flaw of the energy system and given the late timing of the spam is not a very big flaw. Energy is a resource. Just like team resources is a resource. You want to expand your energy production, you get a 2nd hive. If energy is regening too fast leading to 'free' cysts that cost nothing, thats a balance flaw and not a systematic flaw.

    <!--QuoteBegin-weezl+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now every game starts with carapace upgrade 100%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Even if this is the case (which i personally don't think it is), the problem is not because cysts cost energy. It is a case of one upgrade being overly dominant over the others or because commander's havn't yet learnt how to use whips and/or shades.
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  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited May 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. We are currently not experienced with enzyme cloud, and therefore option 1 is being neglected in favour of 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    1. Drifters are too expensive, not worth the energy costs.
    2. They don't help expand. Meaning I'm not getting resource towers up faster, thus slowing down the rate of pres for my team, therefore delaying Onos presence on the map. This wouldn't be such a big deal if the other Alien lifeforms were actually useful. But that's for another discussion.
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. We are not realising the benefits of 3 to speed tech, and therefore it is being neglected in favour of 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    1. There is only one useful "tech" besides Augmentation and that's Carapace. Silence is decent, but not worth taking over Carapace. Cloak is just god awful and is completely useless. Doesn't take long to get Carapace so I'm not going to waste energy on speeding up build/research time (it's very miniscule anyway).
    2. Augmentation is quick on it's own.
    3. The speed increase is miniscule.
    4. Doesn't help expand.
    5. You need tres to research Augmentation anyway. If you're not expanding, you're starving and so is your team.
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. The balance of energy cost and effectiveness of each of the three choices is not quite right yet, messing with the tradeoffs and leading to the overuse of 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The only way it will ever change from expansion > misting > drifters is if misting and drifters completely cheese the game and destroy balance.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if this is the case (which i personally don't think it is), the problem is not because cysts cost energy. It is a case of one upgrade being overly dominant over the others or because commander's havn't yet learnt how to use whips and/or shades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To make whips viable, I need a shade to cloak them or they're useless. To make a shade, I need a shade hive. By taking a shade hive, I've now gimped my team because cloak is completely useless and silence is "decent", but not worth giving extra armor up for. People always call for carapace and regeneration, especially with two hives, but can give to rats asses about silence and cloak.

    Edit: And from what I've heard about Shift hive and tech (Celerity and Hyper-Mutation), Carapace will continue to be the number 1 upgrade for Aliens.
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  • cryptcrypt Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28091Members, Constellation
    Hey Strayan, thx for joining the discussion!
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of three choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't really see how making the resource infinite (only constrained by time) changes anything. It would still be the same 3 choices if the different "tech-path" would cost res! Why am I "pro" the use of res?
    <ul><li>It's easier to balance than energy-cost</li><li>The alien comm should think more about his different choices</li><li>Marines also want to destroy something that will hurt the enemy economy and not just see it rebuild for "no" cost</li><li>Expanding and keeping res-nodes matters more, energy sounds like a very static concept to me</li></ul>
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  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    edited May 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1938379:date=May 23 2012, 03:20 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ May 23 2012, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey Strayan, thx for joining the discussion!

    I don't really see how making the resource infinite (only constrained by time) changes anything. It would still be the same 3 choices if the different "tech-path" would cost res! Why am I "pro" the use of res?
    <ul><li>It's easier to balance than energy-cost</li><li>The alien comm should think more about his different choices</li><li>Marines also want to destroy something that will hurt the enemy economy and not just see it rebuild for "no" cost</li><li>Expanding and keeping res-nodes matters more, energy sounds like a very static concept to me</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Except for the fact that all it takes is a couple of Aliens to swap out of the Kham position to make your points rather moot.
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    edited May 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 05:49 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 05:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b>
    <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
    1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud
    2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation
    3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    ...

    Before hearing this explanation, I was a cyst-energy sceptic. Now, I'm very excited about the strategic depth it could open up. What do you guys reckon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You are on the right track, but you don't go far enough. What you describe is what I call "trading economy for tech or army" which is the <i>very basic</i> of rts games.

    What does ensure that you need to choose between economy and tech and not get everything at the same time ? The fact that all these tings cost resources from the same res pool.

    You call three mutually exclusive choices strategic depth, how about having 10 mutually exclusive choices, wouldn't be that the most awesome strategic depth ?

    How can we get 10 mutually exclusive choices instead of only three ? Having more things on the same res pool maybe ?

    How does having three parallel res pools (pres, tres and energy) does affect the number of mutually exclusive choices, and thus strategic depth. Shouldn't we add a fourth res pool ?

    *

    Anyway, I'm not against some use of energy, but I think it would be cleaner to have all structures (cysts, harvesters, crags, ..) and NPC's units (drifters, arcs, ..) to cost tres and to keep energy for temporary abilities.
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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make dropping hives REQUIRE A PRESENCE; infestation/gorge/drifter! This is NS not a 'you sunk my battleship' guessing game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This.
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  • cryptcrypt Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28091Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1938383:date=May 23 2012, 05:27 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 23 2012, 05:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except for the fact that all it takes is a couple of Aliens to swap out of the Kham position to make your points rather moot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Eh, I was obviously talking about team-res, not personal res. I have seriously no idea where you get that from.
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  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1938413:date=May 23 2012, 09:03 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ May 23 2012, 09:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh, I was obviously talking about team-res, not personal res. I have seriously no idea where you get that from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh. You were serious about cysts costing Tres. I was just hoping that you were actually talking about Pres, because tying cysts to Tres is absolutely the dumbest thing anyone could even suggest.

    Lets make power-nodes cost 10 Tres every time Marines want to repair a destroyed one.
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  • cryptcrypt Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28091Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1938457:date=May 23 2012, 12:15 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 23 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh. You were serious about cysts costing Tres. I was just hoping that you were actually talking about Pres, because tying cysts to Tres is absolutely the dumbest thing anyone could even suggest.

    Lets make power-nodes cost 10 Tres every time Marines want to repair a destroyed one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes I was serious. It's getting suggested by a lot of other player aswell. By calling it "dumbest thing anyone could even suggest" you just showed everyone your immaturity and lack of understanding the game. I don't even want to go so far and explain why your example is bad/doesn't make sense.
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  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1938458:date=May 23 2012, 12:36 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ May 23 2012, 12:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes I was serious. It's getting suggested by a lot of other player aswell. By calling it "dumbest thing anyone could even suggest" you just showed everyone your immaturity and lack of understanding the game. I don't even want to go so far and explain why your example is bad/doesn't make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm mainly play the aliens. 9 out of 10 games I'm the alien kham.

    You don't want to because if you do, those same reasons can be applied to why cysts costing Tres is a horrendous idea. Whether you like it or not, cysts and power nodes share the same underlying functions.
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  • cake.cake. Join Date: 2012-01-12 Member: 140165Members
    I have yet to see a single use of the drifter enzyme cloud, or have yet to use it myself. It is very unintuitive, very unresponsive. Using it for an early attack as pointed out by Hugh, would mean that the drifter would have to travel all the way to the marine base and etc. I don't know how it is in the competitive scene though.
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  • cryptcrypt Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28091Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1938461:date=May 23 2012, 12:56 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 23 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whether you like it or not, cysts and power nodes share the same underlying functions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh, I would absolutely agree to that! I think the point is, that both cysts and power-nodes give a bit of (indirect) map-control. The question now if this "map-control" is powerful enough to justify a cost for it.

    I would argue that it is. You should get an advantage for expanding and it should hurt if your cysts/power-nodes get destroyed. Maybe it's because I just don't like the idea of getting things "for free", cause it shows the thing you build is not worth much and just a necessity. So yea, maybe your example isn't so bad, but 10 res sounds a bit over the top.
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Power-nodes should cost t-res obviously.

    The main problem is that it would give the skulks a good reason to bite them, which is not the most exiting activity. I prefer like it is now; everybody ignoring power-nodes once built, so they are a minimal nuisance to the gameplay.
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  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 12:49 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 12:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b>
    <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
    1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud
    2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation
    3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    In theory, the Alien commander should be able to strike a balance between the three that suits play style and team strategy. For example, if the Aliens went for a triple-extractor turtle strategy, the commander may focus more on option <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->with some emphasis on <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, with little use of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.

    Alternatively, a commander wishing to execute a lerk rush could heavily favour <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to support the rush and <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed it up.

    Right now, cyst spam seems to be the order of the day. Is it possible this is due to three reasons?

    1. We are currently not experienced with enzyme cloud, and therefore option <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    2. We are not realising the benefits of <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed tech, and therefore it is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    3. The balance of energy cost and effectiveness of each of the three choices is not quite right yet, messing with the tradeoffs and leading to the overuse of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Before hearing this explanation, I was a cyst-energy sceptic. Now, I'm very excited about the strategic depth it could open up. What do you guys reckon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    all these choices already exist under the t-res umbrella. you know what costs energy in starcraft? support abilities. you know what doesn't? infrastructure and units - aka cysts and drifters.
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  • weezlweezl Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1938523:date=May 24 2012, 12:19 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 24 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>all these choices already exist under the t-res umbrella.</b> you know what costs energy in starcraft? support abilities. you know what doesn't? infrastructure and units - aka cysts and drifters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    BAM!
    What I wanted to reply!

    Also, Hugh and UWE, my first sentence in the OP remains unanswered...
    You removed TR cost tradeoff between expanding and teching!
    How is it better with having [tradeoff between cyst-expand/mist-augment/drifter-scout] SEPARATED from [tradeoff between tech/economy/expand-hives] ???
    The starting TR goes to cara shell RIGHT AWAY then 1-2 RT:s.
    You might aswell make carashell autospawn like the IP!
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  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    With the inclusion of offensive scout drifters, the better energy model and the kham changes, alien comm is the best its ever been. Please don't change much!
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1938363:date=May 23 2012, 06:49 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ May 23 2012, 06:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Today someone explained this to me from a different angle - That was that energy provides the commander with a resource independent ability to make one of <b>three choices.</b>
    <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
    1 - Support the offense, by creating <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->drifters<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to use enzyme cloud
    2 - Expand, by creating <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->cysts<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to spread infestation
    3 - Tech, by using <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->mist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed evolutions of lifeforms and upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->

    In theory, the Alien commander should be able to strike a balance between the three that suits play style and team strategy. For example, if the Aliens went for a triple-extractor turtle strategy, the commander may focus more on option <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->with some emphasis on <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, with little use of <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.

    Alternatively, a commander wishing to execute a lerk rush could heavily favour <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to support the rush and <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed it up.

    Right now, cyst spam seems to be the order of the day. Is it possible this is due to three reasons?

    1. We are currently not experienced with enzyme cloud, and therefore option <!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->1 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    2. We are not realising the benefits of <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> to speed tech, and therefore it is being neglected in favour of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    3. The balance of energy cost and effectiveness of each of the three choices is not quite right yet, messing with the tradeoffs and leading to the overuse of <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->2.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Before hearing this explanation, I was a cyst-energy sceptic. Now, I'm very excited about the strategic depth it could open up. What do you guys reckon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What Yuuki and others already said...
    The more different res-pool dependencies you got, the less real options you have.
    The idea isn't bad at all. But the devs used the wrong objects to put them together in this energy-pool.
    You will never want to sacrifice expansion over short timed abilities. Because expansion gives you more res. More res gives you more hives and more hives gives you more energy.

    Put cysts back to tRes so you really have to choose between teching, expansion and economy.
    Use energy only for short time abilities like mist, enzyme cloud. (And use only one resource pool of energy. Not one for every building.)

    In a perfect world tRes is for:<ul><li>cysts and drifters -> expansion</li><li>every kham-building -> economy</li><li>every upgrade -> tech</li></ul>
    and energy is for every ability:<ul><li>cyst explosion, umbra, ... -> push defense</li><li>mist, ... -> push tech</li><li>whip bilebomb, enzyme cloud, ... -> push attack</li></ul>
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    Infestation "density" (or whatever you want to call it) from the cyst prototyping videos last year hasn't really been implemented yet. When and if that kicks in, it may change the whole cyst placing game.
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  • weezlweezl Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=May 24 2012:name=@NS2 (twitter))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (@NS2 (twitter) @ May 24 2012)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thinking long and hard about the role of structure energy in NS2. Some players find it confusing. I find it critical. Hmm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=1938523:date=May 24 2012, 12:19 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 24 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all these choices already exist under the t-res umbrella. <u><b>you know what costs energy in starcraft? support abilities. you know what doesn't? infrastructure and units - aka cysts and drifters.</b></u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    QFT #2!

    There you are Charlie, crystal clear imo!


    ...ofc in NS2's case mist should be considered a TR ability:
    canon/backstory wise: it takes resources to create nutrients.
    gameplay mechanic wise: you sacrifice resources to speed up your already made resource investment.
    It's like assigning more workers in AoE2 - the building will go up faster, but additional workers use additional resources so it will cost more in total.
    You're trading in resources for time, a perfect tradeoff!!!
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  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. We are not realising the benefits of 3 to speed tech, and therefore it is being neglected in favour of 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would argue that with the huge drop in 'base maturation time' this patch, misting has just become a lot less important compared to the previous patch. As a result, 3. too is being neglected and we are only really seeing energy being spent on cysts.

    I think cysts costing energy is not a bad idea per se, but as with everything, the trade-offs need to function properly.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Ok, so we went back to the energy model but why can you place cysts instantly without waiting for the previous ones to mature? That mechanic seemed really good to me.
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  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1939010:date=May 26 2012, 12:30 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ May 26 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, so we went back to the energy model but why can you place cysts instantly without waiting for the previous ones to mature? That mechanic seemed really good to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Because it would take ages to expand if you had to wait for the first one to mature.

    I don't mind if you could only place cysts on top of infestation and expand outward like that.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
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